The French Might Be Commies
But they know a thing or two about love, sex, and relationships (there's no French word for dating). An excerpt, from the Daily Mail, from Debra Ollivier's book (which I've read, and recommend), What French Women Know: About Love, Sex, and Other Matters of the Heart and Mind:
In France there is no war of the sexes going on. French men and women actually want to be together. They enjoy their mutual company. They spar. They debate. They flirt.Here's what a French woman would tell you: a man is not a woman. He cannot think like you. He cannot 'process' like you. So don't try to make him like you. And don't have any expectation that he might behave like you.
When British women aren't busy trying to change ourselves, we're often busy trying to change our men. The French attitude is why fight when you can finesse? Why try to modify your mate's behaviour when this futile exercise generally causes stresses?
FRENCH WOMEN FLIRT
Flirtation is not just alive and well in France. It is the lifeblood that beats at the core of French society. Young women flirt. Older women flirt. Feminists flirt. French women not only enjoy flirtation, they expect it.The hint of sexuality that infuses flirtation is not perceived as a threat; on the contrary, it's perceived as a necessary expression of difference.
Men also ask women out in France. The idea of a woman pursuing a man there? Simply unheard of. Ridiculous. Unnecessary.
Yet, my French friend Christelle Laffin, an adorable French journo living in America, just sold a book in France about her time in Los Angeles. The title? "No Sex In Zee City." And that's pretty much what she experienced. Here she is, an adorable, accomplished, nice, smart, fun, cultured girl -- and then there's another friend of mine who reminds me of a young Sophia Loren, and other equally desirable women -- and American men won't even approach them, let alone ask them out. Totally different experience in France -- one men here would do well to emulate.
... so if the French know better than us, why couldn't your "adorable" friend "finesse" herself a date?
Why didn't American men respond to a cute, flirtatious woman who didn't send out feminist anti-male death-rays?
Ben-David at September 4, 2009 4:08 AM
50 year old baker flirts with 28 year old girl while serving her. In France I guess the girl would go along with it. In the end know that it just flirting, if she is lucky she gets an extra bun out of it. In America and Canada the girl would roll her eyes, not respond, then later yak to her friends say what a dirty old man the baker is and how he wanted to...... Heck I would not be surprised to here of a sexual harassment suit later.
Also many men do not flirt in public, I think is they learn that it can only be done at bars or places that people are supposed to look for love. Anywhere else can get you in trouble or harranged at.
John Paulson at September 4, 2009 4:31 AM
Right.
Know why? Because you have NO idea what kind of reaction you'll get.
I think I finally understand the appeal of online dating. Everyone knows what they are there for, so there's no misinterpreting of botched signs.
Flirting has been bred out of the American woman.
Either that, or like I said elsewhere, I'm too dumb to pick up on it.
brian at September 4, 2009 4:50 AM
Flirting has been bred out of the American woman.
Good gods, I hope not!! What the hell have I been doing all this time then?? lol!
Plenty of women still flirt, and are damn good at it. The problem could be that many men try to bring it to the next level, which is where many women don't want it to go. There is nothing wrong with harmless flirting. Sometimes the signals get read wrong though, and I think that's what creates problems and bruised egos. There is an art to flirting; some people just don't get it, though. Not every overture is a come-on. And therein lies the confusion.
Of course, I could be totally wrong. YMMV
o.O
Flynne at September 4, 2009 6:34 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/09/04/the_french_migh.html#comment-1666290">comment from FlynneFlynne, there are more women in this country who are clueless about flirting...which is why I printed this letter -- the column that's currently top of the pile:
http://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/09/buddy-language.html
An excerpt from my response:
Amy Alkon at September 4, 2009 6:38 AM
... so if the French know better than us, why couldn't your "adorable" friend "finesse" herself a date?
Why didn't American men respond to a cute, flirtatious woman who didn't send out feminist anti-male death-rays?
American men often don't ask you out. They just think about it. I blame feminism -- which takes the tendency some men have to be wimpy and avoid rejection, and makes it a virtue (don't be aggressive! i.e. Don't be male...being male is a form of rape!)
Amy Alkon at September 4, 2009 6:41 AM
I'm curious- since French women and men are so flirtatious, is there a higher occurence of cheating? Furthermore, are the French a lot more open minded about affairs?
Flirting all the time, especially with attracive strangers,sometimes generates false chemistry. I think that if I had all kinds of flirtations with men that displayed open desire for me- I might be led astray a little easier than normal. It would be too tempting! Feeling sexually attractive and seeing the lust reflected in someone elses eys creates such a high....how could cheating not be a big issue?! We're only human! And yes, I know we are supposed to be responsible adults but passion often mutes the voice of reason.
shouldbworking at September 4, 2009 6:45 AM
Men who get that flirting is the verbal equivalent of a caress, not an ass-grab, do just fine!
Jody Tresidder at September 4, 2009 6:50 AM
Yeah I read that, Amy, and most of the responses too, which is why I didn't need to repsond there! But here's the thing, I think you were spot-on in your reply. I've been nothing but disappointed with men I had to pursue. So I stopped. The guy I've got now is the best ever. He knew he wanted me, and wouldn't take 'No' for an answer. I knew I wanted him, but made him wait for a while, because I knew he wouldn't want me for long if I made it too easy for him. Voila! Going on 6 years, and it's still amazing!
Flynne at September 4, 2009 7:01 AM
I don't think the current sexual harassment regime helps any. So, flirting at work is out, unless you don't mind risking your job if anything gets taken the wrong way. Things will always be taken the wrong way by someone, sometime, intentionally or accidentally.
Having made this mess for ourselves, we Americans are really not entitled to complain about it.
MarkD at September 4, 2009 7:35 AM
"He knew he wanted me, and wouldn't take 'No' for an answer. "
Well there yu go. why would yuo expect anyone raised on "No means no." to "not take no for an answer'?
"Men who get that flirting is the verbal equivalent of a caress, not an ass-grab, do just fine!"
Yes. The Free Love ear confused a lot of people and distorted the culture on that point.
Jim at September 4, 2009 7:36 AM
ear = era. Hmmmm, i wonder what a free love ear would be used for.
Jim at September 4, 2009 7:37 AM
Flynne - no offense but you come from a different generation.
I won't even waste time on "hard to get". I just assume that any kind of push away is "no" and move on.
I cannot read nonverbal signals worth a damn, and I don't speak "hint".
If there's no clear signal of interest, I don't even bother wasting my effort.
brian at September 4, 2009 7:38 AM
>>Hmmmm, i wonder what a free love ear would be used for.
Same as in town, Jim:)
Jody Tresidder at September 4, 2009 7:39 AM
Oh, brian, honey, I totally understand, but if you never make more of an effort, how will you ever know? Sometimes we'll send a subtle signal that we suppose is very clear, but maybe it gets lost in translation. I dunno.
Jim, he DID take no for an answer, but was persistant in his pursuit. NO means NO, unless it means MAYBE, and I know that's hard to understand for some guys, but it is what it is. When you're pawing at a woman's shirt and she says NO!! that's when you back away, fast and far. When you're asking a woman out and she says 'no', but smiles, you wait a little while, then ask her again. You don't beg, plead or threaten. You just back off a little. It's an art, like I said, and some guys are like a bull in a china shop. You've got to have a little more finesse than that.
Flynne at September 4, 2009 7:45 AM
>>I cannot read nonverbal signals worth a damn, and I don't speak "hint".
Then pucker up, buttercup!
Any better, brian?:)
Jody Tresidder at September 4, 2009 7:45 AM
Flynne - men do not DO subtle. I consider the "no with a smile" your talking about to being jerked around, so I move on. Wait a little and then ask again? What on earth for? So she can reject me again? Feh. I'll find a women who's interested.
Bill
Bill McNutt at September 4, 2009 7:54 AM
When I was younger, we called gals who feigned interest without really having any "teases". Guys would figure out pretty quickly that such gals, like shouldbworking, got a rush from first advancing and then withdrawing the suggestion of sexual possibility. The gals were simply testing their worth on the dating market by seeing who bit on the bait. Once a group of guys identified a gal as such, they had little pleasant to say about her.
Guys understandably get a little annoyed with that game as teenagers. And I don't blame them if they opt out of playing it even after adulthood sets in. The stakes are supposed to be lower later on, as people come to understand that flirting is just flirting.
But women want the ability to sledgehammer the ugly dude who won't take a fast "no" for an answer. And women today certainly have that sledgehammer. I watch women I know say hurtful things about guys who show an interest, often to their face. Those same gals often still want to enjoy the romance novel thrill of the extended chase by Mr. Hot Dude. The guys thus bear the risk of social opprobrium in sorting out which box they fall into.
In sum, the social stakes got too high for men to harmlessly flirt, partly due to female rudeness, so guys don't really want to take that risk too often. So I understand perfectly why guys ignore interest signals from females when out in society. You get fried a few times, you stop touching the stove.
And in the workplace?! Yeah, well, &@#$% that idea. When I was younger and vulnerable to it, I saw guys' jobs get yanked for unbelieveably petty stuff. Any man with bills to pay that matter and a brain avoids flirting at work. After seeing sexual harassment charges crash into young mens' lives, I understand perfectly why guys ignore interest signals from female co-workers. If you ever see another fellow get fried in oil on that particular stove, you stay away from it.
What I don't understand, though, is when women got even more forward at work and elsewhere. Forward women in high school and college were one thing. But I once had a co-worker rub my abs in a hallway, cooing at "the ripples". And women felt free to comment on male coworkers' asses in a meeting I was in once. And this was a Fortune 500 professional department--Ivy League people. I could go on, but the number of times females said or did inappropriate things outnumbered the guys by a noticable margin. I could not imagine rubbing the anatomy of a woman in the office without express invitiation or commenting on the relative "assets" of coworkers in a meeting.
Again, I think the risks to men have resulted in behavioral changes that are entirely reasonable for men. Women have not gotten the same memo, it seems.
As for me personally, I am sorry if women I don't know get a thrill off of some harmless flirting or something and me not playing denies them that. Seriously. Sounds like a simple interaction by me could make a woman's day in a low-effort way. But I just have other things concerning me when I am out and about. Am I missing out on something by not engaging in the sly banter and coy looks? Maybe, but I don't feel any worse off for it, so I doubt my time is better spent doing that than, say, posting a comment. Besides, as I noted, the few times you would get scornful looks from the gal would certainly sour the practice enough to prevent me from doing it much.
Spartee at September 4, 2009 7:55 AM
To any young men reading this, take it from you Uncle Spartee: ignore completely what Flynne is suggesting. She means well, but her advice is not useful for the world you face.
Yes, you may miss out on a few romances as a result, but trust me, when a gal doesn't perkily respond with enthusiasm to your first overture, move on. (No bitterness, though.) After serving years ago as a campus judiciary official while a student, I realized that getting slapped with a stalker label is easier than I could have imagined, and it will ruin things for you, important things you worked hard for. There are plenty of attractive, willing females out there who will not put you at risk for embarassment or worse by playing coy games. Find them. Date them. And let the coy ones sit home on Friday night, wondering why that nice cute boy didn't try a second, third and fourth time?
Spartee at September 4, 2009 8:03 AM
Preach it Spartee! Amen! Hallaulja!
Bill McNutt at September 4, 2009 8:12 AM
Well said, Spartee.
What worked for those who grew up in the 60s and 70s is not going to work for those who grew up in the 80s and 90s.
And although the mental poison of gender feminism that was spread like manure over the 80s and into the 90s is starting to dissipate, there's still a lot of women (who are now approaching 40) for whom that is still the operational weltanschauung.
In some ways, it's probably easier for me at 40 to be dating 30 year olds than it would have been at 30 to be dating the 20 year olds.
I'll test that theory and get back to you.
brian at September 4, 2009 8:12 AM
>>Yes, you may miss out on a few romances as a result, but trust me, when a gal doesn't perkily respond with enthusiasm to your first overture, move on.
Spartee,
You make a lot of sense.
Of course, there are two types of flirting (as you go on to say).
Flirting as a curtain-raiser to, hopefully, the full monty.
And flirting AS the performance itself.
Neither are entirely risk-free.
Jody Tresidder at September 4, 2009 8:20 AM
"i wonder what a free love ear would be used for"
aural sex?
Steamer at September 4, 2009 8:50 AM
Even though I'm not particularly good at reading nonverbal signals myself, I have noticed that more flirting goes on in factories and warehouses with women employees than in Office environments. I'm reasonably sure that more of the women in the blue-collar environments are not radical feminists, which probably accounts for a lot of that.
WayneB at September 4, 2009 8:50 AM
Spartee is spot on.
The Former Banker at September 4, 2009 8:53 AM
This shit is so silly. If France were a sexual paradise, WE'D KNOW.
Crid [CridComment @ gmail] at September 4, 2009 8:54 AM
"Jim, he DID take no for an answer, but was persistant in his pursuit. "
That and the rest of your comment makes sense, Jody, and as a side note, that's why I like cats more than dogs, but as Spartee lays out in great detail, your advice is out of date.
"But I once had a co-worker rub my abs in a hallway, cooing at "the ripples"."
And why didn't you slap her face for "getting fresh"? Wait, don't tell me....let me guess. It has to with the way the legal system systematically priveleges men and oppresses women.
"And women felt free to comment on male coworkers' asses in a meeting I was in once. And this was a Fortune 500 professional department--Ivy League people."
It makes these little entitlement prncesses feel all transgressive and empowered. They think they are breaking free of some kind of "niceness" they never really had in the first place.
"I could go on, but the number of times females said or did inappropriate things outnumbered the guys by a noticable margin."
This simply cannot be true and you are risking beng sent to Re-education for even saying such a thing. Or losing your job at least.
Steamer, that's a good save.
Jim at September 4, 2009 9:35 AM
"Of course, there are two types of flirting (as you go on to say).
Flirting as a curtain-raiser to, hopefully, the full monty.
And flirting AS the performance itself." JodyT
aye, but telling the difference would be the complex variable. It is that way because things don't get decided until the moment they do... Flirting well with the girl, that suddenly becomes an ice queen. There is no roadmap or guestimation that really works to know which it will be, you just pays your money and takes your chances. Until you decide it isn't worth the money or the chances. The thing is that persistance isn't well rewarded, because you are persuing a blackbox. There is no way to estimate what will come out of it.
Amy, that is the difference with the french as you point out... but this isn't a guy thing to solve.
Guys here are similar to guys there. If french guys came over here for a while, they would stop persuing the way they were used to, because they wouldn't know the probability of reaction. Could be a giggle, a slap. Or the Police. Maybe days later.
The difference between a good outcome and a bad one is quite large. Is any wonder that guys are a little gun-shy?
SwissArmyD at September 4, 2009 9:43 AM
Flirting, in my opinion, is just not an American trait. We just don't do it well. I think that it is a Latin thing, because both men and women from Argentina, Italy, Spain and France seem to do it so effortlessly.
And the French in particular seem to just enjoy flirting and sex more than Americans, not just the practice but whole idea of it.
Two weeks ago when I was on vacation at a friend's house in France I was asked if Americans talk about sex or "cul" around the dinner table like the French do. I had to answer not really.
belle de ville at September 4, 2009 10:06 AM
Belle de ville,
Yet it's the British, of course, who seethe most at the notion the French excel at all the erotic arts.
There's a classic satire How to be an Alien - written by a Hungarian wit called George Mikes in 1946 that (I think) has seldom, if ever, been out of print in the UK.
One of its most quoted observations was: "Continental people have sex-life; the English have hot-water bottles".
The author apologized in a later book, saying he realized it was no longer true. Because, obviously, most of the English had switched to electric blankets.
Jody Tresidder at September 4, 2009 10:41 AM
Spartee is indeed spot on, saying better what I was trying to say in the other thread. A lot of women today quite enjoy the flirting but don't know how to give good brush off signals or don't care to on purpose. They often use the whole deal as an ego trip and then get indignant that a guy dared to call her after she gave him her number. I see a lot of that in online dating. The gal is testing her market value. There are a lot of wimpy gals who won't be simple and direct in stating that they're not interested.
Sio at September 4, 2009 11:06 AM
Amy@ "I blame feminism -- which takes the tendency some men have to be wimpy and avoid rejection, and makes it a virtue (don't be aggressive! i.e. Don't be male...being male is a form of rape!)"
Well said. Saves me the trouble (pleasure?) of a good rant.
Look around. Men, and younger men especially, now have sexual leverage never before imaginable. They have every right to expect that the "post-feminist" women they date will pay -- and still put out.
Ask yourself, who has been "liberated" by feminism?
Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind. Feminism has been sowing disdain and disrespect for men for quite some time -- all for women's supposed "benefit." What should we expect?
I do NOT celebrate this development. My beautiful, charming 26-year old daughter can't seem to find a responsible adult to date -- a man who doesn't look to have a woman around as an "F-buddy" for when he's not hangin' with his "buds," and who isn't completely self-absorbed.
Pathetic for everybody.
Jay R at September 4, 2009 11:08 AM
Flirting seems most likely to succeed when both parties share a cultural background.
Fortunately, today we have sophisticated computer programs that make surprisingly accurate predictions about romantic compatibility.
Pseudonym at September 4, 2009 12:02 PM
Hmmmm, i wonder what a free love ear would be used for.
Posted by: Jim
Shin shi Shin shi
http://www.hulu.com/watch/4135/saturday-night-live-patio-lovers
About 2 minutes in
lujlp at September 4, 2009 12:04 PM
I remember once going to a contractor’s convention down in Southern California for work. These were men who built up their business's from nothing - or worked their ways up from apprentices. Really solid people from all over the country.
It was a black tie affair - and I was in absolute heaven, I tell ya! Flirtatious behaviors were in full swing for everyone.
If there was one time I thought the world made sense, it was right there that night at The Crown Plaza.
Being in the presence of these unapologetically manly MEN, and GENTLEMEN – was intoxicating.
The cigars, the off-colored (some may say sexist) jokes, the scotch, their wicked laughs and open mouthed stares when a pretty girl passes – all of this, while also still being offered an arm (I never was too good in heels) when walking across slippery marble floors, or being offered a jacket when it got cold, or having men scramble to open doors.
I think a lot of the younger ladies there were like me, simply, in awe. “So this is what it feels like”! I think that night solitified things for me - I wasn't crazy, they are out there.
I’ll take an American man over a French man any day.
Feebie at September 4, 2009 12:29 PM
"Two weeks ago when I was on vacation at a friend's house in France I was asked if Americans talk about sex or "cul" around the dinner table like the French do. "
Well there's an interesting little linguistic nugget. Apparently the French refer to sex as "anus".
Now I understand why French women are so much more sensible about things. The know they have competition.
Jim at September 4, 2009 12:36 PM
Feebie, I gotta tell ya, I was about to sigh for the lack of "real men", when bingo! you posted, and my faith was renewed! Thanks for that!
Flynne at September 4, 2009 1:21 PM
What I don't understand, though, is when women got even more forward at work and elsewhere.
I've seen this as well, and I suspect that it's because they know that they'll be protected from the consequences. If the target of their attention reciprocates in a way that makes them uncomfortable, they can cry harassment. The men know this and so they just take it. It's basically a form of bullying.
Mike at September 4, 2009 1:40 PM
>> Feebie, I gotta tell ya,
You betcha.
And I got to thinking a bit while out in my yard-
Another thing on French-men...when they can fight their OWN fucking wars, pay their own fucking bills and give an honest days work for an honest day's pay, then maybe I'd consider changing my mind.
They live like a bunch of spoiled, pansy-ass, ungrateful brats considering the blood, sweat, and tears shed on their behalf by OUR real American Men a couple of generations back. I just CAN'T get passed that!
Til' then, I'll stick with my own - thank you very much!!!
Feebie at September 4, 2009 2:04 PM
past not passed
Feebie at September 4, 2009 2:05 PM
The problem with American women can be summed up quite succinctly in a quote from Marlene Dietrich: "Women are always trying to change a man. And once they've changed him, they don't like him anymore."
Doh-San at September 4, 2009 2:36 PM
The big elephant in the room for guys is not the flirting issue and the downsides, but knowing what "your league is". That is quite hard to do these days, but knowing that useful bit of info can save quite a bit of anguish.
Crusader at September 4, 2009 3:04 PM
Crusader - Act as if...you are.
Feebie at September 4, 2009 3:12 PM
On the contrary:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26631462/
Crusader at September 4, 2009 3:16 PM
Crusader -
There are so many counterexamples as to render your position moot.
To wit: Nancy Pelosi is a grandmother.
brian at September 4, 2009 3:21 PM
brian - I don't know how pointing out Nancy Pelosi procreated proves anything. So has Barbara Mikulski.
Crusader at September 4, 2009 3:24 PM
Or if you're a short, ugly looking troll-like man like Bernie Ecclestone, the one way to get a super-hot supermodel to marry you is to be a billioniare...
Crusader at September 4, 2009 3:25 PM
Okay, Crusader, As you wish...I guess your screwed then. Sorry!
Feebie at September 4, 2009 3:29 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/09/04/the_french_migh.html#comment-1666413">comment from JimJim, your French is worse than mine: "I was asked if Americans talk about sex or "cul" around the dinner table like the French do. " Well there's an interesting little linguistic nugget. Apparently the French refer to sex as "anus"."
cul is ass.
trou du cul is asshole.
You were being asked, in "argot," whether Americans talk about getting ass around the dinner table like the French do. What did you say?
Amy Alkon at September 4, 2009 6:26 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/09/04/the_french_migh.html#comment-1666414">comment from FeebieI’ll take an American man over a French man any day.
I also prefer American men. Gregg is very American. Worked on an assembly line at one point, man's man, wears a hat well (like a man from another time), does what he says he will, does the right thing when nobody's looking, can always be counted on. Always.
Amy Alkon at September 4, 2009 6:30 PM
You definately have a keeper, Amy. :)
Feebie at September 4, 2009 6:34 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/09/04/the_french_migh.html#comment-1666417">comment from FeebieThanks, Feebie. I sure lucked out. I also spent most of my 30s alone, tossing guy after guy after first date after first date. I also scare guys who aren't man's men. Terrify, even.
PS You sound like you get it, too.
Amy Alkon at September 4, 2009 6:37 PM
My American women friends always ask me why I don't date and my usual reply is there is no one I can find who's compatible. Translated this means finding anyone who is willing to put forth even the smallest amount of effort. However, when I'm traveling in the EU, and not just in France, I always find fun, charming, very feminine company who seem to enjoy my company as well. American women are for the most part none of these things yet think they hold the ultimate trump card. Oh, well, too bad, but it doesn't matter to me. Air France flies 10 non-stops a day. And whenever they ask me as a man what's wrong with men I just smile, shrug, and shake my head.
jon at September 4, 2009 6:49 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/09/04/the_french_migh.html#comment-1666422">comment from jonThese women I'm friends with -- the Europeans, mostly journalists -- are smart, employed, own property they've bought and paid for in Europe, have full lives, housing, cars, great jobs, and they're warm, fun, interesting, well-rounded people. If I were a lesbian and they were, too, I'd date them. I experienced what they do -- that guys didn't grow some balls and at least try. When a man comes along who's willing to try, I always respect him for it, and often say so.
I flirt with everybody. Met two supercool cyclist guys the other day at my fave cafe because I made a crack about how great it is to see men in tight pants in the morning. Sat down with them and talked for a while.
Amy Alkon at September 4, 2009 7:14 PM
I find this incredibly funny. The French romantic, flirtatious? I laughed inside. Seriously.
Try living in Brazil, Europeans are soooo coooooooooooolddd.
Ppen at September 4, 2009 8:19 PM
Oh and all my European friends hate France/French and dont find them anywhere alluring.
Ppen at September 4, 2009 8:20 PM
McArdle on the magic of Europe:
"Without the pretty buildings, what would often most strike Americans is the cramped space and a succession of petty inconveniences."
Crid [CridComment @ gmail] at September 4, 2009 10:37 PM
So where are all these tired, poor, huddled masses of tragically under-serviced French women? Did I just hit the wrong Press Club parties?
Paul Hrissikopoulos at September 4, 2009 10:46 PM
"Look around. Men, and younger men especially, now have sexual leverage never before imaginable. They have every right to expect that the "post-feminist" women they date will pay -- and still put out." - Jay R
Indeed, one of the reasons why things like false rape allegations, draconian sexual harassment policies and the like are such a problem today is simply because a lot of women are unhappy with the idea that men should have more sexual freedom, so they support these measures as a way of punishing men. These measures really have little or nothing to do with stopping actual crime, harassment or assaults. It is simply a vendetta against male sexuality.
A lot of false rape allegations occur in situations where a woman sleeps with a guy and then feels used, or he doesn't call, or doesn't want a relationship.
Funnily enough, this campaign of ideological terrorism doesn't inspire me to love and romance!
Nick S at September 5, 2009 4:23 AM
I think a lot of the male-bashing is worse in English-speaking countries than in other parts. The only exception is possibly some of the Scandinavian countries where feminism is heavily entrenched.
Whenever I travel from the UK to France, this is one of the first things I notice. The women in France are a lot more pleasant and attractive. By contrast, the women in the UK seem to be not only surly and contemptuous of men, but are often quite unattractive and overweight as well. British feminists also seem to be particularly vicious, judging by what I follow of their press.
Nick S at September 5, 2009 5:20 AM
Amy, just something you might want to be aware of regarding Ollivier's book:
http://pollyvousfrancais.blogspot.com/2009/08/what-you-forgot-to-credit-my-blog.html
deja pseu at September 5, 2009 10:37 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/09/04/the_french_migh.html#comment-1666482">comment from deja pseuI know Polly, and wrote her a sympathetic note when I saw her Tweet about that. Debra's book is still good, but Polly should have been given credit, and effort should have been made to do so. And not much effort is needed. All you have to do is Google a sentence from a blog item in quotes.
This same thing happened to me -- a WSJ reporter wrote a piece centering around one of my pranks of a rude cell phoner, and called me "the blogger," while mentioning the name of the woman I pranked. This after interviewing me for maybe an hour. I was very upset -- and rightfully so -- and so is Polly.
Amy Alkon at September 5, 2009 10:44 AM
I consider myself a world-class flirt, BTW. When one isn't a conventional beauty, one learns other ways to be attractive. But unfortunately I've found that a fairly large subset of American men interpret even mild flirting as "I want to fuck you now," and don't know how to respond appropriately. Older men tend to be more attuned to casual flirting, and can respond in kind.
deja pseu at September 5, 2009 11:15 AM
I kinda think that a portion of this change in relationship behaviors can be attributed to the feminization of Western culture in general, too. We're becoming a culture which doesn't like action half as much as talking about feelings. We don't value blue-collar work nearly as much as we do useless "liberal arts" degrees. Dueling and public fighting of any sort is discouraged and maligned. Masculine reactions are increasingly considered neanderthal-like.
Basically, it feels like we're telling men they can't be men.
So they respond by quelling themselves to a ridiculous degree, and now the next generations of men in particular are now underachievers both professionally and personally. At least that's what I'm seeing among guys my age and below (for those who don't remember, I'm a bit younger than most on these boards at twenty-seven). In retaliation, the ladies have become increasingly aggressive, less patient, and (seemingly contrary to their own actions) feel as though they're being victimized every second of the day.
Because men are being told they're "inferior" from a very young age, they're acting it. Women, on the other hand, are being told that they have to take on the world or it will take them, and so overcompensate on their end. It's weird, to see the difference between guys of my father's age and then look at all the guys my brother's age. The gap is so wide!
Of course, these are just my anecdotal observations; your results may vary.
cornerdemon at September 5, 2009 12:30 PM
>Yes, you may miss out on a few romances as a result, but trust me, when a gal doesn't perkily respond with enthusiasm to your first overture, move on.
When I perkily respond with enthusiasm, the guy loses interest because I'm too easy. No thanks. I'm going to try it Amy's way now.
Monica M. at September 5, 2009 4:52 PM
I flirt with women all the time. It's something that I fall into very easily when dealing with women. But it's not an overtly sexual type of flirting. It's just a manner of being friendly and a little playful.
a fairly large subset of American men interpret even mild flirting as "I want to fuck you now,"
That's what I imagine a lot of women are afraid of when they're engaged by a man who's being flirtatious. Where men face the risk of Spartee's 'sledgehammer', women face the potential that they're encouraging someone who is going to become lewd and aggressive.
Unfortunately these risks may amplify each other - polite men refrain from flirting, leaving it to boorish ones who confirm women's fears of flirting, motivating them to react negatively to men who flirt.
Jack at September 5, 2009 4:58 PM
That's what I imagine a lot of women are afraid of when they're engaged by a man who's being flirtatious. Where men face the risk of Spartee's 'sledgehammer', women face the potential that they're encouraging someone who is going to become lewd and aggressive.
Isn't this proof that the whole mating ritual is fundamentally broken in America? I blame modern feminism, as well as misogynistic attitudes that poison the waters for all men. Of course in Africa it's worse with roving gangs of men randomly raping women wherever. So by comparison, American women have it good.
Crusader at September 5, 2009 7:29 PM
"Because men are being told they're "inferior" from a very young age, they're acting it."
The biggest factor separating the winners and losers in society generally is simply that the winners have permission to succeed and the losers don't. People who are successful are usually raised in family and social environments where they are given permission and confidence to succeed.
The bottom line is that females have been given permission to be successful, while males have not. Indeed, younger men have been brought up believing that male achievement is a form of injustice and oppression of women.
Nick S at September 5, 2009 7:53 PM
"The bottom line is that females have been given permission to be successful, while males have not. Indeed, younger men have been brought up believing that male achievement is a form of injustice and oppression of women."
That's one of the most important reasons why I homeschool my son.
Karen at September 7, 2009 8:42 PM
This hasn't been my experience, I find the people flirtier here than in France.
Actually, it depends on the context. I totally flirt with the fat old pizza guy here... and when homeless people say "How you doin' beautiful?" I toss out a nice smile/wink/whatever with my "Fine thanks, and you?" In France that backfired, when guys on the street (immigrants, not French) said hello, if I said hello back they followed me and touched my ass. It was awkward, but luckily I managed to slip away.
French women have a wall of coldness that they can put up on cue in a way I haven't seen on American women.
But I guess at dinner parties and stuff I've seen French women flirt. Men, too. All ages. Social flirting, nothing serious. But they do that here, too... I dunno, where are you guys from that the old people don't flirt?
Your friend had problems because the rules are slightly different and she needed to learn them. I can't even describe the rules... body language stuff.
NicoleK at September 10, 2009 7:35 AM
.... on another note, isn't the marriage rate lower in France than here?
NicoleK at September 10, 2009 7:43 AM
As a Goddess of Manners, what are your views on authors (like this one) poaching liberally from bloggers without credit?
http://pollyvousfrancais.blogspot.com/2009/08/what-you-forgot-to-credit-my-blog.html#comments
http://pollyvousfrancais.blogspot.com/2009/09/what-french-women-know-part-one.html#comments
Laure at September 11, 2009 9:18 PM
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