Screamers On A Plane
I have an op-ed in Tuesday's LA Times. An excerpt:
BY AMY ALKON -- A little late in making those Thanksgiving flight plans? Wondering how you could possibly afford your ticket...that is, without putting a kidney up for sale on Craigslist? Good news! You can get a free flight home on Southwest, plus a $300 travel voucher. Just do what I plan to -- get on a Southwest flight in the next few days, and when it's taking off, shout over and over, "Go, Plane, Go!" and "I want Daddy! I want Daddy!"Pamela Root got both the free flight and the voucher, plus an apology from Southwest, after her 2-year-old kept screaming those things at the top of his little lungs as their San Jose-bound flight was about to take off. In fact, little Adam reportedly screamed so loudly that the safety announcements couldn't be heard, and the pilot turned the plane back to the gate in Amarillo, Texas, where the two were booted off.
Root was appalled when a flight attendant told her something to the effect of "We just can't tolerate that (screaming) for two hours," reported the Mercury News. Root insisted Adam would be "fine once we take off" -- which, in my book, either means "He'll be fine" or "It would be a serious pain in the butt to be stuck in Amarillo another day."
Unbelievably, Root demanded the apology that she eventually got from the airline (shame, shame, Southwest), and hit them up for the cost of diapers and the "portable crib" she says she had to buy for the overnight stay. Even more unbelievably, there's still no word of any apology from Root to the other passengers -- people whose idea of an in-flight bonus is probably more along the lines of a free drink or a passenger in front of them who reclines his seat without turning their laptop into an expensive doorstop.
There is a notion, reflected in numerous blog comments about the incident, that other passengers should "just deal" and "give a kid a break." This notion is wrong. Parents like Root and others who selfishly force the rest of us to pay the cost of their choices in life aren't just bothering us; they're stealing from us. Most people don't see it this way, because what they're stealing isn't a thing we can grab onto, like a wallet. They're stealing our attention, our time, and our peace of mind.
More and more, we're all victims of these many small muggings every day. Our perp doesn't wear a ski mask or carry a gun; he wears Dockers and shouts into his iPhone in the line behind us at Starbucks, streaming his dull life into our brains, never considering for a moment whether our attention belongs to him. These little acts of social thuggery are inconsequential in and of themselves, but they add up -- wearing away at our patience and good nature and making our daily lives feel like one big wrestling smackdown. (piece continues at LAT link)
And I hope you'll buy my book, I SEE RUDE PEOPLE: One woman's battle to beat some manners into impolite society.
"For I'm screaming...on a jet plane...don't know when I'll take a breath again."
"Jet plane" is redundant.
Glad someone's on the front lines, battling this parental presumption that dictates, "I have the right to inflict my recalcitrant brat on everyone else and they have no right to object."
Patrick at November 24, 2009 12:07 AM
How old was the kid? If he was 4, then maybe yes he's the product of bad parenting. But if the kid is in "terrible twos" then it could happen to anyone.
Hangzhou at November 24, 2009 12:20 AM
Amy's article says the child is two. I don't buy it. Two can still behave.
Patrick at November 24, 2009 12:23 AM
Amy, this reminds me of my first email to you all those years ago, when I said "You rock! You rule! I am your biggest fan!".
Paul at November 24, 2009 12:53 AM
A two year old can be kept quiet for 2 hours.
Did she have books? A Comfy-type computer game or audio CDs with earphones?
Did she plan the flight to coincide with nap time? Take the kid to the park that morning?
Did she tell flight attendants she wanted to board the plane at the last minute possible - inconveniencing herself rather than others?
The kid repeatedly shouted the same thing - that means nobody was hushing him up. Parenting fail.
Ben-David at November 24, 2009 1:27 AM
""Jet plane" is redundant."
Of course it isn't. Even today.
Radwaste at November 24, 2009 2:21 AM
If the parent knew the child was capable of starting this crap and took him on a plane anywyay she deserved to get kicked off. When my son (now 12) was 6 months old I took a train from London to Glasgow. Long journey. My son started screaming. And screaming. So I went and sat in a train toilet with him for an hour until he calmed down. Relieved and grateful passengers all around. Never took him to a movie until he was four, because by that age he could sit down and be quiet and actually watch the movie and let others watch it too. The difference is that I understand my duty as a parent is to look after my own children, not inflict them on others. It is almost always possible to remove loud and annoying children from the public, problem is some people simply don't bother.
Alison Dennehy at November 24, 2009 3:05 AM
I wrote: "Jet plane" is redundant.
Rad writes: Of course it isn't. Even today.
I'm not saying all planes are jets. But all jets are planes. Once you specify that you're "leaving on a jet," you don't need to specify that it's a plane. Therefore, it's redundant.
Like "tuna fish." Not all fish are tuna, but all tuna are fish, therefore "tuna fish" is redundant. What else could it be if it were tuna? Tuna beef? Tuna pork?
I detest redundant expressions. Such as "rehash" and "irregardless." I've never understood why people felt the need to ask someone for an "ink pen." I assume you're not asking for a playpen or a "pig sty" (which is also redundant). I met someone once who told his employer paid him in "cash money."
Some of the other expressions that bug me are, "close proximity," "convicted felon," "advance warning," "past experience," "untapped potential," "false illusion," "ATM machine," "PIN number," "safe haven," "shrimp scampi," "chicken Coq Au Vin," "former Veteran," "basic essentials," "end result," "Xerox copy," "all-inclusive," etc.
I do make allowances for children, when it comes to redundancies, though. I'm not going to chastise a child for saying "kitty cat," "bunny rabbit," or "puppy dog."
By contrast, oxymorons and malaprops entertain me. My favorite oxymoron is "false information." I once heard the gym supervisor tell a personal trainer on his staff, "You're here at my discrepancy." Annoyed that he should reprimanding someone on staff within earshot of a member, I had to resist the urge to tell him, "The word is 'discretion.'"
Patrick at November 24, 2009 3:41 AM
How unfortunate. I always thought that Herb Kelleher was one of the smartest men in business because he hated the slogan "The customer is always right." His attitude was that his employees should be treated well, including trusting their judgment when they determined that a customer should be denied boarding. I don't think he would have second-guessed the flight crew in this case.
Richard at November 24, 2009 3:44 AM
"Two can still behave."--Patrick
May I presume that you're never been the father of a 2 year old?
Yes, it could have happened to anyone (the tantrum(s)) but still the parent's behavior was inexcusably rude. SHE should have been all kinds of apologetic to everyone who was subjected to the screaming and figured out some way to manage, mitigate, etc. her kid's behavior.
My own method, when I found myself on a trans-Pacific flight with my then 2 and a half year old daughter--was to whisper to her that there were monsters in the overhead bins, sleeping, and that we had to be really, really quiet so as not to wake them up. Hey, it worked. She was good as gold on the return flight, in stark contrast to the first leg, where she chafed and cried over having to buckle her seat belt.
I agree with Alison--one of my peeves is people who insist on bringing their children to the movie theater that are entirely age-inappropiate. Not only do they get exposed to alot of garbage beyond their maturity level, they ruin the movie for everyone around them. Two alternative options--either hire a babysitter when you decide on a night at the movies, OR wait until the movie comes out on DVD and watch in the comfort of your own four walls when your kiddies are in bed. It amazes and disgusts me when I see 3 and 4 year olds at R-rated movies.
the other Beth at November 24, 2009 4:06 AM
Oh, there's fussing and then there's fussing. I've seen both and have been on both ends of it. Our middle daughter was two when we left our assignment in Japan. While she didn't fuss (and did flirt a lot with the handsome GI sitting behind us), she did throw up. Twice.
Was on a flight from Atlanta to Newport News one night, one of those little puddle-jumper planes. The only woman on the plane had a crying baby with her. She apologized profusely, but apparently, all the men on the flight were husbands and fathers: I heard lots of replies like "No ma'am, don't worry," "I've got three myself," or "Oh, your baby's fine, ma'am." Good feelings filled the cabin and I don't remember the baby fussing at all the rest of the way. Sometimes a little apology goes a long way.
old rpm daddy at November 24, 2009 4:54 AM
I actually write about Kelleher and the beginnings of Southwest in my book. And Allison, thank you -- you're a parent in a world of "parents."
Amy Alkon at November 24, 2009 5:01 AM
Two things patrick - stys arent the exclusive domains of pigs - thiers just happen to have a particularly peculiar oder
Second, former veteran isnt a redundant phrase, the way the armed forces work if you are enlisted is you have a 8 yr contract, a few years active drty a few years where you can be called back into service.
Offices can reapply for their commisions once retired as well in certian circumstances
lujlp at November 24, 2009 5:17 AM
To be fair, they should have given her a warning, a "If you can't keep your child quiet we are going to have to ask you to leave the plane"
NicoleK at November 24, 2009 5:53 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/11/24/screamers_on_a.html#comment-1678736">comment from NicoleKWhy does an adult parent need to be warned about this?
Amy Alkon at November 24, 2009 6:07 AM
Really? Monsters? Talk about potentially damaging crappy parenting-might as well threaten to beat the shit out of her. My kids fly well. SOme don't. The mom should've worked on the problem, and been apologetic if it wasn't shush-able. Contrary to not-a-dad patrick's views, sometimes 2 year olds are just going to tantrum. period. Nothing to do but wait it out. It's developmental, not behavioral. And one can't always tell beforehand when it's going to kick off, so saying just don't fly if the kid can't behave is not really helpful or practical. Sometimes, one has to get somewhere, on a plane. Funerals, illnesses, etc.
Southwest shouldn't have done anything for her, however.
momof4 at November 24, 2009 6:27 AM
When daughter #1 was almost 3, and I was pregnant with #2, we flew to Florida to see my ailing great-grandmother before she passed. I scheduled the flight for fairly early in the day, around 10 a.m. #1 slept in the car on the way to the airport, so there was no chance of her napping. What I also did was bring a small bag of toys for her, and I had some snacks for her in my bag. She sat quietly and played with her toys, and only got loud the one time she insisted she could have "candy NOW, mom!" I gave her a bag of those little "fruit snack" things, and she was fine. The flight attendants all gave us a smile as we were leaving the plane, and one thanked her for behaving. #1 replied "I save my badness for home."
o.O
Flynne at November 24, 2009 6:34 AM
As it just so happens, I too am the parent of a two-year-old, and we don't take him on airplanes in order to avoid situations like the one in the story. (And also because driving all day gets us there on time more frequently than flying, but that's another story.)
Pseudonym at November 24, 2009 6:41 AM
M4: Thanks for your observation on my parenting skills. Desparate times call for desparate measures. By the way she'll be 12 in a few weeks and is a happy and balanced kid, so she did turn out fine.
--mom of 3
the other Beth at November 24, 2009 6:44 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/11/24/screamers_on_a.html#comment-1678742">comment from Flynne#1 replied "I save my badness for home."
Love that, Flynne - reminds me of my neighbors' kids. They know I'm not really a kid person (although I love them - and it helps that they're raised well, and polite, sweet kids who try to be considerate of me), and when I babysit them, they are especially well-behaved, where they will test boundaries with their mom.
And thanks, Pseud, from all of us with eardrums! I write about parents like you in my book.
Also, I write about my friend Sergeant Heather, and how she deals with having an autistic child who sometimes goes to certain selected public events. She lets people know he is autistic and there might be an outburst, and she's sorry if there is, and people exhibit a great deal of generosity of spirit. And her child is just wonderful - I adore him and write him letters from the elephants and the cheetahs (whose names happen to be Bob, Kelly, and Frank).
Amy Alkon at November 24, 2009 7:26 AM
"Why does an adult parent need to be warned about this?"
Because anyone can have a baby, with or without forethought and common sense?
Juliana at November 24, 2009 7:29 AM
Actually close proximity, advance warning, and untapped potential are not redundant. Neither for that matter, are xerox copy or all-inclusive.
Proximity refers to distance, while I'll grant you it is usually intended to mean not a great distance...say, two people in the same room, the phrase "close proximity" puts rather a mental picture of being just inside the bad breath zone.
Advance warning, well a warning is by its very nature, prior to the problem or danger in question, however "advance" warning, refers to a caution given significantly farther from the actual hazard. Warning someone the day before going to a club where a violent ex works as a bouncer would be the circumstance used to describe "advance warning" while giving the same caution when in line or going inside the club would be just "warning". It is a matter of the proximity of the hazard to the present.
And untapped potential, well I wonder why you would ever consider that redundant, after all, untapped is "untouched" or "unused" while potential, granted it does refer to one's peak, if one is conditioning and training in a given aspect, then the potential is indeed being tapped. It simply has not peaked yet. One might use the phrase "untapped potential" for a brilliant but lazy student, who could do more, but chooses not to. While "potential" might refer to a brilliant but hard working student, who is steadily moving towards the peak of his ability.
Xerox copy is also not redundant, once upon a time it was, but xerox is no longer solely a copy machine, it functions as a digital sender and a printer as well. It is also no longer the only copy machine out there, therefore specifying a xerox copy refers to both the machine type and seperately the intended function, making it nonredundant. I'll grant you that saying "I'll xerox it" is still a clear expression commonly understood in our culture, due to the long time dominance of that sole company for that sole function, but specifying machine & function are no longer redundant.
The term "all inclusive" at first glance appears redundant...but let us take apart the phrase. "An inclusive vacation to disney world!" Ok...inclusive of what? How do we know from that phrase it includes ALL the requisite features of a vacation, room, food, and other expected amenities. The addition of the word "All" is intended to reference the fact that all amenities are included in the vacation package. Ergo, nonredundant.
And lastly, your pointing out of the redundancy of "Jet plane" while entirely accurate, overlooks the need for poetical elaboration. Try singing the song aloud, and cut out the word "plane" it just does not fit the melody. I'm all for correctness, but as author after author has pointed out, grammatical correctness should not stand in the way of clarity nor artistry. Sometimes the rules must be broken to ensure that the desired result is achieved. That is how art and music develop, that is how language itself develops, by breaking the old mode to bring about something new.
The rest of what you pointed out...yes, irksome.
Robert at November 24, 2009 7:34 AM
The perpetually-pissy Momof4 insists that "not-a-dad Patrick" has no right to weigh on the subject of 2-year-olds behaving.
True, I am not a dad. I am, however, the youngest of 11 children. I have over two dozen nieces and nephews, and have babysat all, except the oldest, as she is only four years younger than me.
And each and every one of them knew that tantrums did not fly with Uncle Patrick. They started acting up, they sat in a corner on the floor. They tried to leave that spot, I would put them right back, and they didn't leave until they well and truly understood that kicking and screaming is not acceptable. They also learned that just because we weren't at home, I was not above giving them a time out in public.
Regardless of their conduct at home, they behaved around me. They are allowed to express their displeasure, and I will be happy to discuss as best I can why things can't be the way they want. And yes, you can discuss with two-year-olds. It didn't take them long to realize that tantrums are the strategy to use around Uncle Patrick.
And spanking is not acceptable, period.
And being recalled on active duty still makes him a veteran, not a "former veteran." The phrase is redundant.
Patrick at November 24, 2009 7:37 AM
I'm a mom of merely 2, but I don't have a problem with The Other Beth's methods - they worked, and her kid was not traumatized. I honestly can't think of what I would have done differently, except not taken a plane. I can't think of any emergency that would ever have forced me to take my kids on an airplane at that age. I would pay whatever it took for child care so I wouldn't have to bring them. When a tantrum starts, you really can't do anything about it. All of the experts recommend ignoring the child while having a tantrum - give the child no attention either positive or negative. Of course, this can't be done in public, which is why I had to abandon my groceries many times and just get the kid the hell out of there. I would WANT them to let me off the plane if my kid started screaming because I would have a nervous breakdown being trapped in that situation. Imagine how the other passengers would feel.
KarenW at November 24, 2009 7:40 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/11/24/screamers_on_a.html#comment-1678747">comment from Patrickinsists that "not-a-dad Patrick" has no right to weigh on the subject of 2-year-olds behaving.
Totally disagree on this, and discuss in my book. Having working ovaries and getting pregnant and giving birth or giving the sperm to make that happen makes you a person who has reproduced, not a parenting expert.
Amy Alkon at November 24, 2009 7:40 AM
And before I forget:
sty
1 /staɪ/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [stahy] Show IPA ,noun, plural sties, verb, stied, sty⋅ing.
Use sty in a Sentence
See web results for sty
See images of sty
–noun
1. a pen or enclosure for swine; pigpen.
2. any filthy place or abode.
3. a place of bestial debauchery.
–verb (used with object)
4. to keep or lodge in or as if in a sty.
–verb (used without object)
5. to live in or as if in a sty.
Notice, no other animals are specified as the type that are kept in sties? "Pig sty" is redundant.
Patrick at November 24, 2009 7:41 AM
Karen, thanks. Although, truth be told, it wasn't one of my proudest parenting moments. I was...desparate. Traveling alone, from Cleveland OH to Japan, with a stubborn little 2 year old. I would've done anything to get her to stay quiet. I felt badly about it at the time; and still a little bit of residual guilt remains, but we've gotten through it, and then some :-)
I will say this, though, being an uncle or friend who watches/visits kids is not going to be the same perspective as being a parent yourself. It just isn't the same.
You all said it yourselves; kids will push their parents in a way they won't do with people they aren't as familiar with....I see the way my kids respond to my 3 brothers all the time. Aunts/uncles enjoy a different type of relationship with kids. They're generally not the strict disciplinarians and more of the "fun" adults, so of course kids are going to respond more amenably in general.
I don't think it's fair to call mom of 4 names though. She is entitled to her opinions as much as anyone else.
the other Beth at November 24, 2009 8:03 AM
I've been both the embarrassed parent of 2-years-of-pure-evil and passenger-in-agony (having to travel with a sinus infection, a migraine and someone else's uncontrolled pro-choice poster child in the seat next to me.) Because of the latter, I am very very sensitive to the former, making sure that my little hoodlum is quietly entertained, even if it means me having no personal peace so my co-passengers can have some -- as so it should be. I've had a lot of compliments on how we manage our little DB Cooper especially on flights where other parents have brought on their own little Badder Minehoff gang.
And Just because Momof4 has kids, doesn't mean a) those of us who didn't at the time of the nightmare at 20,000 ft should keep our mouth shut and b) those of us who do should take the back of any lax parent on board.
As others have said, there are ways to pacify the little nose pickers, train them for long travel, and remind them that in the event of sudden cabin pressure loss, or unruly behavior, mother frackin' snakes will drop from the mother frackin' plane's ceiling just like the flight attendant demonstrates at the start of the ride. That's not an oxygen mask, kid. It's a clear mamba with a cone of shame so it doesn't bite itself.
Bill at November 24, 2009 8:04 AM
Anyone else think it stupid and irresponsible of the pilot to turn a plane around because a two year old was misbehaving? Lots of other passengers lives were disrupted that day.
And if you can't take a crying baby and you are getting on a plane, take earplugs. And a sleeping mask. Sheesh!
Eric at November 24, 2009 8:22 AM
And suddenly this turns from a 30 comment thread into a 90 comment one.
Pseudonym at November 24, 2009 8:25 AM
"And if you can't take a crying baby and you are getting on a plane, take earplugs. And a sleeping mask. Sheesh!"
Yeah, those earplugs are going to help you when the squealing fartling is sitting right next to you. I know, I've tried (with other people's kids of course).
As for turning the plane around, it had to have been very bad on board for the plane to be turned around. Out-off-on-in stats are critical for pilot evaluations. Scrubbing a flight is serious. And not preventing flight attendant instructions is very serious.
Bill at November 24, 2009 8:28 AM
@ Patrick
First, there are jet skis and jet boats just to name two, so if one is leaving on a jet, it doesn't necessarily have to be a plane.
Second, the line is an allusion to the John Denver song, so blame John, not Amy.
Michael Eades at November 24, 2009 8:28 AM
I will say this, though, being an uncle or friend who watches/visits kids is not going to be the same perspective as being a parent yourself. It just isn't the same.
Amen to that! I was the preferred babysitter in my neighborhood back in the day, because I was "so good with the kids". I remember one New Year's Eve, I had 11 kids from 4 families in one house! The parents had all gone to a party together, and decided that the kids could have a sleep-over. And it worked out well, because the older kids helped me with the younger ones, and once we got them to bed, after many games of Hi-Ho Cherri-O! and snacks galore, the older ones stayed up with me to watch the ball drop, and then went to bed themselves. And they were all very well behaved, so I deluded myself into thinking I'd be such a great parent. Wrong! The thing is, parents of kids you babysit have already made some mistakes with them, which you have no clue about. You don't get to find out what those are until you have a couple of your own. It's different when you're the one who's up with a sick child at 1 a.m. three nights in a row. Not to mention the 3 loads of laundry you did at 2 a.m., because that one child was so sick that she threw up mulitple times, each time after you'd changed the bedsheets. Or anxiety you felt the time you sat in the ER waiting for the doctor to come in with your child's x-ray to confirm or deny broken bones. Or going to the school to deal with grade issues/bullying issues/teacher issues. Or trying to explain why one gets to go to a party that the other wasn't invited to. Or trying to console a child who is inconsolable over the loss of a favorite pet, friend, boy/girlfriend, or relative. Or even the every day little things that get overlooked and forgotten the very next day, but were so important at the time. It's just not the same thing for sitters as it is for a parent.
Flynne at November 24, 2009 8:29 AM
And spanking is not acceptable, period.--Patrick
And suddenly this turns from a 30 comment thread into a 90 comment one.--Pseudonym
HA! How very, very true...I thought of just that when I decided to not touch that one with a 10 ft. pole
the other Beth at November 24, 2009 8:33 AM
@ Flynne: "The toughest job you'll ever love...."
the other Beth at November 24, 2009 8:35 AM
@the other Beth: ain't it the truth, though!
Flynne at November 24, 2009 8:37 AM
Eric, if I read correctly, the plane was not turned around. It had not taken off yet. And I think only the mom and 2 year old had to get off the plane.
I'm still not sure if I sympathize with the mom. Did they at least give her a chance to calm him down, or did she refuse to try?
KarenW at November 24, 2009 8:38 AM
"Xerox copy"
Xerox, the company, has fought long and hard to make sure that Xerox remains a proper noun and not a verb (hence the capitalized "X"). To make a photocopy is not to "xerox."
Bayer, BF Goodrich, Thermos, Duncan, and Otis have all lost that fight as aspirin, zipper, thermos, yo-yo, and escalator have all become common nouns.
Coke, Velcro, Kleenex, Johnson and Johnson (Band-Aid), and Google are fighting the genericization of their trademarks.
However, I'm with you on the dislike of "Xerox copy." Also, "irregardless," "PIN Number," "ATM Machine," etc. I also dislike, "VIN Number."
Conan the Grammarian at November 24, 2009 8:55 AM
Oh, and for parents traveling with unruly children, one word: Benadryl.
Conan the Grammarian at November 24, 2009 8:57 AM
@Other Beth: "Traveling alone, from Cleveland OH to Japan, with a stubborn little 2 year old."
Military?
old rpm daddy at November 24, 2009 9:04 AM
did she refuse to try? - KarenW
If I had to guess? This.
Yes, the terrible twos. Went through them with my kid sisters, and my own kids...
what to do? You don't take them inappropriate places unless it's an emergency. Like a plane for 4+ hours or somesuch. Or a fancy resturaunt. Or to Live Free or Die Hard. [4 kids still in diapers, and YELLING at them the whole time.]
It's not JUST the incinvenience to others. Why d'ya think the kid is crying? They do so for many reasons. They don't necessarily like all this adult crap we put them through. Crying is how they convey the depths of that.
Unfortunately, the people who know and understand all this are the least likely to impose on others. The most likely to know if they and the kid can handle it. They are the most likely to retreat to a lavatory with the kid, do what it takes to calm the kid down.
There are going to be cases where the kid cannot be calmed, but if the parent is trying hard, generally everyone forgives them. They know from kids. If the parent isn't doing anything? There's your problem. As to what we do with the self involved, who can't be bothered? Seems like removing them from the plane is the least we can do for them, even though they won't get it...
*at the risk of going Goodwin's? WTF is with the word nazis? Are YOU guys terrible two?
SwissArmyD at November 24, 2009 9:08 AM
Unfortunately, on a plane just prior to take-off, one cannot retreat to the lavatory.
Conan the Grammarian at November 24, 2009 9:10 AM
Being a parent gives you more empathy for other parents, as well as a better understanding of the emotional limitations of a 2 yr old. I can't believe the harsh rhetoric and smug judgments here - or almost any time parenting is discussed. Don't fly? Sometimes, people must fly, and unfortunately, 2 yr olds tantrum. That doesn't make the mother a bad parent.
I would hope the other passengers would respond the way old rpm daddy decribed. That's the kind of people we need to be, folks - that's the essence of true graciousness.
As far as I'm concerned, to be so self-absorbed and/or judgemental because you're childless that you can't bear a crying baby while the mom calms it down is ruder than the crying baby itself. Let he who has never disturbed anyone else cast the first stone.
lovelysoul at November 24, 2009 9:14 AM
Oh Look what I found...
Bill Cosby on "Little Jeffery"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fs0cYJUqJys
Bill at November 24, 2009 9:16 AM
How bitter is the taste of sour grapes?
Have a family, then start lecturing.
BOTU at November 24, 2009 9:26 AM
As far as I'm concerned, to be so self-absorbed and/or judgemental because you're childless that you can't bear a crying baby while the mom calms it down is ruder than the crying baby itself. Let he who has never disturbed anyone else cast the first stone.
We aren't talking about a small child crying and the mother working diligently to quiet it down. We are talking about a little kid screaming at the top of his lungs to the point that people are unable to hear the safety information...and no record is made about what the woman attempted to do. However, if the kid is screaming like that before take off, are you really saying that they should have left the kid on the plane? It is a kindness to remove yourself and your distraction should you be in a public situation. That applies to cell phones, public arguments with your spouse, loud flatulence, or 100 other things that strangers should not be forced to endure by force. That includes trantruming/misbehaving children. Why is creating an expectation of consideration of those around you rude?
-Julie
JulieW at November 24, 2009 9:46 AM
Amy,
Great! Finally, someone speaks up for the rest of us. Like you, we were simply not allowed to act out in public. Movies, restaurants, supermarkets, let alone an airplane.
As a psychologist, I simply followed my parents model. Give kids some rules, enforce them, and give them something to do in public places.
Thanks for speaking up!
Brian Grossman at November 24, 2009 9:52 AM
Bill, thanks for posting that! That's one of my favorite Cosby bits. ^_^
Flynne at November 24, 2009 9:53 AM
It's not. But condemning the mother, when, as you say, there's no record of what she was doing is wrong. She probably was trying to calm him down. It seems to me that the flight attendants could've escorted her to the back, or some other solution could've been found rather than turning the plane back to the gate. But, even if that was necessary, what bothers me is this holier-than-thou self-righteousness. Have a little compassion and humility. I get a little tired of this smugness, like "we're perfect, why can't you be?"
This was a mother trying to travel with an unpredictable 2 yr old. Those of us who are parents get what she was going through, and I bet she wasn't intent on disturbing anyone - any more than the fat person overflowing into the seat next to you is trying to ruin your precious day. They're just trying to get someplace.
lovelysoul at November 24, 2009 9:59 AM
This intolerance of children is disgusting. I would ask you all to query your parents as to your "behaviour" when you were a youngster. If they say you were quiet as a mouse I would suggest that you were beaten into submission. Kids aren't supposed to be quiet. They are kids! Also, remember who will be paying your social security and shut up you bunch of spoiled babies!
Michael Anderson at November 24, 2009 10:08 AM
If Southwest would guarantee for me that they would throw the social muggers off the plane (screaming kids with oblivious parents in front of me, the guy yelling into the cell phone from his seat behind me, the 600 pound behemoth next to me that is taking up half my seat....), I would fly exclusively with them.
Is there any way to measure the number of people like me who avoid travel becuase it has become so unpleasant?
The comments thread underscores the essential question, and it is not about children nor is it about who does/does not have them. It comes down to this: Do you have the right to deprive others of their right to quiet enjoyment of their plane ride/movie/hotel room?
Sassenach at November 24, 2009 10:12 AM
Root was appalled when a flight attendant told her something to the effect of "We just can't tolerate that (screaming) for two hours," reported the Mercury News. Root insisted Adam would be "fine once we take off"
This indicates that she wasn't doing anything to quiet him, just waiting for them to get in the air in the hopes he'd quiet down. Sorry, but your laziness in ATTEMPTING to quiet your brat, doesn't mean I have to tolerate it. If she had at least tried to calm him, I don't think most people would have a problem, but it reads that she didn't do a thing in that regard.
E. Steven Berkimer at November 24, 2009 10:25 AM
Whenever someone says ATM machine I give them the benifet of the doubt and assume they are talking about a hooker or a porn star
lujlp at November 24, 2009 10:31 AM
"remember who will be paying your social security"
Breeder BINGO in Aisle 12!
No, I was not always quiet as a mouse when I was a child, but that would be the reason why my parents did not put me into those types of situations in the first place. Sure, all 2-year-olds are brats. Fine. This has been my observation as well, so I agree with that. So use some common sense when you decide where to take them! SwissArmyD made that point quite well.
Pirate Jo at November 24, 2009 10:41 AM
Do you have the right to deprive others of their right to quiet enjoyment of their plane ride/movie/hotel room?
Not in my book. But then again, not very many people are on the same page, anyway.
o.O
Flynne at November 24, 2009 10:41 AM
There are going to be cases where the kid cannot be calmed, but if the parent is trying hard, generally everyone forgives them.
Parental effort goes a long way. I have a lot more patience for a screaming child when it looks like his/her parent is at least trying. The screaming is only one part of the problem. It's an insult when parents behave like I have to just sit there and suck it up because they decided to have children.
This intolerance of children is disgusting. I would ask you all to query your parents as to your "behaviour" when you were a youngster. If they say you were quiet as a mouse I would suggest that you were beaten into submission. Kids aren't supposed to be quiet. They are kids! Also, remember who will be paying your social security and shut up you bunch of spoiled babies!
I had my unruly moments as a child. That was when my mother swatted my ass and told me to knock it off. I don't expect this woman to have done that to this child in this situation. Even if she normally spanks at home, she would have been vilified as a child abuser if she'd done it on a plane. But when I misbehaved, my parents didn't just throw their hands in their air and bemoan their fate. They parented.
And for the record, nobody will be paying my social security. It won't be there when I turn 62. And even if it is, I would be a fool to depend on that for my livelihood. That's why I save money now. But, by the time I turn 62, I will have spent 48 years paying for the education, health care and nutritional needs of more than my share of children. As a liberal, I don't even mind that much. But I don't see the slim chance that these kids are going to be providing me with my beer money as a reason for me to sit back and take whatever kids and their parents want to try and get away with.
MonicaP at November 24, 2009 10:42 AM
I'm generally a fan of Amy, but sometimes shit happens. For all she knows, the woman was going to grandma's funeral. It's rude to bash on the woman when we have only third-hand accounts and no real knowledge of what was going on. Really, seriously misbehaving kids on planes are pretty rare.
...throw the social muggers off the plane... Is there any way to measure the number of people like me who avoid travel because it has become so unpleasant?
Unpleasantness: I used to fly a lot, including on Southwest. I remember arriving at Dallas Love Field (small, for those who don't know), waving my ticket and carry-on at the ticket desk, walking to the gate and onto the plane. Total elapsed time from parking lot to sitting down in the plane: 20 minutes.
Why do I avoid air travel today? Hint: it ain't the little kids and fat guys...
bradley13 at November 24, 2009 10:45 AM
My father was a road warrior for many years, and when my frequent flier account started to accumulate miles, he shared with me a time-honored tactic for dealing with the rotten kid behind you:
The first time he kicks your seat and/or throws stuff into your row, you turn around and ask him not to do that any more. The second time, you turn around and tell him sternly that he can't keep doing that. The third time, you turn around and say to his mother, "Lady, one of us needs to smack your kid."
I've only exercised Dad's tactic twice, but on both occasions, it worked like magic.
Squid at November 24, 2009 10:50 AM
"spare the rod, spoil the child".
jksisco at November 24, 2009 10:56 AM
"Do you have the right to deprive others of their right to quiet enjoyment of their plane ride/movie/hotel room?"
Do you? Is there not the slightest possibility that you yourself might, through unforseen events, disturb another? A sudden puking sickness on a plane? Loud fart at a movie? Loud sex in the hotel? I rather doubt it. Things happen. I agree an uncontrolled and uncontrollable child should be asked off. I just think to expect no disturbance to your fair little ears in public is absurd. It's Public.
Babysitting is not being a parent. Having siblings is not being a parent. Having parents is not being a parent. I babysat at 12, for 3 kids or more. They almost always acted fine for me, and a time-out worked if thy didn't. But guess what- I could NEVER have raised those kids to productive adulthood. So feel free to give your parenting opinions, just know we take them with a grain of salt. Much like Amy's "trade kid-watching with other parents" idea. Great, until you realize few neighborhoods have more than 1 or 2 SAHP's anymore. It's all just theories, until you're a parent.
momof4 at November 24, 2009 10:58 AM
Except that, if he isn't, it will then be too late for the flight attendant to do anything. The passengers will now be subjected to a screaming child for the duration of the flight.
Yep.
It's not the child toward whom the intolerance is being shown. It's being shown toward the people who invade our personal space without even an acknowledgement that they're doing so (cutting in line, littering, screaming into cell phones, spreading out into the adjoining seats in airplanes or movie theatres, allowing their children to run amok in public places, etc.).
Conan the Grammarian at November 24, 2009 11:18 AM
But, even if that was necessary, what bothers me is this holier-than-thou self-righteousness. Have a little compassion and humility. I get a little tired of this smugness, like "we're perfect, why can't you be?"
I am far from perfect, but when I screw up, I apologize and attempt to move on. This woman brought a screaming toddler onto an airplane, and then when safety information couldn't be heard and she was kicked off, she screamed and yelled about how she was wronged. The issue here is that if SW left the kid on board, he would have ruined the travel for everyone else. Why is it better to ruin 100 other people's day?
Those of us who are parents get what she was going through, and I bet she wasn't intent on disturbing anyone - any more than the fat person overflowing into the seat next to you is trying to ruin your precious day.
But in both cases the rest of us should just 'suck it up' for the sake of that one person, right? We aren't talking about a kid making noise, asking for juice, moving around...we are talking about a kid screaming so loud that no one can hear a person with a microphone.
For all she knows, the woman was going to grandma's funeral.
So, because this woman might potentially have been doing something sad, we are supposed to give her dispensation for her and her child's bad behavior?
This isn't about how much kids suck, or whether mommy had a sad or important task to do. This is about someone attempting to force feed this child's screaming to everyone trapped on the plane. If I were being a jackass on the plane, I would be expected to be kicked off. The only difference is that I run the risk of a marshal arresting me for being a jackass...this woman got paid to do so.
-Julie
JulieW at November 24, 2009 11:18 AM
"Kids aren't supposed to be quiet. They are kids!"
Most of them are being raised to survive to adulthood, which means they have to be taught everything, including when it's time to be quiet.
Pricklypear at November 24, 2009 11:20 AM
"Root was appalled when a flight attendant told her something to the effect of "We just can't tolerate that (screaming) for two hours," reported the Mercury News. Root insisted Adam would be "fine once we take off"
2 yr olds don't generally scream for 2 straight hrs. The flt attendant was being ridiculous assuming that the child would cry for the entire flt. Very young children are usually successfully distracted or fall asleep. She was just saying, as I surely would, that he will calm down. And this doesn't prove that she wasn't, at the same time, trying to calm him down and distract him.
You all expect too much. She's supposed to be calming her child, while also apologizing to you, while also dealing with the flt attendent? How would you propose she accomplish all this to YOUR delicate satisfaction? The poor mother had her hands full.
lovelysoul at November 24, 2009 11:36 AM
Ahh, I agree with LovelySoul.
If you don't want to be around crying two-year-olds, then, first, stop your own whining, pay the money and fly first class. I find first class pleasant in nearly every regard.
An airline is a public conveyance, after all. The admittedly overstuffed economy class is where a mother and two-year-old belong. The mother was taking her child to see Dad. This is the stuff of life.
You whiners have options other than beating up on people engaging in the noble pursuit of raising a family. Private airplanes can be leased, first class beckons.
Brogdin Buttlesworth at November 24, 2009 11:45 AM
I, for one, am in favour of spanking. The inconsiderate parents, that is.
Paddie at November 24, 2009 11:49 AM
"Most of them are being raised to survive to adulthood, which means they have to be taught everything, including when it's time to be quiet."
Even a 2 yr old? They are not developmentally ready to behave like stepford kids, even if that were preferable.
This is what bugs me. I realize anonymity leads to certain exaggerations, but, too often, the story here seems to be: if you have children, they've always been perfectly behaved and never disturbed others because you are an ideal parent, or *IF* you had children, yours would certainly be perfectly behaved because you would be an ideal parent (as opposed to the lesser, mere mortal parents you see and condemn all around you). Even your 2 yr old would be tantrum-free because of your stellar parenting and disciplinary methods.
Lots of books have been written about 2 yr olds, and there's a not child psychologist anywhere that would dare claim such utter nonsense. Yet, we are supposed let it ride here, even those of who are parents and know it's nonsense.
lovelysoul at November 24, 2009 11:52 AM
She should have been warned, Amy, because kicking someone off of a plane is pretty extreme. Plane tickets are very expensive. If you're going to do something that drastic, a "I'm sorry ma'am, but you're going to have to calm your kid down or we are going to have to ask you to disembark" would not be out of line.
She should have been warned, because she would have had less of a case for demanding an apology... WHICH SHE GOT. Obviously the airline thought they should give her one.
NicoleK at November 24, 2009 11:53 AM
Obviously the airline thought they should give her one.
More likely, the airline's PR department thought they should give her one.
MonicaP at November 24, 2009 12:00 PM
If you ask, you can often get a free voucher just for getting bumped from a flt, much less being kicked off the plane. It was just good business for Southwest.
lovelysoul at November 24, 2009 12:03 PM
They don't generally scream incessantly and drown out public service announcements either. The child was already an outlier.
From the reports, it would seem she wasn't doing any of those things. Just doing one of them would have probably calmed the hostile crowd.
Airline travel is already stressful enough. The airlines have turned air liners into a prison buses. Dealing with security procedures, putting up with the other passengers (who take up too many overhead bins, leave their chewed gum in the seat pocket, slam their seats back as if they're in a quick draw contest [or actually trying to break your nose], etc.), and the other joys of flying these days would tax even Job's patience.
That kid picked the wrong time and place to act up. And mom should have sensed that.
Conan the Grammarian at November 24, 2009 12:07 PM
Why does a mother with a two-year-old "belong" in "the admittedly overstuffed economy class," i-hole? You got something against mothers traveling with their kids being comfortable?
Conan the Grammarian at November 24, 2009 12:11 PM
I think we're underestimating the irritation power of the sound of a child's crying. Hearing that high-pitched, repetitive wailing for more than a few minutes makes me want to go all "Hulk!Smash," and I have quite a bit of self control. Do we really want to subject several hundred people in a confined space for two hours, with no way off and no relief, to that kind of irritation? Maybe the kid wouldn't have cried for two hours. Maybe he would have. Maybe he would have cried on and off the whole time.
That's why the mother's reaction is so important here. It can make an intolerable situation tolerable.
MonicaP at November 24, 2009 12:14 PM
Love the redundancy discussion ... may have missed s/o else catching this as I have to skim today; as a Francophile, Amy may appreciate this -the fast food commercials about sandwiches "with au jus" (translates as "with with juice."). I do get why it's necessary for English-speaking audiences though, who would not understand "with jus."
Mr. Teflon at November 24, 2009 12:17 PM
The crux of the matter is whether we look at this as an isolated incident or one of many. If we look at it in isolation, sure we don't know what the mom was trying, and sure we might just forgive and forget.
But that isn't really what we are talking about momof4 or LS, is it? We are talking about a class of people who place thier own needs ahead of everyone else, without thought, every time.
Road warriors especially have stories about the kid that kicks tha back of their seat for 4 hours, while the mom refuses to see the problem. Or the guy who watches pr0n on his laptop without headphones. [serious. WTF? for the WHOLE DAMN FLIGHT] Or the lady who dropped her 50# of bowlingballs or whatever in her carryone onto my head, while simultaneously talking on her cellphone at the gate. And complaining how long it was taking to get off the plane. Not only did she not say sorry, she din't even look to see who she had hit.
Yeah, they are people who behave badly. Certainly we could make up some kind of story for what kind of day they were having, that caused that behavior. Why should we rationalize it? For just one person it might not matter, but this is a trend, and the only way to stop it is to show what is right and what is wrong.
I have kids momof4, and I have flown many times with them, even at 2. But I wouldn't have done so without the feeling that they would do well with it. They travel in the car fine, and never complained. #1 son was already makin' with the legos at 2. we read him books, and so on.
If you've got a kid that can't stand their car seat, and throws temper tantrums in the store all the time, a parent needs to figure that out. The kid is obviously not old enough to deal with going out in that way. The parent has to make adjustments. Has to trade of going to the store with the other parent. Who knows, maybe the tradeoff would help the person who has to put up with the screaming all day. Most certainly in a store this is an issue... on a plane for 4 hours? It's a PROBLEM.
Ask yourself why are you taking a 2yr old to a funeral? There is the narrow reason that there is no-one in your town that is family to take care of them, sure. Any other reason? If the other parent isn't going, they should stay home. If the other parent IS going, why isn't there tag team parenting going on? If you have to fly NY to LA to go to the funeral, maybe one parent SHOULD stay home with the kid, in any case.
These are lots of decisions that have to be made at the individual level, for one person. But that person has to decide based not only on their own personal need, but on how it effects others. If you are moving back to the US from Singapore, yeah, you're going to have to bring the kid, there are few other travel options. For this I recommend benadryl, and a DVD player. But if you are Flying a 2yr old out to see aunt May, who lives 6hrs away by car... you might want to consider that it'll probably take you 4hrs to fly there, by the time you do security and such.
In your own vehicle, you are in control. It is your own space. Since you are not buying 2 tickets it may be chepaer to drive. You can take more stuff with you, and when you get there you have a car with you. Do those extra 2 hours actually tip the balance of inconvenience? DVD player for the kid, their own car-seat. No baggage claim...
There are many times when deciding matters of our inconvenience that it is not that much more inconvenient to actually take other's needs into account. They will never know, or thank you for NOT doing something. You may be reminded, though, the next time you are on a business trip from hades, or sitting in a movie, with somebody elses screaming kid... there are reasons that you do as you do. One of them is the care of people you don't know.
SwissArmyD at November 24, 2009 12:25 PM
The smug ignorance of the comments in this thread is staggering. Two year-olds are unpredictable because they are not developmentally capable of being trained to be quiet on demand. People need to travel, even families. Are you really so brittle that listening to a baby cry for two hours leads you to anger? My goodness. How delicate we've become. This whining is the province of barren cougars.
Lasorda at November 24, 2009 12:27 PM
"That's why the mother's reaction is so important here. It can make an intolerable situation tolerable."
It doesn't sound like she had too much time to react. I'm sure she was trying to calm him. Mothers have ears too. The sound of your own child shrieking is even worse than someone else's. And she probably wasn't expecting to escorted off the plane, so I doubt she had much time to offer apologies, which she could've done after getting him quiet, which was her first priority.
This could've happened after they were in air. Should they strap her and the child in a parachute?
I think the airline needs to do more for passenger comfort in a whole lot of areas, including this one. They know they have small children flying, yet they don't seem to care where these children are seated, or have any area a mother with a crying child could retreat to.
If they're going to be kicking parents off planes for this, there should at least be some notice or sign at the gate. Maybe there's a little muzzle we could buy before boarding.
lovelysoul at November 24, 2009 12:35 PM
Are you really so brittle that listening to a baby cry for two hours leads you to anger?
Are you so slow to not understand that the rights of your children end where my discomfort begins? If that weren't the case, I could go over and shut your kid up myself, couldn't I?
This whining is the province of barren cougars.
Wow..so in your view I am a very attractive middle aged woman without children who gets to have sex with a bunch of young studs with no negative consequence?
WOOOHOOOO!!!!!
I'M A BARREN COUGAR!
I'M A BARREN COUGAR!
I'M A BARREN COUGAR!
I'M A BARREN COUGAR!
-Julie
JulieW at November 24, 2009 12:40 PM
My sister flies with her kids and she's only had one episode with my niece not quieting down (although, she was about 9mo at the time) and she was visiting us for the holidays.
Ever since then, my sister keeps some Benadryl in her purse for such occasions (she's never had to use it, but she always comes prepared). She said she felt horrible about the whole episode but her efforts to calm my niece did not go unnoticed and the passengers were all forgiving - probably because she spent most of the flight trying to sooth the little one.
It would seem to me that considering the response my sister got from other passengers and what happened to this lady tells me she probably didn't do much to mitigate her child's loud behavior.
If the parent is acting in a responsible manner, and the baby/toddler is still crying - well, shit happens. If they aren't acting responsibly, that's where I start seeing red.
Feebie at November 24, 2009 12:42 PM
I think the airline needs to do more for passenger comfort in a whole lot of areas, including this one. They know they have small children flying, yet they don't seem to care where these children are seated, or have any area a mother with a crying child could retreat to.
Okay, what about required seating for children under five (and at least one parent) in the 'crying room' section of the airplane. They can serve you chicken nuggets and french fries in the sound proofed area, much like the 'cry room' in church.
Sound like a plan?
The only thing wrong with this plan is that in a time of economic decline I don't see anyone working on a new 'child friendly' airline.
-Julie
JulieW at November 24, 2009 12:48 PM
Hmm, I spent $1,000 of my own money to get my tubes tied when I was 34. I am now 39 and dating a guy who is 33. Do I get to call myself a barren cougar? I like the sound of it!
When I hear bratty kids making a racket in public, I just remind myself that at least I don't have to put up with that crap when I get back to my peaceful, quiet home. The parents of these little darlings, on the other hand, will have to keep listening to it. That usually makes me smile.
Pirate Jo at November 24, 2009 12:49 PM
Since this has turned into such a popular discussion, detailed article about the incident. The short summary:
- She was experienced at travelling with her kid. She had a plan, but things just went wrong. The kid is two, shit happens.
- The crew exercised their judgement that things were out of control, which is their right and indeed their responsibility.
- Southwest did publicity "damage control" by refunding her flight ticket and giving her a travel voucher on top of it.
There is really no story here, except for people who really want to get all offended.
bradley13 at November 24, 2009 12:51 PM
No the whinning ois the provence of mindles breederes who care more for how their mini me fashion accessory maskes their freinds jelous than acctually doing the job they agreed to do when they refused to abort their little monsters
Is a kid going to make noise? Yes, but screaming at the top of their lungs so loundy and for son long that people could not hear a announcment being broadcast over speakers?
And then on top of that the mothers plan to make the kid stp was to wait until he decided he was finninshed.
Thats the reason they were booted - not the noise but the mothers refuseal to even ATEMPT to stop it
lujlp at November 24, 2009 1:02 PM
Are you really so brittle that listening to a baby cry for two hours leads you to anger?
Listening to a baby cry for two hours would lead anyone with two working ears to anger. It's a noise pollution thing.
And you say "barren cougar" like it's a bad thing.
MonicaP at November 24, 2009 1:10 PM
I'm not brittle, but having to listen to a child shriek for even a moment is enough to send me over the edge.
I've been known to say "shut that kid up" more than once when I'm in a restaurant. I didn't go out to hear your kid scream, I went out to eat dinner. If I wanted to hear your kid scream, I'd let you know.
If you cannot control your offspring, then LEAVE IT THE FUCK HOME.
brian at November 24, 2009 1:16 PM
At a friend's apartment, typing away on his computer.
This I want to say first. Suggesting that "not-a-dad Patrick" can't be an authority when it comes to kids is wrong. As Amy says, reproducing does not make you an authority. We have know people who have children and shouldn't have.
Moreover, are you prepared to have me apply the same standard during Amy's inevitable future installment on gay rights appears? Do I now start dismissing your opinions on the subject with the same contempt? After all, the attorney representing the anti-gay marriage sect in California has candidly admitted he doesn't know how gay marriage could possibly adversely affect straight marriage. So, do I now conclude that it's none of your business and your opinions don't matter?
And by the way, the "kids act differently around an uncle" doesn't wash. Especially since my strategy was adopted by two of my sisters, with results just like I got.
And no, I didn't make my family into superparents. Some of my siblings are...not so good. My sister used to smack her two-year-old on the mouth when he talked back. It was basically a tap. She didn't split his lips or even leave marks, but I'd cringe every time I saw it.
Patrick at November 24, 2009 1:22 PM
Had to go away for a while. I wondered if someone would question that a two year old could be taught, and I see it didn't take long.
It might be too early for a two-year-old to learn the lesson, but it isn't too early to start teaching it. Those little blank slates start picking thing up before you know it.
If your two-year old was hitting his baby sister, and you tried to distract him by giving him a toy or a cookie, you'd better believe he picked up on that immediately: Hit the baby, get a reward.
Other options would once have included a sharo slap on the paw just before a good scolding, but since god forbid you do that anymore that pretty much leaves the time-out option.
Since there's no place on an airplane for time out (at least no socially acceptable place) and the plane had not departed, the crew did the right thing by removing the problem, and should not have apologized for putting the needs of the whole planeload ahead of the needs of the one.
Pricklypear at November 24, 2009 1:31 PM
Her plan was to feed the kid after take-off and get him to take a nap.
On the rebooked flight, she fed the kid before take-off and he was fine.
It sounds like her original plan was flawed.
Conan the Grammarian at November 24, 2009 1:38 PM
Ok, just read the extended article. Sounds to me like they sat at the gate for awhile and the kid bugged everyone on board. I agree with the FA, I'll bet they have heard, "Oh, he will quiet down in a little while. Trust me." Yeah, right! As a mother, obviously given my name here, I know how it can be when your child acts up, but I also know plenty of other mothers who will tolerate insane amounts of noise and abuse from their little ones without batting an eye. This kid was clearly off the charts bad. I have a friend that I cannot have even a five minute conversation with if her son is present. He jumps around, screams, yells, butt's into the conversation and is in general a little terror. She takes it all. So, it would not surprise me to find out that this woman could sit there and listen to the kid's crap and not bat an eyelash.
Something else doesn't make sense to me. Why did she need to buy him a pack and play to sleep in? Where was he sleeping while he was at her mother's house. For that matter, when my child was two she was sleeping in a bed. Sounds like someone who is out to make a little something on this deal if you ask me. Not a surprise really when you think about the situation as a whole.
sheepmommy at November 24, 2009 2:15 PM
"It doesn't sound like she had too much time to react. I'm sure she was trying to calm him. Mothers have ears too."
Bushwah!
Just this very day, I was forced to sit three feet from a shrieking, screaming, flailing infant in a stroller, as its mother sat there looking around in bovine style, glancing only occasionally at the squalling sprat as it did its best to shatter every window within fifty yards.
Parents become either deaf or retarded, and possibly both. If more of them even made cursory attempts to be considerate of those around them, people wouldn't have to get so pissy.
Kikki at November 24, 2009 2:17 PM
Her plan was to feed the kid after take-off and get him to take a nap.
More specifically her plan appeared to be to let the kid scream until takeoff, feed him and then get him to take a nap. The smartest woman I ever met on a plane was when I was taking a red eye back from Boston in the middle of the night. The little one was asleep in the terminal when she got there with him all strapped into the car seat (only possible with infants, I know). We all very quietly boarded the plane, and since it was a small one we were able to rather quietly have the pre-flight information session and take off. He stayed asleep until we landed.
I understand that not all situations can work out as ideally as this one did. However, as many people have pointed out, the key is knowing your child and being willing to remove him/her when their behavior becomes disruptive to others. When you are going to be trapped, the task becomes that much more difficult, but you need to have some 'big guns' to pull out when this go wacky (I will give you some candy if you stop crying).
-Julie
JulieW at November 24, 2009 2:17 PM
If we as are capable of teaching 2 moth old dogs the meaning of the word "no" why are so many parents incapable of teaching it to their children?
lujlp at November 24, 2009 2:25 PM
"...but you need to have some 'big guns' to pull out when this go wacky..."
I found boobs helped. :)
I took my son on a plane starting when he was about 3 weeks old, and if he started to cry, I'd stick a boob in his mouth. No problem. Thank goodness for nursing shirts.
lovelysoul at November 24, 2009 2:32 PM
Re:I would ask you all to query your parents as to your "behaviour" when you were a youngster.
I dont' have to. My parents never took us kids any place before we were old enough to behave. That included nice restaurants, movies and plays as well as public aircraft. They were firm believers in the saying "children should be seen and not heard".
Too bad so many parents think that their children are the centers of the universe and that everyone else should either be inconvenienced/annoyed by them or move out of the way.
Jayne Mazz at November 24, 2009 2:32 PM
"If we as are capable of teaching 2 moth old dogs the meaning of the word "no" why are so many parents incapable of teaching it to their children?"
Dogs want to please us. Children are more like cats.
Seriously, many kids are born with an inherent rebellious streak. They understand what "no" means, they just don't necessarily want to respond accordingly, especially at age 2.
The thing we parents know, that many non-parents don't, is that you can get very different children from the same "batch". Some parents are lucky and get two or three very compliant, pleasant children, but most often, you'll get one of those and one of the other kind...or, God help you, two or three.
You may believe you'll have perfect children, but the luck of the draw in the personality lottery plays a big part.
I have one of each - an angel girl and a rebellious boy. Same DNA. Same home. Same discipline methods. They're just very different personalities. She always made me look like a perfect parent, and he sometimes made me look like a horrible parent.
That's why I'm never too quick to blame the parent. Often, they just have a high-strung, temperamental kid, through no fault of their own.
lovelysoul at November 24, 2009 2:46 PM
"But all jets are planes."
You live a sheltered life.
And, like "bank account", "jet plane" is simply a colloquialism with its syllables detached.
Radwaste at November 24, 2009 3:04 PM
Read the article, anyone catc the last line where the mother told the boy to behave or else they'd be punished agian?
One wonders why she didnt try such an approch the first time
lujlp at November 24, 2009 3:24 PM
@ rpm daddy: Yes, Marine Corps; that was when I was stationed in Oki
I agree that there are certain public places where young kids don't belong--nice restaurants, many movies, etc. and I try to be sensitive to that when I make the decision to take my kids or make other arrangements. When I'm out, sans children, at an "adult" place, I don't enjoy hearing fussy children any more than the next person.
Travel isn't necessarily that simple though; driving by car isn't always an option. But in public travel settings, parents need to pull out every trick in the bag to minimize the disturbance for everyone else; it helps to be humble and apologetic too.
I have heard the Benadryl trick too, for air travel; but it didn't work for me...
the other Beth at November 24, 2009 3:24 PM
Just another example of how bad parenting has become the norm, based on how many people here are siding with this mother. A 2 year old can easily be reined in, had 3 of them myself and would never put up with this crap in public, same as screaming in the yard. Just because kids can make noise doesn't mean they should be allowed to everywhere .... time and place for everything. And btw, I never took my kids to a restaurant before they were 4, waste of money and not fair to the folks who have to clean up the mess
ron at November 24, 2009 3:34 PM
Because apparently the airline knows more about the effective administration of discipline than the mother does.
Conan the Grammarian at November 24, 2009 3:37 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/11/24/screamers_on_a.html#comment-1678852">comment from Jayne MazzMy parents never took us kids any place before we were old enough to behave
This is how I was raised.
If you read my book, read how Hillary Johnson dealt with having a spirited kid.
Amy Alkon at November 24, 2009 3:45 PM
I love all these tough-talking unmarried marriage counselors opining how they would not tolerate that behavior. I was like that, when I was younger and hadn't raised kids myself.
About ten years ago, I was in an eatery, reading my magazine and having a quick bite. A screaming kid was melting down, ruining it, but ah well...I could survive.
Then the mother smacked the two or three year old hard across the mouth, screaming at it to shut up. She did it again.
I told her to stop hitting that child, and I would have made her if she hadn't. She did not get mad, or bark back. She broke down crying, and sobbed that it was just so damn hard, and she didn't know what to do anymore.
Of course, the woman was raising the kid alone, was broke, and scared to death. She was near breaking apart herself, let alone parenting a kid.
For some reason, that incident comes to mind when I read all these people talking about how that kid needs to be sorted out and taught some sort of lesson.
Spartee at November 24, 2009 4:56 PM
Wow! You guys really are a bunch of barren cougars! Let's talk when you're 65. You can tell me about all the hot guys you're dating. Then you can tell me your Thanksgiving plans.
Lasorda at November 24, 2009 5:06 PM
There is a big difference between a fussy, crying child and the devil shreiking and hollering at the top of his/her lungs. I CANNOT stand to be around a howling, shreiking wild thing. Please do not subject me or anyone else to your precious darling's tantrums!
anonymiss at November 24, 2009 5:10 PM
Amy, are you civilizing advocate, or a racist?
Sorry, one of the commenters on the LAT site asked that...and I fell out of my chair laughing.
Choika at November 24, 2009 5:15 PM
Barren cougars? I'm childless by choice. If I need a kid fix, there are plenty out there for me to dote on. I have plenty of Thanksgiving invitations. It's nice to have a choice.
Lasorda, you must be a tired old bag at age 65. Suit yourself.
Anonymiss at November 24, 2009 5:31 PM
"Do I now start dismissing your opinions on the subject with the same contempt? "
You already do. Tis cool, there are people we are just diametrically opposed to in this world. I spank, too. Spanked them yesterday after we had to leave the shoe store sans shoes because of their behavior. They behaved at the shoe store today, and now we have shoes.
momof4 at November 24, 2009 5:34 PM
"Amy, are you civilizing advocate, or a racist?"
Yeah, that one took me for a loop. You know that you're winning the argument when they bring that one up.
My other favorite was the recent post insisting that the "rest of us" who want civilized travel (with or without well behaved kids) should fly charter. Does the idjit realize that the same goes for those of us who don't want to deal with the poorly chaperoned high school travel group, the drunk who keeps hitting on your or a nearby passenger (especially when he's doing it in the aisle and she's in the window seat). How about that guy who keeps telling you his suicidally depressing (your suicide not his) life story when you're trying to sleep? Do we really have to pay extra for jerk free seating? And you know it won't last since they, not the rest of us, will be entitled to the perks of sitting among a captive audience. That's they're whole point of existing.
Bill at November 24, 2009 5:37 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/11/24/screamers_on_a.html#comment-1678864">comment from LasordaWow! You guys really are a bunch of barren cougars! Let's talk when you're 65. You can tell me about all the hot guys you're dating. Then you can tell me your Thanksgiving plans.
I'm 45 and my boyfriend's 58, and we're going to my neighbors because I love them and their two smart, loving, well-behaved kids.
My boyfriend wanted to take me out for a romantic dinner on Thanksgiving, but I told him I'd really miss spending it with my neighbors.
Next assumption?
Amy Alkon at November 24, 2009 5:50 PM
I did a horrible thing once to get a kid to stop kicking. I'd asked him several times to stop. Finally, I was fed up.
I leaned forward, and then slammed back as hard as I could. The mother gasped, horrified. But her kid stopped kicking me.
NicoleK at November 24, 2009 6:07 PM
One thing though, about the kicking. It is physically uncomfortable to sit with one's legs dangling. I say this as a short person whose legs sometimes don't touch the floor, depending on the chair. To sit like that for a long time hurts my lower back, a lot.
They should let parents bring little footstools so the kids legs don't dangle.
NicoleK at November 24, 2009 6:09 PM
I think that almost all childless people (myself included) can understand when a small child is screaming out in pain because there ears start hurting and excuse cries for "I want daddy" on planes and we do tolerate that, especially if we see the parents doing things to soothe the child. But it seems the kid mentioned above was making a ruckus because he also screamed Go!Plane!Go! and the mom didn't make it easier.
I've traveled to India several times: as a small child myself and with other small children, and while I can't really speak for myself because I don't remember, my cousins, who were 6 month old, 1 year and 4 years old when I traveled with them too and from India, and their parents managed to keep them generally behaved, even managing to quiet the 1 year old after his ears started popping.
Moreover, it doesn't matter if someone has or doesn't have children. Insulting someone makes them less sympathetic to your plight of being a parent.
Asha Mathew at November 24, 2009 6:52 PM
According to the dictionary, "jet plane" is redundant. There is no definition of "jet" that indicates that it can refer to a "jet boat" or anything else other than a plane or a jet engine.
jet
1 /dʒɛt/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [jet] Show IPA noun, verb, jet⋅ted, jet⋅ting, adjective
Use jet in a Sentence
See web results for jet
See images of jet
–noun
1. a stream of a liquid, gas, or small solid particles forcefully shooting forth from a nozzle, orifice, etc.
2. something that issues in such a stream, as water or gas.
3. a spout or nozzle for emitting liquid or gas: a gas jet.
4. jet plane.
5. jet engine.
Patrick at November 24, 2009 7:28 PM
Yes, Amy. But you WILL be 65--one day. And your "boyfriend" will be 78. And won't that be fun? You will be out on your Thanksgiving "date," and all of us breeders will be surrounded by our children and spouses, enjoying the sound of crying babies. In twenty years, will your neighbors' children remember you? I'm not assuming anything. I'm weeping for your shallow, atomistic view of parents and their children. Have fun on your date. I hope the kids don't cry.
Lasorda at November 24, 2009 7:51 PM
one thing that I'd point out to those who say "you who don't have children, don't know what it's like..." [leaving aside the bunch of us that DO have children]
listen to what the audience is saying! They can only react to you and what your kid does. From their perspective it DOESN'T MATTER how hard it is to have a kid. You are imposing on them.
It is certainly easier with a little understanding, but do you know what the limit to that is? Don't act like I should tolerate your kid, just because you can. THAT is the ultimate in entitlement. "I have a kid, therefore you have to put up with it."
Do you really think that SWA put this lady off the plane 'just 'cuz? What is more probable, that they were being hardnosed or that a limit was reached?
And, how much more forgiving is everyone when a parent appologizes?
THAT is the difference. People are very forgiving when you ask for it. Heck I've kept kids entertained by playing hide and seek and such with them in the seats. But, the attitude of the parent was key. "You have to live with it", is an attitude that makes me say, 'no I don't'. Saying "I'm sorry this didn't work out well, and I'll try to keep him quieter..."
...many people are likely to reply with understaniding, and may even try to help.
Amy, Gregg is 58? Heh, well perhaps there is hope for me yet. :evilgrin:
SwissArmyD at November 24, 2009 8:09 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/11/24/screamers_on_a.html#comment-1678874">comment from LasordaYes, Amy. But you WILL be 65--one day. And your "boyfriend" will be 78. And won't that be fun? You will be out on your Thanksgiving "date," and all of us breeders will be surrounded by our children and spouses, enjoying the sound of crying babies. In twenty years, will your neighbors' children remember you? I'm not assuming anything. I'm weeping for your shallow, atomistic view of parents and their children. Have fun on your date. I hope the kids don't cry.
Boy, are you ever determined that I'll have a miserable life. This is the life I've chosen, and I'm very happy with it. Family are people you treat like family. I've been talking about rudeness in a lot of interviews, holiday rudeness, the kind hammered on people by family members. Because somebody shares your DNA doesn't mean they're going to treat you well.
On the other hand, I also e-mailed a response to an old elementary school friend of my late friend Cathy Seipp, to whom my book is in memory. After her wrote me about her, I told him about "Team Cathy," about 15 of us who saw, in her last year, that she was never alone.
I wrote the telemarketing chapter at her house, and parts of many other chapters, and the proposal when I used to be there on Thursday from 10:30 am to 9 pm, before another friend came home and made her dinner and stayed with her at night. I wasn't sleeping with Cathy (although Luke Ford did make lesbo jokes about us). I hadn't even known her for very long -- just since the 90s. I was there because I cared about her and wanted to do whatever I could to ease her suffering.
And something tells me Sergeant Heather's son, an autistic savant who met me at his fourth birthday party, and instantly decided I was one of his favorite people ever...and to whom I mail letters from the elephants and the cheetahs, and who invited me as the only non family member at his fifth birthday dinner, will be in my life a long time, same as Ollie in New York and the rest of the kids whose names you'll see in the back of my book. I care about these kids deeply, and show it.
You have such a small, mean little view of the world and family and I wonder how thinking so small affects your relationships.
PS Sergeant Heather is a brilliant parent in so many ways, and I detail just one of them in my book, in how she publicly deals with her son's autism so other people aren't bothered.
Amy Alkon at November 24, 2009 8:34 PM
Is it possible two nearly identical events happened, both in Texas? I ask, because the original news item on what seems to be this case involved only an interview of the mother; I think the airline refused to comment so they got what they deserved, I guess.
Anyway, mother's view was the kid wasn't that bad, just kept repeating, "Plane go bye-bye" (which frankly is more what I would expect a two year old to say than "go, plane, go".) And, she did not admit the horrid screaming.
And, the stewardess did offer her Benadryl. Now, several of you say that is what one should do? Does your doctor recommend sedating little babies with Benadryl? I am not sure sedating little babies is a real good idea. Humans respond differently to medications, even certified ones. And, Benadryl for shutting up a kid seems to exceed the intent of the stuff.
For example, one whole Dramamine in the days when I still flew would put me to sleep all the way from Mexico City to Chicago. What would two do?
So, what if a standard dose of Benadryl, whatever that standard dose is for a given kid, kills the kid? Will that make all you crybabies feel better that it was quiet back there?
Whiskey works, too. And, beer. Why not tequila?
That original news item sort of went sort of viral at the time, if this is the same event. So, naturally the airline had to apologize. That version, most certainly biased towards the mother's viewpoint. made them look really bad and they had chosen not to comment, as I remember it. So, many of your comments on that apology and free voucher as sincerely as you meant them, (assuming this is the same case) ended up being way off the wall, because you didn't know the original coverage or how it put the airline on the defensive.
This version, based on your summary, made the mother look bad. Which is right?
My tendency would be to say the flight crew is probably right, but that is dumb, as well. There have been plenty of horror stories coming out of flight crews in the last 8 years.
Does anyone else remember when Delta let a couple planes full of people park on the tarmac, because it had been storming, Delta policy was the planes were not to leave the gates until a place to land was open, and the gates were filled. It was like 5 or 7 hours, the restrooms were over-filled, diabetics were on the verge of collapse, and the flight crew idiots said anyone who got off the plane was going to be arrested. I think finally the pilot of one of the planes called the CEO on his cell phone. Yeah, flight crews are always right, you betcha. Just like cops never lie on a case.
I worked for an avionics company for over 30 years. I commented way back in 1968 that air travel is a passing fad. If we had started high speed rail system in 1968, with as much money as we spend cobbing up the air travel disaster, we'd have a good rail system today. The rule from the steam engine days of 100 mile shifts would have to go.
A cloud goes over the sun, sarcasm intended, the plane can't fly. A freezing rain and you die. A bird gets in the road and you crash, if you are very lucky, you survive. An updraft and everyone dies. Swell.
And, as someone else pointed out the ratio of flying to driving isn't as good as they want you to believe. Sometimes you have to fly because there isn't enough time to drive, even if the difference isn't large, that was why I had to fly.
But, when I used to fly (the day I retired I said I will never fly again; if someone dies, they delay the funeral or bury without my presence; if I win the Nobel prize, my daughter can go get the loot) I only flew around 100,000 miles or so total.
I used to keep track of the ratio. Most of the time, I could have driven it in 4 to 5 times the total elapsed time from house to house, sometimes 3. Once, from Florida to the Midwest, I made a record, a 7. I got into Chicago, ran to the gate of the local flight, and caught the plane that had been delayed for hours just as they were closing the gate. Five hours instead of eight or ten and it would have taken probably 35 hours to drive, if drivers could take turns.
You wonderful experienced parents, does anyone understand the disaster of being prepared for a short, fast trip, with diapers if needed, food, for a few hours, and suddenly you are stranded at an airport, with no access to any of that stuff? Yeah, you can get them, but only at great expense.
I, unlike you smart people, do not know the answer, except the one I made the day I retired, which is to avoid air travel, with all its risks, and people who fall apart at the slightest inconvenience or unpleasant sound, and insane flight crews with Federal police powers.
irlandes at November 24, 2009 8:53 PM
[i]Yes, Amy. But you WILL be 65--one day. And your "boyfriend" will be 78. And won't that be fun? You will be out on your Thanksgiving "date," and all of us breeders will be surrounded by our children and spouses, enjoying the sound of crying babies. In twenty years, will your neighbors' children remember you? I'm not assuming anything. I'm weeping for your shallow, atomistic view of parents and their children. Have fun on your date. I hope the kids don't cry.[/i]
Just because someone wants children to be well behaved when they are in public or in the presences of others doesn't mean they have an atomistic view of parents and their children. And you might be surprised to find out that people that choose not to have children are actually happy with that decision until the day they die. My mother's aunt never regretted never having kids, and she was well thought of and loved. Just because you had children, doesn't make you superior to those that didn't. I think you need to confront your own views on others who aren't breeders.
Asha Mathew at November 24, 2009 8:53 PM
I'm not the one who wrote a smug, nasty little column about two year-olds who cry. You did. I'm trying to raise a bunch of children--and it is very difficult. Especially when they are two. You choose to snipe from the sidelines. Obviously I touched a nerve. I don't care that you never had children, Amy. But don't pretend to know what parents are going through. You have no idea.
Lasorda at November 24, 2009 10:33 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/11/24/screamers_on_a.html#comment-1678882">comment from LasordaI'm not the one who wrote a smug, nasty little column about two year-olds who cry. You did. I'm trying to raise a bunch of children--and it is very difficult. Especially when they are two. You choose to snipe from the sidelines. Obviously I touched a nerve. I don't care that you never had children, Amy. But don't pretend to know what parents are going through. You have no idea.
How would you know?
Amy Alkon at November 24, 2009 10:43 PM
Because I used to be childless. Now, I'm not.
Lasorda at November 24, 2009 10:49 PM
The most selfish person referenced here is the author. You have access to guaranteed peace and quiet at 30,000 feet. It's called a Gulfstream G550. I hope that each of you can afford a $40 Million plane. I travel with my kids out of LAX all the time. I so hope I find my family sitting next to you on a plane some day. And when I do, if you so much as look at my 2 year old girl or 4 year old boy I'm going to encourage them to scream directly in your face that you're a creepy, ugly molester which, in your own self possessed way, you are. Happy Thanksgiving - I now know that I'm thankful I don't know anyone that's such a shallow bitch like Amy Elk-Horn.
Freddy at November 24, 2009 11:13 PM
For all of you dropping nasty little anonymous notes to Amy: My mother has grown children. We were very high-energy when we were little. She took us on planes. And she was as horrified by this story as Amy. Yes, kids cry, and adults must tolerate that, but my mother always, ALWAYS had food, toys, books, pacifiers and other distractions for us on board a plane that meant that she could shut us up long enough for, say, the flight attendant to read out the safety info. My mother's attitude about misbehaving children in general is right in line with Amy's. And all of my mother's children, including me, adore her.
It's great that you have children. I aim to join your ranks some day. But teaching your children that they need to consider the effects of their behavior on others -- even if you're doing so indirectly by keeping them distracted so they don't scream disruptively -- is part and parcel of being a parent. At least, it was part and parcel of my parents' approach. Which is one reason that I've been able to hold down jobs in multiple careers and live with all sorts of roommates to save money -- I know how to interact with people in a positive way. Note to Freddy: Teaching your kids to scream at anyone will not serve them well in later life. You are aware that one day they'll be adults, right?
As for Amy's future misery, you might keep in mind that studies have shown that women who choose to remain childless are generally just as happy, if not happier, than women who had children. I (for one) want to be a parent and would be depressed if this weren't possible; Amy feels otherwise. There are tradeoffs with everything in life. Just because you've chosen a certain tradeoff doesn't mean it's the one preferred by all. And if you're raising your kids to be okay with screaming at people now, you might want to be prepared for them to be screaming at you in the future, such as via the phone when you ask if they'll come visit you in the nursing home and they snap that they're too busy with work.
On a totally different note: Amy, any chance you'll blog on the new Pap smear recommendations? Specifically the part that discourages early treatment of abnormal cells because doing so can lead to premature labor down the road? I need someone to validate the feeling that a task group is viewing me as an incubation chamber rather than as a fully-formed human being...
marion at November 24, 2009 11:38 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/11/24/screamers_on_a.html#comment-1678894">comment from FreddyAnd when I do, if you so much as look at my 2 year old girl or 4 year old boy I'm going to encourage them to scream directly in your face that you're a creepy, ugly molester which, in your own self possessed way, you are.
If you parent your children, others will not have to take over in your absence. It's that simple.
The attention of 300 people on a plane does not belong to you because you did not use birth control. Consider people who get migraines. There are costs to lax parenting.
My parents, who I joked about them being "loving fascists," were merely people who set boundaries. There were no beatings and we were rarely yelled at. It wasn't necessary. They told us what was expected of them, and it seemed a really bad idea to not behave. Not because there would be violence, but because misbehaving just wasn't done.
Am I "a shallow bitch" because I expect you to be considerate of others and raise children who are as well? Do I have to buy a private jet because you're too busy doing who knows what to teach your children how to be civilized human beings? I pity those who deal with the results of your sense of parental entitlement.
Amy Alkon at November 25, 2009 12:48 AM
"Freddy" - if you're still here or not - you've made it clear that your life is all about you. Nice going. Could you yell, "Me! Me! Me!" any louder? Think not.
And you're teaching your kids to be bullet stops. Hope you like organ music.
-----
"...except the one I made the day I retired, which is to avoid air travel, with all its risks..."
The only thing you're really avoiding is the feeling - just a feeling - that you're not in control. Step into your car, and you're more likely to die there, period.
-----
Yes, Patrick, I can read a dictionary. Now, why don't you go masticate a section of partially-carbonized, thermally modified muscle tissue extracted from the carcass of a castrated fellow mammal?
Radwaste at November 25, 2009 4:30 AM
My word, what a lot of angry people! (Though thankfully the majority do "get it"). Is it really that hard to understand that our children are our own, and we should always do our best to avoid inflicting any bad behaviour they exhibit on others? Really?
I had to comment on this though "You will be out on your Thanksgiving "date," and all of us breeders will be surrounded by our children and spouses, enjoying the sound of crying babies".
No. No, we won't. Most of us breeders can tolerate crying babies without too much stress - at least when the parents are doing the best they can to parent. However 12 years in to the parenting thing (having had my own two wonderful children, who are my raison d'etre) I still do not enjoy the squalling of children. Nor do I expect that my children are the also the raison d'etre for the rest of planet Earth.
I am sure when (if) I am lucky enough to have grandchildren I will do my best to settle a crying child, just as I did with my own - but I will never, never enjoy the sound of crying children and I am amazed at, and rather dubious of, any such claim from others.
The main point is being deliberately ignored here by people who are simply proving the author's point. We all have a duty, as members of society, to TRY to limit the negatives we put out there for other members of our society.
Nobody blames the child who is behaving in an appalling manner, let's make that clear here. We blame the parent/s or caregivers. However, not blaming the child does not mean tolerating the intolerable.
Whatever really happened in this instance, it touched a nerve because it is something that happens a great deal: On the one side, parents who understand that their child is infinitely precious but still also understand that other human beings have a right to carry on their life without their child making it a misery. On the other side, those who absolutely, resolutely point blank refuse to even try to empathise with anyone but their own screaming infant.
Apparently, we simply have to insist that those who will not do the right thing are forced to do so. What a shame the airline gave in on this, it could have been a valuable lesson for some parents. However I suppose the fact that they did in fact force the lazy parent to leave the plane, even if they compensated her afterwards, is a lesson in itself.
Alison Dennehy at November 25, 2009 4:35 AM
There is a danger to antisocial behavior that isn't mentioned enough:
When you behave rudely in public, activists press for laws to make you behave.
This is the reason California leads the nation in "busybody" legislation. No one realizes that every time they back a law to force someone to do something others simply don't like, they further the means of their own oppression.
Radwaste at November 25, 2009 5:21 AM
"Nobody blames the child who is behaving in an appalling manner, let's make that clear here. We blame the parent/s or caregivers. However, not blaming the child does not mean tolerating the intolerable."
It gets down to "appalling manner." It's really not applalling for a 2 yr old to cry. They cry. Hopefully, a parent will distract them, or give them a toy, pacifier, or sippy cup (I would not recommend Benadryl, as I know from my own daughter that can cause hallucinations and allergic reactions in some children). I have no empathy for parents who would sit there and do nothing.
It's possible that she realized he was hungry, and yet they're taxing to the runway, so she's not supposed to get her bag with the food in it, which is supposed to be stowed. She figures as soon as they take off, she can grab it and give him what he wants. A hungry 2 yr old is going to fuss until they're fed - nothing else will distract them for long.
Truth is, we really don't know what happened here, yet some are willing to crucify the mother. No one is saying, "Hey, if my child cries, just suck it up!" No parent here has said that. But this has become the interpretation of our comments if we're not willing to crucify the mom and her little devil spawn.
Frankly, I don't really have faith in the flt crew here. They can be idiots leaving people on the tarmac, like irlandes wrote. Or making a woman get off the plane because her top is "too sexy". Rememember that incident?
The story seems conflicting. Was he shrieking or talking? "Plane Go Bye Bye" is hard to say when one is shrieking. 2 yr olds usually either do one or the other - shriek or talk. Even the airline claims he was talking.
And any flt attendent that would offer Benadryl to a 2 yr old should be fired. My kid's school can't even give medicine out anymore - not even Tylenol. They've learned (through lawsuits, presumably) that children respond very differently to medications, so I'm amazed that an airline would actually condone doping kids. This causes me to question the flt attendent's judgment and actions more than the mother's.
lovelysoul at November 25, 2009 6:21 AM
"Specifically the part that discourages early treatment of abnormal cells because doing so can lead to premature labor down the road? I need someone to validate the feeling that a task group is viewing me as an incubation chamber rather than as a fully-formed human being..."
That's a risk of treating the cells, yes, Weak cervix's don't hold in as well. But I had a LEEP between the twins and the other 2, and they just monitored it. COuld have stitched it closed if needed. It was fine. And I for one would rather not wait and deal when it's actually cancer. Whatever happened to tell the patient the risks and benefits and odds, and let THEM choose???
momof4 at November 25, 2009 6:28 AM
Freddy: Thank you for putting a "face" on what so many people, both with and without children, have a problem with. It's not the children, it's the parents.
Kids are giant balls of impulse, and we hope they are being civilized by the people who raise them. A parent who would encourage his child to screech at a stranger and consider her a child molester simply because she looked at him funny deserves the child he gets. Don't think your kids will treat you better when they're adults just because you share the same DNA.
On a somewhat different note, I really don't understand the mindset of people who seem to have created new humans simply so they'd have someone to talk to on Thanksgiving. Don't you have friends? Loved ones? Fuck buddies? Anything besides the people who are dependent on you for survival? Even though I plan to have a child someday, I'd rather spend time with my friends than my family. They are the family that doesn't make me want to spork my eyes out.
MonicaP at November 25, 2009 8:38 AM
And every other fully-grown-but-not-quite-adult human being in this day and age who uses up your space, time, and peace without even an acknowledgement.
Nice.
Conan the Grammarian at November 25, 2009 9:04 AM
"Even though I plan to have a child someday, I'd rather spend time with my friends than my family. They are the family that doesn't make me want to spork my eyes out."
Some of us like our families. And almost all my friends-I'd say all but 1-have their own kids and families to spend the holidays with.
momof4 at November 25, 2009 9:27 AM
Wow! You guys really are a bunch of barren cougars! Let's talk when you're 65. You can tell me about all the hot guys you're dating. Then you can tell me your Thanksgiving plans.
Wow right back...if you are having kids to ensure Thanksgiving plans, you are in for a rude awakening some day in your nursing home room...
Of course, the woman was raising the kid alone, was broke, and scared to death. She was near breaking apart herself, let alone parenting a kid. For some reason, that incident comes to mind when I read all these people talking about how that kid needs to be sorted out and taught some sort of lesson.
And she is the type of person that would suddenly find her meal paid for by me along with a few dollars in her hand if I had it. But we aren't talking about the outliers here. We are talking about a pervasive idea that people have the right to foist their rude nature upon everyone within earshot. That is an idea of which society needs to be disabused.
-Julie
JulieW at November 25, 2009 9:41 AM
There's something about family. The connections tend to be deeper and the commitments stronger. I have lots of friends, but I'm not sure I could really rely on them to take care of me full-time through a major illness. Sure, they'd bring food. A handful of them might stay with me when they could, but most of them have their own families and obligations.
I suspect it would work best with single girlfriends, with no families of their own to care for, but as you age, those are harder to come by. Or, maybe not, if you look to cultivate them.
Still, I admit to worrying a bit about my friends without children, as they age. It does seem to me that it could be quite lonely. My best friend has no children, and I wouldn't say she's particularly happy. All she has is her husband of 30 years, but they do almost everything separately. She sleeps late (because she has no kids to get up for school or anything to get her going), and, to me, her life seems unfilling. But she would probably still say she doesn't regret not having kids though.
lovelysoul at November 25, 2009 9:51 AM
Sounds to me like the BABY (as a 2 year old is) was having fun-just for the takeoff. 2 year olds get exited it's part of growing up. Maybe you tht are intolerant of a BABY would expect the mother to smother it with a pillow?
What a bunch of selfish prats some people are. I don't know you advice goddess, but this is not advice you were giving in this article, it was intolerance towards a BABY. You should never have your own because you have absolutely no idea about what it is like to have a 2 year old.
Pete at November 25, 2009 9:57 AM
"They are the family that doesn't make me want to spork my eyes out."
That is hilarious!
They say your friends are the family you choose for yourself. I lost my job a couple months ago, and last night one of my best friends took my boyfriend and I out for dinner. It was just the boost I needed. The company was good, the food was good, and I got to enjoy a meal without fretting about what the damage would look like on the credit card statement at the end of the month.
I come from a small family and get along just fine with my parents, but the extended family has never been close. I tend to do more things with friends than family, yet I must say that most of my friends don't have kids either. We are always there for each other.
Pirate Jo at November 25, 2009 11:18 AM
It's funny because I am up in the air right now trying out the in-flight Wifi and there is an 18-month-old in the row behind me. I thought, "Great, lucky me," when I saw him, but I actually am lucky because his parents are actually parenting, unlike the lady in this article.
Yes, he has been cranky at times, letting out whines and cries, but his parents are doing their best to minimize disturbance. Every time he makes a noise they shush or try to distract him. They have plenty of snacks and supplies. They apologized to the man directly in front of him who gets the worst of it. The little one has thankfully been quiet or asleep for long stretches. I am much more able to tolerate the occasional outburst because I can see his parents are doing their best. They also bought their son his own ticket. They are clearly educated on infant safety on planes and are paying extra money for it. Respect!
No one expects babies and toddlers to be completely civilized or else out of the public, but we do expect their parents to constantly supervise and instruct them to become more civilized and minimize public disturbance. Or, at least we did, and should. It shows they take their responsibility to their young one seriously and that they respect the world around them. I am sure this couple would never have allowed their child to disrupt the safety demonstration like the kid in the article. They are putting forth a good effort and I really appreciate my flight not being all-out torture, just a bit annoying, because of it. As all the parents trying to excuse the mom are saying, parenting is a HARD JOB. No one is arguing with you--but you chose your job, so please DO it!!
Debra at November 25, 2009 11:33 AM
I have a friend who has no children, no siblings, and his parents both died when he was young. Starting in his 30s, he bought long-term care insurance, so that he could have a home nurse should he ever become ill or incapacitated. He has lots of friends, but says, "I don't want to ask my friends to change my diapers. That's not fair."
I don't think I would want to either. That's so personal, and I've always been rather modest and uncomfortable unless I'm really close to someone, and besides, it doesn't seem quite fair to put that burden on your friends. I'd advise long-term care insurance to anyone without children or family support.
lovelysoul at November 25, 2009 11:34 AM
I'd advise long-term care insurance to anyone without children or family support.
I'd go a step farther and advise everyone to get it. Long term care of an ill family member is very difficult under the best of circumstances. Wouldn't it be a nice gift to give your kids to know that you took care to find the funds to provide someone to do the more distasteful tasks so that they would be left to love you and supervise?
-Julie
JulieW at November 25, 2009 11:40 AM
No Pete,
Smother? Really? And where exactly did that come from? No one here.
All people are asking is that the mother have done something than say, "after takeoff i'll give him some food and he'll fall asleep."
This was occurring while they were on the ground. She made no attempt, by her own words, to TRY to calm him. That is what so many people have a problem with. We understand that kids are rambunctious, but at least the parent could attempt SOMETHING to calm that child down.
And funny, I just checked my plane ticket for tonight, and it doesn't say that screaming brats are part of the in flight entertainment. Not part of what I paid for.
E. Steven Berkimer at November 25, 2009 12:02 PM
Think you have it bad on the plane?
Check this guy out.
Radwaste at November 25, 2009 3:58 PM
And you love women too right E? A mother knows her child best and she may have realised that the very young boy would settle once she had access to the things that were needed.
Do you not think the boy would have been restrained in his seat for take off? What would you suggest she did to calm him. I'm sure you are an expert on being a mother. Did she really not try to calm him? I didn't actually read that part.
Not even a warning from the ignorant Southwest staff.
I have never met a child who is a brat only adults that call them that.
Pete at November 25, 2009 4:32 PM
Why is it that anyone assumes the flight attendants have not seen things like this before?
Are they slaves to be spit on, for daring to address anyone in an airplane?
Wow, are there some serious ego problems out there, when a casual traveler assumes to know anything about air travel, not to mention more than the actual crew!
Radwaste at November 25, 2009 8:49 PM
Well, I guess that no matter how clearly we make the point, some people will still absolutely refuse to accept that children are the responsibility of their parents and it is the parents job to minimise the upleasantness their child causes. All that is being asked of anyone in this forum is exactly what I would do in the same circumstances - do your best to parent. It is your job.
I think it has been made very clear that nobody blames the child - and again and again it has been pointed out that this is only one small example of a much bigger social problem. Again and again it has been noted that a parent who is trying to fix the problem at their own inconvenience will receive (at least from every post I have read) sympathy and assistance - but still a small group choose to nit pick and pretend this sort of thing is no big deal.
Perhaps you, personally, don't care if loud, invasive children misbehave around you while their parents refuse to do their job - but many, many others do and our rights and beliefs are just as relevant as the vocal minority who are willing to put up and shut up.
However, I have come to one conclusion: those who cannot or will not see that everyone has rights (not just lazy over-indulgent parents of badly behaved children) are those who themselves were (or still are) lazy parents. I would wager that most of those who don't "get it" have inflicted, or are now inflicting the results of their lazy and over-indulgent parenting on everyone else.
Of course such a person is going to take umbrage at being called out on their poor parenting, and there is absolutely no point in arguing with them, we just have to force them to do the right thing since they obviously refuse to do so voluntarily.
A good precedent was set by the Southwest staff, hopefully this will start a new trend. When people realise their lazy, anti-social behaviour will negatively affect themselves, not just the rest of us, maybe then they will do the right thing.
I feel genuinely sorry for children with lazy, over-indulgent, blinkered parents. The poor little souls grow up unhappy, sometimes become bullies and are usually socially isolated - nobody wants to tolerate poor behaviour, not even other children. When they are not taught from very young how to do the right thing they have no chance to learn. It is not their fault, and sadly then it is only the start of their own and society's problems with them.
As for the rest of it, it seems the author has tapped into a huge pool of people who agree with her. I reckon if my behaviour was anti-social and unpleasant I would be scared and angry now too.
Good luck to everyone. As one imperfect parent (but one who tries my very best to raise sociable, empathetic, well mannered children), happy parenting - and I only wish for you all exactly what you deserve.
Alison Dennehy at November 26, 2009 2:10 AM
No. No. No I won't buy your book. Because you're wrong, and yes, I'm willing to say it that bluntly (BTW, I DO own Skenazy's book and I love it to pieces and she is right 98% of the time). Kids will be kids. People will talk on the phone. Mind your own business and let them mind theirs. Southwest acted completely out of order booting them off the plane AND delaying other passenger's takeoff. Totally unacceptable. They were rude. The kid was just excited to go home to see his dad - and sure, he may have been VERY annoying. But look at the world through his eyes for a minute, k?
Mark Uhde at November 26, 2009 8:03 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/11/24/screamers_on_a.html#comment-1679247">comment from Mark UhdeNo, Mark, you're wrong, and "Ranging Ranter," another commenter is right. Here's his comment:
Let's get correct here: Southwest didn't delay other passengers' takeoff -- the mother who didn't feed her child before she got on the plane and flew with a little screamer did.
How about this: Look at the world through people who get migraines. I'm not one of them, by the way, but I sure feel for them.
My parents didn't fly with us until my sister was 7 and I was 12, but we were expected to behave, and did.
Amy Alkon at November 26, 2009 8:09 PM
Southwest was completely right booting them off the plane - but should never apologized. The undisciplined child was yelling so loud the preflight announcements could not be made. These are required by law.
The person with the child (She is in NO WAY a parent) should have been told either you calm the child down or you will have to leave and be banned for x time from our planes. She actually should have been arrested for refusing to comply with the crew's orders.
One on a flight from Toronto to Houston, I was subjected to a brat slightly older than this one running crazy on the plane. I took way a metal Tonka trunk after he hit me on the head with it and gave it to the attendant.
They even let the brat run up an down the aisle during landing (after the attendants were buckled in. I thought he was going to go flying and break his neck.
The crew asked everyone to stay seated an allow those with young children to exit first. They looked so smug getting off the plane and snatching back that truck from the attendant. Not so smug when the rest of us exited to see them in handcuffs in the airport. (they had been arrested for not following the crew instruction and child endangerment - this was pre 911)
I've been flying since I was less than 2 years old. Often every 2 years or so. One time I did something I had to be reprimanded for - I kicked the person in front of me 2 times. My Dad took away my shoes and made me sit with my legs folded on the seat the rest of the trip.
I am sympathetic when the child is screaming in pain - because they can't pop their ears. I've been reduced to tears myself.
THose of you who just can't control a 2 yo. Make sure you save your vacation days - when your kid hits 10 you will need them for the court dates. See when his/her 4th grade teacher says no sit down and do you work and your brat throws things at her - the brat gets arrested for disrupting a classroom and you have to appear in court to get your brat back.
Kimberly at November 26, 2009 8:22 PM
"In twenty years, will your neighbors' children remember you? I'm not assuming anything. I'm weeping for your shallow, atomistic view of parents and their children."
You know, those of us who choose not to have kids would be a lot more patient with unruly children, I bet, if parents would lose this self-righteous attitude about having bred. We have eyes; we know that kids misbehave. But a misbehaving kid with a parent whose attitude is "Everyone around me should tolerate my child's behavior, and those without children aren't allowed to criticize me" is enough to drive even a saint up the wall. Add that to the hysterical argument that "You'll be sorry when you're old and gray and have no kids at your bedside!" and it makes me wonder, what decade are we living in, again?
You'd think, with it being the twenty-first century, that we'd be past the notion that childless-by-choice women are dooming themselves to a lifetime of unhappiness and regret. I see modern parents who work themselves into a lather insulting the childless, and I think, they doth protest too much. Their hysteria over our life choices suggest to me that they aren't too secure, or happy, about their own.
Kimberly at November 27, 2009 6:54 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/11/24/screamers_on_a.html#comment-1679305">comment from KimberlyYay, Kimberly.
Also, the notion that children raised with a vast sense of entitlement will be wonderful to have around as adults is, I think, rather optimistic.
Amy Alkon at November 27, 2009 7:00 AM
I fly from the US to Japan about four times a year, mostly economy (Delta or Northwest out of Narita is $8,000 for business class...I'd need another job just to pay for airfare). That's potentially a LOT of crying babies/ screaming toddlers :-D
I carry one or two small toys that I buy at the airport, usually small stuffed animals and I always have my supply of M&M's. The stuffed toys are great peacemakers. I feel for parents trying everything to make their child comfortable. What often happens is an unfortunate loop of 'baby apprehensive on plane, parent tenses up, baby feels tension, cries, parent tenses more, baby wails' and off you go to hours of crying! It sometimes takes a stranger to break the cycle, distract the child. Sometimes they're so cranked up God couldn't help, but sometimes a Woodstock toy and some silly faces, or M&Ms with parental permission, can help.
crella at November 27, 2009 3:34 PM
Sorry, not enough coffee yet, evidently...that was 'to' the US 'from' Japan. I live in Kobe.
crella at November 27, 2009 4:23 PM
I understand insults are being thrown, but this: "rights of your children end where my discomfort begins" - this is an incredibly problematic statement.
No one's *rights* end at someone else's *discomfort*.
Now. No one has the *right* to have a plane ride; a child compromising flight safety is a problem that needs to be dealt with.
By the same token people also don't have the *right* not to be irritated in public.
I am irritated when people are tiresome and think mainly of themselves. That appears to be the case on both sides of this issue.
Absinthe at November 27, 2009 5:06 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/11/24/screamers_on_a.html#comment-1679416">comment from AbsintheI am irritated when people are tiresome and think mainly of themselves. That appears to be the case on both sides of this issue.
Um...I wasn't on the plane, but I'm thinking of the people who were - and also of people who get migraines from screaming like this. My parents didn't bring us places when we were so young that we were liable to scream. They would have been mortified at us disturbing others. Apparently, mortification at others' discomfort is in short supply these days, especially amongst practitioners of what I call "go right ahead" mommying.
What you're talking about above is a sort of manners relativism. I care about whether I am too loud, driving too fast, etc., and thus hijacking your time, sleep, attention, or peaceful enjoyment of your apartment. There aren't two sides to this issue. Either you're a selfish rudester who's unconcerned for anyone but yourself or you live like a citizen of a society, in which there are many other people.
Which are you?
Amy Alkon at November 27, 2009 5:37 PM
"And if you can't take a crying baby and you are getting on a plane, take earplugs. And a sleeping mask. Sheesh!"
Yeah, and if the kid is on it's mother's lap next to you and it keeps whacking you with it's head or feet depending upon how she is holding it and it smashes it's hand into your tray trying to get at your food when you are trying to eat your meal, earplugs and a sleeping mask are really going to make a difference.
All this happened to me on my last flight. There should be one section reserved for parents flying with toadlers. That way the rest of us are at least spared of their getting at innocent bystanders. Oh and having a seat for small children should be mandatory. It is not possible for someone to keep a kid on their lap during a long flight. It's bad for the kid who in a car seat in a regular seat has more room to squirm and can't get at the poor sap sitting next to it.
Not to mention that in the event of severe turbulence, the kid in the lap becomes a flying missile.
minervah at November 28, 2009 8:19 PM
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