A Big Howdy To All You Muslim Ladies Out There
If you are a legal immigrant who appreciates Western values and wishes to join Western society, by all means, melt right in. If, however, you hail from a primitive culture where women are considered possessions and your religious leaders advocate husbands beating wives who get a little out of line, and you're cool with all that, well, why would you want to leave Saudi Arabia for the land where men cordially greet women in the halls of their apartment buildings, and other such Western barbarism?
There's an astonishing story in the Canadian Nat Post about a man who was reported to his landlady for -- get this -- saying hello to his Muslim neighbors, one of whom happens to be a woman. Matthew Coutts writes:
When the landlady of my Toronto apartment building said an outraged neighbour had filed a complaint about me over an apparently inappropriate hallway interaction with his wife, my mind raced through the countless conversations I've had with fellow tenants, none of which seemed a possible source of offence.It turns out, it wasn't a salacious transaction that had caused the complaint, but rather a neighbourly and -- to me -- entirely forgettable greeting, little more than a brief "good morning" as I passed my neighbours on the way to work.
Still, it was enough of an affront for the man -- once a doctor somewhere in the Middle East, my landlady clarified -- to feel I had broken a cultural taboo. The incident started an awkward feud which has involved warnings not to repeat my indiscretion and one face-to-face shouting match, which included allusions to my impending death.
Muslims so often take the high road. Of course, their Quran commands them to convert or kill the infidel -- even the friendly, hello-saying infidel -- so the offended, allegedly death-alluding doctor is really just being a good Muslim if he is indeed offering these death threats.
As somebody who smiles at strangers and says hello to them with frequency, I just love the absurdity of this complaint. The cordial neighbor script, Islam-style, apparently goes something like this:
Western man to Muslim man and his Muslim wife/possession:
"Good morning, neighbors!"
Muslim man: "I will behead you, Western dog!"
Western man: "And y'all have a nice day, too!"
When in Rome, do as the Romans do.
Old saying yes, but no less true when it was first spoken than it is today.
When I lived in Germany, I did my best to adopt German customs, to include learning as much of the language as I could. It seemed only polite after all, I was in their country.
When serving in Iraq, I learned as much Arabic for the same reason, when visiting Qatar...well repeat as needed.
Yet it is apparently far to much to ask that a Muslim wishing to live in the west live as westerners do.
I can't blame them alone though, we also have to blame the multiculti nuts who insist that immigrants should NOT assimilate into their new land.
Plenty idiocy to go around.
Robert at May 25, 2009 1:43 AM
Was it the ladies who complained, or their husbands? It may be that the husbands were overreacting.
I know sometimes my husband gets upset if I have any sort of conversation with strange men... a bit of a problem, since I'm totally one to chat with my neighbor on the bus if they strike up a conversation.
NicoleK at May 25, 2009 2:54 AM
Toronto has a lot of Muslim immigrants, including the tent wearing women. It should be interesting to see how these incidents are dealt with. I personally think the guy & his wife should be evicted from the building, because the doctor uttered death threats, which is probably illegal.
Tolerance only goes so far, and then people push back when it compromised their quality of life.
Chrissy at May 25, 2009 7:07 AM
Was it the ladies who complained, or their husbands? It may be that the husbands were overreacting.
Um, yeah. Because they're Muslim.
I, too, think death threats should be prosecuted, and the guy should be evicted from the building. Oh, and in case you're wondering, I mean the guy who made the death threats, assuming this is true.
Amy Alkon at May 25, 2009 7:59 AM
He should be evicted even if he didn't make death threats. What kind of crap is this, verbally attacking a neighbor b/c he said good morning?
kishke at May 25, 2009 8:41 AM
Further to Robert's comment on multicultis, this kind of thing is what we can expect when we allow them (multis) to dictate our agenda with respect to immigrants. That's why we have millions of Mexicans and other Latinos within the U.S. who feel no urgency/need to learn the English language in order to be able to partake of all benefits this society has to offer. (We also teach those that are "illegal" that, sure we have laws on the books, but it's OK to break them with impunity, since we won't enforce them -- but that's another discussion.) We're on the way to getting the Balkanization we deserve with these policies, with resulting unnecessary tensions, and maybe worse down the line.
cpabroker at May 25, 2009 9:06 AM
I think they got the idea from the Steinem-worshipers who berate anyone who holds a door.
Politeness is now supposed to be met with derision, not grace.
Of course, once it gets to "I keeeel you!", the proper response is the "triple tap". Which is illegal in Canada since you can't carry a pistol.
brian at May 25, 2009 9:14 AM
A dirty little secret amongst Canadians is that Toronto has been lost to the dumbest, most politically correct policies ever conceived in the country.
Incidentally, for those not aware, there is a HUGE difference between the terms "multicultural" and "multiple cultures". The latter is more commonly associated with the "melting pot" concept where people from all over the world harmoniously blend together under one new nation, under one flag, providing a delicious blend of cuisine, art, music, etc.
But make no mistake, that is NOT what "multicultural" means. It refers to the belief that all cultures & customs are precisely equal and any questioning of any other culture makes you a bigoted racist.
Toronto has been pushing multiculturalism to the extreme for decades and that is why we end up with situations like in the news story.
Robert W. (Vancouver) at May 25, 2009 11:24 AM
I find it amazing that there are people living here that have been here for years, and still don't know any English. They don't have to learn it if they don't leave their little neighbourhood.
Chrissy at May 25, 2009 11:52 AM
This isn't surprising. Not long ago, a mosque in Toronto made the news when it's Imam preached that saying "Merry Christmas" to an infidel was the same as murder in the eyes of Allah. The mosque's website expanded on this by banning all good Canadian muslims from ever saying "Happy Thanksgiving", "Happy Birthday", or "Happy Anniversary", not to mention walking dogs or having any contact whatsoever with filthy infidels of the opposite sex. You can read about it here:
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=0821a06b-a34d-4e76-aaf9-b3015c1a37bb&k=66020
Note the bit at the end where the Imam gives the ultimate rationale for all this: "With strong deliberation and patience, the world - God willing - will be under Muslim control"
The disease of multicuralism has advanced further in Canada than in the USA, but this same message is being preached in mosques in every Western country, and with the same ultimate objective.
"I think they got the idea from the Steinem-worshippers"
No they did not. The idea comes straight from the Koran. From the article:
"Allah and his messenger have warned us against following or imitating non-Muslims"
"How can we bring ourselves to congratulate or wish people well for their disobedience to Allah?"
Martin at May 25, 2009 11:56 AM
Wow, just wow. I think Suki is posting this one to the SukiProject blog.
For some reason this affinity that Leftists have for the folks in the article is no longer puzzling. They seem to enjoy rude authoritarian jerks.
Also, I just wrote you about the latest nut gal to waste a week of my time before revealing that she is nuts. That is probably irrelevant to this, other than she seems to be waiting for the guy who got her on a series of watchlists to come back from the Mideast to the US next year, when he can legally enter the country again.
John Tagliaferro at May 25, 2009 1:03 PM
"I think they got the idea from the Steinem-worshipers who berate anyone who holds a door."
Not really.
Chinese, Koreans or Japanese do not greet each other in the apartment hall way. We avoid eye contacts unless we know each other. It does not mean they are rude or hostile. It is just the way they behave.
However, Asian man would try to strike a conversation like "hello" or "good morning" to an opposite sex if he has a romantic interest.
I can see how this innocent "hello" made that Muslim woman's husband upset. I am pretty sure that was taken as a romantic advance to his wife.
When I came to this country from South Korea, a lot of attractive tall blonds said good morning to me with big smiles at the college dorm hall way. And I thought for a while that this short, skinny Asian boy is considered hot on this side of Pacific.
Chang at May 25, 2009 1:03 PM
Well, Chang, you figured it out didn't you? Do you expect other immigrants to stay culturally isolated? If so, why?
liz at May 25, 2009 1:53 PM
Chinese, Koreans or Japanese do not greet each other in the apartment hall way. We avoid eye contacts unless we know each other. It does not mean they are rude or hostile. It is just the way they behave.
Not saying hello is one thing. Flying off the handle is quite another.
It is just the way they behave.
Well, that's the problem. B/c that's not how we behave here. It behooves the immigrant to conform to local norms, not vice versa.
kishke at May 25, 2009 2:00 PM
Hey Chang. I am here in South Korea now. True Koreans keep to themselves and will likely not wander a hello or even much eye contact. But many time have I a whitey in the Land of the Morning Calm given a hello or a smile and have gotten a response from "annyonghaseyo" back to a smile to a grunt but never have I got yelled at. True maybe a few loud shouts of "miguk-saram" (American!) and finger pointing from a few young kids, but they are kids! Heck in South Korea you can get drive by "hello" and "nice to meet you" chorus from a giggling group of middle school girls who get all flustered as soon as a thirty something short fat Canadian goes hello back.
Reading about that man in Canada is just so frigging dumb-founding as it is in CANADA the land that everyone is so polite and nice!
My advice is if the fight continues to get nasty record his conversations as it is in public and when he has a threat then go to the police or the tenant board and have the doctor evicted.
John Paulson at May 25, 2009 4:47 PM
"Do you expect other immigrants to stay culturally isolated? If so, why?"
Yes and No.
I want them to be isolated enough so that they do not forget how to cook original chicken lo mein. It is very important to me as I hate cooking and where I live, I have fourteen different national cuisines available within one hour driving distance.
But the same time I want them to get out and learn how to speak damn English, so that I do not get chicken fajitas when I ordered chicken tacos. I have a Korean friend, who became an English teacher to teach English to immigrants because his uncle got shot at the liquor store he worked because he did not understand the robber's command "freeze!!"
The point I am trying to make it is that the immigrants including myself needs to generally assimilate to American culture, which we came here for. But not so blindly. I am going to pick and choose. I really doubt any of AIG executives practice Buddhism.
Chang at May 25, 2009 5:36 PM
Now, do the Muslim men absolutely not say anything to Western women? An equally big stink could be made about Muslims saying hello to non-Muslim women, after all if their culture equates 'hello' with a sexual advance, what are they trying to do to western women? Don't shake my hand! You're not allowed to! Go by their rules and all of us women skitter away from them hiding our eyes. Go by their cultural norms and prosecute for sexual harassment;-)
crella at May 25, 2009 6:28 PM
I was about to tease Chang –whom I've often mocked as callow– for being old enough for a license:
> I have fourteen different
> national cuisines available
> within one hour driving
...but then I read this...
> I have a Korean friend, who
> became an English teacher to
> teach English to immigrants
> because his uncle got shot at
> the liquor store he worked
> because he did not understand
> the robber's command "freeze!!"
I can't imagine a more poignant story of assimilation. This comes to mind. I remember when Hattori's parents came to the White House to discuss the matter: It was the only time in two terms that it seemed worthwhile to have a master of human feeling in the Oval Office. I can't dream of the words a president would use to craft an apology, but we can imagine Clinton deploying his interpersonal superpowers to carry the moment.
(Imagine if it had been Nixon.)
Crid [CommentCrid@gmail.com] at May 25, 2009 6:33 PM
The only answer for the Canadian is leave bags of dog pooh and pork fat in front of the couple's door. They'll see the offerings and move.
Oh and leave some Bible verses, too. Just to be safe.
KateC at May 25, 2009 6:56 PM
Bombings in Israel are down, aren't they?
Crid [CommentCrid@gmail.com] at May 25, 2009 7:04 PM
I'm pretty sure Muslim men think all western women are free prostitutes anyways, so they're always communicating with women with a romantic interest. A good way to get rid of them would be to say 'I shower in pig's blood every day' and watch their faces. It would be good for a laugh.
Chrissy at May 26, 2009 8:42 AM
Wow, this story is nuts, but I'd be careful of painting everyone with the same brush. I have muslim friends who are immigrants, and act nothing like the couple in the article. It is a national cultural thing as much as a religious thing - let's not forget that Islam is all over the world, in very secular and more liberal nations as well. Some of these nations even have women in high government positions, more so than in the U.S. Let's also not forget all those fundamentalist christians in our country who also consider women to be the property of men, so much so that they believe women shouldn't even be allowed to make their own medical decisions.
Also, for those of you who are so convinced that they will get yelled at for holding a door for a western woman because of some kind of Steinem-induced conspiracy against males: Puh-lease. Is this 1975? Do people actually get berated for holding doors?? Holding a door is common courtesy, and here in NY we all hold doors for each other, women for men and vice versa. Is this door holding thing an actual issue, or an excuse to bash that scary scary concept that some women would like to be seen as equals? I don't know one woman who finds door-holding offensive.
I'd even hold the door for Brian, and hopefully he'd have enough sense to keep quiet about his disdain for women who believe they can actually be seen as equals to men. A simple 'thank you' will suffice. That is common courtesy.
lori m at May 26, 2009 9:36 AM
What strikes me about this is that a simple "Please don't talk to my wife, that is forbidden in our culture" conversation would have resolved the issue without all of the hatred.
That is the point, the hatred. If you hate the country you've chosen to move to, why move there?
I did laugh at the 'pigs blood shower'. I say just give their number and address to the Jehovah's Witnesses or another extremely evangelical Christian organization. Let them fight it out. :-)
As far as the door holding thing. I hold the door for my husband, he holds the door for me. For awhile, I was too sick or weak to be able to open most doors, so my husband had to get the door. It is a matter of kindness these days, not a matter of required chivalry or an issue of the 'patriarchy'. Lol
-Julie
Julie at May 26, 2009 11:29 AM
> as much as a religious thing - let's
> not forget that Islam is all over
> the world, in very secular and more
> liberal nations as well.
Listen for the words "absolute Koranic authority."
Crid [CommentCrid@gmail.com] at May 26, 2009 12:49 PM
a simple "Please don't talk to my wife, that is forbidden in our culture" conversation would have resolved the issue without all of the hatred.
A simple good morning would work even better.
kishke at May 26, 2009 1:01 PM
"It is a matter of kindness these days."
Wha? You're going to change the playbook just like that after 40 years? Give a guy a little warning, for Pete's sake! I need time to take it in gradually...
Jay R at May 26, 2009 1:09 PM
I'm talking to my pal, Julie, of course. ;)
Jay R at May 26, 2009 1:10 PM
Wha? You're going to change the playbook just like that after 40 years? Give a guy a little warning, for Pete's sake! I need time to take it in gradually...
This will freak you out even more. I don't hate you because you have a penis!
RUN FOR COVER, HIS BRAIN IS GOING TO MELT!!!!
hehe :-D
-Julie
Julie at May 26, 2009 2:20 PM
I have a penis -- in a jar, under my bed. All feminists do. It comes with the membership card and the everburning bra.
MonicaP at May 26, 2009 4:00 PM
I'm just sayin' it's not fair to snark on the ladies if it is their husbands who are acting psycho.
But now I'm re-reading the first paragraph and thinking maybe you meant it for the men.
NicoleK at May 27, 2009 3:45 AM
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