Let The Smart People In
America's like an exclusive club where the bouncers wave in the hoi polloi but keep all the hot young models lined up shivering outside.
We shouldn't be judging a peasant immigrant the same way we do those who have something more than their crop-picking or factory-working ability to bring to this country. Farhad Manjoo writes on Slate that America can't be the world's tech leader without immigration reform:
Andy Grove, Intel's former chairman and CEO, was born in Hungary in 1936 and immigrated to the United States in his 20s. Jerry Yang, co-founder of Yahoo, was born in Taipei, Taiwan, and moved to San Jose, Calif., with his family as a child. Sergey Brin, who co-founded Google, came to the United States from his native Russia when he was 6. They aren't special cases: About one-quarter of American tech companies are founded in part or entirely by foreigners. The proportion in Silicon Valley is even higher--a recent survey (PDF) by Vivek Wadhwa, an engineering professor at Duke University, showed that more than 52 percent of Valley startups were founded or co-founded by people born outside of the United States. According to Wadhwa's research, immigrant-founded firms produced $52 billion in sales and employed 450,000 workers in 2005.Paul Graham insists that those numbers could be much higher. Graham, a partner at Y Combinator, a venture-capital firm that provides early-stage funding to startups, calls the U.S. government's immigration restrictions "the biggest constraint on the number of new startups that get created in the U.S." In May, Graham, whose essays on business and science are popular in V.C. circles, floated a novel idea: He wants the government to create a new immigration class for founders of new firms. Every year, Graham's "Founder Visa" program would let in 10,000 immigrants who've shown a plan for starting a new company. These people would be barred from working at existing companies--in other words, they wouldn't be "taking American jobs." Instead, Graham argues, they'd be creating jobs: "If we assume four people per startup, which is probably an overestimate, that's 2,500 new companies. Each year," Graham writes. "They wouldn't all grow as big as Google, but out of 2,500 some would come close."
One should also keep in mind just why this is. America is currently totally anti-achievement.
If you send a retarded youngster to school, the school will spend massive amounts of time and effort to educate him or her to his or her maximum capacity.
If you send a gifted youngster to a typical public school, the school will do little or nothing to stretch his or her limits. In fact, excellence encounters not only lack of support but often outright hostility.
Don't ask this question. You will be branded as elistest (if you're lucky) or racist (the great discussion ender). Nonetheless: Who will return the most to society? Where does the investment of time and money make the most sense?
bradley13 at September 16, 2009 1:15 AM
Canada did something like the "Founder's visa" around the time that Hong Kong was absorbed back into China.
Of course, what it would mean is that founders would set up companies in the US, enrich themselves and a few pals, and then send the real work back to India and China where the labor is cheap.
Aba at September 16, 2009 1:47 AM
Uhhhh... in 2 out of the 3 examples cited the immigrants came AS CHILDREN.
I doubt they had business plans - or the opportunity to demonstrate talent.
Otherwise they might not have come.
Amy - how many billions-worth of innovation - some of it life saving - has our own tribe contributed to America?
Yet most of us were ragged, unlettered shtetl-peasants fleeing pogroms. The WASPs were horrified - remember?
We can certainly favor candidates with skills we need.
But anyone who follows the rules should be able to come.
And keeping our markets free will do more than any government incentive to keep America the matchmaker of choice between capital and innovation.
Ben-David at September 16, 2009 2:53 AM
Ben, WASPs are horrifoed at everything.
My reaserch show that if they arent horrifed at least three times a week they will die
lujlp at September 16, 2009 3:20 AM
@Ben-David: "But anyone who follows the rules should be able to come."
As long as the rules aren't stupid. Of my wife's nieces and nephews in the Philippines, I count three nurses, an engineer, and a medical student. U.S. immigration policy towards Filipinos is extremely restrictive. The only one who has much chance of coming here is the medical student, and then only after years of experience. Meanwhile, the Saudis got two of the nurses, and the UK got the other one. The U.S. had the chance to get some skilled folks over here, but wound up with zippy.
By the way, Lujlp: my research shows that one WASP righteous indignation counts for two horrors. Therefore, a WASP with one righteous indignation and one horror per week will likely thrive.
old rpm daddy at September 16, 2009 5:28 AM
We should let the good-looking ones in.
Crid [CridComment @ gmail] at September 16, 2009 6:30 AM
Hey, don't look at me, I brought my own. I was limited to one wife, no girlfriends allowed, so I chose the best.
Graham's essays are worth your time. Thanks for the reminder to go back and read his new ones.
MarkD at September 16, 2009 6:46 AM
We should allow unlimited immigration of people with college degrees. If necessary, maintain a list of colleges whose degrees qualify.
We should also make life easier for small businesses. Cut their taxes, reform health care and other rules so they're not penalized, and in general make it easier for them to operate and be profitable. Among other things this means repealing CPSIA.
Whenever I see the American Express commercial touting their support for small businesses, I think "Too bad the government doesn't agree."
Pseudonym at September 16, 2009 6:55 AM
Oh, Bradley, you've touched a nerve!
I studied education at 2 different schools (I started at my fallback, but when a bad accident made me take time off I reapplied to my top choice and got in so I switched), and NONE of them had any classes on teaching the gifted. They kept insisting, "Everyone is gifted!" which is true, to a point, but some are capable of more than others. My bringing this up pissed everyone off and got me accused of elitism, nazi eugenics, and all that jazz.
I did take a class on teaching to different levels, and we got to choose what our "Special case" was that we needed to accomdate, so I chose the gifted, which the professor begrudgingly accepted.
Even finding recent studies was difficult, as I researched my project.
I know too many kids who either ended up with horrible habits because they were able to coast through for so long, and then they crashed later in life when they were expected to actually do work, or people who ended up as highly successful, but bitter and angry at the world.
Let me tell you, at the Ed schools I attended, no one is interested in the gifted. The ed students make disparaging remarks about them.
PISSES ME OFF!!!
Result: The top mathematicians are from Russia, France, anywhere but the US.
NicoleK at September 16, 2009 7:01 AM
NicoleK - yes, exactly. Lake Wobegone, everyone is above average. And I have this bridge I want to sell you.
The fact is, different kids need a different education. Most kids do not need college prep. By trying to pretend they do, one has removed the very material that would be useful for the above average and gifted kids.
Meanwhile, the average kids ought to be training for jobs or learning trades. Instead, they get shoved into these watered down college prep courses that lead them to watered down liberal arts degrees.
This is the point I see them (I teach technical courses in college) - when one of these lost souls somehow winds up in one of my courses, I am always shocked at their utter lack of competence. And they are always shocked to find that an instructor will actually issue a failing grade. Saves them time wasting further semesters in a career they are unsuited to...
bradley13 at September 16, 2009 7:17 AM
I've done a lot of complaining about the public educational system, so today I'll branch out.
My daughter switched this year from private to public high school. It's been absolutely fantastic from the day we went to register. We had a meeting with her guidance counselor, who explained the schools' 2 tracks: college and what used to be called technical training, and then allowed us to select her courses.
So my sophomore child is in Advanced Honors Chemistry, Geometry and English, and in AP World History (seniors) and French III. And Drama.
She's surrounded by like-minded students, and her teachers are absolutely fantastic. Much better than at the private school. With a wide selection of boys and football to boot!
If it can be done in Murfreesboro, Tennessee, it can be replicated elsewhere.
Robin at September 16, 2009 7:54 AM
>>or people who ended up as highly successful, but bitter and angry at the world.
NicoleK,
I agree that standard education can be horribly harsh on the gifted, but I'm not sure I follow why the highly successful remain "bitter and angry"?
Jody Tresidder at September 16, 2009 7:56 AM
Jody Tressider...I think the smart people who are "bitter and angry" are often those that are successful but not hugely successful...say, a tenured professor making $150K with great benefits (thereby doing far better than most Americans) but angry because he knows that there are people without PhDs, and maybe without his precise kind of intelligence, who are making 10 times as much.
Far more bitter and angry, of course, is the individual who never makes it to tenured professor but barely survives as an adjunct professor...
david foster at September 16, 2009 9:43 AM
I agree with Crid.
i-holier-than-thou at September 16, 2009 9:52 AM
angry because he knows that there are people without PhDs, and maybe without his precise kind of intelligence, who are making 10 times as much
Like prison guards in California, making $100K a year with a B.A.
Amy Alkon at September 16, 2009 10:00 AM
Upstate NY isn't CA, but $100K isn't what it used to be. Now $100K after taxes, then we're talking.
I suppose I underachieved by conventional standards, but I just think about how it could have turned out and I can't stop thinking I did OK.
If I could do it all over again, I wouldn't change much. Well, I wouldn't buy that VW Rabbit car from Hell, but other than that...
MarkD at September 16, 2009 11:28 AM
Ha! David, I'm an adjunct. I call myself a housewife whose hobby is teaching French, because that is basically what I am. If I wasn't married, I'd have to do something else. The job does give me summers off to follow my husband when he travels, and I love it, and I get a nifty badge that says "FACULTY" on it. But yeah, if I were an actual professor I'd be upset. We have a woman like that in our department, with a PhD and everything, who desperately wants tenure track or at least full-time, but who didn't get promoted when there was an opening.
I used to teach high school math, where the pay was better (though not good either) and I got benefits. People like me were the reason Bradley got stuck with students unable to pass his classes... we basically had to bend over backwards to make sure everyone passed... and even giving too many Cs were frowned upon, so the material had to be watered down or we had to chase after students and make them do their work or tutor them after class, or they had to hire private tutors, and they passed the classes even if they shouldn't have. Teachers face a lot of pressure from parents whose little angels deserve an A or B even though they didn't study, acted out in class, and didn't do their homework.
Frankly, the amount of knowledge a student has at a current "C" level shouldn't pass them... they do not have enough knowledge to continue to the next level. A "C" basically means they showed up and attempted their work.
As to why they are bitter, while all the tenured professors I know do make disparaging remarks about business people, there's also retroactive bitterness at how much they suffered as kids. Not the being picked on by the other kids... I mean, hell, who ISN'T bitter about that, but the treatment from adults and the time they wasted. A lot of the smarter folks I meet tend to be very distrustful of the world, almost paranoid.
NicoleK at September 16, 2009 11:53 AM
Ha! David, I'm an adjunct. I call myself a housewife whose hobby is teaching French, because that is basically what I am. If I wasn't married, I'd have to do something else. The job does give me summers off to follow my husband when he travels, and I love it, and I get a nifty badge that says "FACULTY" on it. But yeah, if I were an actual professor I'd be upset. We have a woman like that in our department, with a PhD and everything, who desperately wants tenure track or at least full-time, but who didn't get promoted when there was an opening.
I used to teach high school math, where the pay was better (though not good either) and I got benefits. People like me were the reason Bradley got stuck with students unable to pass his classes... we basically had to bend over backwards to make sure everyone passed... and even giving too many Cs were frowned upon, so the material had to be watered down or we had to chase after students and make them do their work or tutor them after class, or they had to hire private tutors, and they passed the classes even if they shouldn't have. Teachers face a lot of pressure from parents whose little angels deserve an A or B even though they didn't study, acted out in class, and didn't do their homework.
Frankly, the amount of knowledge a student has at a current "C" level shouldn't pass them... they do not have enough knowledge to continue to the next level. A "C" basically means they showed up and attempted their work.
As to why they are bitter, while all the tenured professors I know do make disparaging remarks about business people, there's also retroactive bitterness at how much they suffered as kids. Not the being picked on by the other kids... I mean, hell, who ISN'T bitter about that, but the treatment from adults and the time they wasted. A lot of the smarter folks I meet tend to be very distrustful of the world, almost paranoid.
NicoleK at September 16, 2009 11:53 AM
Jody said: "I agree that standard education can be horribly harsh on the gifted, but I'm not sure I follow why the highly successful remain "bitter and angry"?"
As one of the "bitter and angry", I'll answer that. I'm not highly successful, though, so take this as you will. I'm successful, mind you, in that I have a steady job, a stable household, and the fact that I don't have to live with my parents, so keep that in mind. As far as gifted, I was in Honors for English, Social Studies, and Biology, but I sucked at the hard sciences and maths.
School has not prepared me for life. I'm bitter and angry that I know all sorts of neat and trivial things (I can deconstruct the parts of a sentence, I know more about Shakespeare's personal life than he did, I know the different types of triangles, and I know some kickin' trivia about American History). But I'm angry because no one gave me the practical side of things. So I went for four years of college, only to find out that college is merely a "+" mark on a resume. It was, essentially, a waste of my time and money because it's hardly helped me find a career and none of it has helped me understand things like insurance, economics, or credit card terms. But everyone from my parents to teachers to Career Counselors assured me my crappy English degree was sure to get me a high-paying job with endless opportunities and prepare me for the good life.
And I'm bitter because I'm way more talented than quite a few of my coworkers, but I have no chance of promoting higher than where I'm at because I don't have a) two more years of college to do what I'm already doing now or b) not enough seniority. When I get really upset, I go hunting at those monster.com sites, and realize that I really can't cross over to anything that does better than $12/hour. Hell, the better secretarial jobs are out of my league!!
And that's because college is no longer seen as a place for the gifted and talented to go to further themselves, but as a kind of glorified high school. Like bradley13 implied when he said "Meanwhile, the average kids ought to be training for jobs or learning trades. Instead, they get shoved into these watered down college prep courses that lead them to watered down liberal arts degrees." So now we have a shortage of people who can be capable mechanics, plumbers, electricians, and carpenters (for example) because all those guys are spending time with me in my useless Anatomy of Plot seminar.
I don't mean to sound so put out that my own decision to pursue an English degree backfired. It's just that when you're 18, know what you like/are good at, and no one tells you different, it seems like a good idea at the time. Ten years later, I'm regretting it and there's no turning back the clock now.
cornerdemon at September 16, 2009 12:00 PM
We recently needed to hire another LAMP engineer(server-side web engineer, for you non-techies), as two engineers just isn't enough when you serve over 20 million pageviews a month and are building new features all the time. Had a hell of a time finding one who was competent, even in this economy when lots of people are looking for work. We wanted to hire a junior engineer, but they all sucked, so ended up spending more than we wanted to hire someone senior but skilled. Yeah, we could use a better system for getting smart, qualified people into the U.S.
Whatever at September 16, 2009 12:09 PM
Meanwhile, the average kids ought to be training for jobs or learning trades. Instead, they get shoved into these watered down college prep courses that lead them to watered down liberal arts degrees.
Yes. We always need skilled tradespeople. And you can't outsource plumbing, carpentry, or electrical work, cause these people have to come to your house.
However, a caveat. Even in the trades, average doesn't get you too far. I worked in my earlier days as a builder. The good carpenters, plumbers, welders and electricians were all pretty bright guys. They probably couldn't quote Proust or discuss Gravity's Rainbow, but these guys were doing tricky stuff that dumb folks couldn't pull off. Carpentry, especially, requires some comprehension of Trig if you work with curves at all. I loved working with them, learned a ton from the experience, even if I'm now all over edjumacated and earn my living typing on a small square silver thing.
But still, you don' t have to be book smart to work a good job and earn a good living. In the trades, a decent intellect and discipline will usually do it. And with a lot less stress and bullshit than most office jobs, too.
Whatever at September 16, 2009 12:38 PM
The Slate post mentions Andy Grove (Intel)...I'm pretty sure that when Grove came to the U.S., he didn't have an advanced degree, and he certainly wasn't a recognized expert in integrated circuit design (which didn't then exist)...he was just one more Eastern European refugee.
david foster at September 16, 2009 12:50 PM
I remember growing up I wanted to rule the world, that isnt a euphemism either. I literally had dreams of world domination, I had half a dozen schemes that probably wouldnt have worked, though would have caused a lot of chaos.
I stoped wanting to be a lawyer when I was 5, had an uncle who was a lawyer and I saw how much he hated it. Had asperations of being an archeologist as well, but the only thing you can really do with an anthropology degree these days is teach.
And given my high school history teacher gave an A to a girl whos report on Pocohontas was a fucking carbon copy of the Disney movie I'd rather kill myself then teach.
And quite frankly given people these days are more interested in soap operas going off the air, animal abusers getting new football contracts and what some petty singer has to say about a popularity contest with prize statues and could care less about the way our food is designed to make us fat and stupid sheep I cant hardly wait until yellowstone explodes, maybe the next incarnation of 'civilization' wont be such a depresing cesspool
lujlp at September 16, 2009 1:01 PM
Yet most of us were ragged, unlettered shtetl-peasants fleeing pogroms. The WASPs were horrified - remember?
So when you arrived in America, having escaped the pogroms, you were greeted by horrified WASPs? That's strange, seeing as the majority of citizens at the time were WASPs. I wonder why they'd allowed you to immigrate here, to naturalize, and to prosper through the institutions that they'd built.
Perhaps they were hoping that you'd grow up to be a fevered old bigot who'd spit on the goodwill of their ancestors.
Steve at September 16, 2009 5:06 PM
Whatever's comment exposes one of the problems I see and is somewhat un-related. Companies it seems are basically not allowing people to learn on the job - you have to know everything before you hired. My former employer was the same way. I don't think they would consider anyone with less then 5 years of experiance and perferred more. How are people going to get any experiance if no one will let them? They did hire H1Bs with more experiance and usually a masters but they were rarely any better. Most of us questioned if they really had the experiance.
The one recent immigrant I knew who did start is own company was an almost total offshore model. At one point he was up to about 25 people in the US. Last I knew the US part was him 75% of the time, his brother 50% and one legal council. Everything was done in India.
Note that I worked in the IT department of the bank.
The Former Banker at September 16, 2009 7:07 PM
Have you ever been to a club where its all models? BORING AS FUCK.
Now go to a club where the are working class regular people. Now that's real motherfucking fun.
It's not that the people who get here are ALREADY great. It's the culture here that makes them become great.
If it were about difficult to get college degrees then China would be heaven.
Ppen at September 16, 2009 11:54 PM
I wrote: "Meanwhile, the average kids ought to be training for jobs or learning trades. Instead, they get shoved into these watered down college prep courses that lead them to watered down liberal arts degrees."
Whatever replied: "Yes. We always need skilled tradespeople. And you can't outsource plumbing, carpentry, or electrical work, cause these people have to come to your house.
"However, a caveat. Even in the trades, average doesn't get you too far. I worked in my earlier days as a builder. The good carpenters, plumbers, welders and electricians were all pretty bright guys. They probably couldn't quote Proust or discuss Gravity's Rainbow, but these guys were doing tricky stuff that dumb folks couldn't pull off."
Which is exactly why there ought to be programs for training people in the trades. At the moment, pretty much anyone can hang out a shingle "Carpenter" or "Plumber". The solution - which still exists in some countries - is a formal apprenticeship which includes part-time schooling in the trade.
The comment by cornerdemon above is excellent: it shows exactly the problem with the current "everybody goes to college" mentality. And what did Amy write above? Prison guards need a BA? Whatever for? They need practical training in prisoner psychology, self-defense and security.
bradley13 at September 17, 2009 12:14 AM
Having a child who is a student in the California school system, I'll chime in with my individual experience. Higher achieving students are channeled into classes that can have very difficult standards. I even felt the homework load and assignments were excessive at times (unless doing homework from the time he got home until midnight is not excessive). My problem is with too large of a portion of the learning emphasis being not on fundamentals (and why I suspect foreign students are exceeding ours). Drilling mathematics and communication skills into kids should be the 1st,2nd, and 3rd most important job of a school. Put another way, I suspect Japanese schools don't have family discussion posters and multicultural dioramas due every two weeks. I am all for learning about all things and all different people. There is something important to be learned there...so long as they are learning it with no cost to mastering the most important skills.
TW at September 17, 2009 1:42 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/09/16/let_the_smart_p.html#comment-1668063">comment from TWI suspect Japanese schools don't have family discussion posters and multicultural dioramas due every two weeks
Ugh...how horrible. What are "family discussion posters"?
Amy Alkon at September 17, 2009 4:09 AM
Former Banker...re excessive experience requirements, see my post hunting the five-pound butterfly.
david foster at September 17, 2009 4:47 AM
"In the trades, a decent intellect and discipline will usually do it. And with a lot less stress and bullshit than most office jobs, too."
Y'all are going to laugh, but my dream job is to be a farmer. However, I refuse to work for the government. So I put up with the bullshit office job thing. I reconcile myself to it because, having no kids, no debts, and low expenses, I don't have to do it all the time.
Pirate Jo at September 17, 2009 7:11 AM
Whatever's comment exposes one of the problems I see and is somewhat un-related. Companies it seems are basically not allowing people to learn on the job - you have to know everything before you hired.
We wanted someone who could learn on the job – a junior position. But we are a very small company that doesn't have a lot of management bandwidth for mentoring and whatnot. What we needed was someone with good enough basic skills and a high degree of internal direction and motivation, someone we could trust to bust his or her ass to learn what was needed without a lot of hand-holding, and to work in production on a very popular website without fucking things up. We couldn't find that combination in the junior people interviewed.
Whatever at September 17, 2009 7:27 AM
At the moment, pretty much anyone can hang out a shingle "Carpenter" or "Plumber". The solution - which still exists in some countries - is a formal apprenticeship which includes part-time schooling in the trade. The solution - which still exists in some countries - is a formal apprenticeship which includes part-time schooling in the trade.
I'm not sure this is the case. Most states require a plumbers and electricians to be licensed. Not sure about carpenters. And there is some sort of path/apprenticeship process in some places. I'm pretty sure I've seen job postings for "journeymen" electricians, which sounds to me like a subordinate position.
Whatever at September 17, 2009 7:31 AM
I was going to say the same thing. There are lots of license requirements in the skilled trades, to reduce competition and raise costs. Oh, they'll tell you that it's to ensure quality or safety or whatever, but since it doesn't, that explanation doesn't pan out. A few months back Amy posted a pointer to the reason.com video describing the push to require licensing of interior designers, ostensibly for safety reasons. Yeah right.
It's not just the trades, either: most places require a Professional Engineer to put their stamp of approval on certain types of plans. I don't object to the existence of P.E.'s, or to making someone legally liable for the safety of a bridge or building, but I don't care if that person is a P.E. as long as they do their job correctly.
The solution is to reduce or eliminate extra hoops that people have to jump through in order to practice their trade. People will still become certified for marketing reasons, and the value of a certification will increase because they help non-experts like me judge someone's competence. Increased competition from the non-certified will lower both end-user prices and certification prices; the winners will be customers, entry-level practitioners and the economy as a whole and the losers will be certification mills and entrenched interests.
In general if we want to avoid shoddy workmanship, we should not make a law that prevents it indirectly (requiring certification), but directly (require non-shoddy workmanship).
Pseudonym at September 17, 2009 8:24 AM
"There are lots of license requirements in the skilled trades, to reduce competition and raise costs."
Precisely; that's the primary reason for these things, not to 'protect' people from 'bad' plumbers etc.
Lobster at September 17, 2009 4:20 PM
I have a buddy with an electrical engineering degree from MIT, and he legally couldn't rewire things in his own house. His wife also has a degree, not sure in what, but she's a rocket scientist.
Didn't stop them of course.
NicoleK at September 17, 2009 5:17 PM
Around here those requirements are pretty low and cheep. The carpenter one was $20 5 years ago when brother got one and the test was extremely easy according to him. Good for life. The others are more expensive but not all that much. If anything the issue is getting a bond so if you screwing something seriously up there is definately money available to have it fixed. The unions can also be a big issue. Your aren't getting much work around here as electrian unless you are part of the union.
NicoleK electrical engineering is designing and they are not always trained at all in the actual creation. That is to say, the degree does not infer that the person has any knowledge or skill such as being able to look at a connection and know if it is safe or likely to deterate and start sparking - probaby a bad example. Thus, legally it makes sense. Most EEs will have at least some knowledge, but one could get the degree without any of the knowlege.
In this state, anyone could rewire their own house (so long as it is not attached to any other building) though they would need to get a permit and have a government inspection (just like anyone).
The Former Banker at September 18, 2009 4:41 PM
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