Serf Culture
These days, it's made up of parents -- servants to their devilspawns' every whim. Leah Ariniello writes in the NYT about "Family Meals With a Side of Stress" -- and you'll never guess what's causing all the uproar:
My husband coordinated his client calls to fall before 5 and after 8, and my kids pushed back their normal mealtime so we can all have a real family dinner. Just delightful.Or maybe not.
"I farted," says my 4-year-old daughter. There's really no need for the announcement since she's seated on a plastic booster seat that doubles as an amplifier. My 7-year-old son finds this new development absolutely hilarious. He laughs so hard that he falls off his chair taking a tomato-sauce-drenched ravioli with him. Splat and splat.
I admit that I laugh, too, for a minute, but it quickly spirals out of control. After my son carries on way too long, I tell him to get back in his seat and behave. Suddenly he claims the fall hurt him and it's his sister's fault. Is not, is too, is not, is too, is not, is too. Then the tears come.
I take a deep breath, but already my muscles have knotted. Stomach ache.
I've tried this whole shared meal business before and once again I feel defeated. And once again, I decide to go back to essentially having two dinners, one for my kids and then one with my husband when he gets home later in the evening. "What's so great about family dinners?" I mumble to my husband.
The fact is that I am well aware of what's so great about family dinners. I've heard about the research that suggests that frequent family meals are associated with children gaining better grades. Their risk of smoking, drinking, feeling depressed and having an eating disorder seems to lower.
But, never mind all that -- it's back to eating in shifts for her.
Why is it so few people these days seem up to the task of parenting?
The "parenting" so many people engage in is bringing up a generation of adult brats. I've previously had some of these brats work for me as assistants (though I've learned to hire better). I work out of my home, and not only pay my assistant but buy my assistant lunch. Yes, that's right -- free lunch, paid for by me. The kids raised by Ariniello and others' school of "go-right-ahead" mommying are the ones who thank me for that free lunch by leaving their dishes in the sink for me to wash.
Frankly, it's actually not such a big deal for me, washing a dish. In fact, I'll tell my current assistant to just leave the bowl from her oatmeal in the sink on my deadline days, and if she's in the middle of going through some text, and I'm making coffee, I'll wash it while I'm waiting to pour more hot water into the coffee thingie. What matters is that she isn't the type to leave a mess for other people to clean up...which seems more and more rare.
So her kids break down in tears over a 'nuh uh, uh huh' exchange, or does she?
And one spilled plate has her sooooo stressed out that er stomach cramps up? WTF is wrong with this woman?
How the fuck are her children supposed to learn manneres if she doesnt take the time to teach them in the first place?
And did she really just imply that her time with her children is so awfult that she is subjecting them to a lifetime of failure drug use and psycholigicl disorders because she is so fucking incompitant a parent that she would rather turn her children to to neurotic train wrecks then spend 15 fucking minutes with them at a dinner table?
Why the fuck did she even have kids?
lujlp at September 21, 2009 1:52 AM
lujlp- Ditto! I can't add anything to that. Excellent post!
David M. at September 21, 2009 3:52 AM
The start of this story sounds like an absolutely typical dinner scene with small kids. Life it like that with small kids, enjoy it while it lasts.
The scen only threatens to rachet out of control with the fake injury and the subsequent tears. Any parent can see what probably happened next: two screaming kids throwing tantrums.
This is where her response is critical.
Neither of these kids is old enough to respond to "explanations" - tantrums require immediate, firm discipline. Negative feedback. Pick your style, and adapt it to the maturity of the kid. It can be physical (a swat, a rap on the knuckles), it can be time-out and no dinner, or it can be something else. Do it once, twice if necessary, and the problems will be over.
On the other hand, if she gives in to the tantrums, she is opening the door to emotional blackmail. "We misbehave, we can make Mommy do what we want." This leads to tantrums in front of the candy at the checkout, tantrums about bed-time, etc, etc. Down that road, one does not want to go...
bradley13 at September 21, 2009 4:07 AM
Rather amusing in a pathetic sort of way. Is she so helpless in the face of disaster and faux pas committed by her children? She isn't even trying to defuse this. She can only look on, drowning in self-pity, "Oh, woe is me. Why can't my children behave?"
Because she isn't showing them how? And she isn't impressing upon them that there are consequences to misbehaving?
I've collected a few stories of good and bad parenting in my work experiences. Since I've been a waiter and a grocery store cashier, I've seen it all. Six year olds who are bawling when they enter a restaurant and won't stop for anything. Every request they make is punctuated with affected sobbing.
After mother and Cryin' Ryan finally left, the waitress said to me, "Boy, it's not hard to see who's in charge of that family."
"And so tyrannical about it, too!"
I might have shared this one before, but when I was a cashier, an attractive new mother, early to mid twenties came through the checkout with a tiny two-to-three year old named Katie. As she checked through, Katie was looking longingly at the candy rack.
"No, Katie," mommy said. "It's too close to lunch time."
I continued to scan and I saw Katie skulking past her mother, clutching her coat tightly closed.
"Please don't tell me I have to call the department manager on a shop-lifting three year old," I thought.
As it turns out, no. Mother saw her daughter and suspected what she was doing, and wasn't afraid to address it, then and there.
"Katie, what do you have inside your coat?"
"Nuffin'."
"Katie, please take that candy out of your coat and put it back where you found it."
With the solemnity and languid pace of a death row inmate approaching the guillotine, Katie did as she was told, and then turned to face Mommy, who had lost none of her pleasantness or composure.
"Katie, I'm very upset with you right now. I told you no candy, and took some anyway. And then when I asked you about it, you lied to me. So, we are not going to Grandma's today like we said we were. Now go sit on the bench and wait for me there."
Katie was reduced to tears, but did as she was told. Mommy completed her transaction with me, still pleasant and smiling, then she took her groceries, called for Katie, still addressing her lovingly, and Katie (still bawling), left the store with Mommy.
Bravo!
It's not that hard to reason with child, even a tot like Katie. But this helpless fool that Amy writes about, who should not be a mother, can only look on in despair when her brats get out of control.
When we acted up in a restaurant, my mother took us outside at once, and it was made abundantly clear that when we went back in, we would behave. But these parents today allow their screeching brats to disrupt everyone else's meal.
Patrick at September 21, 2009 4:14 AM
bradley writes:
Both of these kids are old enough to understand spoken language, then they are both old enough to respond to explanations. You lay out the crime and the consequences, like Katie's mother did in the account I just gave.
And a "swat" or a "rap on the knuckles" is medieval.
Patrick at September 21, 2009 4:22 AM
When I was married I got into a very bad habit of kid friendly dinners because my ex worked nights and was never home. It was easier. Then I realized my mistake when I tried going out to dinner and had three young kids refusing to sit at the table in a restaurant. I corrected it very quickly. It didn't require hitting. I would tell them what was required and insist that they behave. It took a lot reinforcement until I corrected the bad behavior I created, but I stayed on top of it.
Negative attention is still attention and sometimes kids don't care what kind of attention it is. The most effective thing is to never let them see you rattled. That is when they don't listen. When they see a calm mom in control, they respond. Seriously, its like fighting a war and I won it. My kids are teen and pre-teen and I get compliments from wherever they go on their manners and behavior. They aren't perfect kids, but I won the public behavior battle and they didn't even know it was a battle.
Kristen at September 21, 2009 4:48 AM
I see lots of traps that parents fall into in trying to maintain some order with their kids. I see parents trying to be their kids' friend which is a recipe for disaster. Kids have enough friends and don't their parents in that role until the kids are adults. Kids really need parents who are effective at setting limits and being the 'bad guy' when it's necessary. I also love watching parents negotiate with little children to get good behavior. This puts the child on an equal playing field with the parent. I think it's great to give children some choices, but behaving appropriately is not a choice, it's a requirement with consequences when it's not met. Children are not entitled to explanations. Sometimes the answer is just "no." 'Because mommy is tired' will you get you into trouble. Sometimes the rules seem arbitrary and kids need to learn that. You can teach them to question authority later on if that's important to you.
And when the kid grows up (assuming that they do), stop parenting them. They may not have grown up the way you would have wanted but as adult, they are entitled to make their own decisions. Pop told me after I grew up that free advice is worth what you pay for it before he gave his opinion on anything I was doing. It was priceless.
Anonymiss at September 21, 2009 5:15 AM
Amen, Kristen, When they see a calm mom in control, they respond. Very true. I remember one time, when my oldest was 4, and we were in line at the bank (in the grocery store). It was a few days after Halloween. She was looking at all the candy displays (you know, the 3/4 off sales?) and said "Mom, can I have some candy?" I knew she meant right them, so I said, "sure, when we get home, you can have some of your Halloween candy, after dinner." And she said "okay, thanks." And the woman behind me said in a shocked tone, "Oh wow! A child you can reason with! You must be so proud!" And I smiled and said thanks, but it made me wonder how she dealt with her children, if, in fact, she had any. I have always let my girls know what I expect from them behavior-wise, tried to set a good example, and when they misbehaved, they were punished appropriately. Both are in high school now, and they are really good kids. I get lot of compliments on their behavior, but it wasn't always easy. I would tell them I didn't like punishing them, and I truly didn't, but if they misbehaved, they lost certain privileges. No computer time, no phone, no tv. Being grounded (to their rooms, let out only for dinner, bathroom breaks, a shower before bed, usually for a minimum of 1 day, but never longer than 4, in most cases) for a particularly grieveous offense, was something they hated, so that punishment was infrequent, but still in the reportoire. I'm amazed, really, but very grateful, at the lack of punishments I've had to dole out lately. It's quite gratifying to know that there are strategies that work, if you're consistent with them.
Flynne at September 21, 2009 5:19 AM
Yes, Flynne, its funny how little punishments I give out now because there has been an expectation of how they should behave that's always been reinforced. I am amazed at the amount of parents that still scream, yell and throw tantrums trying to get their way with their teenagers. Teenagers love it when parents become unhinged because it means they won the control back from their parents. Of course I have my moments. My middle guy is the typical middle child and the one that will make me old, but for the most part he's still pretty easy, and I would never embarass myself by throwing a fit in public. My kids laugh because they say that I do the raised eyebrow and they know to cut the shit. Their imitation is funny but at least I know that they take me seriously.
Kristen at September 21, 2009 5:27 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/09/21/dinner_with_kid.html#comment-1668738">comment from KristenI told my neighbor about this blog post, and she was stunned. She said something like "How do they learn how to behave if you don't have family dinners and teach them?" Her kids are so sweet, and so polite. They're kids -- they do stuff they're not supposed to, but she and her husband correct them...over dinner, when they're all sitting down together. They aren't allowed to get up from the table until dinner is over, and if they're naughty, they get little punishments. The mother, who is a kind and gentle person, is firm with them but doesn't shout at them -- she doesn't have to. If they cross the line, they know they'll get sent to their room or have privileges taken away. It's no fun for her to be the disciplinarian but she loves her kids enough to be a good parent to them.
Amy Alkon at September 21, 2009 6:24 AM
If it's medieval, you're doing it wrong.
Pseudonym at September 21, 2009 7:09 AM
It's interesting that Dr. John Rosemond (at www.rosemond.com), who is considered too strict by many (though not me) has said, IIRC, that having *preschoolers* eat with parents is overrated, in part because parents need as much "adult time" as possible. (He certainly doesn't believe in letting kids decide when to learn manners - he's said often that respecting kids means expecting a lot from them, without dawdling.)
Regarding the free lunch: While it's probably true that most people should be expected to offer to wash the dishes, I think it's pretty easy for a worker to make the mistake of not doing so, if only because it WAS in your house and many other bosses would not even offer the lunch, so it's easy to confuse that situation with being at a FRIEND'S house for lunch. (Again, IIRC, MIss Manners has said that while it's nice to offer to help with the dishes when it's a social invitation, it's not mandatory.)
Next time, of course, you don't have to offer the lunch to the slob who doesn't even put the dish in the dishwasher.
lenona at September 21, 2009 7:11 AM
My parents had 4 kids and my mom went back to school full time to get her masters and then Ph.D. when her oldest was 9 and her youngest 2. We had dinner almost every night together in the dining room and we weren't allowed to leave until everyone was finished eating. We all behaved because when we didn't we were corrected and taught to behave. Imagine that you have to teach your children stuff?
And you know what? I have found memories of those dinners as to my siblings. We learned not only how to behave at the dinner table but how to be a fun dinner guest.
Fink-Nottle at September 21, 2009 7:15 AM
Regarding lunch, the perfect example of that sort of thing is the typical office break room -- bad parenting and tragedy-of-the-commons all rolled into one.
Cousin Dave at September 21, 2009 7:20 AM
"...a "swat" or a "rap on the knuckles" is medieval.
There is a time and a place for physical punishment. I am not talking about spanking - that is not immediate, and hence is more an expression of parental frustration.
Small child reaches for the candy rack. "No, we are not getting any candy." Child reaches again. "No, I said no candy." Child grabs candy bar. *Rap*
Why is it that people consider causing short-term, minor pain to be medieval? It has its place, most especially with small children.
bradley13 at September 21, 2009 7:25 AM
I have a good friend who had a temper tantrum throwing nephew. The 4 year old's parents could not cure him and were intimidated by the frequency and violence of the fits. My friend, J, took him to the local mall one day to shop for a gift. When he did not instantly get something he wanted he fell to the floor, started to scream and beat his feet and head on the floor. After a few seconds of this he looked to see if it was having the desired effect. His aunt J was nowhere in sight! The tantrum ended then and there and he urgently began to look for his missing aunt. No more tantrums were thrown while with his aunt.
Fred at September 21, 2009 7:28 AM
Pseudonym writes:
There is no right way to administer a "swat" or "rap on the knuckles," and to suggest that such measures are appropriate punishment or parenting measures is barbaric.
Hitting is not acceptable. Period. It is not suddenly okay when one is a child and another is the adult. What do you do if you're in the park and your child hits another child? Tell him not to hit and then underscore the point with a swat on the bottom? There's a great mixed message. I find it ironic that the rap on the knuckles suggestion came in the same post that insisted that children can't understand explanations.
Gee, how could any child fail to comprehend the clear signal that comes with a rap on the knuckles? What does this teach them beyond might makes right and that hitting people is how you get them to do what you want? This is not an acceptable message to teach children. Or perhaps that it's wrong to hit other adults but they're fair game? Perhaps that they should fear adults' ability to hit and become compliant to adults least they be swatted? I'm sure a lot of sexual predators would appreciate that effort.
And why is it okay to hit a child and call it parenting when the same conduct done to another adult will likely get you knocked on your ass then hauled off in state-owned limousine with a brand new set of conjoined bracelets made of highly fashionable gun metal?
Hitting is for morons that don't know how to communicate their message effectively. You're supposed to be preparing your child to function as an adult. Just how do you expect to do that when you're modeling what is unacceptable and (quite appropriately) illegal?
Patrick at September 21, 2009 7:34 AM
We're not going to resolve the spanking/no spanking debate here, but I'd like to point out that people have been administering physical punishment for thousands of (known) years, and the human race has managed to avoid turning into feral wolves despite that. I reject the notion that children's psyches are delicate flowers that are going to fall apart should mommy swat the kid on the ass every once in awhile.
And why is it okay to hit a child and call it parenting when the same conduct done to another adult will likely get you knocked on your ass then hauled off in state-owned limousine with a brand new set of conjoined bracelets made of highly fashionable gun metal?
Parents do lots of things that would be illegal to do to another adult. Confining your kid to his room is called grounding. Do it to an adult and it's imprisonment.
MonicaP at September 21, 2009 8:43 AM
Ah, Patrick, I doubt we will agree. However, your post mixes very different things. I cannot force my neighbor to mow my lawn or carry out my garbage, but I think most people would agree that I can expect this type of work from my children.
Even amongst adults, hitting is not always wrong. Such things are situational. With one's children, different situations apply that with adults.
In the example I gave above, hitting the child is not only an acceptable action, I consider it far and away the most appropriate action.
What is so bloody sacred about pain, that it must be avoided at all costs?
Pain is nature's way of teaching small children what is acceptable and what is not. Bruises, scrapes and skinned knees are part of a small child's life. Why should parents not make use of the same capability? Neither a skinned knee nor a rapped knuckle does any lasting harm to a child; both may teach a valuable lesson.
You will disagree. That's fine, to each his own. I hope, however, that you are not one of the extremist who want to criminalize the type of discipline I choose to use.
bradley13 at September 21, 2009 8:47 AM
"It didn't require hitting. I would tell them what was required and insist that they behave. It took a lot reinforcement until I corrected the bad behavior I created, but I stayed on top of it."
Big huge applause from over here!!!! :)
Feebie at September 21, 2009 9:11 AM
My two daughters share one bedroom, and of course, we still have their older brother Robert's bedroom just the way it was when he left us, that unfortunate dinner of 2002. I tell them about it from time to time, but they can still see what they hope is the spaghetti sauce on Robert's walls.
Anyway, dinner has always been a pleasure.
jerry at September 21, 2009 9:11 AM
Cousin Dave, regarding the lunch-room. HA. I'm the youngest person in my office, a member of the generation of brats y'all are complaining about. (And I do know a fair number of brats, to be fair.) I've had to start keeping my lunch dishes at my desk because my much older co-workers rarely wash their dishes and when they do, there are still chunks of food left all over. It's not an age thing.
Sam at September 21, 2009 9:42 AM
Monica P writes:
Especially since you seem bound and determined to make sure we don't, with your tactic of erecting strawmen.
Who, exactly, claimed that "children's psyches are delicate flowers that are going to fall apart should mommy swat the kid on the ass every once in awhile"?
That would be exactly no one, but why let a little thing like representing a person's position fairly enter this discussion, especially when fighting for the right to expedite the whole discipline process with a good ol' fashioned beating, as opposed to turning misbehavior into a teachable moment by reasoning with a recalcitrant child?
By the way, since you brought this up (despite your implication that someone else did), how often is "once a while"? How much spanking is appropriate before it becomes counterproductive? You seem to suggest that there is a threshold for this. So, where exactly is it?
I've seen the way children are conducting themselves these days, and the problem is getting worse. I've heard numerous times that it's the "goddamned liberals who are against spanking" to blame for this, but since these children seem more and more likely to solve their conflicts with their fists, it doesn't seem likely that they learned this from parents who don't advocate spanking.
It isn't a question of making their tender psyches fall apart (although your "once in a while" statement is ambiguous and therefore useless -- I'm sure some parents might consider a paddling several times a day to be "once in a while"). It's a matter of teaching them healthy conflict resolution.
And grounding at least has an appropriate counterpart in the adult world. Bad behavior as a child results in confinement to one's home, or one's room. Bad behavior as an adult results in confinement to jail. But I know of no parallel to childhood beatings in the adult world.
And bradley, regarding criminalizing, I'd prefer that you learn methods that allow children to learn something other than a pain response, but hey, they're your kids. If you've crossed a line, I'm quite they'll remember it as adults and make you pay for it. Perhaps by snubbing you for the rest of your life. Not suggesting you're a bad parent, but perhaps there are books or instruction available to teach a good parent to become a better parent?
I doubt one spanking will cause your children to hate you forever, but I think you'll have to admit that there are better things to teach them than to avoid daddy's wrath.
I remember once I was sitting at a busstop and one rather large woman was there with her child about six or seven. He was acting up, and his mother stood up, furious. I was convinced I was going to watch a beating, but thankfully, that didn't happen. The child was apparently conscious of his mother's size and limitations, and simply avoided her by staying on the other side of the bench. Soon she gave up and the child resumed his acting up. So, because the woman is an obese slob, the child is able to get away with being an obnoxious pain-in-the-ass. Had she had the slightest inkling of parental authority, she might have been able to teach her child something and effectively disciplined him.
His antics were quite amusing, too. He was giving a play-by-play of where his fantasy was taking him. "I kick over the trash can," which he tried to do, but the trash bin was staked to the ground, "and I'm running from the cops," as he ran in place simulating fleeing the pursuing police officers.
Oh, he's going to grow up to be a great adult. His mother his so masterfully taught him to avoid the authorities.
Patrick at September 21, 2009 9:48 AM
This kind of soft-headed thinking is why there are so may adult douchebags walking about. They didn't get the shit kicked out of them in school, they didn't get spanked by their parents, they didn't get told to stand in the corner and stare at the wall by their teachers.
People respond to pain differently than they respond to words. When someone steals your milk, you don't ask for it back, you smack them in the head and TAKE it back. They won't steal milk any more. If you ask for it, they'll just drink it and laugh in your face while you pout impotently.
Patrick - do the world a favor and don't try to raise any children.
brian at September 21, 2009 9:50 AM
Brian.
How did your parents discipline you?
Feebie at September 21, 2009 10:03 AM
Not a proponent of spanking / beating, but I think in many situations a quick swat on the ass - less to inflict pain than get attention / send a message / maybe include some public shame - is invaluable.
Mr. Teflon at September 21, 2009 10:18 AM
brian writes:
Yeah, all that stuff you had in school and look how well you turned out.
On the contrary, this kind of idiotic thinking is why kids these days are beating on each other and growing into adults who solve problems with violence.
And I never said there was anything wrong with making a child stand in the corner.
Brian, I was trying to cut you some slack, but the more I read of your garbage, the more I'm convinced that you're an ill-informed, opinionated, hypersensitive jackass.
Quite the contrary, it's you that should be kept away from children.
Patrick at September 21, 2009 10:20 AM
Patrick, this is the closest I've come to ever agreeing with you (so don't let this happen again).
But a quick swat (not hit, not beating, not abusive) when the child is not old enough to communicate/reason etc. would be invaluable to their safety. It's not meant to humiliate, it's not meant to shame or hurt. It's just a safety thing.
E.g reaching for a boiling pot of hot water, sticking fingers in light switches, etc. That's not anger or rage. That is just appropriate for the situation. And if you leave a mark - it's too hard.
But once they are old enough to communicate, I am in agreement with your post. No need to hit.
Feebie at September 21, 2009 10:32 AM
sheez, the question of discipline always gets people going... but the bottom line is that having progressive discipline is generally the way people have always done it, the key is the will to make it work. When my own were small my ex- and I used a book/video for parents called 1-2-3 magic which extols the counting system... the most important thing the author said was that if you didn't get them in line when they were little, they will be totally out of control as teens. I think this in itself is the truest thing you will hear.
HOW you discipline is quite the question. Hence the disagreement above. But you may find that progressive is best. I haven't spanked my kids more than twice ever, because once established, mostly what you need is the threat. The KIDS know that by the time I get to a count of 3 it isn't going to be pleasent, so they usually stop the bad behavior before I get there.
But, if I DO get there, they know I'm going to make them do something completely unrelated, gross, and for no other reason then punishment. Scrubbing garbage cans is usually good for that.
This is where the LW and others generally fall off. You need to have the WILL to have the punishment stick. You are going to spend some of YOUR time making it happen. That is also part of the deal. Because the kids are not only wasting their own time, they are also wasting yours. That gives you a bigger reason to make it stick, and a bigger reason that they shouldn't do it.
Contiually yelling at them, or allowing them to do something one day, and then not the next, isn't all the helpful in the long run. Doing it the same way and steady, helps a kid to see the path. When I was a teen I lived with my grandmother while away at school. I can tell you she never raised her voice to tell me to sit up straight and get my elbows off the table. Most times she had only to give me that look. He will struggle to hear a whisper who ignores a shout.
For the LW, if she doesn't get it together now, the kids will not be too fun when they are older. And? Where is their father in all of this? Tag teams work best. Hers is not the only responsibility in giving them manners...
SwissArmyD at September 21, 2009 10:41 AM
"On the contrary, this kind of idiotic thinking is why kids these days are beating on each other and growing into adults who solve problems with violence."
I disagree. Our society is decidedly less violent now than throughout most of human history. The reason that many people react with violence is because they don't have any anger management skills or they are under the influence of something that reduces their inhibitions such as alcohol. Usually when their parents got angry and out of the control they lashed out in anger at the kids also. It is unwise to physically punish a child in anger because it does teach them poor anger management (although a lot of that may be genetic too) however a few swats or a physically tight hold on their arm that is designed to get their attention will do no lasting damage and will modify the behavior of most children. Some children are physically very tough and punishment would have to go beyond what is safe to control their behavior. I had one child that spanking did not work at all on. But on the other one it did. I think parents need to have the latitude to use the tools that work on a particular child. The no spanking nannies are a lot like the people that see sexual abuse around every corner and are going ballistic over a guy taking pictures of his kids in the park. Real child abuse is not a few swats on the butt or grabbing your child tightly by the arm. It is keeping your kids locked in their room on bread and water or babies in the emergency room with broken skulls and limbs. My very bright 23 year old son who I never could get to do well in school despite his obvious very high intelligence should have probably been put in military school at the age of 12. I asked him once as an adult what would have motivated him to do better academically. He said "corporal punishment". Only thing he really feared and the only thing that worked when he was 5.
Isabel1130 at September 21, 2009 10:52 AM
The temperament of the child matters. Different children respond differently to different types of discipline, especially if they were not disciplined at a young age, or disciplined inconsistently. Ideally proper discipline applied at a young age would turn every child into a model of good behavior but life doesn't work that way.
We're a non-spanking family, but not everyone has that luxury. I grew up in a spanking family and we all turned out pretty well, so it is not the case that spanking necessarily results in barbarism or monsters. On the flip side, time-outs and verbal punishment can be abused as much as or worse then physical punishment.
Pseudonym at September 21, 2009 11:05 AM
Pseudonym. Agreed.
Feebie at September 21, 2009 11:18 AM
The temperament of the child matters.
Absolutely. It's nonsense to think that a discipline "philosophy" can be applied to every child, like children are computer programs that respond identically to the same input. If a quick swat on the ass resolves a problem promptly, I don't see how it's kinder to have to repeat the lesson over and over and over again using different psychologist-approved tactics. But if a child responds better to counting and time outs and such, why bother with spanking?
MonicaP at September 21, 2009 11:31 AM
Patrick:
Yeah, a successful businessman with a house, car, motorcycle, and dog. A total and absolute failure.
Bullshit on stilts. Those kids invariably come from families with a complete and utter lack of discipline of any kind.
No you didn't. It's called a non-sequitur.
I'll cop to the "ass" part, but that's about it. You're the hypersensitive one, precious.
Tell it to the kids I spent the weekend around. The seem to think I'm pretty cool.
brian at September 21, 2009 11:56 AM
People, don't respond to Patrick. He's a troll.
Crusader at September 21, 2009 11:58 AM
Feebie:
Appropriately. Mom was the corporal punishment one. The swat across the pants was about as far as that got. It stopped when she spanked me and I laughed at her.
That's when she got really tough. I came home from school, and all that was in my bedroom was the bed and the dresser.
Message Received.
To this day I can neither confirm nor deny the existence of "The Strap". If it existed, none of us ever saw it.
You want to know what kind of kids you get when all forms of physical punishment are off the table? Obama. People who believe you can negotiate with anyone at any time and that there is never a need to escalate.
brian at September 21, 2009 11:59 AM
To this day I can neither confirm nor deny the existence of "The Strap". If it existed, none of us ever saw it.
My mom used a wooden spoon. Broke it going after my younger brother's butt one afternoon, he was too quick for her! After that, she used on of those wooden paddle ball things, with the ball removed. All it took was once for me; I think my brothers may have gotten it once or twice more.
The principal at our elementary school had a b-i-g wooden paddle hung up by a strap on the wall in his office that had "Board of Education" stenciled on it. I never felt it, but I knew a coupla kids who did. Their parents added to it once they got home. But this was back in the Stone Age (mid to late 60s). o.O
Flynne at September 21, 2009 12:44 PM
My mom caught me playing with matches and lighting a field on fire when I was about 6. She picked up a 2 by 4 with rusty nails on it and beat my ass. She then took me to the doc for a tetanus shot. Guess what, never did that again. MY most feared punishment was when she would say wait until your father gets home, because I would have to think of him taking off his belt and smacking me with it for a long time. Again, excellent deterrent. All this pansy ass talk about it being medievel is exactly why our society is so f'ed up ... too many people theink they are child psychologists and instead of punishing kids, try to reason with them.
Ron at September 21, 2009 1:25 PM
When I first read this story, I experienced the usual response, which was my tubes tying themselves. Holy Jesus jumped-up fiddlin' christ, even when I have a crappy day at work, at least I come home to a happy place.
And then the regulars here turned it into a thought-provoking conversation.
My parents used spanking as a last resort, so I got spanked quite infrequently, although it happened a small handful of times. I can think of one time when it wasn't deserved - the rest, I was being a little shit.
My brother went through a really annoying hormonal period, from the ages of about 10-13, when he was a total little asshole. I don't know what his problem was, but he was just an angry little jerk, and our dad had to come down pretty hard on him a few times. Usually this involved a very stern dressing-down, followed by a period of conscripted labor, which left the little turd too tired to give anyone much of a hard time. (Mom and I were very thankful.)
By the time he was 15, my brother was the most laid-back, mellow, likeable guy you could imagine. Nothing really riled him up much, and he turned out to have a wicked sense of humor. He is now in his late 30's and is still that way.
I think kids, both male and female, might experience similar positive results from a demanding physical activity, like biking or long-distance running. It flushes all the annoying hormone fluctuations out of the system, teaches them not to be lardasses, and instills the love of a physical activity at the same time, which may serve them well all through their adulthood. (Go, Team in Training!!!) I think there's something to this exercise thing. Also diet is important. You can't really fuel your kids up on a bunch of junk food and expect them to be anything other than hyperactive brats. Imagine the hormonal difficulties of adolescence, combined with wildly fluctuating blood-sugar levels. Think about this for five entire minutes, and I'll bet you can come up with a pretty quick idea for making parenting easier.
Pirate Jo at September 21, 2009 1:49 PM
Seventy five years ago, we would not be having this discussion. Every parent would have called the woman crazy for trying to have a civilized meal with a four year old.
The family dinner is a modern invention. Previous generations ate in shifts, such as the woman talked about. There was a certain awe held by the children in being allowed to eat with the adults. It was a certain coming-of-age tradition to have a place setting with the adults. Misbehavior meant being sent back to dinner with the other children.
Unfortunately this meant that my mother never ate a dinner with her father, as he died when she was young. Personally, I started cooking the family meal at eight or nine as my mother worked evenings and my father had a record of starting fires. You don't throw or spill a meal you spent an hour or two cooking.
If this woman does things correctly, the children will be dying to prove that they are behaved well enough to eat with their parents in a few years.
To be honest, I wish that more of you would leave your children at home with babysitters when going out to restaurants. At least, this woman knows her kids are badly behaved unlike most parents I see. The worst of the children have the rudest parents as examples,
Cat at September 21, 2009 1:54 PM
"all that was in my bedroom was the bed and the dresser."
Brian- thanks for sharing- I like how the lady thinks! I need this now that my ten (almost eleven) year old is as tall/taller? than I am, and the wooden spoon has less effect and seems rather silly for her.
I'm also an advocate for the squirt bottle. Sure as sh#$ gets their attention! Works wonders in the car when they're fighting, keeps them in line at the table, and even keeps the dog from begging at the same table. Haven't tried it yet on my husband.....
We typically don't eat out much, and if it's with the kids, it's only family friendly places. Culver's anyone? Why the hell spend alot of money when you know you'll just be buying expensive mac 'n' cheese or chicken fingers? But they don't get a pass, they still have to behave. The great thing about these places is you can point out someone else's kid going bonkers so your child sees how stupid someone else looks acting like that.
Juliana at September 21, 2009 2:13 PM
While I don't deny that there are good parents that have used corpral punishment and good parents that have not -- I have to wonder what happens in the case where kids aren't given the tools or guidence growing up by the "punishers" and the only thing anything is met with with is brute force. I mean, what are they learning from this other than confusion, pain and terror?
A kid can get pretty screwed up if they are getting paddles, shoes, boots, 4x4's, bats, straps, paddles (and more), for spilling milk, giving the wrong look, making too much noise, not sitting up straight, asking a question, not knowing the answer to a question, (just breathing?) or anything that maybe they weren't even guidend to learn about by their parent(s).
At a certain point, when is the parent thinking to themselves, ya know...this ain't working. Maybe *I* need to try something different? Maybe that's the difference?
I don't have the answers to these. This is one thing that puzzles my nut daily. I just know that some parents probably shouldn't have kids.
Feebie at September 21, 2009 2:15 PM
My mom used a wooden spoon.
Ha. That made me think of my mother, who would chase me around the house with the rolling pin for having what she termed a "fresh mouth."
I became awesome at hiding. No one ever thinks to look in the bathtub. I didn't grow up thinking it was OK to hit people with rolling pins. I grew up thinking maybe I should watch what I say.
MonicaP at September 21, 2009 2:16 PM
Also, we always got compliments from wait staff at restaurants for being such well mannered kids- and free ice cream too. By others accounts, my parents were always given perfect marks for their parenting.
It's a funny world, I guess.
Feebie at September 21, 2009 2:19 PM
The most feared sentence in the English language: "Cut that switch. No, that one, the long one." I knew my ass was in for some pain. Glad they raised me right.
Richard Cook at September 21, 2009 2:47 PM
There is always something off-key whenever Amy Alkon opines about child raising.
i-holier-than-thou at September 21, 2009 3:14 PM
Brian writes:
Interesting how you have conceded that the most effective punishment you've ever gotten didn't involve beating on you. Thank you for winning my argument for me.
Patrick at September 21, 2009 4:22 PM
Isabel1130 writes:
You think? It seems to have gotten worse to me. Not talking about world history, but I'm talking about the last 30-50 years. I haven't seen or heard of the type of violence that seems to erupt in schools and on the buses nowadays.
Bradley, glad to find someone on this board who can disagree without being disagreeable.
Brian, I'm not talking about your personal success. I'm talking about your inability to handle dissent. I've only seen you on this blog recently, as one who's been posting here intermittently for five years. But each and every disagreement to you is a personal insult and you respond in kind, which is why I'm convinced that you're hypersensitive. Adults can handle dissent without taking it personally. You obviously can't.
Several people have disagreed with me on this subject. How many have felt the need to attack me personally? That would be you.
And as for children, I'm the youngest of 11 children, and I still remain the favorite uncle. I've been organizing games and playing with my nieces and nephews since grade school, and I haven't lost my touch yet.
Patrick at September 21, 2009 4:36 PM
Oh, I forgot, Feebie, I wouldn't consider what you describe as a beating. It's the most expedient means of removing someone from imminent danger. There really is no time to reason with a child when it's about to stick a fork into an electrical outlet, for instance.
"Oh, let's not electrocute ourselves, shall we?"
And it's also appropriate to deal with adults in such a way. If I were crossing the street heedless of a speeding car bearing down on me, and you chose to tackle me out of the way, I wouldn't stand up and scream, "FELONY BATTERY!" even if I did sustain injuries.
I'd like to think most adults would think similarly, but I've heard of people getting sued because they cracked someone's rib while executing the Heimlich maneuver. I cannot confirm or disprove this, but all I can say is, if true, it sounds mighty ungrateful. Considering the alternative was asphyxiation, I would consider cracked ribs to be the better option.
So, I'd say we're pretty much in agreement.
Patrick at September 21, 2009 4:47 PM
There is always something off-key whenever Amy Alkon opines about child raising.
Posted by: i-holier-than-thou
And there is something every time i-am-a-bigger-asshole-than-thou opines about anything that makes me wish for a nice relaxing day at the beach with a puzzle box and the cenobites
lujlp at September 21, 2009 5:06 PM
Why is it so few people these days seem up to the task of parenting?
Just cause it's in the NYT, doesn't mean it represents reality (at least outside of a narrow section of a tiny island).
I think it's just the later-in-life, well off, coastal types who are this confused and indulgent.
Outside of enclaves like Santa Monica, or Manhattan you'll have folks doing the traditional things that lead to reasonably well behaved and adjusted children.
XWL at September 21, 2009 6:40 PM
Patrick - you're the one that led with the insults. I responded in kind.
Oh, and I've conceded nothing. when I was three, a swat on the ass was effective. Taking my shit would not have meant a thing then. When I was 12, those things were reversed.
You're just unwilling to concede that you don't know everything.
brian at September 21, 2009 7:02 PM
"There is always something off-key whenever Amy Alkon opines about child raising. "
Yes. It is when you chime in.
Radwaste at September 21, 2009 7:07 PM
My parents never hit us and there were 5 of us. I have never laid a hand on my children. I've never needed to. Most of the people favoring spanking tell stories that sound like some parents lost control and did not know how to regain it other than beating a child. There are times my kids have tried more than my patience and I don't claim to have the patent on patience. I just look at these beautiful things I brought into this world and could never imagine purposely hurting them in the name of love. It doesn't make sense to me.
While I don't agree that spanking is necessary, I don't think an occasional swat is abuse. I do draw the line though with people who feel it should be the recommended punishment. I don't explain to death to my children, but I do find that when I'm calm and willing to teach right and wrong and expected behavior, somehow hitting never comes into the mix. There's no lesson in it other than that people who are bigger can hit people who are smaller which sort of conflicts with anti-bullying messages.
I don't expect to change anyone's minds here about the spanking or not spanking issue but I know many parents and it has been my experience that the kids I've watched grow up that turn out best did not come from parents who hit. Most kids go through similar phases. Most will test and most will experiment with things. The kids I've seen that go from experimenting to more serious issues usually have the father at home waiting with the belt unwilling to listen to anything the kid has to say. Those parents are the ones that forget that when raising kids there will always be power struggles and sometimes its wise to pick the battles. I don't feel like I'm losing face with my son or his respect if he goes up against me on occasion. Its part of growing up and part of his learning curve. That's not to be confused with being his door mat or even his friend. Its a balance and not always an easy one. For me, hitting or spanking would throw off that balance. I want my children's respect, not their fear.
Kristen at September 21, 2009 7:25 PM
I spoke with a nanny awhile back who told me about a couple who insisted that she have the kids asleep by the time they came home from work so they wouldn't have to deal with them. Putting the time in must be a real pain in the ass when your little status symbols start acting up.
MonicaP at September 21, 2009 7:47 PM
"My mom used a wooden spoon. Broke it going after my younger brother's butt one afternoon, he was too quick for her! After that, she used on of those wooden paddle ball things, with the ball removed."
You had my mother? :-D Are we long-lost sibs? That damned paddle.... :-D
7 and 4 are NOT too young to sit at the table and behave, not at all. People expect much too little of their children lately, or maybe they want to duck the work it takes to get results. The mother in the article goes on as if she is helpless and has no say in what goes on in her own home.
crella at September 21, 2009 8:26 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/09/21/dinner_with_kid.html#comment-1668882">comment from i-holier-than-thouThere is always something off-key whenever Amy Alkon opines about child raising.
Such as?
You don't have to squeeze kids out to know how to parent them. P.S. Common vanity of parents; usually those sitting in public with ill-behaved spawn who are trying their darndest to crack plate glass with their screams.
Amy Alkon at September 21, 2009 8:31 PM
There's something about commenters I-holier and Whatever... They just seem indecently similar. They arrived at the same time, same shtick, same posting patterns....
Crid [CridComment @ gmail] at September 21, 2009 8:40 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/09/21/dinner_with_kid.html#comment-1668885">comment from Crid [CridComment @ gmail]They're different! I checked! All I'll reveal, though.
Amy Alkon at September 21, 2009 9:09 PM
Brian writes:
Ah, no. I called Rush Limbaugh a liar, you insisted that you know Limbaugh doesn't lie (a reckless statement, since the only way to know that Limbaugh hasn't lied is to have heard every single word he's ever uttered or written and checked it against the facts). I showed some of Limbaugh's numerous lies, such as his claim that he doesn't make ad hominem attacks while pointing to several ad hominem attacks. Even you conceded that at least some of those statements were lies. And you called me an asshole for it.
So what is it that makes me an asshole? Proving you wrong or proving Limbaugh is a liar? Because I had not insulted you prior to that. Either way, you've shown your inability to handle dissent quite well.
Patrick at September 21, 2009 11:25 PM
Well, it was a good discussion while it lasted. Now it has descended to ad hominum attacks. There is something to be said for sites like Jerry Pournelle's, where he chooses which replies to post.
bradley13 at September 22, 2009 2:36 AM
I have to wonder what happens in the case where kids aren't given the tools or guidence growing up by the "punishers" and the only thing anything is met with with is brute force. I mean, what are they learning from this other than confusion, pain and terror?
Feebie,
IF all the parent is doing is hitting, then yes, it's a problem. I would get the wooden spoon (Mom made us go get it - now that was serious psychological punishment - but it worked), but afterward, she would sit down with us and make sure we understood:
1. Why she just spanked us.
2. That she did love us, and that would never change.
My dad never punished us. He was too afraid he would seriously hurt us (he is 6'6 and about 280 pounds). I have only ever hit by him once in my life, when I was 16, and I told my mom F*ck you B*tch. He slapped me and knocked me across the kitchen (about 10 feet). Funny, I've never talked to my mom that way again. :)
Corporal punishment is fine, as long as it isn't the only thing you do.
E. Steven Berkimer at September 22, 2009 8:02 AM
E. Steven Berkimer writes:
And of course everyone knows the ends justify the means.
Patrick at September 22, 2009 8:22 AM
And of course everyone knows the ends justify the means. - Patrick
Well it is a central tennet of christianity and this is a christian nation patrick
Given your religion says that Steven should have been killed by his father I dont know what you are complaining about
lujlp at September 22, 2009 8:44 AM
"I have only ever hit by him once in my life, when I was 16, and I told my mom F*ck you B*tch. He slapped me and knocked me across the kitchen (about 10 feet). Funny, I've never talked to my mom that way again. :)"
Yes, but you're assuming and asserting that no other form of punsihment would've worked. If he took away your car keys or grounded you for a month would you still call mom names?
I think if you look at nature, a lot of creatures use a swat to keep their young in line. A mother bear will swat a cub that may be getting too close to danger. It's very brief and effective (not long and drawn out the way many parents impose corporal punishment with switches, belts, and paddles). But, then, animals don't have the benefit of language like we do.
I think spanking and hitting is the lazy form of discipline, used by parents who can't come up with another alternative or don't want to be consistent enough to enforce something else (like grounding). To me, those are the people truly taking the easy way out and potentially causing more lasting damage. Another recent study proved that spanking toddlers resulted in many more behavior problems and aggressive children.
In my book, that is a bigger concern than waiting for preschoolers to be old enough to join the dinner table.
lovelysoul at September 22, 2009 9:29 AM
Here's the study:
http://news.aol.com/health/article/spanking-makes-toddlers-aggressive-study/672943
lovelysoul at September 22, 2009 9:38 AM
lujlp:
There is no state-sanctioned religion in this country, and there is no tenent of Christianity that says the ends justify the means.
And the laws regarding the stoning of obnoxious children referred to a specific time and place. Moreover, the law you're referring to (Deuteronomy 21:18-21) doesn't suggest that a one-time instance of mouthing off to your mother merits a stoning. And it also doesn't say that the child in question should be killed by his father.
If you hate Christians, that's entirely your business and I couldn't care less. It might behoove you, however, to learn what you're talking about. Bigots, after all, are notorious for laboring under misconceptions. No charge for the lesson or the advice.
(And Amy, could you ask Gregg if he can enable subscript and superscript on your blog?)
Patrick at September 22, 2009 9:43 AM
It's not about hating christians, but really, how can any intelligent person follow a religion and a little book that has such hogwash in it? Don't you realize that was written by men not God? Don't you see it has nothing to do with who Jesus was or what he stood for?
The fact that many followers actually try to extract meaning out of a passage like that - to take it literally as the "word of God" - is what's so frightening. Just as scary as Islam and their crazy beliefs about punishing women and children. It's just a short jump to "honor killings" using that passage.
lovelysoul at September 22, 2009 9:52 AM
Lovelysoul, thank you very much. I had asserted earlier that spanking induces aggressive behavior and encourages children to solve conflicts with violence.
And the APA agrees.
Why anyone would need to refer to the APA for what should be obvious is beyond me. Children learn by imitation. You solve your problems with children by hitting them, guess what they're going to do?
Patrick at September 22, 2009 9:56 AM
Amy, it is true, you never raised kids. Inevitably, you lack authority when discussing child-raising. So what, you read some books. BFD.
Additionally, you seem intolerant of children--possibly you are developing "old bachelor" syndrome, set in your ways, and agitated by minor disruptions. The classic "Old Grump." Oh, you love little angels in limited doese when they act just as you want. Otherwise.....
If you ever raise kids, you will develop a different, more-textured, deeper, and more-tolerant (and better) nature. I never see a struggling mom anymore without offering help (if context is proper). A few jokes, a playful poke in the stomach of a young boy can change the whole tone quickly.
Try a compliment. "Your daughter has such beautiful eyes." Suddenly the miscreant is more-quiet and happier with herself.
J. effing crickie, pull that stick out of your ass, Amy.
If you get any older and stuck-up, it's going to take an army of proctologists to fix you.
i-holier-than-thou at September 22, 2009 10:02 AM
Lovelysoul, who said I took the Bible as the word of God? And who said I wasn't keenly aware that the Bible was written by men? When you find that certain gospel writers cover the same events but can't agree on the details it becomes embarrassingly obvious that those who think God transcribed every word must think he's almighty senile. The exact wording of the Lord's Prayer, which never appears the same way twice. How many Gaderene demoniacs did Jesus heal? One (Mark and Luke) or two (Matthew)? How many times did the rooster crow before Peter denied Jesus three times? Once (Matthew) or twice (Mark)? Just rattling off the ones off the top of my head. There are many more.
I'm well aware that certain vocal zealots insist that you must believe that the Bible is the infallible word of God or you're not truly a Christian, but there's no law regarding who can call themselves a Christian or who can't. So, I can call myself a Christian even though I recognize that there are certain irreconcilable differences when two books cover the same account.
I haven't broadbrushed all atheists. Shame the non-believers aren't willing to extend me the same courtesy.
Patrick at September 22, 2009 10:09 AM
"Another recent study proved that spanking toddlers resulted in many more behavior problems and aggressive children."
The study was talking about 1 year olds. Who gives one year olds actual spankings? It was NOT talking about a swat on the butt, either, but full-on spankings. And since Amy is such a fan of careful reading of studies, you anti-spankers need to read better. All studies done on it either include ALL physical abuse in the spanking group, or use ridiculously young kids.
Daycare results in aggressiveness and behavior problems more reliably than spanking, are you against it?
I was spanked as a kid for eggregious offenses. I don't hate my parents or use my fists in arguments. I spank my kids when I feel it necessary, which for me is life-threatening actions. Toddler ran in the road, I spanked immediately, toddler has never since run into road. A 2 year old can not logically reason out that roads are dangerous and why, but can associate the road with an immediate spanking and avoid it. I'd rather my kid have a stinging butt than be dead.
Which is not to say that some parents don't actually use spanking as abuse, or that everyone should spank.
momof4 at September 22, 2009 10:10 AM
i-holier-than-thou, don't be a jackass. Just because a person has never raised children, it doesn't follow that she has no idea what constitutes good parenting and what doesn't. I don't have children either, but I'm the youngest of eleven children. I had a front row seat to the various parenting styles of all my siblings. And this perspective actually lent me a certain degree of objectivity that I wouldn't have had if I were actually in the middle of all this. I see dynamics, some of them bad, repeating themselves in my nieces and nephews. I know what works and what doesn't.
Amy could also have many friends with children, and have some insight into the best behaved children and what their parents do that works.
You can't rule out the opinions of those who have no children. On the contrary, we're the ones able to look at it objectively.
Patrick at September 22, 2009 10:16 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/09/21/dinner_with_kid.html#comment-1668961">comment from i-holier-than-thouAmy, it is true, you never raised kids. Inevitably, you lack authority when discussing child-raising. So what, you read some books. BFD.
I have far more authority on child-raising than many parents. For example, there's a kid who works at the coffee shop where I write; young kid, maybe 20, whose girlfriend is pregnant. This kid isn't going to read a lot of books on how to parent and keep his marriage together, and frankly there aren't many great authorities on either subject.
I did two things for him: Wrote down the name of Gottman's book, And Baby Makes Three: The Six-Step Plan for Preserving Marital Intimacy and Rekindling Romance After Baby Arrives. Then, over the past few days, by e-mailing a number of people in charge and asking on his behalf, I got him a scholarship to Bringing Baby Home, THE best program out there about baby psychology and related issues. For example, per Gottman's and others' research, when a baby is cooing at its parent and turns its head away, parents will turn the kid's head back toward them. Mistake. The kid is calming himself and should be let alone to do it as needed. He'll turn back when he's ready. Forcing him tells him you don't understand his needs -- which, as a pattern, can be damaging to a kid's psychology.
How many mothers do you think know that just because they grew a fetus in their uterus?
Amy Alkon at September 22, 2009 10:19 AM
Patrick, I should've said "they" meaning christians who take the bible literally, rather than "you". I think most sane christians realize the truth and function as you do. Yet, the "spare the rod, spoil the child" does seem to be a basic tenant for many christians these days, which is used to justify spanking.
I'll admit I have resorted to spanking throughout my 18 years of motherhood. I honestly regret each time, and it was so rare that I doubt my kids really remember it. We humans are blessed with the ability to block out most unpleasant experiences, especially in childhood, so I really question people who say, "My dad only hit me once, but he knocked me across the room then". My kids would likely say I never spanked them, but I know I did a few times when I was exhausted and out of ideas.
Being a parent is the only thing that can truly give you empathy for other parents. Before I was a parent, I was a know-it-all on parenting and very judgmental. I could never imagine myself spanking, but until you become a parent, you have no idea where your true limits are. You have no idea of the crazy situations that arise and how you find yourself helpless to come up with a solution that works.
It also depends a lot on the kids you're dealt. My son is brilliant and could argue my socks off at age four. I was completely unprepared to raise a smartmouthed genius, who didn't respond to most traditional punishments. They only seemed to make him more stubborn and defiant. It was more challenging than anything I could ever imagine - and tested my view of who I was as a person and a parent - but we made it through and now he's a fine young man doing well in college (whew!)
So, I don't judge spanking that harshly if used as momoffour uses it - sparingly. At times, it is the quickest way to get the message across. Yet, proponents of spanking tend to use it too much, and yes, they even spank one year olds. That is the problem.
lovelysoul at September 22, 2009 10:34 AM
I don't think it came via growing it in my uterus, but I knew that. You also shouldn't clap their hands for them-they need to wait until they're ready to cross the midbrain like that. Watching you clap is fine though. And talk talk talk to them! talk all day long, a running commentary on what you're doing and the world around you. Don't force them to listen, just talk.
ANd when your 8 year old comes home and says she has a boyfriend, you don't say "you're too young!". You say "how great! What does that mean to you?" because it may just mean they stand together in line, and one should always open dialogue, not shut it down.
momof4 at September 22, 2009 10:35 AM
Psalm 23 "The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want...thy rod and thy staff they comfort me."
Regarding who use "spare the rod" as a justification for corporal punishment simply don't know what the analogy is supposed to infer. Sheep are not difficult unruly animals that need to be beaten into submission. They're also very low to the ground. The rod is used to guide them and encourage them in the direction you wish them to go, not beat them when they misbehave.
To say nothing of the fact that being beaten with a rod is not anyone's idea of comforting.
Patrick at September 22, 2009 10:48 AM
Amen to that, momoffour....so cute, isn't it.
The most awkward parenting moment I can remember is one day, at age 9 or 10, my son came home from a sleepover at a friend's house.
He said, "Mom, you'll never believe what Ray caught his mom doing!"
"What?" I ask.
"He walked in their bedroom and she was on the floor with his dad's pee pee in her mouth!"
I must've dropped my spatula (these conversations tend to occur when you are least prepared for them, like cooking dinner for guests due any minute) and so, I try to adopt the perfect look of horror and disgust, while not laughing. But I must've failed, because his next question was, "You don't do that to DAD do you?!"
I'm a terrible liar, so I stuttered something, and then he knows. "You DO don't you? That's disgusting!"
All I remember is trying to say something about how it's "really a beautiful thing" between adults and he'd understand when he's older. Then, I went in the bedroom and cried, thinking I'd scarred him for life. lol
lovelysoul at September 22, 2009 10:56 AM
Psalm 23 "The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want...thy rod and thy staff they comfort me."
ever notice how many homosexual double entendres there are in the bible?
lujlp at September 22, 2009 11:16 AM
"Why is it so few people these days seem up to the task of parenting?"
Every generation has its "kids nowadays" complaint, but I have to agree that it's parents nowadays that makes me scratch my head. Is it a generational thing? I am Gen X but unlike most of my cohort, my parents weren't Boomers but Silent Generation/Depression kids. Broad brush, but I find those with Boomer parents tend to be self-centered and less mature.
And now we see them raising their own kids and how that's turning out.
LS at September 22, 2009 11:38 AM
"You think? It seems to have gotten worse to me. Not talking about world history, but I'm talking about the last 30-50 years. I haven't seen or heard of the type of violence that seems to erupt in schools and on the buses nowadays."
You need to read more history. Pay particular attention to the big cities in America such as Chicago and New York in the late 19th and early 20th century. Like most people you are guilty of selective bias since the media you read and hear about is about is "current crime" and within your memory as an adult. Crime before 1950's is not is the news,with the exception of a few well publicized cases and most crime stats are only available through archived local media. The internet has amplified people's perception of current crime and since you don't do historical research you assume that it didn't occur. This is also referred to as viewing the past through "rose colored glasses" http://www.amazon.com/Violence-America-History-Crime-Cooperation/dp/0803932286/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1253645517&sr=8-1
Isabel at September 22, 2009 11:54 AM
"He walked in their bedroom and she was on the floor with his dad's pee pee in her mouth!"
door locks, people, door locks!!
momof4 at September 22, 2009 12:16 PM
"He walked in their bedroom and she was on the floor with his dad's pee pee in her mouth!"
Also, doing this on a bed or couch is more comfortable for everyone.
As for needing to have kids in order to have a valid opinion on raising them: If that's true, then having two cats and a dog makes me a veterinarian.
MonicaP at September 22, 2009 12:37 PM
Never once in my life did I ever even consider saying Fuck you to my mother or anything else of the sort. It wasn't because I was afraid of the whooping I'd get. It was because I was raised with respect and to respect. It was something I was taught and it is a very different lesson than the one learned through spankings. I've never hit my children and at 17, 15, and 12, they've never once even come close to saying something like that to me. We've argued, had fights, but there's always been respect.
My ex-husband who was hit frequently as a kid told his parents to fuck off on a pretty regular basis. Our children do not respect him and would love to say it to him but don't because I have taught them that no matter what he does, that is not how we deal with our problems. He would tell you I'm too soft, but he also thinks he's a great father. I'm reasonably sure that as adults, I will still be close with my kids, while he will have a minimal relationship with them. I'm not saying its all over spanking. Its more of the mind-set that goes with it. Spanking is about showing who is in charge and control. My kids have never questioned the fact that I'm the parent and ultimately in charge, where they constantly question their father. I'm the one that has never raised my hand to them and he is the one who thinks its the only way to raise kids.
Kristen at September 22, 2009 12:45 PM
"I see lots of traps that parents fall into in trying to maintain some order with their kids. I see parents trying to be their kids' friend which is a recipe for disaster. Kids have enough friends and don't their parents in that role until the kids are adults. Kids really need parents who are effective at setting limits and being the 'bad guy' when it's necessary."
Absolutely CORRECT! I have no desire to be my kids' "friend". Yes, when my kids are adults I hope we have a close and loving relationship. Right now, I'm the "enemy" because I tell them no, correct them when necessary and punish them when their behavior warrants it. And that's fine. They'll thank me someday. My job is to help guide them into a mature and decent human beings that realize the entire world doesn't revolve around them. And I don't owe them an explanation either. "Because I said so" is a very common phrase in my household....
Beth at September 22, 2009 1:01 PM
Amy-
Be careful of theories. When I had my second baby, I did some web research on whether newborns and younger children (under 6)should sleep with parents (Thai style) or in crib or separate bed, or even separate bedroom (U.S. style).
Opposite theories abound, each proclaiming you will do permanent damage to the children by not following baby-expert dictums.
That was the end of my looking for expert advice, and my adoption of mostly Thai child-raising methods (tried and true!).
The look of horror on my wife's face when, seated at the computer, I informed her that I just read an expert opinion that said our baby should sleep in the next room at nights also quashed any more research.
Guess what? My wife was right. Our son is wonderful. I had to joy of watching him wake up and simultaneously smile when he saw me.
You can take your theories and put them where you need the help with the army of strong-armed and dauntless proctologists.
i-holier-than-thou at September 22, 2009 1:23 PM
My 2 cents on corporal punishment...my 3 brothers and I were on the receiving end of "the stick"(Mom, often) and "the belt" (Dad, infrequently, when we were VERY bad) and we turned out fine. At least, I think we did :-)
We treat our parents and other people with respect, even as adults. I think some of the key things about corporal punishment are:
1) Its effectiveness. A swat or three on the butt for a toddler can be very effective, especially in examples as posted above, such as running out towards the road, reaching for something hot, etc. A spanking for a teen--not so much. It's got to be about negative consequences, and CONSISTENT negative consequences associated with a particular behavior.
2) Motivation behind doing it: If a parent is pissed off at the kid for misbehaving and takes it out physically on the child, there is a recipe for abuse. If done in anger, it is abuse. I occasionally spank my children when I feel it's warranted, but I derive no satisfaction in doing it. I'm not angry at my kids when I do it, but I do want to get my point across that certain behavior generates certain results.
3) I disagree that our society is less violent today. Just look at the public school system--so much of it is out of control. Funny, before Dr. Spock and the whole "corporal punishment is evil" philosophy, teachers and principals actually had some valid authority and there was order in school. Why? Because kids knew the principal could mete out physical punishment and the parents were in agreement and supported the leadership at the school. Most of the time, a paddling at school resulted in a worse one when the kid got home.
Lastly, I disagree that one has to actually have and raise children in order to make intelligent and logical observations about them. There is a great deal to be said about first hand experience, but often times the neutral observer who isn't blinded by parental love/infatuation/adoration also has something to offer parents.
Beth at September 22, 2009 1:44 PM
The idea of babies sleeping in a seperate bedroom is quite a modern american invention. When my father was small, he and all of siblings spent their first few months of life sleeping on my grandfather's chest. Most of them were born in the fall and winter. My grandfather never turned in his sleep and the babies all stayed warm and next to a human heart beat. When the weather got warmer the babies slept in a dresser drawer next to the bed. People only started thinking they needed experts to raise children about the time of the 1950's when Dr Spock came along.
Isabel at September 22, 2009 1:48 PM
hmmm, dad's pee pee in mom's mouth .... I thought that kinda thing disappeared with marriage (jk)
ron at September 22, 2009 1:59 PM
I don't think anyone is contending that non-parents don't have helpful advice or observations to offer. It's just that sometimes they can come off as know-it-alls, and I certainly was one of those myself, so I recognize it. I had done lots of reading and remember being quite judgemental of my in-laws and friends regarding their parenting. But, after having a child of my own, I was humbled by the fact that so much of it can not be learned from books. A book makes it sound easy. They give clean, direct solutions for common problems, and it sounds like all you have to do for problem A is solution B, etc. But that doesn't always work with every child. It's just not that simple.
I finally found true help by joining an online group of moms with gifted kids like mine, and that made an enormous difference...not because they had all the answers but because they were supportive of me feeling it was ok NOT to have all the answers.
The best parents know that there's no one-size-fits-all way of doing things because kids are different. You can have a general guideline, but you can't be too rigid. You may have to toss out everything you think you know about parenting and try something entirely different, as I did. But I don't sense that most non-parents understand that. They still thing A+B=C, and if not, you're doing it wrong.
lovelysoul at September 22, 2009 2:14 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/09/21/dinner_with_kid.html#comment-1669035">comment from i-holier-than-thouYou can take your theories and put them where you need the help with the army of strong-armed and dauntless proctologists.
Gottman is not a "theorist" -- his work is supported by research and data. That's why I think so highly of him. I work very hard, in my column, and in general, to put out the best truth I can. I have an epidemiologist who kicks my ass and is constantly sending me pieces (including one yesterday) to help me be better at reading studies, and in the wee hours this morning, I was on the phone with Detroit-based bioengineering professor Barbara Oakley because I was worried about being accurate about neuroplasticity (for this week's deadline).
To give you another example, here's one tiny piece from a very long e-mail from the epidemiologist that I have posted on my office wall:
Amy Alkon at September 22, 2009 6:07 PM
Bottom line: You don't have to be a parent to have common sense. Or to remember what YOUR parents would have done in situation X, Y, or Z. Or to observe what just plain WORKS in other people's families.
Say Amy, how about a review of one or two of John Rosemond's child-rearing books, since you said there aren't many real "experts" around?
I recommend giving out his books because even when a parent reads one and thinks "well, duh, this is all just comon sense - why do I need it" the answer is "because chances are you're going to be surrounded by parents who DON'T have common sense, so you'll need reminders so as not to become brainwashed."
lenona at September 23, 2009 8:50 AM
One thing I agree with Rosemond on is that he is against "child-centered" families. He believes the best thing parents can do for their kids is to focus on their marriage. His analogy is that the marriage should be like the sun and the kids should orbit around it (rather than the kids being the sun - and moon and stars - to their parents).
Some take that as being neglectful, but I believe he is right. Too many people let their marriages fall apart while catering to the needs of the children. His point is that focusing on the kids doesn't make them more secure, but actually less secure, because they then feel that they are the glue that holds the family together. What happens if they aren't there? (divorce, a lot of times). It puts more pressure on the kids.
That's why I don't think Rosemond would feel this mom is wrong to hold off on family dinners while her kids are this age. He'd probably agree it's better that she and her husband are able to have a quiet, stress-free dinner after a hard day's work, while the kids are in bed, than try to push the whole family dinner dynamic at this point. There's plenty of time to start that once the kids are old enough to really contribute to dinner conversation.
It's important to practice it - have young kids show table manners and not get up from their chairs, but I don't think it's necessary to do it every night at such a young age unless the parents enjoy it. As someone else pointed out, it used to be a privilege to join the adult table. There's nothing wrong with having kids earn that privilege.
lovelysoul at September 23, 2009 9:15 AM
Once, a young woman at a Mensa meeting said she did not believe in spankings. She said, "My dad spanked me once, and I have never forgotten it."
I started laughing, and she finally asked why I was laughing.
I told her it sounded like her dad was really good at spanking. She needed it once, she got it, and therefore never needed it again, because she never forgot it.
She thought a minute, and then laughed and said she hadn't thought of it that way before.
irlandes at September 23, 2009 1:46 PM
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