We've established that Letterman was foolish, but this seems a little over the top.

"Less than five minutes in, the biggest wig there, in the centre of the front row, put his hand up and asked if she actually knew what she was talking about or if she was just the looker. No one said anything in her defence."

Indeed. In fact, if someone else has to speak up on her behalf, it tends to indicate that she is just a looker.

Sure, the guy was rude. Knowing people of this type, it may well have been deliberate: "If she can stand a bit of heat, there's a project that needs her." If that's how it was, a straight, simple answer would probably have impressed the hell out of him.

When is somebody going to lambast Barb for picking an intelligent, capable and stable guy who has proved himself in Antarctic service?

(Three cheers for them both!)

That's probably not the advice available in Cosmo.

Fine point on attractiveness: Kournikova was not Maxim's #1, Sexiest Woman of the Year, for her wiggle, because she doesn't have one. It's her demonstrated skills and fitness. In another venue, Lindy Cooper Wisdom inspired awe among fans of her father Jeff for her books and skill with her personal Steyr Scout.

Capable = HOT. Continuously!

Megan's right on with this. Kournikova is not known for her skills. She's got looks.

. . . leaping around Angelina Jolie-style, in a black leather bustier, and blowing away terrorists. For that sort of thing, I go to a darkened movie theater with Gregg.

Good idea; you're much less likely to be recognized that way. Those teeny masks that cover the eyes only really work in the movies.

"do as Allison Smith does on the ToL site, and sniffle about how male celebrities don't have to expose flesh on the red carpet."

This is one of the things that drives guys I know absolutely crazy.
Women don't have to dress that way. They are adults and dress themselves.

If they couldn't dress that way there would be a woman somewhere complaining.

The women have freedom of choice to dress the way they want and somehow a woman is still a victim?

Megan Fox is projecting. Yes many young actresses are sex symbols, but that's not their entire worth as a 'product', and there are plenty of actresses that aren't sex symbols.

As for the story about the engineer, it's probably made-up. Not that's it's impossible, just too perfect.

The other women are confusing prudishness for sexism.

Actually, I buy the story about the engineer. But as Bradley said, it was probably a deliberate statement made to see how she would do under pressure. (Otherwise, I want to know what engineering firm can afford to have office bimbos, such that there would be a question about it. Certainly not any company I know of.)

Men do that sort of thing to each other all the time. And yes, a simple answer like "Well, I have a Ph. D. in mechanical engineering from Georgia Tech -- what else do you want to know?" would have been the best response. Challenge met, and we're all square.

And as for the men in Hollywood: there are plenty who would be happy to flash flesh on the red carpet if they thought that anyone wanted to see it. But they know that nobody does.

And as for the men in Hollywood: there are plenty who would be happy to flash flesh on the red carpet if they thought that anyone wanted to see it. But they know that nobody does.

Sez who?? I wouldn't mind seeing what some of those guys are packin', and if they're packin' anything worthwhile, they shouldn't be shy about showing it! (Also, I'd love to know who else goes commando, besides John Stamos...)

o.O

"But as Bradley said, it was probably a deliberate statement made to see how she would do under pressure."

Nah, that is how socially awkward engineers flirt. If you don't believe me, go hang out with a few. They are often unbelievably rude in their statements to women when they are actually trying to compliment them. Guys like that never really figure it out when it comes to gals. So a middle-aged "alpha" engineer in that setting thought he would be cool and show everyone how hip and confident he was. He probably knew she was competent, but wanted to compliment her on her looks too. What resulted was a really dumb comment that insulted her and made him look like an ass.

She should have politely said, "Yeah, I know what I am doing, and thanks for the compliment about my looks. Next question." But she should follow it up with an side converation with that guy of "what was that about?" Just to make it clear he made a faux pas and give him a chance to recover privately. If he is smarmy or jerkish then in that meeting, he is just an ass and she needs to write him off. More likely he would have backpedaled and said he was trying to make a joke and it came out really poorly. A good professional contact could then easily be made.

Women who think every possible social faux pas is a punch to their lady parts need to get over that. Most guys are not like that, and the ones that are will let you know it pretty quickly.

Personally I'd have been flattered by the engineering comment. I mean, no one would have said that to Rosie O'Donnell, right? But maybe that's just me.

The past two summers (when I was 17 and 18) I worked as a Sales Rep/Intern at a small IT security company. Basically all guys. They had me record their company voicemail message and attend a bunch of trade shows to give the impression of the presence of women in the country. I thought that was awesome. If being a woman in a male-dominated field is an asset, of course I'm going to capitalize on that. Why not?

"If being a woman in a male-dominated field is an asset, of course I'm going to capitalize on that. Why not?"

Free advice from someone you will never meet: be verrrry careful where you go with that attitude.

99.9% guys under age 40 will harbor no resentment of you for being a woman in the workplace. But if you trade on being a woman, 99.9% of them will hold that against you, without ever bothering to explain it to you.

The women I respected most in workplaces knew where the line was and stayed away from it. They were women, no doubt about it, but they did not use that to gain advantage.

The women I respected the least were flirting, crying, manipulating with sex appeal and otherwise engaging in behavior that most guys feel is out of bounds. Men typically quietly retreat from giving such women any professional support or collegiality. The women find themselves isolated and friendless in the workplace.

What they then probably thought was sexism was the quite rational treatment of a colleague who tries to game the system using some inappropriate connection with bosses or customers. Men know that women who trade on the gender to get ahead will likely find it easy to use that as a weapon later. And people like that are grenades waiting to go off.

In short, if you want to be treated like the boss's nephew who got the job because he is family, trade on being a woman in a male-dominated workplace. If you want to be treated like the good engineer who just happens to be the boss's nephew, *don't* do that.

But if you do trade on being a woman, don't blame sexism when your male colleagues don't seem to offer you much support and keep their distance. You have self-identified as someone who uses gender as a tool in the competition for advancement. Anyone who worked in America in the past 25 years knows that means trouble is ahead when you start to experience the inevitable frustration of not always winning that competition.

"99.9% guys under age 40 will harbor no resentment of you for being a woman in the workplace. But if you trade on being a woman, 99.9% of them will hold that against you, without ever bothering to explain it to you."

Now that was well said!

Gotta disagree with you here, Amy. One reason things like this are so rampant is that nobody sticks up for anybody anymore.

And, Spartee, this was not a social faux pas. This was someone humiliating someone else in a public venue. A bigwig, who certainly would have (or should have) known the creds of the presenter. A boss, who knew that nobody would stop him. This was a power play.

Having grown up as a tomboy, I am well aware that men--real men--stand up and speak out against injustice. Real men do not stand by and let other people be bullied. I've witnessed it. There were no real men in that audience.

Spartee, I agree with your last comment wholeheartedly--but I have to say that I have occasionally treated as the flighty female despite my behavior to the contrary.

I lose all respect for people who operate purely out of confirmation bias.

No one said anything in her defense. (Not defence. Although barbed-wire can be both.)

So, what did she do? Cry?

Imagine a man standing up and saying something like, "Hey, now you've gone too far, Buster. Apologize to the lady!"

He would not only make things worse for her, he would also have the other guys wondering if they were sleeping together.

I work with a bunch of men, one of whom likes to say that women are evil (generally when he's having a problem with his wife). I usually give him a villain laugh, say he's right and our plot is coming along quite nicely, thank you.

>>Imagine a man standing up and saying something like, "Hey, now you've gone too far, Buster. Apologize to the lady!"

Why on earth would audience-guy speak like a 1950s cartoon?

(Sexism be damned. I agree with deathbysnoosnoo, the "looker" crack in this context is oafish bullying).

Spartee: thanks because that is good advice and definitely something for me to keep in mind. Just to clarify, I meant capitalize in the sense accepting any advantages that come with being a minority (like if a company wants a male and female representative at an event, and there are 90 men and 10 women in the company, being a woman is an advantage for getting picked) as opposed to, say, sleeping with the boss.

The same would go for a male in a female-dominated field. This is sort of a silly example, but my high school choir was hugely female-dominated, so getting a spot as a girl was highly competitive. In contrast, any guy who wanted to could join and the choir teacher went out of her way to recruit and cater to prospective guys. So a guy would have competitive advantage in becoming a choir singer instead of a football player, just as a girl would have competitive advantage becoming a engineer instead of, say, an English teacher.

There's also something to be said for being underestimated. My dad told me once about a lawyer he knew who had a very thick, heavy Southern accent, so people assumed he wasn't very smart. He was extremely successful because he WAS smart, but his accent would put his opponents off their guard and take them by surprise. So if you can impress people with your intelligence despite preconceptions about your looks/gender, then more power to you.

When I was very young and in sales, I once had a boss who would ask me really sexist questions whenever I brought in a big client, like, "What did you do to get this deal - sleep with the guy?"

I just laughed it off and played it as a joke. Sometimes, I'd even pretend that's what I actually did, just to point out the absurdity. I'd say, "Yeah, I blew him under the desk for hours. I'm exhausted! Can I go home early?" He'd laugh.

We became friends and eventually he learned to be more politically correct. Before I worked there, he'd never hired a female salesperson, but after I left, there were many.

I don't know if that was the right way to handle things, but I feel that if I'd acted offended or pissed off, he would've not had as much respect for me ultimately. It would've given him all the power and made me seem intimidated.

Engineering example: Questioning someone like that is not that unusual, in the science/engineering field, on one of your first times presenting. They need to see if you can handle the pressure and how you handle the unexpected. As to did the big wig know her, probably not really. Similar thing happened to me on my first presentation. The big wig challenged me on one of my assumptions in the middle of my presentation, called me a young pup. I fired back with reasons for the assumption (turns out we were both partially right), probably because I had never seen him before I didn't know how big wig he was. I heard from my boss's boss's boss that my science was a bit sloppy, but I handled the unexpected better than most. The result I was sent out to give other presentations usually with a more experienced partner, more than most of the other new employees were.

a couple of things about our engineering friend, maybe missed. Guy is at the top of the chain, maybe the company CEO or summat. Do you think ohter guys in the room would cross him for that? Why would they put their own careers on the line? Big bosses can often act like jerks... but if the story happened that way, then there are a couple of takeaways. He certainly was testing her mettle, AND potentially telling her implicitly that her presentation wasn't credible. If he was a big boss engineer that actually WAS an engineer, she wasn't engaging well, maybe assuming he didn't know that much. Big bosses can be hard to guage. Some want the 50,000foot view because they don't need the details, and some want it because they don't understand what you are saying anyway. Still others are insulted that you arent explaining every little granule to them. Those ones are often testing you to see if you actually know what you are talking about.

Sounds like our young femme engineer had a golden opportunity to impress the brass, and blew it. She won't do well as an engineer in a smaller firm until she toughens up. At a large firm, OTOH there are rules and such against that, and even a big boss being so overt would be talking to legal. It's a competitive world, you have to bring your best stuff.

As for Fox, well, she seems like a drama queen to me, always looking for the camera. If she is a professional on set, that's great. But I am far more interested in a Natalie Portman who did her schooling and could make it doing anything, I'd wager.

"Why on earth would audience-guy speak like a 1950s cartoon?"

Because I grew up with 1950's cartoons, and that's how I imagined that particular scenario. Feel free to put a 21st century spin on it. Oh wait, you can't, because there are no examples. I agree with deathbysnoosnoo on that point, which makes it even more necessary for women to learn to stand up for themselves.

After all, we can't always be running to the human resources department.

SwissArmyD - even in a small firm all that woman would have to do is go to the local EEO office and file a complaint against him. We've set up society such that women get special protections from abuse. I agree he shouldn't have said "looker", but if he had omitted that word then it wouldn't have been any different from any other smart guy who challenged a male engineer presenter a million times before.

Sorry Amy, my computer red-lined defence when I typed it, and I just went with it.

I understand the direction the discussion is going, but there is one thought I need to put out there, with regards to Megan Fox's "well thought out statement".

If you believe that women in Hollywood are "sold" as sexual objects to grace a film with, you need to go study under Julia Roberts, or Drew Barrymoore. They manage to get engaging roles, and be sexy, competant, intelligent, and can offer more then a full blouse of "talent". Don't dare generalize the actresses of America who -aren't- full of shit, just because you are.

And a second thought: Your carefully structured statement leaves me with a sincere hope you never breed. I'd hare to think of another child growing up with the idea that being bought and sold based on your curves is "empowering" or even "okay".

/end rant

Regarding the engineering story, no one seems to have considered that, you know, maybe the girl in question was saying some really dumb shit and acting incompetent. It's a possibility.

It's also unclear whether she spoke up for herself after that point. The way it seems to me is that the story teller was making the point that no one in this group of presumably older employees said anything in her defense or to call the bigwig on his inappropriateness. I agree they were probably all worried about their jobs, but it is rather disheartening that no one would try to counter such an obviously sexist remark. Yet, we really don't know how she responded.

and sniffle about how male celebrities don't have to expose flesh on the red carpet.

I certainly wouldn't say No, if they wanted to start doing that!!!

I like that there has been a bit more male frontal nudity in movies.

I've worked in various engineering positions for nearly two decades, with teams from a variety of companies (e.g. TI, Boeing, HP, Loral ...), and I've honestly never encountered the sort of hazing that some of the commenters here claim is use to test people under pressure. That's not to say that a new person won't encounter pointed questions regarding their competency in a given domain, but I've never seen anyone humiliated or harassed for this purpose.

And keep in mind that this women was the representative of another company who'd come in to make a presentation. If the incident occurred in the way that it's been presented, the 'bigwig' was way out of line.

SwissArmyD - even in a small firm all that woman would have to do is go to the local EEO office and file a complaint against him. We've set up society such that women get special protections from abuse.
...
Posted by: Crusader at October 30, 2009 10:52 AM
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Which is why you don't see the "real men" snoosnoo mentions or really anybody doing much to stand up for others. There is far too much legal/physical risk.

"I like that there has been a bit more male frontal nudity in movies."

Try "Piano" A brief shot of Harvey Keitel is very appropriate for the theme of the movie to work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKua_0AtcLk&feature=fvw

Right tekende. I have given tons of presentations to scientists, and never has anyone questioned my knowledge on account of being a women. Never, ever. We may make jokes about sex in small groups, but no one has ever dissed my intelligence to my face in public for being a chick. But then again, I dress the part and give good lectures (or think that I do). I suppose if you show up with too much make-up and short skirt, you will either totally get their attention or they will write you off as a bimbo. Depending on your talk. Personally, I think that academic women who need to use their looks to fill seats are worthless.

>>Yet, we really don't know how she responded.

I heard she strangled the jerk with her stockings, lovelysoul.

To maintain the awesome professional standards of the meeting:)

Ahem. So, can you respect an officer dressed like this?

"put his hand up and asked if she actually knew what she was talking about or if she was just the looker. No one said anything in her defence."

Oh sorry, is this the part where I feign shock and outrage and shed big empathetic crocodile tears? When I was a young graduate in the software industry I had almost eerily similar types of comments and put-downs from "bigwigs", just without the reference to gender, since I'm a white male. It's just part of life in the 'big bad' corporate world, not sexism. Since I couldn't blame it all on my gender, I didn't go home and cry on my pillow; instead I left and started my own business, which is incidentally now steadily approaching the size of the one I left.

And funnily enough, now that I think about it, when at university I even had a female lecturer publicly call me an idiot once. Now, had the genders been reversed I probably would've cried to the world about sexism and the evil patriarchy and played victim endlessly, but really I never thought anything of it, I was more amused than anything. I know what my capabilities are, I don't let some random person like a lecturer or (former) boss define my limits.

Emma, darling, please tell us why her lips were taped shut with electrical tape, prohibiting her from speaking up in her own behalf.

Precisely.

Back in the Womens Lib days - yes, I'm THAT old - the chant went "I am woman. Hear me roar."

Sometimes I think latterday feminism needs a large dose of womens lib shoved up it.

I just watched Slumdog Millionaire and was amazed by how beautiful Freida Pinto is - http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images;_ylt=A0WTefXZ5MZJBkMBL6WJzbkF?p=freida+pinto&fr=slv8-msgr&ei=utf-8&x=wrt