Bizarre Segregation In Georgia
Sara Corbett writes in The New York Times about a vile tradition in the South -- the racially segregated prom. At Montgomery County High School, there's a black prom and a white prom:
Earlier this month, on the Friday night of the white prom, Kera Nobles, a senior who is black, and six of her black classmates drove over to the local community center where it was being held. Standing amid a crowd of about 80 parents, siblings and grandparents, they snapped pictures and whooped appreciatively as their white friends -- blow-dried, boutonniered and glittering in a way that only high-school seniors can -- did their "senior walk," parading in elegant pairs into the prom. "We got stared at a little, being there," said one black student, "but it wasn't too bad."After the last couple were announced, after they watched the white people's father-daughter dance and then, along with the other bystanders, were ushered by chaperones out the door, Kera and her friends piled into a nearby KFC to eat. Whatever elation they felt for their dressed-up classmates was quickly wearing off.
"My best friend is white," said one senior girl, a little glumly. "She's in there. She's real cool, but I don't understand. If they can be in there, why can't everybody else?"
The seven teenagers -- a mix of girls and boys -- slowly worked their way through two buckets of fried chicken. They cracked jokes about the white people's prom ("I feel bad for them! Their prom is lame!"). They puzzled merrily over white girls' devotion both to tanning beds ("You don't like black people, but you're working your hardest to get as brown as I am!") and also to the very boys who were excluded from the dance ("Half of those girls, when they get home, they're gonna text a black boy"). They mused about whether white parents really believed that by keeping black people out of the prom, it would keep them out of their children's lives ("You think there aren't going to be black boys at college?"). And finally, more somberly, they questioned their white friends' professed helplessness in the face of their parents' prejudice ("You're 18 years old! You're old enough to smoke, drive, do whatever else you want to. Why aren't you able to step up and say, 'I want to have my senior prom with the people I'm graduating with?'").
In the slide show within the NYT piece, one white girl's mother argues that it's always been this way for the kids at the school, and should remain this way. Disgusting. Ugly.
And what's particularly disturbing is that the racism is right there under the surface, which makes it no uglier -- in fact, to me, it makes it more disturbing.
Well, let's investigate this a bit further...
It's ok for women to have women's spas and women's sports clubs, etc. Any why not? One does understand the motivation. There are blacks-only organizations as well. So why it is that it is suddenly "sexist" to have men's only organizations and "racist" if it's white's only?
The answer is not to forbid any organization to exclude anyone. We have a constitutional right to freedom of association. Furthermore, it simply makes practical sense. You do not want autistic kids in AP science classes, nor do you want able-bodied athletes competing in the Special Olympics.
Where do you draw the line, and how do you justify this decision?
bradley13 at May 24, 2009 1:56 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/05/24/bizarre_segrega.html#comment-1650011">comment from bradley13No one's stopping these people from having their segregated proms -- obviously. That isn't the question. I find it ugly to separate people by race.
Amy Alkon at May 24, 2009 2:02 AM
Lots of colleges have black only dorms and clubs. Is that ugly too or is it just when white people do it?
sean at May 24, 2009 4:53 AM
African-Americans often choose to segregate themselves deliberately.
There was an unofficial, but well-financed and -attended, "black prom" at the college I attended in New England.
And for Homecoming, the African-American students got together and picked a "couple of color" to vote for en masse for the homecoming king & queen. With the other votes split among various candidates, the African-American candidates usually won.
No one publicly questioned their motives for doing these things.
PinkoPerforator at May 24, 2009 6:17 AM
So, because some college kids choose to join segregated frats or sororities, it's okay for the schools and parents to decide they can't have one prom for the whole school, no matter what the kids would prefer?
The fact that some gyms are making some money off the fact that some women would rather not have men around while they're exercising justifies telling black kids they can't attend the white prom?
There *is* a difference between having a choice of gyms and being told you *can't* go to the same prom as your girlfriend or boyfriend because of your skin color.
jen at May 24, 2009 6:27 AM
You may not know this: there are historically black-only churches in the South; I don't know if they're into the hysteria the President's pals are into because I don't go.
But churches are the safest place to call for mass political action. Their non-profit status is only at-risk vs. a poorly worded IRS rule.
Radwaste at May 24, 2009 6:52 AM
How common is this actually? I've lived in the South for the last few years and this is the only case I've ever heard of. A quick google search shows an ABC story from 2003 about a Georgia school ending this tradition and an NPR story from 2008 about a Mississippi school ending it. That one school still does it is shameful, but the article uses strategically placed weasel words:
When a journalist says "by many accounts" one should immediately ask "Really? How many? Which ones?" If there actually were "many" accounts then it would be easy for the writer to mention one or two.
Pseudonym at May 24, 2009 7:24 AM
Simple solution to this, but the students would have to do the heavy lifting. No one goes to the white prom, and everyone shows up at the black prom, where everyone is apparently welcome. Every white student should just refuse to participate in any racist function supported by their parents. They should be encouraged, even assisted, in their efforts by tenured school staff and administration, plotting the whole thing right out in the open during school hours if necessary. This is an extraordinary teachable moment, and students (teaching open-mindedness and tolerance) and school administrators (teaching the benefits of focused social activism for right causes) alike should avail themselves of it.
In case of blowback or threats to school personnel thus assisting, have a plan, vetted beforehand with the assistance of appropriate advisors, to bring in the U.S. Dept. of Labor and the ACLU to protect school personnel's employment and civil rights, respectively. Make a big show of it for the national media, too, if it comes to that. Shine a lot of light into these dark, roach-infested corners.
White students need to stand their ground on this, en masse. Just be stubborn like teens know how to be. After the first year, two things would happen. The white parents would lose interest in underwriting a segregated prom no one attended anyway. And the students, now freed of poorly attended proms, could try to prevail on the school to sponsor one unified prom.
The only reason we still have such medieval things going on in 2009 is because good people have stood by all these years and done nothing, while these "traditions" continued.
cpabroker at May 24, 2009 7:26 AM
What happens to the students that are neither white nor black? Where do the Hispanics and Asians and "other" kinds of students go? Are there none of these ethnicities in Georgia? In my Houston, Texas, high school, we would have required something around 8 different proms. And what do you do if you're from multiple racial backgrounds?
Jessica Kunkel at May 24, 2009 7:48 AM
I'm with bradley13 on this. Ugly yes, and I would imagine it's not common, I've lived in the south all my life and never heard of such a thing, or really anything even remotely approaching it. The kids obviously are tacitly approving it by going along.
If you're going to let blacks exclude whites from groups, you have to allow the opposite. And if they are going to get preferencial acceptance to schools and free airfair to conferences, they have to accept the bad as well.
momof4 at May 24, 2009 8:18 AM
It's mentioned in the story at Amy's link - and I'm hoping it will be excellent - there's an upcoming in depth HBO documentary about this particular prom, to be broadcast in July.
(I'm assuming the NYTimes did its own reporting, using the completed TV documentary as a starting point.)
Jody Tresidder at May 24, 2009 8:19 AM
"There *is* a difference between having a choice of gyms and being told you *can't* go to the same prom as your girlfriend or boyfriend because of your skin color."
Why is it ok to say "you cannot go to that gym", but not ok to say "you cannot go to that prom"? There's very little difference that I can see.
If you do find a difference, then back to my original question: where is the line? Or, if you prefer, what is the distinguishing characteristic that makes one ok and the other not?
bradley13 at May 24, 2009 8:22 AM
>>Why is it ok to say "you cannot go to that gym", but not ok to say "you cannot go to that prom"? There's very little difference that I can see.
Bradley13,
One not-so-little difference, I think, is that it's the adult parents (using the power of their wallets) imposing the segregation on behalf of their teenagers in the case of the prom?
Jody Tresidder at May 24, 2009 8:52 AM
Agree, Jody. And it would be up to the kids to rebel here.
Amy Alkon at May 24, 2009 9:07 AM
this is way easier than you guys are making it, and I don't understand how the ACLU isn't making stuff happen, but the idea is predicated on one thing:
Who is sponsoring it?
I believe if the school was sponsoring, it would have to be integrated, by law.
So, either the proms are sponsored privately to get around this, or they are skirting the law in another way.
How to fix?
The school sponsors the prom. Everybody goes. Anything else is a private party and not connected.
And then? Then we see who is paying lip service to what. My guess is that a lot of these people who leave the status quo, want it that way. Inside the school, the kids, parents and so forth. They aren't ending the tradition because they like it, even IF their boyfriend is Black. People make all sorts of contradictions in their own minds, that might surprise you.
So the difference here Badley13 is that a public school is a government entity and MUST follow discrimination law. Separate but Equal was over a long time ago. This isn't a private business. It's just that the right people have to be upset enough to sue...
SwissArmyD at May 24, 2009 9:31 AM
If it's a private party, they can invite anyone the hell the want, and don't have to invite anyone they don't want. They don't need a justification for doing so.
Having said that, the rest of us have the right to think they are idiots.
NicoleK at May 24, 2009 9:35 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/05/24/bizarre_segrega.html#comment-1650044">comment from SwissArmyDThe courts aren't the answer in every case and they aren't in this case. Kids would have to rebel and mix the proms.
Amy Alkon at May 24, 2009 9:35 AM
>>Kids would have to rebel and mix the proms.
I was thinking about this point & remembered the prom part of my kids' high school experience - none of the cynical-about-authority pupils would have been seen dead at any of the official prom events.
In fact, the diehard rebels even avoided the alternative prom too!
So maybe there's a more docile than usual mix of kids at the "traditional" segregated event, who are similarly inclined to apathy in response to the active check racism of their parents?
Jody Tresidder at May 24, 2009 10:38 AM
(Offtopic)
When Amy linked the story about the New York Times writer who went bankrupt a few days ago, no less than four commenters linked to the Megan McArdle telling. McArdle's posts began on the 15th with a compassionate tear of ink-stained commiseration for a fellow underpaid journalist; then, before our eyes, she snapped back to being a real journalist and went after the story. (Her enthusiasm for economics helped her, too.) Her fifth(?) post on the topic was made Friday.
This is probably as good as the blog scene gets for gossipy fun. Reading comments is optional; there may or may not be anything worthwhile in them, but the posts alone can carry your interest. First post here, just keep going forward.
Crid [CommentCrid@gmail.com] at May 24, 2009 12:11 PM
I just posted a comment on Clark Hoyt's blog (NYT ombudsman) criticizing them for referring to McArdle only as "a blogger" -- as the WSJ did to me. Mainstream media can be so pissy about us pajama-clad losers eating their lunch.
Amy Alkon at May 24, 2009 12:14 PM
(Back on topic–)
> When a journalist says "by many
> accounts" one should immediately
> ask "Really? How many? Which ones?"
Word, Pseudy. Make a habit of that, and NPR suddenly becomes unlistenable.
Crid [CommentCrid@gmail.com] at May 24, 2009 12:15 PM
Crid, just posted on the McArdle/Dowd thing, and the foreclosed-on econ reporter, just below:
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/05/24/ethical_standar.html
Amy Alkon at May 24, 2009 12:30 PM
This browser can only load so many windows at a time........!
Crid [CommentCrid@gmail.com] at May 24, 2009 12:38 PM
Lots of answers in the articles details.
"The senior proms held by Montgomery County High School students — referred to by many students as 'the black-folks prom' and 'the white-folks prom' — are organized outside school through student committees with the help of parents"
OK, so now we know that the school is not officially involved, thus side-stepping any obvious constitutional arguments. But has anyone digged deeper? If these "student committees" are meeting on school grounds, that should be enough to invoke Brown v. BOE even if the school is not funneling any actual money to the event.
"Principal Luke Smith says the school has no plans to sponsor a prom, noting that when it did so in 1995, attendance was poor."
Lazy thinking, at best. Has anyone mentioned to Luke Smith that that was 15 years ago? On-campus attitude changes occur at light speed compared to the adult world.
If the school was serious about tackling this, they'd sponsor one integrated prom and sanction any student involved in organizing a competing activity by refusing them the chance to participate in graduation ceremonies.
snakeman99 at May 24, 2009 2:17 PM
Every time you hear about something like this, you share the story with friends who insist that things like this don't happen any more. We're all so enlightened now, and we're not racist any more. Hell, we have a mulatto president (who is, himself, an anti-white racist, but whatever).
We don't practice racism any more. We don't have lynchings any more. Yeah, right.
Disgusting.
Patrick at May 24, 2009 4:24 PM
Nobody's gonna mention that they way they wrote the aticle, they made it sound like the black prom took place at KFC? Hi-larious
I was taken by the black kids who went to the white prom not to protest but to cheer for their friends, and then leave to have their own good time. Now that the nation knows about this, I can all but guarantee that next year's prom with either be integrated, or far less polite and courteous.
Vinnie Bartilucci at May 24, 2009 4:47 PM
A reporter from New York braves the fever swamps of deepest Georgia to bring us the truth about the degenerate folkways of Montgomery County and a blogger from San Francisco winds up and deplores said folkways. Then the commentariat jumps in, brandishing authority in the form of the ACLU, the Department of Labor and God knows what else, demanding the eradication of this arrant bigotry.
Leave them alone.
Those kids have come to an accomodation that suits Montgomery County, Georgia in this year of 2009 just fine, and in the absence of evidence that anyone is hurt by it, it behooves the rest of us to butt out. The prom-goers' comments make it clear that this custom is in its last generation, and their kids will have a single prom -- unless we force our solution on them, in which case there will be no prom, and the races will retreat to opposite ends of Montgomery County and glare at each other.
Not all problems have solutions -- and sometimes they aren't even problems.
wagnert in atlanta at May 24, 2009 7:49 PM
It's fairly obvious that the black students consider it a problem and are hurt by it, or is it not a problem because racist white folks there don't consider it one? This is an ugly situation and the white parents and students perpetuating this Jim Crow tradition are too ignorant to know how embarrassing their position is.
The comparison of a segregated high school prom to different types of gyms is specious. This is clear, institutional social exclusion, based solely on race. The students attended one high school, there should be one prom. It's not akin to a marketplace of gyms or other businesses tailored to different types of customers based on their interests, abilities or comfort.
The black students showed grace and class by cheering on their white friends. In the future, however, should this shameful practice of separate proms continue, black students at that school would do well to ignore the white prom entirely and throw the classiest party in town.
reader at May 24, 2009 8:40 PM
It is not that as if the blacks were denied a prom. The fact is the blacks were given the opportunity to advance themselves in their own prom. The whites are as entitled to have their very own prom.
WLIL at May 24, 2009 8:40 PM
What wlil said. This is mostly about the magic of the word "prom"... As if that was some Seal of Approval that was being affixed to these courting rituals by the Commonwealth of Massachusetts or the State of Montana or Alabama or South Dakota or whatever; "Yes, this is how the teenagers of our fair state should be expected to dress and court before they go and fuck in their cars."
(That 'cars' part may be a '70's thing... Unless you were rich, you probably had good bench seats.)
A "prom" is not your birthright as an American, it's just this little habit from high school, like the S.A.T.'s and calculus. Theoretically –and truly– these kids will pull their parties together into a single room when they damn well feel like it... They're already halfway there, because the proms are already happening off-campus, right? Authority figures got nothing to do with it, and can't interfere.
Crid [CommentCrid@gmail.com] at May 24, 2009 9:38 PM
>>A "prom" is not your birthright as an American, it's just this little habit from high school, like the S.A.T.'s and calculus.
Not sure of your argument here, Crid?
I understand that SATS, calculus and proms have in common the negative quality of NOT being your birthright. Fine.
But you don't take different SATS or calculus depending on your skin color.
So it seems to me the segregated prom is thus (bloody obviously) unlike SATS and calculus as a "little habit from high school?"
And, as the time-honored SAT formula has it - that's statement of FACT as well as an opinion!
Jody Tresidder at May 25, 2009 5:48 AM
That's what I get for being smartass instead of clear....
> But you don't take different SATS
> or calculus depending on your
> skin color.
No, but you could if you wanted to. Y'know, if you were a 17yo kid and you were off campus and you and all your friends (of skin color X) wanted to take a private scholarship test, or sit in on a private math lecture, no one would stop you.
We sense and share Amy's annoyance, but I just think the impulse to fix this through some exercise of state power must be aggressively resisted. (So aggressively that I didn't check too closely to see if she'd actually proposed anything like that.) Proms are amusing and poignant or whatever, but they're not what school's about. They're the least of what I want guaranteed in a high school edjumication.
(Welch spelled it that way once, and I've been doing it every since. Edjumication! Book-learnin'!)
Crid [CommentCrid@gmail.com] at May 25, 2009 6:05 AM
Pardon me... "-Larnin'"
Crid [CommentCrid@gmail.com] at May 25, 2009 6:11 AM
>>Proms are amusing and poignant or whatever, but they're not what school's about.
You reckon people at high school reunions ten - or 20 - years down the line - chat about what they recall from calculus class - or the senior prom?
Jody Tresidder at May 25, 2009 6:45 AM
There is a difference between people cordoning themselves off from the masses, and a school/parents saying: this is how it is. Freedom of association is fine; a privately owned and organized dudes-only gym wouldn't bother me. But if my town passed a by-law saying that all gyms must be segregated by sex I'd jump out there with a protest sign. Same if my parents wouldn't let me go to a mixed-sex gym. (I prefer working out with guys anyway. Chick don't go hard enough to inspire me.)
These white kids seem pretty flipping pathetic; if they care about their black friends they would have boycotted the real prom, each thrown in like $25 and rented a hall and hired their own DJ. Stuff like this makes me embarrassed.
Gretchen at May 25, 2009 7:39 AM
You reckon people at high school reunions ten - or 20 - years down the line - chat about what they recall from calculus class - or the senior prom?
Actually, Jody, we've chatted about both, and biology class, and the hot English teacher, and the time that Wally Fixen jumped off the second floor fire escape for a pack of cigarettes! We talk about all kindsa things at the reunion.
Didn't anyone see "Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil"? Takes place in Savannah, GA. And the black kids there, instead of a prom, were having a black cotillion, and there weren't any white people invited to that, except for John Cusack's character, it seems, who was investigating some murder or other, after being sent by the magazine he works for, to attend a party at the supposed murderer's house. Daughter #1 just attended her junior prom this past Saturday. Of course, we live in (very) southern New England, so most of the class, skin color not being a divisive factor here, attended both the prom and the post-prom. Lots of limos, party buses, picture taking at the duck pond (with waterfall) behind City Hall. (Of course, being the beach bum that she is, #1 wanted pictures taken at the beach as well.) A lovely time was had by all, especially at the post-prom, where #1 won a $50 gift card, and the Prom Queen won the car donated by her father's dealership! /snark o.O
Flynne at May 25, 2009 7:40 AM
My bad - it is a private prom, not school sponsored. The teenagers have a lot more power here than I thought before. It's on them.
I'm sick of the argument: that's how it's always been. Like perpetuating tradition for the sake of it is a good argument or something.
Could white kids get into the black prom?
Gretchen at May 25, 2009 7:42 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/05/24/bizarre_segrega.html#comment-1650173">comment from GretchenIf I lived there, I'd sure go to the black prom. And bring a black kid to the white prom. Maybe even a black girl to really shake things up. These kids are bribed by their parents to maintain a racist tradition.
Amy Alkon at May 25, 2009 8:11 AM
>>we've chatted about both, and biology class, and the hot English teacher, and the time that Wally Fixen jumped off the second floor fire escape for a pack of cigarettes! We talk about all kindsa things at the reunion.
Sounds fun, Flynne.
I suppose I just meant your reunion-triggered memories of high school are unlikely to be limited to what your education is supposed to be about!
[Oddly, US-style proms are now becoming more common in the UK. (But not segregated ones, I think!). I've no idea why this is happening now, but it's the same with Halloween celebrations. They're also part of this sudden new wave of US cultural creep in some parts of Britain.]
Jody Tresidder at May 25, 2009 8:39 AM
> chat about what they recall
> from calculus class - or the
> senior prom?
What they chat about isn't the measure of our (taxpayer) investment. We could give our little fuckers all sorts of experiences in high school... We could force-feed them hallucinogenic psilocybin spores in the cafeteria at lunch, and get them so high that they'd do vivisection on each other in the afternoon biology lab... They'd probably be chatting about that for many years to come, too.
Besides, the truth is that a lot of their conversation will be about calculus. "Well, I got the Master's in particle physics when I was in the Air Force, but didn't decided to go for the doctorate in fluid mechanics until I was discharged... Ya gotta remember, Peggy was pregnant with Cody at that point, so UT/Austin looked like the best place to go...." Etc. What they'll be chatting about is the totality of their social fitness, much of it (we hope) having been provided by their high school study.
Everything that happens to your immortal soul in a high school prom will happen to it even if you don't go to one... You just won't be wearing an ill-fitting rented tux or goofy pastel taffeta and dancing under crepe paper streamers. Children do not need to be encouraged to mate. I'd rather have my tax dollars and administrative focus spent on calculus.
Crid [CommentCrid@gmail.com] at May 25, 2009 1:49 PM
Segregated proms is featured as a hot issue right now on http://detentionslip.org ! Check it out for all the crazy headlines from our schools.
hall monitor at May 25, 2009 2:12 PM
"You may not know this: there are historically black-only churches in the South; I don't know if they're into the hysteria the President's pals are into because I don't go."
My mom and stepdad go to a "black" church, but they are white. They enjoy the music and preaching more. Those churches don't specifically prohibit whites. They're just usually attended mostly by blacks.
This is different, as it sounds like the black kids were "ushered out" of the white prom.
It would be ok if both groups just preferred to hold separate proms to be with their own race, but didn't get bent out of shape if someone from the other race came too, but this sounds to me like it was started by white parents, who are terrified of any mixed race dating, or god forbid, any mixed race prom photos to put on the mantle.
I thought it was funny when the black girls said, "Half of those girls, when they get home, they're gonna text a black boy".
lovelysoul at May 25, 2009 4:03 PM
I work with a black guy who grew up in Mississippi. Him and I spoke about this very thing a few months back. He said that the two groups would raise their own money and have their proms on separate days in the high school gym. I asked him, "What would have happened if you'd been dating a white girl?" His response was to give me the 'you are so innocent' look and say, "That wasn't exactly happening in my day and still doesn't happen in Mississippi".
From what I can gather this isn't unique and is still going on, stupid and racist though it may be.
-Julie
Julie at May 26, 2009 11:46 AM
I'll start wringing my hands over segregated proms when the Congressional Black Caucus is disbanded.
A separatist racist organization as actual members of our Legislature! Now that's a disgrace.
I'm sick of the race issue.
ShyAsrai at May 30, 2009 6:52 AM
Why I refuse to drink Coca Cola products: open the fridge, take a coke, open, take a sip. KAY, here comes the punchline. Okay, me Chinese me play joke. Me go peepee in your coke :D... Little bastard. You just had to ruin it for eveyone. Didntcha? First they feed our kids lead, and now theyre pissing in our coke? I say screw em! Screw em all! Wait no! I love you china(:
hot water camping showers at September 8, 2011 6:15 AM
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