Feminists want a monopoly on domestic violence. Anybody that says it's not just a womans issue will be shouted down and labeled a misogynist.

The monopoly feminist have on domestic violence is a VERY POWERFULL special interest group that receives millions if not billions of dollars for "their" issues. See VAWA.

Feminists do not want to release this stranglehold on "their" domestic violence issues and all the power and money that goes with it.

here in austin, the shelter is for both genders. We also have billboards encouraging male rape victims to speak out. In fact, austin is quite aggressively gender-equal on this.

@momof4

Im glad to see it but your shelter is only 1 of a handful that allows men.

Ms Pizzy is seeing the militarism that feminists have become and the sense of entitlement that they believe they enjoy. I have 4 daughters and I nor my wife would ever teach them to use rape accusations against a man. Unfortunately we see a trend that if a women does not get what she wants ANY claim of impropriety will give her a "Get what I want free" card with no real vetting of her claims. I still believe that over 60% of rape claims are smokescreens because she got caught doing something she shouldnt have been. How many times have we seen cases of false claims. Duke Lacrosse being one of the more high profile.

Feminists do not want a true auditing of thier funding because much of what they claim as facts are distorted beyond recognition simply to ensure the wallet stays open for them.

I would argue for separate men's and women's shelters, mainly because experts surmise that men don't come forward out of shame. Seems to me that they'd get a lot more out of being with other battered men in a closed situation where they could support one another and not feel "weak" and "girly" for coming forward. Just makes more sense to me.

Pizzey developed the theory that many battered women were psychologically drawn to abusive relationships and they sought them out. To PC feminists, such analysis was tantamount to 'blaming the victim.'

I can personally attest to this. I grew up in an abusive household and was sexually assaulted for the first time at the age of 13. To be blunt, that shit fucks you up.

I had a series of bad relationships where I found the most awful people to date. This continued until after my first year of college. I barely survived after more than one rape and an abusive relationship that I still won't share the details of to my husband many years later. I never hit him once, not even in self defense. I took a break from dating and joined the army. It was then that I was able to see that if all of the guys I was dating were jerks, I must be either attracting them or subconsciously choosing them. I also noticed that I couldn't tell a good guy from a bad guy. I entered into therapy to change these things, met my husband, and have been rather happy since then (and continue to work on my issues, sadly these things don't go away, they are controlled).

I don't see this as 'blaming the victim'. If I walk down a dark alley, I increase my risk of being mugged, robbed, or raped. That is why many of us don't walk down dark alleys. However, my walking down the dark alley doesn't absolve the person assaulting me from fault. If someone said,

"Let the perp go. S/he is no longer at fault because Julie was walking down a dark alley. She should know better than that." That is blaming the victim.

-Julie

@Lynne

The issue is that people dont belive that women can be as violent as men with regards to DV.

Couple that with the fact that there are fewer then 10 shelters in the NATION that accept men and that the womens shelters will not even take boys over age 12 and you have a sever lack of resources for men to get help should they ask for it.

There is a SEVERE disparity in this country and VAWA to my mind is actually illegal because it makes no provision and is not gender nuetral which all laws are supposed to be. California recently saw its DV laws scrapped by the State Supreme Court as being unconstitutional because it refused services to men while funding "women only".

Its a step in the right direction.

@Julie

But thats the whole argument behind being held personally responsible for your own actions. If you know the man is abusive or belligerent dont date him. If you see a dark alley dont go down there. If youre scared of a person or they threaten you then dont associate with them.

Its been my experience that too many women want the "bad boy" and are then surprised when the bad boy turns out to be an asshole.

What did you expect exactly?

I was dating a girl years ago who I treated like a queen and she dumped me because I was "too nice" to date a guy who she thought was more her style. The guys was the typical arrogant,cocky, egotistical jackass that you would find in any college. he was Mr "I have a different girl" all the time and she was genuinely shocked when he ended up knocking the hell out her because she wouldnt put out for him( as an aside on this he didnt like much what I did to him :D)

Im not saying blame the victim but cmon dont lay down with dogs and not expect to get fleas as a result.

But thats the whole argument behind being held personally responsible for your own actions. If you know the man is abusive or belligerent dont date him. If you see a dark alley dont go down there. If youre scared of a person or they threaten you then dont associate with them.

Um, huh?

I wrote an entire dialog about how I understand that often women who are in abusive relationships or suffer childhood sexual abuse will seek out the same, but that doesn't absolve the abuser from their actions. I also wrote that I realized what I was doing and managed to stop with help from therapy and personal will. What is your point exactly?

Oh and BTW, few abusive people start out that way. They are nice at first and work you down to the point that you believe you deserve the treatment.

-Julie

What is your point exactly?

Mike wanted to use your story as his entree to complain that women shouldn't like bad boys and that alpha males are assholes.

Don't take it personally :P

That's why it's generally not a good idea to post personal information on internet forums. What you reveal is inevitably used against you or twisted beyond all recognition.

So battered wives finally made an appearance in the UK, eh?
And here I was thinking we're the only country that deep-fries everything we eat.

lol, gog!

I would love to see the Other Mike's research to show the growing trend in reporting fake rapes. And his belief that 60% of rapes are false reports in response to a woman getting caught doing what she shouldn't be doing. How nice of him to not teach his daughters to ever cry rape when it isn't true. After reading his comment, I became physically ill. As a survivor of domestic violence and someone who speaks publicly for the Coalition, it is disturbing to read such things. Yes, there are feminists who radicalize everything, and yes, men can be victims too, but the majority of victims are women. I think its fair to say that there are reasons that some people become victims as opposed to others without turning that into blaming the victim, but just as some feminists radicalize it, some people downplay it in retaliation to that radicalization. What gets lost in these battles is the fact that too many women are still getting abused and killed on a daily basis. What gets lost is that if you assault a stranger, you will get arrested and face jail time. If you assault your wife or lover, you will most likely get probation if you are even arrested and for a second arrest which is usually following a great deal of abuse, therapy is the next punishment. How often do men who beat their wives get jail time, actual jail time? I apologize for running on and on and for not being very articulate in my comment, but it upsets me that this should even be an argument. Stop the argument and get educated about DV. It is only through education and awareness that there is a hope to end it whether it is perpetrated against males or females.

How often do men who beat their wives get jail time, actual jail time? - Krisetn

Less often then guys who never touched their wives get jailed for being tricked into violating a protection order, and far less often then women who beat their husbands

Mike wanted to use your story as his entree to complain that women shouldn't like bad boys and that alpha males are assholes.

Don't take it personally :P

No worries, it isn't my fault that The Other Mike can't get laid. O:-)

-Julie

"How often do men who beat their wives get jail time, actual jail time? - Krisetn

Less often then guys who never touched their wives get jailed for being tricked into violating a protection order, and far less often then women who beat their husbands -lujlp"

So you're saying that guys who NEVER hit their wives go to jail in higher numbers that guys that actually do?

Statistics?

Kristin you're right, most domestic incidents don't result in jail sentences, but neither do standard assaults. Severe assaults in either category are the minority. Most are relatively minor, and this is especially true for domestic incidents. The crimes perpetrated don't typically rise to the level of those warranting incarceration.

I used to work as a placement counselor for men and women seeking shelter in temporary residential settings in DC and so have some experience in this area.

Frankly the politicization of DV has probably resulted in fewer resources being devoted to intervention in those cases which are likely to result in severe harm and death. The police and social services are too busy dealing with the other 90 odd percent of cases, that usually involve two idiots who got high on something and started beating on each other.

It may seem counterintuitive, but IMO the best way to help women who face a severe threat from DV is to treat both male and female offenders equivalently. This would serve as a disincentive to domestic violence generally and stop the game-playing that female participants in DV rely on. They'd be held accountable for their role in the altercation. It would also free-up resources to deal with the most severe cases, where you have a pattern of extreme abuse that escalates to murder or grievous harm.

"Mike wanted to use your story as his entree to complain that women shouldn't like bad boys and that alpha males are assholes.
Don't take it personally :P
No worries, it isn't my fault that The Other Mike can't get laid. O:-)

-Julie"

See now thats a good liberal fem in action. My main point was im tired of women getting away with false claims and then other women trying to pawn off the fact THEY chose an asshole. I have never said anyone male or female deserves DV. But since you ask for "research" here ya go and have fun reading. I dont ever post conjecture I post facts.

Happy reading :D

@julie Happily married for a decade...no problem getting laid. Another nice littl fem tactic..go for the crotch.

Straus et al. (1980); Straus & Gelles (1990). Both National Family Violence Surveys, with a combined sample of more than 8,000 respondents, reported comparable gender rates for not only physical assaults, but verbal abuse as well.

Rouse, Breen and Howell (1988). This survey of 130 dating and 130 married students found that women are more likely than men to engage in isolation behaviors, such as “monitors time,” “discourages same-sex friends” and “discourages opposite sex friends.”

Stets (1991). The male and female respondents in this study of dating students reported equivalent rates of controlling behaviors (e.g., “I keep my partner in line,” “I am successful in imposing my will onto my partner”), as well as psychological abuse (e.g., “Said mean things,” “Degraded him/her”).

Kasian & Painter (1992). The authors surveyed a large sample (1,625) university students. Male respondents reported higher rates of received abuse, as measured by a modified version of the Psychological Maltreatment of Women Inventory, for control, jealousy/isolation, verbal abuse and withdrawal of affection. There were no gender differences in rates of received emotional abuse (”diminishment of self-esteem”).

Feder and Henning (2005). In this study of 317 couples dually arrested for IPV (interpersonal violence), most of them African-American, criminal justice data revealed no differences between the partners in injuries inflicted or weapons use. Interview data revealed no differences in physical assault; women were more likely to use a weapon, but to suffer slightly higher rates of injuries (19.6% vs. 15.0%). There were no gender differences in overall psychological abuse or coercive control tactics.

Stacey, Hazelwood & Shupe (1994). Higher rates of victimization than perpetration were reported by the male subjects in this Texas study of men in batterer treatment on four of the thirteen items from the CSR Abuse Index: “deny rights to privacy,” “deny access to family,” “withdraw emotions to punish,” and “withhold sex to punish.” Although the men reported lower rates of victimization than females on the other items, the differences were usually not large (e.g., “deny freedom of activities” was cited by 71% of men and 72% of women; “deny access to friends” was cited by 57% of men and 63% of women, and “censor phone calls” was reported by 53% of men and 60% of women.) One would have expected much larger differences from this population, considering that the men had been arrested and deemed “batterers,” while their female partners were deemed the “victims.”

Tjaden & Thoennes (2000). The National Violence Against Women Survey (NVAWS), drawing on a sample of 16,000 men and women, reported that 0.2% of men are stalked each year by a current or former intimate, and 0.5% of women, a ratio of 2.5 women for each man victimized. In addition, .038% of the men reported to having been raped the previous year. Five times as many women (0.2%) said that this had happened to them.

Spitzberg & Rhea (1999). The authors examined a variety of stalking subtypes, collectively known as obsessive relational intrusion (ORI). Results from their sample of college students in Texas revealed a 54% rate of male-perpetrated ORI’s, versus 46% for females.

Langhinrichsen-Rohling, Palarea, Cohen & Rohling (2000). In this college survey, respondents were asked to report on their own ORI behavior, as well as incidents of victimization. There were no overall gender differences in stalking rates. However, men made more unwanted visits to homes and apartments, whereas women left the greater share of unwanted phone messages. Women were also four times as likely to report having been physically threatened.

Meloy & Boyd (2003). The authors reported on 82 female cases from mental health clinics and some who came to the attention of law enforcement. The women were similar to male stalkers in having a history of failed intimate relationships and having cluster “B” DSM IV personality disorders (not antisocial). They were also similar in that 50% — 75% threatened and 50% — 55% assaulted their victim. But they were different in that they more often carried out threats and caused property damage.

Busby & Compton (1997). A large survey of 3,034 engaged couples reported that 6.1% men and 13.0% women had been sexually pressured by their partner.

O’Sullivan et al. (1998). In this survey of 433 dating university students, 18.5% of the men and 42.5% of women reported to having been sexually coerced by their partner.

Muehlenhard & Cook (1988). This college study revealed that men more often than women engaged in unwanted sexual intercourse, at rates of 63% versus 46%. Being taken advantage of when intoxicated was reported by 30.8% of the men, and 21.0% of the women. Among the men, 13.4% had been verbally coerced, and 11.5% of the women said that this had happened to them. The rates were 5.7% for men subjected to nonviolent coercion (e.g., blocking the door, holding the person down), compared with 5.4% for the women. Coercion involving physical assaults was experienced by 1.4% of the men and 2.7% of the women.

Waldner-Haugrud & Magruder (1995). The authors asked a dating population about a range of coercive sexual behaviors. In the previous year, the men had an average of 2.26 incidents perpetrated upon them, and the women 2.86. Persistent touching was reported by 51% of males and 70% of females. Men were twice as likely to report blackmail (8.5% versus 4.2%); women reported a higher incidence of manipulative guilt (30.1% versus 22.5%). The women were twice as likely as men to be restrained or detained, and more threatened with physical force (6.9% to 6.0%); but three times more men had weapons used against th em (4.5% versus 1.4%).

Coker, Davis, Arias, Desai, Sanderson, Brandt & Smith (2002). A re-examination of data of 16,000 respondents from the National Violence Against Women Survey found lifetime male victimization rates of 10.5% for experienced verbal abuse and jealousy/possessiveness, and 6.8% for power/control, compared to rates of 5.2% and 6.9% for women.

Riggs, O’Leary & Breslin (1990). Found a strong correlation between having a dominant and aggressive personality and IPV for both men and women.

Cano, Avery-Leaf, Cascardi & O’Leary (1998). Found a significant correlation in high school dating study for boys and girls between the use of jealousy and dominance tactics and physical assaults.

Hines & Saudino (2003). Using the Revised Conflict Tactics Scale, this survey of 481 university students found comparable levels of physical aggression between the genders. Women were found to have engaged in higher levels of psychological aggression, and the two types of abuse tended to co-exist.

Graham-Kevan & Archer (2005). Drawing upon a community sample of university students and faculty in Lancashire, England, the authors found rates of 13% for female intimate terrorists and 9% for male intimate terrorists, based upon the same criteria as used by Michael Johnson (a combination of physical violence, control, and psychological abuse).

Laroche (2005), and Graham-Kevan (2007). Laroche analyzed a massive Canadian study, the 1999 GSS, involving 25,876 respondents. Respondents were asked about their victimization by a current or previous spouse in the past 5 years. In addition to questions on physical assaults, the survey also asked respondents about victimization from the following psychologically abusive and controlling behaviors by their partner, similar to those in the Duluth Power and Control Wheel: “Limits your contact with family or friends,” “puts you down or calls you names to make you feel bad,” “is jealous and doesn’t want you to talk to other men/women,” “harms or threatens to harm someone close to you,” demands to know who you are with and where you are at all times,” “damages or destroys your possessions or property,” and “prevents you from knowing about or having access to the family income, even if you ask.” For the five year period prior to the study, approximately 3% of the surveyed women, and 2% of the men, were counted as victims of severe intimate terrorism (IT) – defined as having experienced severe and frequent physical violence and high levels of psychological abuse and control, and who would fit Ehrensaft et al.’s “clinical abuse cases” from injuries sustained, fear expressed, and use of police and other services. Graham-Kevan analyzed the results of the same survey, except that she focused on abuse reported for the past year only, and found very comparable rates of intimate terrorism between the genders. This is a remarkable finding, considering the study’s methodology (akin to the NVAWS in t hat its questionnaire framed IPV in terms of personal safety rather than conflict, thus suppressing male victimization rates) and “the inadequate assessment of controlling behaviors suffered by men” (Laroche, 2005, p. 11).

Felson & Outlaw (2007). An analysis of data originally obtained through the NVAWS with a sample of over 15,000 currently married or formerly married adults found that: (1) women are just as controlling and jealous towards their male partners as other way around; (2) the relationship between use of control/jealousy and physical violence exists equally for both male and female respondents; (3) “Intimate terrorists” can be either male or female. (Controlling/ jealous behaviors defined as: “Prevents you from knowing about or having access to family income even when you ask”; “Prevents you from working outside the home”; “Insists on knowing who you are with at all times”; Insists on changing residences even when you don’t want or need to”; “Tries to limit your contact with family and friends.”) Regarding the extent to which men and women engage in “intimate terrorism,” the authors write: “Both husbands and wives who are controlling are more likely to produce injury and engage in repeated violence. Similar effects are observed for jealousy, although not all are statistically significant. The seriousness of the violence is apparently associated with motive, although the relationship does not depend on gender” (p. 404). It should be pointed out that the National Violence Against Women Survey was designed, conducted and analyzed by feminist researchers, who sought to prove that violence against female intimate partners is much more serious than violence against male intimate partners.

Straus (2006). 7.6% of the male respondents and 10.6% of the female respondents interviewed in the International Dating Violence Survey (sample of 13,601 university students in 32 countries) reported having perpetrated severe assaults, and both partners were found to be violent in 68.6% of the cases. Based on 9 items related to dominance on the PRP (e.g., “my partner needs to remember that I am in charge”), the survey found overall dominance scores to be equal across gender, although higher dominance scores were found for women in 24 of 32 countries. It was also found that dominance by either partner increases the probability of severe violence, and that dominance by females increases risk of severe female-only or mutual IPV more than does male dominance.

Jack-It would be nice if you could treat both male and female offenders equivalently. And yes, there is a certain amount of politicalization, but the sad fact is that DV is a very real problem in our society and it affects more than the abuser and victim. It affects children, families and friends. I will never say that there are not female abusers or that men do not get abused, but the majority of victims are women. Without making it a feminist issue, because really it is a human one, the issue of DV needs to become more of a priority. Nobody, male or female, should ever have to live in fear of someone claiming to love them.

Very nice TOMD. Hope you don't mind if I use that in the future.

Funny, Kristen, you asked for research, and mike gave them, but your post 6 hours after that didn't even acknowledge it. Instead, again you trot out the women are the biggest 'victims' mantra again. DV is a 50/50 proposition. But the DV/rape industry screams that only women are the 'victims', and it's all about the funding. It isn't about helping people, or getting to the root causes of said behavior and determining a way to correct/stop it. Instead, let's just create more laws that put more men in jail.

Feel free to google, Kanin, McDowell, the recent study by the Times of India. While not all come to the 60% conclusion (McDowell's does), it shows a much higher incidence of false rape accusations than the standard 2% myth that feminism loves to use. If you are feeling adventurous, I would recommend stopping by my website, www.falserapesociety.blogspot.com, and see just how often this is happening. It's scary, and is directed at almost one gender exclusively (men). And those men are at best ignored, or at worst, put in prison where they likely will be raped (repeatedly).

"All men are rapists and that's all they are." Marilyn French in People, February 20, 1983..

"Men who are unjustly accused of rape can sometime gain from the experience." Catherine Comins, Vassar College Assistant Dean of Student Life in Time, June 3, 1991, p. 52..

Erin Pizzey was ostracized because she didn't buy into the "women are the only victims" mantra of the DV industry, and wanted to help men as well. There is a shelter in the UK that was recently started up for men, and the DV industry there has had a conniption fit over it, even though this shelter receives no public funding. The cries have been of the nature that this new shelter will "take money away from our shelters". That they only worry about the money, and not about the fact that it MAY reduce the services they provide (don't see how as the majority of shelters don't help men and boys over 13), is a very telling item in my book.

E. Steven Berkimer-I felt that I did explain in my post that I do think that men are victims as well. I also don't think that its productive to man bash or bash women for that matter. DV is a serious problem. Are there false reports of rape? I'm sure there are, but I also don't believe that the jails are filled with innocent people either. Instead of choosing male/female sides, feminists, etc, its time that we do learn to respect each other and to realize that DV is a problem and that it is a cycle that begins in childhood whether its a victim or an abuser. And again, notice I did not assign a gender to either. Its hard to point fingers at feminists though when there are comments looking to take the complete opposite position and dig in their heels. Is that really productive? It makes you just as bad as the feminists that you are complaining about. Feminist groups are no different than any other minority groups that take extreme positions. I don't always agree with Al Sharpton, but I do respect the fact that sometimes you need Al Sharptons in this world to make changes happen. I'm not looking for laws to put more "men" in jails. I'm looking for ways to break a cycle of violence that affects both men and women. To be quite honest, I wish we could learn more about it and the ways to prevent it early on so that there is no need to discuss jails at all. Wouldn't that be a nice world to live in!

Kristen, sorry, I've been out of pocket all weekend, but thanks for responding.

It would be nice, but so long as the gender feminists continue to state that women are the victims of DV and that false rape accusations are a myth, then I will, as much as I don't like him, step up and act just like Al. Keep in mind his role in the Tawana Brawley case.

The problem I have, specifically with False Rape accusations (in case you couldn't tell, that is a huge issue/passion for me), is that it affects men 99.99% of the time. So we have a crime that almost exclusively targets men. And the reaction by most people in this country is that it isn't a problem. It is a HUGE problem. Thankfully, cases like Duke, Tawana Brawley, Tamara Moonier and several others, are allowing us to bring the discussion into the open. Just like DV used to be a hush hush subject false rape accusations are treated the same.

It would be nice if we could get at the root of what causes the crimes to be comitted. But so long as there is an extremely profitable industry, that is geared toward the aftermath of the crime, there will be little push to cure the cause. What would those in the industries (DV/Rape advocacy) do? They aren't going to give up the gravy train. They will fight that tooth and nail. And to me, that speaks volumes about their intention. It isn't fully about helping the 'victims', it's about the money. And that is morally grotesque.

E.Steven Berkimer-I recall Al Sharpton's behavior during the Tawana Brawley case and it was sickening. I also recall him carrying coffins in protest down a residential street to protest a police shooting. I'm all for protesting, but there were families on that block that had nothing to do with it that were terrorized. Overall though, I understand the need for the Al Sharptons of the world. A woman falsely accusing a man of rape should face jail time. I am not against men despite my abusive marriage. My ex was abusive. All men are not. I get that. I do see DV as a serious problem though and I don't think it gets the attention that is needed. My son brought home a friend who has an abusive father. He beats the mother and the kids. I took the kid in. While I do have some sympathy for the mother, you cross the line in my book when you allow it to happen to your child or even your child to witness it. DV is a serious problem and what do you think this kid will be doing in 10 years without therapy and people to show him how people, not just men, are supposed to behave towards each other. It is a cycle that affects so many and its a shame to get caught up in sides of an argument and watch a kid like this get lost in it. My experience in the court system was a nightmare. A judge was willing to issue a restraining order against my ex, but not take away his visitation. Does that make sense? He was a danger but still had a right to his weekends with the kids. That is where the Coalition helped me. They helped advocate in court not just for me but for my children. So I guess our difference here is that we both acknowledge problems are there, but neither one of us really has a solution for it.

Kristen,

The first step is to stop putting all the blame on men. DV is gender neutral. But to listen to the DV industry, it is something men do to women (the same is said of rape, but that is a whole nother topic). And they do it intentionally. For without the 'women are victims' mantra, the funding would diminish or dry up completely, and we know how strongly people feeding from the government trough willingly give up the goods, don't we?

Accountability is still a huge problem. We still, IMO due to misplaced chivalry, don't want to admit and by extension, hold women as accountable for men for the violence they commit. Now, that could be debated, but with 'Primary Agressor' mandatory arrest policies, I don't see it as such a stretch.

I too have seen to many TRO's issued with custody retained. By women as well as men. But for some reason, men are more likely to be taken to jail for violation. I've seen people (men and women) who have a history of false accusations of all types still maintain custody of their kids, even though it is proven that they are a danger to the kids.

What is needed, is to get rid of the no fault divorce. Make PROVEN infidelity, abuse (of any kind), etc., reason for divorce, with 50/50 joint custody mandatory, barring proof that it would be harmful.

And let's start taking a serious look at what the root causes are for abusive behavior (men and women). Right now all we do is punish, punish, punish (when we aren't ignoring it). And the DV industry has contributed to that.

Anectodote time.... shortly after I got out of the military (1993), I was over visiting my sister-in-law and nephew while my brother was deployed to an aircraft carrier. As I was leaving that night, and talking to my SIL on the doorstep, across the street and up about 3 houses, we heard an argument. The lady was trying to leave, and the husband wasn't letting her (they were outside about 10 feet from the driveway). They were screaming at each other, and he pushed her back towards the house. Their 12 year old son stepped in front of mom, and screamed "don't touch my mom", and dad hit him (closed fisted). I got pissed. I grabbed my nephews baseball bat (wooden) from next to the porch and went running. When I got near them, I told him "Don't touch him again. If your wife wants to take it (since she was trying to leave, I guess she didn't), she's an adult. But you don't hit the kid." He started at me with fists closed, so I hit him over the head with the bat. Knocked him out. She took the kid and left. I later found out from my SIL, that from that point on, he started counseling with her, and was taking anger management classes, and they were working on the problem, and that he hadn't been abusive since. I hope what I did was the wakeup call he needed, to see what he was doing.

I would think that we should be able to make that education less painful, but still get the same point across. Education, for all involved, that abuse (physical/verbal/emotional) is not acceptable or tolerated. And back it up with punishment, regardless of the gender.

Right now, men are primarily the ones punished. And that is part of the reason that Erin Pizzey was ostracized. She advocated for both genders. The Feminist movement couldn't tolerate that, and it still is that way to this day.

Anyone who doubts this, have a male freind call your local shelter, and say that he and his 2 teenage boys that are being abused by the wife, and ask if they can go to that shelter. The response will more than likely be educational.

This has gotten way to long and rambling. I think we are primarily on the same page, now we just need to figure out what to do. I have started contributing to a shelter that assists men AND women. They are housed in seperate buildings, but the dining area and recreational areas are joined, so that both sides see that there are people who aren't what they are escaping from. They provide counseling for those individuals and their children, on what a healthy relationship (spousal/child-parent) is like. They can only house about 20 on each side (with kids), but they are trying something different.

It's rather refreshing.

E. Steven Berkimer-Yes, its getting long but I would like to comment on the fact that it was nice to have a discussion where although on the same page mostly, we were able to disagree on minor points without it resorting to personal attacks. Hopefully there will come a time where these discussions are not necessary.