Super (Dog) Nanny
Alex Williams writes for the NYT on parents applying Cesar Millan's dog-training wisdom to raising civilized children.
I can't even keep track of the people this who've informed me that I am absolutely unqualified to weigh in on parenting since I have yet to squeeze out a child. Sorry, ladies and gents, if there's an area on the body a person's wisdom is centered, I don't think it's down there. And while I don't want children, I don't see the discipline I apply to my dog as much different from what kids thrive on.
An excerpt from Williams' piece:
"When we started watching his shows, we had intended to apply his advice toward our dogs," said Amy Twomey, a blogger on parenthood for The Dallas Morning News who is raising three children under 10 with her husband, Matt. "But we realized a lot of ideas can be used on our kids."Indeed, Mr. Millan's advice has replaced a shelf full of books on how to tame an unruly child. "It's all the same simple concept: how to be the pack leader in your own house," she said.
Certainly, an army, or at least a few divisions, of credentialed experts on human parenthood long ago stumbled on Mr. Millan's philosophical holy trinity -- exercise, discipline and affection equals happiness.
... "Unlike modern parents," (Allison Pearson) added, "dog trainers don't think discipline equals being mean. They understand that dogs are happiest when they know their position in the hierarchy."
... Mr. Hranek said that some parents he knows "do not allow the word 'no' to be said around the house. How absurd is that?"
"When you're wishy-washy with dogs, they take advantage -- 'He didn't mean don't eat that biscuit,' " Mr. Hranek said. "Kids think the same way."
I shot a video of Lucy a while back -- I was practicing with my neighbors' Flip camera -- but I needed to learn iMovie to edit it, and I still haven't gotten around to that. It's a shame, because you'd see how adorably good she is on command...immediately following orders to sit, lie down, and come when I call.
I even trained her to use a litter box if I'm not home to let her out or if she has to go in the middle of the night. And, because I don't think my neighbors should have their lives disturbed because I have a pet, she's not allowed to bark outside, and hears "no noise!" and is brought inside immediately if she does.
It's all about training, and I have always believed you train dogs the way you parent kids; basically being a "loving fascist" like my parents were. If she's good, she might get a treat, but if she's naughty, she'll get punished -- consistently, even though it sometimes feels a bit embarrassing to mete out punishment on a 3-lb. dog (I joke that I beat her with a rolled-up business card).
Actually, because she's a very social little dog, if she's naughty, she goes to "doggie jail," which means being closed in my bedroom instead of being out in the thick of things. If she's really naughty, she has to sit in the dry bathtub for a few minutes -- her absolute least favorite place. Even with my dog, there's none of this culture of "go-right-ahead" mommying (although a few people have called me a bitch in recent days, I'm not my dog's mom.)
iMovie's fun, you'll like it. There are tutorials for each step of the process.
Lucy's a good girl! I'm still training our 5-year-old Flatcoat. They tend to be easily distracted, but once they learn something they have it down. Now falling leaves are our biggest distraction while in the park training :-D They're exuberant so the first things he learned were not to jump up on guests, to sit at crosswalks and not to bark every time the neighbor's dogs bark. Then we got into the rest of it. He is still slow about obeying 'down' and once down he scoots around in that position LOL, in his mind he's still doing what I told him to...a little more work on that is needed :-D
crella at November 29, 2009 12:33 AM
Credit South Park with the idea of using Cesar Milan's techniques for controlling dogs on children. Season 10, Episode 7, Tsst, shows Cartman's mom, at her wit's end with Cartman's near-psychotic behavior. Nanny 911 and Super Nanny have proven unsuccessful, so Liane Cartman resorts to the Dog Whisperer himself. But you can watch the episode for yourself with the link I provided.
Patrick at November 29, 2009 1:26 AM
There are similarities, taking into account that we don't want children to think of themselves as inferior, or set up a pecking order...
I would rather say that children are happier and more secure with parents who set limits and are consistent.
Ben-David at November 29, 2009 5:51 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/11/29/super_dog_nanny.html#comment-1679574">comment from Ben-DavidLooking back, Ben-David, I had well-defined boundaries, and I do think it made things easier and made me happier. It wasn't really a big deal, either. I also think it feels good for kids to have expectations to meet.
Amy Alkon at November 29, 2009 6:03 AM
Is the sequel going to be titled "I Provoke Rude People, Letters from Readers Helping to Prove my Point?"
I suspect the vitriol comes from guilt. They know you're right, and they can't stand it.
MarkD at November 29, 2009 6:23 AM
Ben-David writes: There are similarities, taking into account that we don't want children to think of themselves as inferior, or set up a pecking order...
Children already know they're inferior. How could they miss it? It only shows itself in every aspect of their existence. They are smaller, they are weaker, they're less informed, etc. They know this and accept this, and they rely upon adults to do all the hard stuff and protect them.
And although they do test boundaries, the fact that they know there are boundaries in the first place means they except the fact that there are restraints on their behavior.
The idea that we don't want to establish a pecking order is absurd. Yes, we do want to establish a pecking order, and children are quite happy with this arrangement. All the power, together with all the responsibility, is with the adults.
Patrick at November 29, 2009 6:33 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/11/29/super_dog_nanny.html#comment-1679578">comment from MarkDIs the sequel going to be titled "I Provoke Rude People, Letters from Readers Helping to Prove my Point?" I suspect the vitriol comes from guilt. They know you're right, and they can't stand it.
Ha - I like that. I just like helping them show the kind of people they truly are.
Plenty of people disagree with me -- on lots of subjects. Civil letters explaining why they basically think I'm an idiot or Satan's next of kin are always welcomed.
Amy Alkon at November 29, 2009 6:43 AM
>>All the power, together with all the responsibility, is with the adults.
Not quite, Patrick.
I wish it was that clear cut...but parents, unlike loving pet owners, know they must raise their young to do without them.
Looking back, now that mine are almost grown, I can see that you start to relinquish your absolute adult power with the first sippy cup!
Jody Tresidder at November 29, 2009 7:57 AM
"I can't even keep track of the people this who've informed me that I am absolutely unqualified to weigh in on parenting since I have yet to squeeze out a child."
This is easy to defeat. Tell such people to shut up about NASCAR, the NFL, NBA, F1, MLB and even Little League, because they were not a driver/player. Want to comment about some politician? Shut up. You've never been elected. You cannot know what it's like. OJ trial, Ruby Ridge, Waco? Huh. You watched television, and that's all. Think those nasty executives need to walk to work? You've never been one of those, either - never even studied their situation - but you want to talk?
It's another manifestation of the inherent schizophrenia of people - the one that says, "what I'm doing is right, and what you're doing is wrong".
Radwaste at November 29, 2009 8:32 AM
Spending twenty years tending to the concerns of children while also pursuing an adult life does provide you with greater breadth and depth of experience when discussing issues regarding raising children.
But I can think of few other similarly life-changing experiences--combat, business ownership, loss of health--where people who did *not* experience the event feel so free to lecture those who did.
While anyone *can* have an opinion about combat, business ownership, health loss, child-raising, etc, and anyone is free to share it, those who do not speak from experience should check some of their vehemence, at least when speaking to experienced people. Experience alone does not make someone right or wrong, to be sure, but it increase the odds that the more experienced party will have a more full and complete understanding of the issues and facts.
And remember that raising kids is a daily chore engaged in for about two decades, if done properly. Much like dancing ballet or learning an advanced professional skill, it may look simple to those who never tried it, and thus people are quick to give opinions on the performance. Critics should can give critiques, but they better remember they are only critics, and the most dismal performer is still a better performer than the greatest critic.
Put it another way, soft-bellied people giving a fighter unsolicited advice after a tough round can be properly told, "You know so much, you take the next @#$% round, and if you make it through, he will let you know how *you* did!" So unless you were in that ring, or are prepared to go there yourself, show some respect, even if the fighter is a bum compared to other fighters.
Spartee at November 29, 2009 8:37 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/11/29/super_dog_nanny.html#comment-1679583">comment from SparteeMy business is understanding and changing human behavior. I don't have to be married, a lesbian, on drugs, or a very religious person to give worthwhile and practical advice to people who are.
By the way, I did my first session last night (my Private Sessions With Amy), and helped a guy with a book he's written. It was really exciting, and he says I helped him, and I loved giving business advice (selling things is one of the five things I'm good at...and there are only five things I understand/know how to do really well: eating, dressing, writing, human nature, and selling things). I rollerskate really well, too and ski backwards and every which way, but I don't rollerskate anymore, and haven't left the house much in two years while writing this book.
Amy Alkon at November 29, 2009 8:56 AM
But of COURSE there's a pecking order in a family, as there should be. It's called adults at the top, then children, then pets. That's what being a "loving fascist" is all about. A family is NOT a democracy. That's not to say you don't let kids voice an opinion or listen to their input, but at the end of the day what the parent says, goes. Or at least that's how it should be.
Anne at November 29, 2009 9:13 AM
"But I can think of few other similarly life-changing experiences--combat, business ownership, loss of health--where people who did *not* experience the event feel so free to lecture those who did."
That's what gets to me too. Not that people can't have an opinion, or great theories and ideas, but I've never seen another area where people who haven't had experience in said area feel so justified in claiming they know just as much as those who do.
And having BEEN a child doesn't count as parenting experience. It's the difference between being a passenger on a plane or the pilot. Honestly, would anyone really go up to a pilot and say, "I've ridden on planes, and read books about planes, so I bet I know as much as you do about flying planes!"? No, of course not. The pilot is totally reponsible for the plane, and the well-being of all its occupants. Being along for the ride does not give you any understanding of what that's like.
In the same vein, who would ever say to Amy that they know what it's like to be an author if they've never actually written or published a book? Would you say, "Hey, I've read books; I've even read books about writing books, so I probably know as much you do about being an author."
Wrong. That would be terribly condescending and disrepectful of her experience as an actual author. Experience gives one certain incalcuable insights into the process. The book tours, the interviews, the publishing, etc. I'm sure there's a whole lot more to being an author than writing the book itself...but the difference is that I know what I don't know.
So, why do non-parents take such glee in claiming they know as much as parents do? They wouldn't say that to hardly anybody else, in any other area of knowledge or experience.
Personally, I find the whole "squeeze out a child" verbiage unbelievably condescending, as if the only thing that separates a true parent from a pet owner, or anyone else, is a vagina.
The dog training techniques may be good and effective for disciplining a child. But, just as being an author is about more than writing a book, there's a whole lot more to parenting than just the area of discipline.
lovelysoul at November 29, 2009 9:22 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/11/29/super_dog_nanny.html#comment-1679589">comment from AnneThat's what being a "loving fascist" is all about. A family is NOT a democracy. That's not to say you don't let kids voice an opinion or listen to their input, but at the end of the day what the parent says, goes. Or at least that's how it should be.
We were encouraged to use rational argument when we wanted something or wanted to persuade my parents of something.
Amy Alkon at November 29, 2009 9:36 AM
lovelysoul I dont have to be a suregon to know that the guy who left a pair of scissors in my freinds abdomen made a mistake.
Likewise I dont have to be a concert trained pianist to hear some one miss a note or two or fall slightly out of the peices proper timing.
In the same vein while I may not 'know' what it takes to be a parent I know when a child has bad parents - not in the way a child acts for the most part but in how the parent responds.
You dont need first hand experince to spot a mistake - you just need to pay attention
lujlp at November 29, 2009 9:38 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/11/29/super_dog_nanny.html#comment-1679591">comment from lujlpluj is right. Parenting basics include teaching consideration for others. If a parent does not do this, and is not doing it, they are a bad parent -- and not a very good person.
Amy Alkon at November 29, 2009 10:01 AM
lovelysoul, aside from trying to invoke a "special pleading", you're leaving out the Elephant In The Room: the Advice Goddess researches material including the direct testimony of parents.
Radwaste at November 29, 2009 10:03 AM
Off topic, but your LA Times column was picked up in today's Austin American-Statesman. Preach it, Amy!!
Bertha at November 29, 2009 10:06 AM
On topic:
Yes, being a parent does give special insight into the particular challenges of civilizing little savages, but I agree with Amy in general.
As participants in society, we all have a good sense of what acceptable social behavior is, and a right to express an opinion when we perceive that it's not being met.
I don't think the analogy of combat or flying a plane is very apt here - those are very special, highly-developed experiences/skills that regular folks don't have.
I think a better analogy would be like this: I've never waited tables but I sure as heck can tell when I'm getting good or bad service in a restaurant, and wouldn't feel at all out of line pointing it out.
Bertha at November 29, 2009 10:14 AM
Yes, probably the reason my wife and I survived raising two kids, and the reason they turned out reasonably okay, is that we owned dogs for nine years previously and trained many puppies.
Raising puppies is not exactly like raising kids (and not just because kids learn to speak words, as well as understand them) but the similarities are useful. The need for a system of discipline consistently applied, which several have mentioned, may be the biggest. What we learned about discipline from raising puppies was that the system cannot use abstract standards; it needs to be adjusted to fit the personality of each dog. We had a springer that felt crushed by a harsh tone of voice and a German shorthair that could be corrected only with physical pain. So we knew to adjust for differences between the two children.
A big difference between pups and kids? A choke collar would probably discipline both, but we didn't use one on our human offspring. Despite the obvious convenience, we found other ways to enforce our dominance.
But seriously, the most important difference is, the dog owner is training a creature who is expected be the subordinate for a lifetime. The parent is trying to prepare the child to live independently and perhaps establish a separate "pack." So a lot of the training must be entirely different, even from an early age.
As for the hierarchy bit, remember that both dogs and humans are animals that evolved in small hierarchical groups. A dog owner or parent should make the hierarchy as benevolent and free as practical, but had better take pains to stay at the top of it, for the stability of the group.
Axman at November 29, 2009 10:33 AM
I have no problem with making a fair judgment about a parent, or their parenting, but that's different than seeming to trivialize parenthood in general.
I think certain words are demeaning. Take, for instance "squeeze", or, I believe, often Amy has used the much worse, "spit"...as in "spit a child out"....like anyone can do it, so there's nothing special or unique about being a parent.
Truth is, many of us did not spit a child out. We labored in agony for hours, only to have our abdomens ripped open...so, maybe, that's why I'm a little sensitive to it.
But I also think I could use it in any way to demean someone's work or life experience. I could say, "So, you spit a book out. Big deal."
The word implies that it's something done quickly, and without much thought. After laboring for 2 years to painstakingly write a book, I would suspect Amy herself wouldn't like her efforts described that way. She didn't spit the book out, she wrote it. See how much more respectful that sounds to her as an author?
Likewise, I, having labored for 19 years (with more to go) to raise decent human beings take offense to the verbiage "spit" or "sqeeze" a child out. This sort of language seems meant to trivialize the act of becoming a parent, as well as all the experience gained while being a parent, as if it doesn't matter.
I just think more respectful language could be used, so you'd get a more respectful debate.
lovelysoul at November 29, 2009 10:41 AM
>>So a lot of the training must be entirely different, even from an early age.
That's what I was trying to say before, Axman.
Kids grow up, and pets grow old.
(And both of these things play havoc with our hearts!)
Jody Tresidder at November 29, 2009 11:01 AM
Right, Jody. I should have acknowledged that you started me on this train of thought, and thanked you for it.
Axman at November 29, 2009 11:10 AM
"My business is understanding and changing human behavior."
Then you are certainly familiar with the near-universal failing of people tending to overestimate their competence in areas where they are, in fact, among the least competent relative to others. I gently suggest--without putting my own ego into it, I hope--that parenting may be such an area for some on this board.
Moreover, I think many of you are defending from a position others here are not really advancing on to attack: I don't see anyone here saying the childless *cannot* opine, or that they should not. I think the point of disagreement between the camps is how much the multi-decade, life-altering experience of actually raising kids informs people about the process. Frankly, having first lived a good chunk of my adult life without kids, and then raising some, I chuckle now at how little I understood parenting and kids prior to having kids to tend.
"lovelysoul I dont have to be a suregon to know that the guy who left a pair of scissors in my freinds abdomen made a mistake. Likewise I dont have to be a concert trained pianist to hear some one miss a note or two or fall slightly out of the peices proper timing. In the same vein while I may not 'know' what it takes to be a parent I know when a child has bad parents - not in the way a child acts for the most part but in how the parent responds. You dont need first hand experince to spot a mistake - you just need to pay attention."
Parenting is not a circumstance of limited interaction resulting in such discrete, binary outcomes as you cite. Scissors in or out after 3 hour surgery? Easy call. Wrong note hit during Chopin? Yup, mistake can be spotted.
If only most parenting could be measured in such ways.
A better analogy is the conduct of a twenty-year campaign by a general employing his skills to win a war where circumstances, not just his skill, will likely determine the outcome. Much of parenting is doing the best you can with the kid you get at the beginning. Any given day, viewed in isolation, won't tell you much about the general or the situation from which he started the fight.
Spartee at November 29, 2009 11:29 AM
"A better analogy is the conduct of a twenty-year campaign by a general employing his skills to win a war where circumstances, not just his skill, will likely determine the outcome. Much of parenting is doing the best you can with the kid you get at the beginning. Any given day, viewed in isolation, won't tell you much about the general or the situation from which he started the fight."
So well stated, Spartee. I think the battle analogy is perfect, as those parents, like myself, who started with a special-needs or "difficult" child certainly feel as if it's been a long, hard-won battle. And I agree that no one could've picked any one particular day of my parenting and predicted the outcome - success or falure. To an outsider, it could've appeared to be going either way, depending on what moment or day they caught.
I would've hated to be judged on that alone - or have my child judged on one bad moment. That's why I'm more sensitive about the rash and overly harsh criticism of other parents.
lovelysoul at November 29, 2009 11:52 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/11/29/super_dog_nanny.html#comment-1679614">comment from lovelysoul"spit"...as in "spit a child out".
Spit isn't a good metaphor. It's "squeezed." People who don't have a sense of humor will be offended around me. I call my writing process "crawling behind the furniture to look for better verbs," and think it's hilarious when Gregg asks, "Do I have your divided attention?" (ADHD -- like having 16 squirrels in your head all running different directions.) If you're okay with your choices, what does it matter whether somebody else doesn't use gentle language to describe them?
Those horrible e-mails from people? I print them because I think attacking somebody this way because you think your attack will remain private is dirty pool. What I'm doing -- with my book and other stuff I put my time toward -- is what I think is right, usually after a good deal of consideration, and that's what matters.
And you can describe my writing process any way you want. (You can never know the true horror.) If you want to speculate that it took minimal effort to write it, go right ahead. What counts is whether the book is entertaining and readable, not whether your friends started to think you had been kidnapped while you were writing it.
Amy Alkon at November 29, 2009 12:24 PM
I am now amazed. I had no idea that bearing young was inclusive only of the earnest and thoughtful homo sapiens.
Radwaste at November 29, 2009 12:45 PM
The lovely Goddess writes: My business is understanding and changing human behavior. I don't have to be married, a lesbian, on drugs, or a very religious person to give worthwhile and practical advice to people who are.
I guess I should just reject the advice you gave me, when you published my letter in your column. After all, you're not a gay man.
Patrick at November 29, 2009 1:05 PM
"If you're okay with your choices, what does it matter whether somebody else doesn't use gentle language to describe them?"
I'm ok. I've been here for awhile and know your writing style. Your sharp humor is what first drew me here (in your advice column).
I just thought perhaps, for your sake, it might be easier not to get so much hate mail. I don't really even think many parents are disagreeing with your view on manners in public. That's not why they're mad. I think they feel disrespected, like you're trivializing what they do.
As a business owner, I learned a long time ago that how you start a conversation sets the tone, and within a few minutes, that person is either listening to your point of view - and your constructive criticism - or they're seething mad and not hearing anything else you say. The talk can either be confrontational or constructive. If you really want to change behavior, it needs to be constructive.
So, I think whether you say "squeeze" or "spit", a lot of parents aren't hearing much after that because you've already antagonized them.
lovelysoul at November 29, 2009 1:45 PM
lovelysoul writes: I don't really even think many parents are disagreeing with your view on manners in public. That's not why they're mad. I think they feel disrespected, like you're trivializing what they do.
Oh, I disagree. I think they're feeling like they have the right to thrust their unruly brats on the rest of us and that the rest of us should just suck it up. And they resent the fact that while they've gotten away with this in the past, someone is calling them out.
Patrick at November 29, 2009 2:50 PM
It's amazing how short-sighted people become when thet get defensive. While channel surfing I have come across the show The Super-Nanny. I was curious and it basically backs up everything that you and good parents know. If you haven't watched the show the premise is- You have a family with out of control children and the parents are clueless as of what to do.
Super-Nany goes in and is firm and consistent with boundaries and expectations for the children. In a short time the children are happier and more well behaved. It's teaching the parents that is the difficult part. The parents want to be the kids friends and not their parents. The parents fail to consistently enforce boundaries and consequences and the Super- Nanny has to keep rescueing the parents from their own lack of will.
I'm not sure the Super-Nanny has kids of her own either. But that arguement doesn't wash. What! Eery clueless 14 year old girl that squeezes out a kid is a parenting expert! Please- She probably doesn't know how she got pregnant in the first place. She has working plumbing- that doesn't make anyone a good parent.
David M at November 29, 2009 2:54 PM
No one is saying that having a kid makes you an expert. Clearly not. But it's a disservice to the many parents who are struggling to do a good job to act as if we're as clueless as a 14 yr old.
All kids misbehave. Some because of bad parenting, but most because they're cranky, sick, hungry, or tired. It's the presumption that misbehavior equals bad parenting that doesn't go over well...because almost every GOOD parent on this board has experienced having a disruptive child at some point.
And, you'll notice, Supernanny is very respectful to her families, even those who are really out of control. She's there to help, not condemn.
lovelysoul at November 29, 2009 3:16 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/11/29/super_dog_nanny.html#comment-1679639">comment from David MI love that show, David M. My sister, by the way, doesn't have kids, either -- none that came out of her body. But, she works brilliantly to help autistic kids and other special needs kids function. And, by the way, she never went to school for that, and makes an incredible difference in a lot of people's lives. And, she takes no crap.
Amy Alkon at November 29, 2009 3:19 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/11/29/super_dog_nanny.html#comment-1679641">comment from lovelysoulAnd, you'll notice, Supernanny is very respectful to her families, even those who are really out of control. She's there to help, not condemn.
My parents were always respectful, but firm. Disrespect isn't necessary if you establish boundaries and are completely consistent about enforcing them. My dog would be the naughtiest little thing if she were Gregg's dog. He's completely indulgent -- she'd have him grilling her filet mignon in about a day. In my house, she gets about five microscopic pieces of chicken a year, the occasional tiny, sliced-up dog treat as a reward, and the rest of the time, she eats only Kibble. It's the antithesis of those parents who make their kids macaroni and cheese on command.
As for feeling "disrespected," it's not my job (or what's needed) to coddle parents and tell them they're wonderful. You want to do that, submit your own op-ed. I'd prefer more op-eds telling people it's time to be civilized; for example, collect their trash when they leave the movie theater instead of throwing it on the floor. Wow, lifting that popcorn cup and carrying it all the way to the bin 50 feet away...oh, the strain, the exertion, it's too much!
Amy Alkon at November 29, 2009 3:26 PM
Geez Louise. Spitting, squeezing, who gives a shit? I'll jump in with the old Monty Python Scene from The Meaning of Life. The baby falls out while Mom is washing the dishes. She looks down and says something like "Oh--get that, would you Diedre?" before Dad says he selling them all off for scientific experimentation.
I'm also partial to George Carlin's names for birth control pills, such as: Mom Bomb, Womb Broom, Papa Stopper, Fetus Fail, Kiddie Kill, Preg-not, and Baby Maybe (for gamblers).
"Don't take life so serious, it ain't no-how permanent." -- Walt Kelly.
Pricklypear at November 29, 2009 3:38 PM
My husband and I were perfect little dog parents before we had *real* children. The two are totally different. You leave your *child* home all day sometimes. In the real world, you cannot leave your child along long enough to pay for your gas. You don't get to just put them away because you are sick or they are sick, you have a deadline to meet or just need a nap. The thing that makes parenting difficult is that it is relentless.
The reason I think being a parent is such a milestone is that you learn just how vulnerable you are. Most parents have suffering the horror of a child doing or saying exactly the wrong thing, It is certainly a lesson in humility.
I am a parent that was interviewed by a television station one Thanksgiving when we were stuck in an airport for about 5 hours. Some passengers were getting frustrated by the wait and across the country violence was erupting. The interviewer was amazed that our family was making the best of it. I had two preschoolers. We read to them, talked to them, and we played Go Fish and basically enjoyed our family time. Our contented children were seated and quietly playing on a blanket.
Another time, our youngest was about 9 years old. The pay at the pump was broken so we went inside to pay for the gas. My son asked if he could buy something. I told him that he could buy one thing for less than $1.00. He couldn't decide between two items. I went to pump the gas and came back in the store. He still couldn't decide. I told him that he needed to make up his mind in two minutes or he would not get either one. Two minutes later, he still hadn't made a decision. I gave him a five second countdown, then calmly told him that time was up, put them both back and leave the store.
Hell broke loose. My son refused to go. Someone said, "Just buy him the candy." I said ,"No." (and thought Hell No, I will never give in to this behavior - this CANNOT pay off) My son started kicking and screaming as I tried to drag him out of the store. He pulled things off the shelves. I ended up on the floor with my legs and arms wrapped around his trying to keep him from damaging anything. I think I said sorry to the startled clerk, but in the excitement, who knows? My son swung his head back smashing me in the mouth and then the chest. Of course, I was burning up with anger, pain, and embarrassment, although outwardly I tried to remain calm. After several minutes, he calmed down enough for me to get him in the car.
As soon as we started to drive away, he calmed himself. The tempest was over as quickly as it began. I told him how angry and embarrassed I was. I told him that kind of behavior would never pay off for him. I told him that is was very unfair for the store, the customers, and the clerk.
He was filled with regret. He begged me to take him back to the store so he could clean up and offer to work to pay for damages. When I could see that he was really sincere, I (with great trepidation) took him back to the store. It had only been about 5 minutes, but the store had already been cleaned up. He tearfully told the clerk that he needed to work to make up for all that he did. He asked how much he could pay her, but she told him that he didn't owe any money.
I can only imagine your reaction if you had witnessed my son's scene. It is humiliating to me even as I write about it. As a matter of fact, my son looked over my shoulder as I wrote this and said, "That never happened." Then he looked down, and said that he wished it had never happened, it was so embarrassing. He apologized again.
I wish that I could say that after this experience, he knew to take me at my word, but once every year or two my sweet, respectful kid will have a meltdown. I don't know when or if it will happen again, but if it does, I would prefer not to have someone look at us and think, "I See Rude People or there goes a permissive parent or there goes someone who doesn't care about their child.
PS well put Spartee and Lovelysoul
Jen at November 29, 2009 4:39 PM
Lovelysoul, you are kickin' butt here-thank you! Amy's in the Statesman, in Austin, home to a huge number of "never tell my kid no" laisse-faire parents. Prepare for a shitstorm!
Anyone is free to comment on parenting (or anything else) at any time. Just know that those of us actually doing what you're commenting on-be it parenting or driving or whatever-will take your ideas with a grain of salt.
momof4 at November 29, 2009 4:58 PM
Thanks, momoffour. And I appreciate your story, Jen. I think all parents can relate. It also demonstrates my point that some days you can look like the best parent, and other days, the worst - often, when you're doing the right thing, as you were.
And, I agree, the hardest part about parenting is that it's relentless. You don't get a break. You can't train them to use a litter pan in the middle of the night, while you get your sleep. You can't leave them for hours, with just some food and water, to go out and have fun.
I don't think non-parents can fully grasp the sheer exhaustion of it. Very few jobs require that sort of sleep deprivation combined with constant attentiveness.
Okay, so you don't feel bad, here's one of my horror stories: my son was around 1 1/2 or 2, and taking swimming lessons (in FL, it's practically mandatory for toddlers). After his lesson, we stayed at the pool so he could practice. He was wearing the required attire - a diaper underneath some plastic pants. There were other people playing and swimming nearby.
Well, he pooped, and somehow the plastic pants didn't hold it in. Suddenly, we saw floating turds everywhere! My husband and I just stared at each other. OMG! What do we do?
In one of his truly better moments, my ex picked up a plastic cup, and went around collecting turds. He did it so discreetly that no one seemed to notice. If they did, they didn't say anything, but I was mortified.
I don't know if we were right or wrong. At least we cleaned it up. Probably should've told the management. I don't know, but one thing's for sure, nothing really prepares you for that stuff. It's not in any books. You can believe you're ready for every event of parenthood, but so much of it is atypical.
lovelysoul at November 29, 2009 5:35 PM
Jen, I can't imagine anyone would have judged you as a bad parent for what happened. You obviously did what you had to do. You removed him from the store and you did not reward his behavior. Please read Amy's original piece again. Never does she say that children are NEVER expected to act badly in public - it's all about what the parents do about it. The going back to apologize was wonderful, especially the fact that he wanted to do it. I don't have these problems with my children, not since they were toddlers. But I have to admit that I had meltdowns like this when I was as old as 9 or 10. I still don't know why. I got punished all of the time, but I don't remember feeling like I could help myself.
KarenW at November 29, 2009 6:05 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/11/29/super_dog_nanny.html#comment-1679661">comment from KarenWThank you, Karen. I think people are reading with emotional blinders on. If you care, if you try to be considerate of others, this is the important thing. See the bit about my neighbors' kids waking me up. It sometimes happens. What matters is that the parents care that they don't, and try to see that they don't.
Amy Alkon at November 29, 2009 6:09 PM
You are right. I have been reading everything with emotional blinders on. I assume that people think that I am a terrible parent because of my child's behavior. Often in an attempt to keep everything low-key, people may not see what actions I am taking to stop or prevent my child's behavior.
I have heard many people assert that a child would not act that way if there was not a payoff or if there was not a history of abuse. The buck stops with the parent - deserved or not.
Hopefully there are people who may understand that parents really are trying - even if the results are not always apparent.
Jen at November 29, 2009 6:29 PM
I love Supernanny so much - her manner is great. I am in awe of the way she calls the parents on things, calmly and respectfully, then also gives gives hope.
It seems like everyone should put down the nappies. No-one's perfect, but please parents/non-parents stop being so judgmental of each others motives. I'm not a mum but that doesn't mean I don't have sympathy for a public meltdown and know that Jen responded perfectly to some typical behavior.
I also don't think I need to me a mother to know that the following scenario is bad parenting. Friend hosted SIL, SIL's husband and their 5yo daughter to Thanksgiving dinner. Daughter had a meltdown and refused to eat anything on the table, insisting that she wanted chicken tenders. What should have happened: mom says 'Auntie went to a lot of trouble to make this lovely meal, I'm sure you'll find something you'll like on the table - but if choose not to eat what's on the table, you're not getting anything else.' What did happen: dad went out and spent some time finding chicken tenders, of which little girl ate one or two.
AntoniaB at November 29, 2009 7:04 PM
"I think attacking somebody this way because you think your attack will remain private is dirty pool."
Hmm... what about encouraging someone to draw them out in a private correspondence, feigning positive interest just so that you can trash them on your blog?
vi at November 29, 2009 7:09 PM
"And, I agree, the hardest part about parenting is that it's relentless. You don't get a break. You can't train them to use a litter pan in the middle of the night, while you get your sleep. You can't leave them for hours, with just some food and water, to go out and have fun.
I don't think non-parents can fully grasp the sheer exhaustion of it. Very few jobs require that sort of sleep deprivation combined with constant attentiveness."
You signed up to be a parent. You made that choice. What, am I supposed to give you a cookie and thank you because you chose to breed? Sorry, no cookies for you.
I might thank you, however, when your child at the age of 25 turns into a productive, taxpaying, law abiding citizen and member of society. Until then, just suck it up and do your job already.
Jen Wading at November 29, 2009 7:12 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/11/29/super_dog_nanny.html#comment-1679677">comment from viOh, please, vi - or are you one of those who raged at me? You don't get "drawn" out in a "private" correspondence to get posted on my blog. You write me one ugly e-mail, filled with nasty stuff about how I'm ugly and a "Nazy" and smell bad, and how no man would want me, etc. That qualifies you -- you do it all by yourself. Then, I write you back.
I don't know about you, but I don't base my behavior on other people's. I have standards and they don't include writing to tell some woman she's ugly, foul-smelling and no man would want her because I happen to disagree with her opinion.
People write that stuff because they think they can do private violence to somebody. Wrong. And they're creeps if they do that. They probably won't stop being creeps, but they'll stop doing the private violence, maybe, because they see it will be exposed.
Were you one of this week's ugly e-mail critics?
Amy Alkon at November 29, 2009 7:35 PM
"I might thank you, however, when your child at the age of 25 turns into a productive, taxpaying, law abiding citizen and member of society. Until then, just suck it up and do your job already."
My son is almost 20, and already what you describe, so I think my job is almost done. But, unfortunately, I don't expect a thank you from people with that attitude....or a cookie. When you do it right, and actually turn out a great kid, then it becomes, "Well, that's what you were SUPPOSED to do anyway."
Parenthood is one of the few jobs where you get maligned if you're doing it "wrong", and, very rarely, get praised for doing it right.
I was just feeling hopeful, because of some of the comments, that people aren't so judgmental - that maybe they do see when a parent is trying, as Jen was. Yet, in reality, I fear that many people still sit in judgment. All they see is the screaming kid in the store, knocking things over, and think, "What a brat!"
The comments on other threads did not instill confidence that most people can look beyond the meltdown, which is disturbing them, long enough to see a good parent at work.
And it is actually this sort of condemnation that causes parents to react the way AntoniaB described. Rather than sticking to their guns and risking that their child might have a meltdown in front of their friends and relatives, they give in, so no one will think their child is awful or ill-behaved...and so they won't disturb anyone.
I don't know for sure, but I suspect it was probably more common in days past for those affected to be more tolerant and supportive of a disciplinary move that might result in a tantrum. My elder relatives would say things like, "Sit him in there and let him cry it out!" People were used to children then, used to the noises children create, and didn't live such insulated lives.
But, today, it's rare when people actually support a parent doing that when it may cause a tantrum. They'll say (as in Jen's case), "Oh, just let him have the candy!..or chicken fingers...or toy...or whatever" Why? Because you're disturbing their peaceful existence, and they don't want to see or hear the child meltdown.
So, modern parents are expected to do a great job, as long as they don't disturb anyone while doing it, which is a pretty tall order. We don't want a cookie for this - just a little respect.
lovelysoul at November 29, 2009 8:04 PM
I miss Seipp's blog... Her posts and comments should have been published on a CD Rom. (Does anyone remember CD Roms? They were form back when computers had little furnaces in the back that you'd drop the coal into.) Seipp went through a round of this. Basically, sending someone an unbidden communique affords no implicit promise of secrecy.
You wanna keep secrets, then that's how you start the conversation. "This is between you and me, OK?" If the person answers with anything other than "Agreed", say no more.
Crid [CridComment @ gmail] at November 29, 2009 8:04 PM
> modern parents are expected to do a
> great job, as long as they don't
> disturb anyone while doing it, which
> is a pretty tall order. We don't want
> a cookie for this - just a little respect.
You don't earn respect for having things expected of you, you earn respect by delivering the goods.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at November 29, 2009 8:08 PM
Parenthood is one of the few jobs where you get maligned if you're doing it "wrong", and, very rarely, get praised for doing it right
Posted by: lovelysoul
Got news for you, that pretty much EVERY job
lujlp at November 29, 2009 8:14 PM
So, modern parents are expected to do a great job, as long as they don't disturb anyone while doing it, which is a pretty tall order. We don't want a cookie for this - just a little respect.
You want respect? Do your job with out fucking it up so badley that members of society feel compleed to react.
Oh wait that was already suggested and you threw a hissy fit.
Lets be honest shall we? You dont want respect, that is earned thru hard work and taking care of responibilites.
No, what you want is wide eyed addmaration for the hard job you have - and not for acctually doing it.
As crid just remarked, you dont get respect for having a job, you get respect for acctually doing the job
lujlp at November 29, 2009 8:21 PM
Crid writes: You don't earn respect for having things expected of you, you earn respect by delivering the goods.
One of the great misconceptions of the age is that "Respect is earned! Huff! Huff!"
No, it isn't. Motorists are entitled to the right of way without having their lives placed under a microscope to find out if they're righteous people or total sleazebags. Your grandparents are entitled to the deference granted to the elderly without being grilled on their ideology.
On the contrary, it is disrespect that is earned. Respect everyone, until they prove they are unworthy of it.
Patrick at November 29, 2009 8:25 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/11/29/super_dog_nanny.html#comment-1679690">comment from Jen Wading"Very few jobs require that sort of sleep deprivation combined with constant attentiveness." You signed up to be a parent. You made that choice. What, am I supposed to give you a cookie and thank you because you chose to breed? Sorry, no cookies for you. I might thank you, however, when your child at the age of 25 turns into a productive, taxpaying, law abiding citizen and member of society. Until then, just suck it up and do your job already.
Jen Wading is exactly right. I'm not cut out to be a parent. I'm impatient, self-involved, and not really interested in children for more than five minutes, and only a few children at that. That's why I don't have children!
If you're not up to the task, you shouldn't either. If you didn't fully investigate the task, well, suck it up, because those are human beings you're raising, and and they have feelings, and the rest of us are going to have to live with these offspring of yours.
PS And the litter box thing -- isn't it great? Perhaps more people -- all of you who are whinging about how hard it is to have a child...or children! (yes, find it hard with one...what to do but put out a few more!)...should consider having Spot instead of Seth.
Amy Alkon at November 29, 2009 8:32 PM
> Motorists are entitled to the
> right of way without having
> their lives placed
> under a microscope
Who's using microscopes? Especially on the road?
Motorists are entitled to the right of way when they're entitled to the right of way: When the light is green, and when they've correctly depolyed their turn signals.
Ain't nuthin' in life for free, and certainly not my respect... You'll pay and pay dearly for what's left of it, because better people than you have already claimed so much.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at November 29, 2009 8:33 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/11/29/super_dog_nanny.html#comment-1679694">comment from Crid [CridComment @ gmail]Seipp went through a round of this. Basically, sending someone an unbidden communique affords no implicit promise of secrecy. You wanna keep secrets, then that's how you start the conversation. "This is between you and me, OK?" If the person answers with anything other than "Agreed", say no more.
Exactly my feeling. Send me an e-mail saying I'm all sorts of this and that, and I'll help you show the world exactly the kind of person you are.
Amy Alkon at November 29, 2009 8:48 PM
"As crid just remarked, you dont get respect for having a job, you get respect for acctually doing the job"
But I HAVE done it. I've raised a child to be a productive, law-abiding, tax-paying, member of society. So, when do I get respect?
That's the thing. There's no point at which a parent's job is quantifiable, like any other job. Your child can be a great success at 25 and on heroin by 30. Last year, the high school valedictorian in our town won a full ride to Brown...then became a meth addict over the summer and blew her opportunity.
How do you classify her parents? Did they do a good job or bad job? Or did it have nothing to do with them?
There's no point where you can know. You're only as good as your child's last success, and as bad as your child's last failure. And this pretty much goes on forever.
lovelysoul at November 29, 2009 8:51 PM
I agree with Patrick's 8:25 statement. Just so everyone knows he and I aren't always on opposite sides of everything.
Amy, I think fewer people should have Spots. I think it's gross your dog uses the potty mere inches from other people on planes. Gross beyond words. If I wanted exposure to dog shit, I'd have a dog. And if I were to pay $500 or more for a ticket for that special exposure (oh, but isn't she cute!!) you and I would have words. Lots of them. It's a DOG. You ship it freight, or don't take it.
"As crid just remarked, you dont get respect for having a job, you get respect for acctually doing the job"
When was the last time you gave respect-actually gave it, as opposed to going on with your life quietly, to the nurse who caught the potentially fatal drug interaction? The pilot who landed you safely? The parent who raised the polite person who didn't cut in front of you in line?? There is no respect for actually doing a job either. We don't expect it. We do expect to NOT be mocked for our calling. Thats all we ask. We respect callings-vocations recognized as a higher calling than most. Nursing. Doctors. Parents. Pastors. That is, I was raised to do so. By great parents. Were you?
momof4 at November 29, 2009 8:55 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/11/29/super_dog_nanny.html#comment-1679700">comment from momof4I think it's gross your dog uses the potty mere inches from other people on planes.
Um, I bring a plastic litterbox (Tupperware!) and take it and her in the bathroom, same place everybody else goes. Believe me, she's far more civilized and well-behaved than many people's children. (They and adults are the ones spraying on the floor and the seat, in case you were wondering.)
I don't ship my dog freight because dogs die that way, because I got a dog that has hair, not fur, so she wouldn't cause trouble for people with allergies, and because my dog, on a flight, is no more noticeable or bothersome than my wallet. (And frankly, she's only slightly bigger.)
Maybe go have a good cry instead of raging about my dog?
Amy Alkon at November 29, 2009 9:01 PM
"feigning positive interest just so that you can trash them on your blog?"
Do tell, what kind of 'positive interest' makes people write the likes of what Amy has posted here? Don't make me laugh, you're trying to say now that she baited people into writing emails calling her all sorts of names and telling her she'll die lonely?
crella at November 29, 2009 9:10 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/11/29/super_dog_nanny.html#comment-1679702">comment from crellaI actually had extended civilized disagreements with a number of people, including a lovely lady in Texas, who'd adopted a Russian baby. We exchanged numerous e-mail and it never crossed my mind to post one -- why would I? Having a difference of opinion isn't the issue, it's presuming e-mail to be a clever form of anonymous attack, and finding out it's best not to presume that when e-mailing somebody who's both nobody's victim and an amateur detective.
Amy Alkon at November 29, 2009 9:18 PM
But I HAVE done it. I've raised a child to be a productive, law-abiding, tax-paying, member of society. So, when do I get respect?
Posted by: lovelysoul
Quick question before we give you respect. Has anyone on this blog yet said you did a bad job as a parent? or that you are an incosiderate ass for not adequatly parenting your offspring? or your children are fuckups and its all your fault?
lujlp at November 29, 2009 9:18 PM
I will refer back to the original post. Amy was incensed because the mother did Nothing.
I keep thinking that perhaps the mother wanted to extinguish her son's negative behavior, so she refused to reward it with attention. Psychologists say that this is the most effective way to change behavior if it is paired with positive attention for good choices.
This is exactly what Amy is doing when she trains her dog.
This method does have some negatives in the short-term. It annoys the heck out of people.
She may have tried to calm him, but it is hard to reason with a two year old who is out of control.
Perhaps mom was just waiting for a break in the crying so that she could tell point out that her son was able to calm himself down like the big boys boys do and give him a hug. Then she could get out the food and explain that she had to wait for him to stop crying because if he is crying he could choke on his food.
So perhaps everything may not be as just it seemed. Mom may have been racking her brain for a way to calm her son down and respect everyone on the plane.
Jen at November 29, 2009 9:27 PM
And yet Jen for all that brain wracking, by her own admission, no less - the mothers brilliant plan, which she even explained to the flight attendent, was to . . .
Wait until the plane took off and HOPE he decided to stop.
Sound more like she was planing a big 'go fuck yerselves' to everyone on the plane
lujlp at November 29, 2009 9:35 PM
Patrick says, "One of the great misconceptions of the age is that 'Respect is earned! Huff! Huff!'"
Patrick, you're conflating two meanings of "respect." The one others intended is a synonym of "esteem, value the judgement of." The one you exemplified with the right-of-way example means "show deference appropriate to the social context."
You are right that it is not necessary to earn the second kind, but you are wrong about the first.
My late Uncle C. was a wise and charming man; his wife, V., was foolish and irritating. I would sometimes ask his advice and usually follow it, but not hers. Yet I treated them both with the same courtesy. That is to say, I respected Aunt V. in your sense of the word, but not in the other.
Axman at November 29, 2009 9:48 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/11/29/super_dog_nanny.html#comment-1679718">comment from JenI keep thinking that perhaps the mother wanted to extinguish her son's negative behavior, so she refused to reward it with attention.
Perhaps an interesting exercise in one's own backyard.
We can speculate about mom's intentions from here to Amarillo, but her actions say she could give a bent damn about anybody but herself.
Why so compelled to leap to her defense, and so inventively, too?
When a guy cuts you off in traffic and flips you the bird, do you run through a similar line of "What if"s?
Amy Alkon at November 29, 2009 9:51 PM
> So, when do I get respect?
People are harassing you for your well-behaved, industrious, thoughtful children? Wow, you're on a tough planet! Nightmare! I have no suggestions; you're fucked, doomed.
> There's no point at which a parent's
> job is quantifiable, like any
> other job.
There's a kind of a Simone de Beauvoir / Betty Fridan / Glen Campbell thing going on here... You keep comparing motherhood to other life paths, conjuring new phrases to describe the relative compensation yet to be dispensed to you. Um, proper consideration of these reflections exceeds the scope of our topic tonight.
_________________________________
> he and I aren't always on opposite
> sides of everything.
Trust me, there was never any doubt.
> When was the last time you gave
> respect-actually gave it, as
> opposed to going on with
> your life quietly
Going on with my life quietly is giving respect. Other people are not crawling through their days in desperation for my cuddly, intimate gestures of spiritual affirmation.
> to the nurse who caught the potentially
> fatal drug interaction? The pilot who
> landed you safely?
These are positions of profound responsibility for which properly dispassionate practitioners are well compensated... Their earnings are their "respect". If a nurse said "Your doctor almost killed you with that prescription, but I caught the bungle", or a pilot said "The airline had no business insisting on an on-time landing during this hurricane, but I got us down", I'd call my lawyer nephews. Speed dial. I'd greet them with "File, NOW!"
Meantime, my life is all, all about eye contact and suitable courtesies.
> The parent who raised the polite
> person who didn't cut in front
> of you in line??
So, that double Q-mark is like a joke, right? You're acknowledging that these matters aren't on a continuum, right?
> I was raised to do so.
I don't blow the Starbucks barista for getting just-the-right amount of foam on my latte, if that's what you mean. (Those people get health insurance, you know.)
_______________________________
Some people here seem to want public life to be a series of personalized, comforting avouchments of inner worth and basic human dignity. The rest of us had our childish needs answered as children, and will be content to be treated as adults today.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at November 29, 2009 10:14 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/11/29/super_dog_nanny.html#comment-1679723">comment from Crid [CridComment at gmail]Some people here seem to want public life to be a series of personalized, comforting avouchments of inner worth and basic human dignity. The rest of us had our childish needs answered as children, and will be content to be treated as adults today.
Two very well-put sentences.
Amy Alkon at November 29, 2009 10:19 PM
PS, and thanks for asking—
Actually, my favorite airline landing was in this airplane. She's called "Island of Viti Levu", and it was a return trip to LAX (pictured) from a 1996 scuba trip in Fiji. The vacation had been the best of my life theretofore, a glorious adventure, but the flight itself went on and on, something like 13 or 15 hours. I was prepared for a jarring return to American coarseness and hurriedness.... But our pilot gave us a landing that was one of the great wonders in the history of kinetics. Note that the burly beast is not just a 747, the largest craft then in the sky, but the expanded "400" variant.
He dropped that thing onto the tarmac with a gentle, silent elegance that I recall whenever I sit in a well-proportioned and properly-cushioned chair... At the time I imagined a single feather landing atop a down pillow filled with its mute cousin feathers. Today I think of your first GOOD kiss as a teenager, when you've learned that there's no rush and you're trying to build something with that first, soft contact of billowy lips. It was magnificent. Welcome home, dude.
Moments later, he was on the intercom... "Ah, folks, afraid we've got some extra traffic around the terminal, and the tower has asked us to taxi for awhile, we should be at the gate in about 15 minutes. Meanwhile, please keep your seatbelts fastened and...."
He had been robbed.
I saw him at the bottom of the stairs from the cockpit deck on the way out. He looked like a car had hit his puppy. I winked at him and he smiled back. He knew that I knew.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at November 29, 2009 10:25 PM
Other people are not crawling through their days in desperation for my cuddly, intimate gestures of spiritual affirmation.
Wondering if I should make some "blood from a stone" comment or just say, "That's for damn sure!"
Patrick at November 30, 2009 2:28 AM
lovelysoul and Jen sound thoughtful but I think somewhat misdirected in their ire here. No one is suggesting that society condemn the parent whose child has an accident in the pool (so long as they are appropriately mortified and take steps to fix the situation and see that it doesn't happen again, as lovelysoul and her husband did) or the one who firmly sticks to her guns with an unruly child (because she removed him from the scene rather than subject the other patrons to his performance). The ones who should rightfully be criticized are those who are clearly raising entitled, inconsiderate little people who are going to spend the rest of their lives thinking that there's nothing wrong with expecting someone to go out on Thanksgiving for you and get chicken tenders.
CB at November 30, 2009 2:39 AM
"has an accident in the pool"? Bill Murray from Caddyshack is coming to mind.
Patrick at November 30, 2009 3:05 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/11/29/super_dog_nanny.html#comment-1679755">comment from CBCB is exactly right. The fact that your kid poos in the pool isn't a sign of bad parenting. (As they say, shit happens.)
And it's this: "The ones who should rightfully be criticized are those who are clearly raising entitled, inconsiderate little people who are going to spend the rest of their lives thinking that there's nothing wrong with expecting someone to go out on Thanksgiving for you and get chicken tenders."
The problem is, again, all these mommies are seeing this through their emotions instead of their reason. Look at the rage about my tiny dog and the assumptions that were made. Again, she goes in the bathroom, same as other passengers -- except for those who wet the seat, and don't think it doesn't happen. (Not by Lucy, of course.)
Amy Alkon at November 30, 2009 5:33 AM
I don't need a good cry, it's not that time of the month. What, praytell, do you do with the feces-filled tupperware to ensure-ENSURE, darn you-that it never bothers anyone else? That it can't possibly fall out of your bag during turbulance and open.
Sure, you could dump the poo in the toilet, and wash the tupperware out in the sink, but then you're putting doggy feces in a sink where people wash hands. You have no good solution to ensure you pose not the slightest chance of inconveniencing others with her poo. So irresponsible.
Plus, and I'm thinking you must not know this-most animal allergies are to the dander, not the fur. You are filling the plane with her dander, which will be there for many flights to come. But you can't ship your dog freight, you say, she might die, so you have to inconvenience others with her? Well, maybe she needs to stay home. Or get boarded. It's your dog, it's your responsibility to make sure it doesn't bother others.
But it's always others seeing through their emotions, right Amy, not you! Look at all the hate about your tiny dog! Cause heaven forbid that others point out the areas in which you yourself do what you want to do whether it effects others or not. I don't care much for dogs, but love cats. Neither belong in enclosed public spaces. They're animals, and some people just find that gross. Or allergenic. Hair or no.
momof4 at November 30, 2009 6:44 AM
"Some people here seem to want public life to be a series of personalized, comforting avouchments of inner worth and basic human dignity. The rest of us had our childish needs answered as children, and will be content to be treated as adults today."
There's a difference between wanting avouchments, and just not wanting parents to be unfairly criticized. As I said, I don't expect a big old, "thank you" for raising a nice, ethical child.
But what I'm saying is that there were plenty of people, along the way, who probably didn't think he was going to turn out well, or that I was a "good" parent because of their own rash judgments.
As Spartee said, you get the kid you get at the beginning and no one can see what you started out with. Many people get easygoing children, with compliant dispositions, that they barely need to parent at all.
The deviant, spirited child is the tough one, and often, the more you punish, the worse they get. A good parent will learn to pick their battles. You simply cannot have a power struggle over every little incident.
As contrary as it is to old-school parenting, I actually discovered the more control I gave my son, the better behaved he became. For instance, rather than battle over what he was going to wear every day (which had become a morning nightmare), I finally gave in and let him pick out his own clothes.
So, he went to school, in the dead of winter, in shorts and short-sleeves, with non-matching colors. I figured, based on many books about disciplinary techniques, that he'd learn from this. In a few days, he'd realize the consequence of choosing inappropriate clothing because he'd get cold. Wrong. He never did. He dressed himself this way every winter through preschool and beyond.
It's a mystery to this day why he doesn't feel cold, like others do, but he doesn't.
And I wish I could say other parents, and the public, in general, "got" my methodology, but I'm sure many thought I was either neglectful or wussy for letting my son make his clothing choices.
I don't regret it because I had bigger issues to reserve my parental authority for, but it's just another example of how not "appearing" like a good parent isn't always what it seems.
You can't take any one moment of parenting that you witness and predict the outcome. You're only seeing one battle - you can't predict the war.
Although, I understand why everyone believes the parents shouldn't have bought the chicken fingers, the fact that they gave in on that one issue, to avoid a meltdown, does NOT mean their daughter is going to grow up into an entitled, selfish brat.
She may or may not, but if she does, it will be after a cumulative effect of many bad parental decisions and life events, not just one.
And, the fact is, that kids usually learn to appreciate holiday dinners on their own. It's not like she's going to demand chicken fingers every year from here on out.
My son eventually learned to match colors and today he's a pretty fine dresser...albeit without enough sweaters or jackets for my taste.
lovelysoul at November 30, 2009 7:02 AM
ooops, I meant "defiant" not deviant. Always misspell that.
lovelysoul at November 30, 2009 7:10 AM
You insure your car, house, etc. You assure a person. You ensure everything else. Momof4 is correct in her use. Just thought I'd throw in a useful mnemonic.
Regarding Amy's dog, you place the onus on the wrong agency. If you're concerned about pet dander affecting future passengers, I would say that's the airline's responsibility. They should either steam clean or place a "No dogs allowed" rule in place.
And before you make some kind of comparison to suggesting that the restaurant should keep unruly children in place, I would counter that it is unreasonable to make sure that a pet doesn't drop a single piece of dander. It is not unreasonable to expect that parents make their children be quiet. Moreover, it's very unreasonable to assume that the restaurant should speak to your children.
When I go to a hotel, I'm not expected to dust when I leave, even though the dust that gets added to the room during my stay is my own dead skin flaking off. But what about any dust sensitive people who may visit the hotel in the future? That's the hotel's responsibility, not mine. My fee covers their cleaning.
Patrick at November 30, 2009 7:24 AM
If the meltdown was over an everyday meal then I might think it odd or inadvisable but shrug my shoulders and not give it much thought. Although if it were family in my home I would like to be given the choice of living with a meltdown or not. Perhaps don't presume how I feel about meltdowns.
The problem with her being allowed chicken tenders on *Thanksgiving* is that it gives her license to disrespect. My parents would never have allowed me to be so rude when someone had gone to so much trouble to cook a meal. I was expected to acknowledge that someone had made such an effort. Doesn't mean I always showed appreciation - children are all about themselves. But my parents, quite rightly, would not sanction such disrespect. The fact that this girl's parents didn't hold the respect line, is what is memorable about this case. It's about respect and that's an important line to hold. In fact, I think it is an paramount battle to pick.
AntoniaB at November 30, 2009 7:25 AM
Possibly, AntoniaB. I don't believe it's THAT big a deal for a 5 yr old. I mean, at least in determining her future behavior or whether or not she will show her relatives respect for the meal they've made when she's 10 or 15.
I think we start too early on these things. She won't remember this (though you will, and will be watching her every holiday from now on for signs of disrespect, as you've labeled her a potentially "bad" child).
One of the things experience teaches parents is that some kids can be very poorly behaved at 5 and wonderful at 13, and vice versa. They go through multiple stages.
New parents, and non-parents, tend to think every little misbehavior in early childhood has to MEAN something...that it must predict future behavior It doesn't. After the first child, parents start to realize that and lighten up.
All it means is that she's 5 and wants chicken tenders, and isn't yet cognizant of all the work involved in making turkey dinner (and she likely won't be until she's 25 making her own first holiday meal).
Her parents could've made her sit in a room, have a meltdown, and starve to make a point, on what is supposed to be a close, family bonding holiday, but they obviously decided it wasn't worth making this a "teaching moment" at the expense of everyone's else's enjoyment.
It's just not that big a deal. The fact that you are still criticizing the parents, 5 days later, is what is bothersome.
lovelysoul at November 30, 2009 7:58 AM
"Neither belong in enclosed public spaces."
Unruly and ill-behaved children don't belong in enclosed public spaces, either.
I'll tell you, I've had my ire raised more times by a kid kicking the back of my seat whose parent does nothing to correct the behavior than by a little dog on an airplane. I dare say that experience is common to many people writing on this board.
"...but then you're putting doggy feces in a sink where people wash hands." You do realize that
1.) fecal organisms are among the most common microbes found on human hands and
2.) sinks are precisely for the washing of hands (or tupperware in Amy's case). I wouldn't be expecting an airline sink to be held up to the same standards as I would a sink in a restaurant's kitchen.
Jen Wading at November 30, 2009 8:26 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/11/29/super_dog_nanny.html#comment-1679788">comment from Jen Wading..but then you're putting doggy feces in a sink where people wash hands.
The truth is, my dog has NEVER gone to the bathroom on the plane. I just take her in there in case she really has to go and can't wait. If she did drop one of her tiny, tootsie-roll-sized poops I'd probably just grab some toilet paper and do as humans do...pick up the poop in it, drop it in the toilet, and flush.
Look, you had kids, I'm sorry it's hard, but that's the nature of being a parent. Doesn't work for you, use the diaphragm as intended, don't turn it into a frisbee and throw it across the bedroom.
PS With the flu and colds going around, I wear gloves to stores these days -- little deep cherry red ones I got in Paris in the 80s -- so when I sign using their automated machine I'm not touching other people's possibly flu-germ-laden surface.
Amy Alkon at November 30, 2009 8:35 AM
I don't think every little misdemeanor necessarily means something for the future and I'd venture that other non-parents don't either. I've often been known to shrug and say - it'll all come out in the wash. Please don't be so condescending - those of us without children don't exactly live in a bubble and have young family/friends whom we watch grow up. I've been with friends as their kids go though difficult patches it happens and mostly they grow out of it. Basically it was unfortunate that the little girl had a meltdown at this time, but from the moment of meltdown, 'close, family bonding holiday' was going to be on a slightly different path whichever way the parents chose to deal with it. (After all, the father missed most of the meal - he didn't get any family bonding). Communication from the parents about their motives and choices would also have gone a long way.
As you point out, you need to pick your battles. I thoroughly agree this is the case and I also believe that you should be consistent with these battles. To me chickentendergate was about respect. Even if a child is only five and doesn't know better I still think she's old enough to be told how she's being disrespectful. Respect is a battle I believe always needs to be be fought. That's why I think it actually is a big deal. You can read it another way but I don't think my reading is without merit and others, including some mothers out there, do think it is a big deal.
AntoniaB at November 30, 2009 8:47 AM
AntoniaB, I'm glad you see that parents need to pick their battles. I suspect that, no matter what these parents did, someone would've been critical. If they'd let her meltdown, some would've clucked, "Did you hear that little Suzie scream? What a brat!"
Having chosen to handle it the way they did, they are critcized for:
a) not seizing upon this as an ideal teaching moment, even though it would've disrupted Thansgiving dinner for everyone else to make this all about a 5 yr old (which they surely would've been criticized for, as well - their child-centric attitude).
b) not giving the HOSTESS the option of weighing in on a parental decision ("Although if it were family in my home I would like to be given the choice of living with a meltdown or not.")
c) not properly explaining their parental choice to everyone there ("Communication from the parents about their motives and choices would also have gone a long way.")
Geeze. Cut them some slack! I'm sure this was a very uncomfortable moment for them. Either way they might've gone, they were bound to displease someone, and it's ridiculous to expect that they should consult and explain their choices, belaboring the whole affair.
They are the parents. They know their child better than you, or the hostess, or anyone else there.
lovelysoul at November 30, 2009 9:13 AM
I think certain words are demeaning. Take, for instance "squeeze", or, I believe, often Amy has used the much worse, "spit"...as in "spit a child out"....like anyone can do it, so there's nothing special or unique about being a parent.
But that is the point, any fertil woman can do it. Giving birth is not a specialized skill...it is an evolutionary instinct.
I just think more respectful language could be used, so you'd get a more respectful debate.
Does this sound better?
Fertility does not a good parent make.
JulieW at November 30, 2009 9:18 AM
I agree with that, JulieW. In fact, as an adopted child, I know that a mother need not spit out anything to be a mother. But it's still disprectful language to describe what most parents regard as a special moment. There's just no need to antagonize parents that way.
lovelysoul at November 30, 2009 9:24 AM
Look not all parents know their kids best and not all non-parents are useless. If parents knew their kids best then no parent would be calling Supernanny. Some kids some turn out well in spite of their parents and some kids turn out poorly in spite of their parents. Some stepfathers are better than the birth father. It's not all cut and dried. In fact, that's my overarching point - there's not one right and one wrong way.
It seems we have different approaches: Mine includes *communication* over difficult moments (It can be later when everything is calm again). I find that this really helps people be friendly to your parental choices (whether or not they agree) - and this is where the context of the child is helpful. Perhaps I over-communicate, who knows, but I find that the more people are able to wear your shoes the sympathetic and empathetic they are.
We see chickenfingergate through a different lens. To me it's about respect, you see it as no big deal.
I haven't smacked down your approach yet somehow you seem to feel the need to assert that there's one right and one wrong.
AntoniaB at November 30, 2009 9:35 AM
"even though it would've disrupted Thansgiving dinner for everyone else to make this all about a 5 yr old"
If this is your concern, how can you defend a dinner guest leaving (during dinner!) to get fast food for the child? They disrupted the meal. They made it all about a child, rather than the kind and generous efforts of the host. Five is most definitely old enough to know that when someone goes to the trouble of inviting you over for a home-cooked meal and you accept, you politely enjoy what is offered. lovelysoul, you usually seem like such a reasonable and thoughtful person - I really don't see why you think this blatantly disrespectful behavior is remotely okay.
CB at November 30, 2009 9:42 AM
Parenthood is one of the few jobs where you get maligned if you're doing it "wrong", and, very rarely, get praised for doing it right.
Every corporate job I've ever had worked that way. You get screamed at and threatened if you don't perform at the moving standards, and get an 'it's about time' when you meet or exceed expectations.
The comments on other threads did not instill confidence that most people can look beyond the meltdown, which is disturbing them, long enough to see a good parent at work.
Why do you care what strangers think of your parenting skills? If you are doing a good job, why does it matter?
Because you're disturbing their peaceful existence, and they don't want to see or hear the child meltdown.
But when possible, that child and his/her meltdown should be removed from public space. I'm not upset that a child has a meltdown. I'm upset when a child has a meltdown and the parents do NOTHING about it. That is the issue on the table.
ast year, the high school valedictorian in our town won a full ride to Brown...then became a meth addict over the summer and blew her opportunity.
How do you classify her parents? Did they do a good job or bad job? Or did it have nothing to do with them?
How did they react to the child's bad decisions? Are they supporting said meth addict or are they forcing that child's hand so that he/she will get help? Everyone makes bad decisions. I judge those friends and loved ones based upon whether they enable those bad decisions or refuse to tolerate them.
We respect callings-vocations recognized as a higher calling than most. Nursing. Doctors. Parents. Pastors. That is, I was raised to do so. By great parents. Were you?
This is the crux of the issue. Parents don't want repect. They don't want freedom to do their chosen job to the best of their abilities. They want awe and admiration...even when the kid is screaming in my ear and sticking ketchup covered fingers through my hair (it happened at an IHOP once). Why do your procreational decisions deserve more admiration than anyone elses?
-Julie
JulieW at November 30, 2009 9:44 AM
CB - you are so right. This little girl is apparently generally seen in the family as indulged and willful. She's not a bad kid and I hear she is warm and funny and loving but she constantly throws tantrums until she gets what she wants ... which she invariably does.
I'm sure this will all work itself out in the end because she's basically a good kid. But I feel that this is going to be a more difficult path for her than it needs to be. I hope I'm wrong on that.
AntoniaB at November 30, 2009 9:53 AM
"I haven't smacked down your approach yet somehow you seem to feel the need to assert that there's one right and one wrong. "
No, I'm not saying there's one right and one wrong. I personally would never have gotten the chicken fingers. I would've taken her outside, probably out to the car, so she wouldn't disturb anyone, and once she calmed down, explained exactly what you would've wanted explained - that people went to a lot of trouble to make dinner, and this is what we're having to eat.
I'm not saying your approach is bad. In fact, it is probably the best approach. But, since I don't know the child - only the one situation - I'm not willing to fault the parents for not choosing this one battle.
Parents need to choose their teachimg moments too. I think everyone here would agree that a crowded plane is not the time to try out the "ignoring his screams will teach him I won't be attentive to them" theory. That is a method you test out in private, and hopefully, perfect before going out in public. And, you may need to break it entirely if your child becomes disruptive. In a tight space, you may need to give in to what he/she wants, so as not to inconvenience everyone else. You can worry about reconditioning that message later.
The same choice could be made at a holiday gathering - to spare everyone. However, if she is constantly indulged, then I agree her parents are setting themselves up for a much harder time.
lovelysoul at November 30, 2009 10:19 AM
lovelysoul writes: I think we start too early on these things.
Five is not too early. At age five, children are left places, such as schools, daycare, etc., where parents will not be there to monitor their behavior. That means manners have to be taught before that happens. A babysitter is something else. They're expected to deal with the occasional brattiness, but in places where the child is expected to attend regularly without mommy and daddy, you teach them manners. And I don't mean eating with the right fork, and drinking tea with the pinkie extended, I mean, "Please," "Thank you," and sharing. If they're old enough to converse, they're old enough to learn manners.
Bringing Chicken McNuggets to someone's Thanksgiving Dinner and consuming them in lieu of the meal is over-the-top rudeness. At five, they can and should be taught to understand this. A Thanksgiving dinner is a feast of days preparation. You don't insult the host by telling them you're not even going to try their meal and don't give a rat's ass about how long it took.
At five, they can be expected to go to someone's prepared Thanksgiving dinner and conduct themselves like polite company. I'm not suggesting that during the course of the day, they won't fall down and hurt themselves, or get into minor scrapes with other children, but they are expected to eat what the grownups are eating. Surely there would be something at a Thanksgiving dinner that wouldn't turn their stomachs.
Had someone done that to me at a Thanksgiving dinner I prepared, you can be sure they will require other arrangements for future holidays.
Patrick at November 30, 2009 10:24 AM
Thanks. I respect what you've said there.
AntoniaB at November 30, 2009 10:26 AM
I mean to say I respect Patrick and Lovelysoul. I agree wholeheartedly with Patrick (hey - how about that ;-). But I do respect the thinking behind Lovelysoul. It's a choice that aims to be respectful (even if it's one I think is wrongheaded).
AntoniaB at November 30, 2009 10:32 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/11/29/super_dog_nanny.html#comment-1679811">comment from AntoniaBshe constantly throws tantrums until she gets what she wants
I would never have done this -- throw tantrums -- because it not only wouldn't have been effective, it would have been the utter antithesis of effective for getting me what I wanted...assuming what I was going after wasn't being grounded until age 40.
Amy Alkon at November 30, 2009 10:39 AM
I just have to respond to the chicken finger debate. Food is probably the area that I am the most lax as a parent. 90% of the time I do give my kids what they want to eat. Not a good move on my part, because it just caused them to be even pickier eaters. But I just can't imagine what would have happened if I would have went out to get them McDonald's or whatever on Thanksgiving, which was hosted by my parents. My parents would have cut me a new asshole if I would have done that! My kids did not eat much, but they understand that Grandma made this meal and they would not want to hurt her feelings.
KarenW at November 30, 2009 10:55 AM
You know, AntoniaB, you might try to talk with them about it, in a polite way, of course. I don't think any child expert would recommend going out and getting the chicken nuggets.
If a parent brought chicken nuggets because they know their child is going through some phase where all they'll eat is chicken nuggets...then...maybe. But, even that is probably not advisable. Kids go through weird food phases, but parents still need to insist they try other foods.
I used to be in the yacht chartering business and a chef once told me of a guest whose child would only eat all white foods (mashed potatoes, rice, pasta...but nothing that wasn't the color "white"). His parents indulged this, even through it presented quite a challenge for the chef over a two week cruise. That is still, to me, one of the worst stories of parental indulgence I've ever heard.
lovelysoul at November 30, 2009 11:03 AM
Thanks Lovelysoul, much appreciated thoughts.
I could go on a rant about how this is the only country where food for children is separate from the adults and how somehow Indian children get along fine with spicy ... but I suspect I've done enough ranting for one day ;-).
AntoniaB at November 30, 2009 11:16 AM
I'd rant with you on that. Not to mention, it's such garbage - chemical nuggets and artificial colored everything. Then we wonder why our kids have learning and behavioral problems.
lovelysoul at November 30, 2009 11:21 AM
Regarding ChickenFingerGate - and kids eating what the adults are eating, in general - I'm of the opinion they can either eat with the family or not at all. No one, if given three opportunities to eat per day, is going to die of starvation.
Anne at November 30, 2009 11:32 AM
Oh, please, vi - or are you one of those who raged at me?
NO
You don't get "drawn" out in a "private" correspondence to get posted on my blog. You write me one ugly e-mail, filled with nasty stuff about how I'm ugly and a "Nazy" and smell bad, and how no man would want me, etc. That qualifies you -- you do it all by yourself. Then, I write you back.
>> I did write you once and didn't call you ugly. You posted my email on your blog and called me "stupid" and "deluded". All of your regulars chimed in with "Yeah, you're stupid!" It was a setup.
I don't know about you, but I don't base my behavior on other people's. I have standards and they don't include writing to tell some woman she's ugly, foul-smelling and no man would want her because I happen to disagree with her opinion.
>> Actually you do trash people who disagree with you.
People write that stuff because they think they can do private violence to somebody. Wrong. And they're creeps if they do that. They probably won't stop being creeps, but they'll stop doing the private violence, maybe, because they see it will be exposed.
>> Most of the emails you post now do seem below the belt. But you land as many low blows as you receive and then you crow about how good you are to your fans.
>> Why do I continue to read this? Well, this blog posting had a lot of folks who had much to say. I learn from them and sometimes from you, as long as I stay away from your hot buttons.
Were you one of this week's ugly e-mail critics?
NO
vi at November 30, 2009 11:37 AM
@ Lovelysoul
Not that Amy needs defending, because she is a big girl, but I really think that your offense to the word "squeeze" is unnecessary. She isn't trivializing the great responsibility of parenting, but merely stating that all a person has to do to become a parent is to give birth (or supply the necessary ingredients if you will.)
Yeah that is a painful and oftentimes extensively long process, but a relatively small part of being a parent. She states it like this because, as she has said over and over, just because you have a child doesn't mean you are a parent.
So just because she hasn't birthed someone, like those irresponsible 14 year olds, doesn't mean she is clueless about raising children. Yeah she may not know everything, but what parent does even after having raised one or even five?
MizB at November 30, 2009 12:09 PM
>> I did write you once and didn't call you ugly. You posted my email on your blog and called me "stupid" and "deluded". All of your regulars chimed in with "Yeah, you're stupid!" It was a setup.
-vi
Ever stop to consider it wasnt a setup? that you are indeed stupid a deluded?
lujlp at November 30, 2009 12:14 PM
"Look, you had kids, I'm sorry it's hard, but that's the nature of being a parent."
Hard sometimes, joyous others. Parents-and parenting-do get slammed frequently here. You seem to respect your parents, so I doubt you tell your mom she deserves nothing from you for spitting you out and keeping you quiet for 18 years. I doubt you'd let anyone say that to her. Yet you say that to pretty much every other parent on earth.
I don't give a rats ass what strangers think about me and my parenting. I care what people I respect think. I get full stars there. My daughter's kinder teacher wishes she could clone me and my kid, and seeks me out to say so regularly. However I will call others out on their parent-bashing.
momof4 at November 30, 2009 12:15 PM
Momof4 I don't exactly see why you're so upset. No-one is parent bashing. We just think people are people and sometimes people/parents aren't doing themselves any favours. I think you're forgetting, for example, that most everyone (parents and non-parents) jumped in to commend Jen on her parenting when her son had his meltdown in the store.
It seems to me that some of the parents are coming in loaded for bear. In a sense I can understand this - it must be a difficult job. It's easy to remember the negative but please don't over-focus on that.
AntoniaB at November 30, 2009 12:29 PM
Amy, Tampa Bay Times ran your column. I wonder if it's parent paper, the St. Petersburg Times, did as well. In any case, TBT only had one letter regarding it, a naysayer, so I wrote a response to it. It's in your mailbox now.
Patrick at November 30, 2009 12:45 PM
AntoniaB, this parenting debate has gone on for several days and several different threads, so a lot has been said that isn't in this particular thread.
I do agree with momof4, that there is often parent-bashing here. Perhaps, that's too strong a term - I would probably decribe is as more of a dismissive tone, like it's an easy job if you just do it "right" (meaning according to Amy's philosophy).
Even the nature of this thread is kind of saying, "Hey, look, it's as easy as training a dog. If I can train Lucy, you have no excuse not raising a well-behaved, disturbance-free child".
It's insulting. Children aren't dogs, and parenting isn't like having a dog. Dogs are bred to please, whereas children are trying to become independent and assert their own will from the day they're born.
lovelysoul at November 30, 2009 12:48 PM
Fair enough Lovelysoul.
AntoniaB at November 30, 2009 12:50 PM
I don't think the prevailing attitude is that parenting's "an easy job if you just do it right." I think the attitude is more like "Regardless of how hard the job is, you have to do it."
Patrick at November 30, 2009 1:03 PM
"I don't think the prevailing attitude is that parenting's "an easy job if you just do it right." I think the attitude is more like "Regardless of how hard the job is, you have to do it."
Well, obviously, we know that, so it goes without saying. But I disagree. I think the prevailing attitude is often that it's easy, and that anybody can do it. Or it's "shut up and do it!" (when we ARE doing it and HAVE done it).
There's a rudeness towards parents I have rarely seen directed at any other calling.
lovelysoul at November 30, 2009 1:49 PM
Or it's "shut up and do it!" (when we ARE doing it and HAVE done it).
There's a rudeness towards parents I have rarely seen directed at any other calling.
For me this comes back to the hubris many parents used when describing that subset of their lives. Somehow choosing to procreate isn't a personal decision, it is a calling right up with a religious vocation that should be respected and worshiped by everyone within the splash-zone and beyond. Even you described it as a 'calling'. I'm more than willing to engage in kindness to those that are struggling, and I have. However, I don't see procreation as a 'calling' any more than I see being a mechanic or a lawyer a 'calling'. I don't hold anyone in higher regard because they chose to forgo birth control or suffered a birth control failure any more than I expect to be highly regarded because I refused the burden of offspring.
If a person takes on that job and does it well, I will give them as much admiration as I give anyone who excels at a task. However, producing offspring, either through choice or mistake does not win my veneration.
-Julie
JulieW at November 30, 2009 2:13 PM
Well, I changed "profession" to "calling" because I figured THAT would get criticism. "It's not a "profession"...you don't need an education or a degree...." Another example of the lack of respect and how parents are ridiculed no matter what we say.
Some would claim it's not a "job" either, since you don't get paid. What shall we call it, then? A "situation"...an "existence"...a "reproductive state"? Let's figure another way we can demean parenthood by not even giving it a status.
Many of us do consider it our calling. We always knew we would parents the same way some know they'll be doctors or engineers. Being a parent is one of the most important roles on earth. Nothing I have ever done - or will ever do - is more important.
lovelysoul at November 30, 2009 2:36 PM
Well, obviously, we know that, so it goes without saying. But I disagree. I think the prevailing attitude is often that it's easy, and that anybody can do it. Or it's "shut up and do it!" (when we ARE doing it and HAVE done it).
There's a rudeness towards parents I have rarely seen directed at any other calling.
Posted by: lovelysoul
And the reason for such rudness you ask? Its becuase the ones arguing with us are a bunch of morons.
Really lovelysoul? Howmany people have posted on thise thread that having a chld doesnt make you an expert? And yet you claim we said its easy.
The propblem with parents is they have a heard mentaility - you insult one(doent matter what kind of monumnetal fuckup they are either) and its like a personal attack on all of you.
Just notice lovelysoul, momof4 - the only people lumping you in with the degenerate parets is yourselves. Get over it. My critacism f a woman who lives with drug dealers and winds up dead has nothing to do with you. My critacisim of a woman who allows her child you yell so loudly over and over to the point where the crew kicks them off the plane has nothing to do with you.
Sadly the fact that you think it does says far more about the type of people you are then the type of people we are.
You arent so special that everything we say is also subtly pointed at you as well. You dont matter that much. And even though you think you do, we dont care that much about you
lujlp at November 30, 2009 2:38 PM
Some would claim it's not a "job" either, since you don't get paid. What shall we call it, then?
I would call it a role. Just like I cannot call being a 'wife' a job, being a mother is the same.
Also, being a parent could be considered a job, as it is a task.
Being a parent is one of the most important roles on earth. Nothing I have ever done - or will ever do - is more important.
Why is being a parent more important than the mechanic that fixes your car or the guy who mows your lawn, or the teenager that cooks your french fries, or the researcher finding the cure for cancer? All of these roles/jobs are requirements of our society as it is currently configured. Why should motherhood/fatherhood require worship from every person within proximity? You aren't the Virgin Mary or Zod, why should I kneel before you?
I'm not saying that you shouldn't get respect, but why do your life decisions require any more respect, consideration, and appreciation than anyone elses?
-Julie
-Julie
JulieW at November 30, 2009 2:50 PM
"Just notice lovelysoul, momof4 - the only people lumping you in with the degenerate parets is yourselves."
That's because we "get" it - we relate to them. We know what that parent is going through - on an airplane, in a restaurant, or at a family gathering - and so we know they aren't necessarily "degenerate parents". We hate hearing them labeled that way.
Unlike those without children, experienced parents typically respond to misbehaviors and embarrassing meltdowns with some expression of "Been there/done that" or "There, but for the grace of God, go I." We know that either has been us, or could be us.
As a GAL, I've dealt with true degenerate parents - people who abuse and neglect their children. Those are the ones worthy of harsh criticism.
Parents who just have wrongheaded ideas, like chickengate, or find themselves on a plane with a crying baby, are not degenerates. They're usually good people, having bad moments, and they just don't know how to handle them. Rather than criticism, they need compassion and perhaps a little help. That's all we're saying.
Yet, if a parent is purposely allowing a child to be rude - for instance, kicking your seat repeatedly and not trying to stop them - then they are being rude too. I agree that kind of obliviousness doesn't deserve compassion.
lovelysoul at November 30, 2009 3:16 PM
"Why is being a parent more important than the mechanic that fixes your car or the guy who mows your lawn, or the teenager that cooks your french fries, or the researcher finding the cure for cancer?"
Because parents raised them all, and hopefully taught them ethics. Without us doing our job well, the mechanic will overbill you, the lawn mower won't show up, the teen will spit in your fries, and the researcher will sell out to Big Pharma.
lovelysoul at November 30, 2009 3:21 PM
Actually not all people were raised by parents. Some people were raised by an uncle or a teacher or a big sister ... or even raised himself. Certainly parents are overwhelmingly the people who are primarily responsible for shaping the child but often they're not. The reality is that you have no idea who made the person a good citizen in a very real 'it takes a village' sense.
AntoniaB at November 30, 2009 3:29 PM
"There's a rudeness towards parents I have rarely seen directed at any other calling."
Take a good hard look at what you just wrote and perhaps you might be able to fathom why. There is so much presumption, entitlement, and pompousness in that little statement.
First of all, you expect some form of respect that you feel you've earned because you chose to reproduce. Beyond getting respect from your kids (which I hope you do) I don't know where you presume that you should get it from the rest of society simply because you decided to reproduce. Being a parent is just a label. It doesn't make you special.
Secondly, you elevate reproducing - which, along with eating, sleeping, and defecating are among the most basic of human instincts - with that of a "calling." Good grief, what's next? Designated titles for women who've bore children? "Hello, Mrs. Holy Mother of Four, where would you like to be seated today? Shall we get out the platinum-plated thrones for your children to sit on again?"
I mean, you've gone so far as to request that language be changed regarding childbirth to "more respectful language" - completely missing the humor - because parents feel that childbirth is "special." It's completely mindboggling to me how much you smack of entitlement.
Jen Wading at November 30, 2009 3:35 PM
Antonia: Yes. Peer relationships are enormously important. You could be a wonderful parent and still have a kid who spits on the fries. Even with nothing but positive influences, sometimes people are just weak and petty. Which is, again, why my brain doesn't flash "bad parent" in response to the child's behavior, but to the parents' behavior.
I don't normally long for the "good old days," but I find myself doing that now: the good old days when people didn't do so much navel-gazing about parenthood. My grandparents had a strong sense of right and wrong and tried to instill that in their kids, but they never spent much time being bitter about the respect (or lack of it) that they got from others. Parenthood was just something they did, like getting up and going to work and scrubbing the floor.
MonicaP at November 30, 2009 3:39 PM
"My grandparents had a strong sense of right and wrong and tried to instill that in their kids, but they never spent much time being bitter about the respect (or lack of it) that they got from others."
Maybe that's because they got respect for it. Raising a family was once seen as good, noble thing to do for society. Motherhood, in particular, was respected much more than it is today.
In fact, I find it interesting that many of the worst diatribes against parenthood "not being special" are from other women, presumably those who are not mothers. Is it that our decision to become parents threatens you? It shouldn't.
I respect your job, calling, or profession. I bet I do, whatever it is - whether you're a waitress or an engineer.
lovelysoul at November 30, 2009 3:53 PM
"Maybe that's because they got respect for it. Raising a family was once seen as good, noble thing to do for society. Motherhood, in particular, was respected much more than it is today."
I beg to differ. Motherhood was a role that most women had to accept. It was their role and it was expected of them. Before they could go out and join the workforce, there was absolutely no choice in the matter for them.
Luckily, we women today get a choice. To either become parents or to NOT become parents.
What I find "interesting" is the condescending attitude that not being a parent threatens me somehow. Go tell that to my free time, peace of mind, and well behaved pets, please.
BTW, what a feeble attempt at trying to get a rise, by pushing the jealousy button....still no cookie for you, however.
Jen Wading at November 30, 2009 4:09 PM
lovelysoul writes: Well, obviously, we know that, so it goes without saying. But I disagree. I think the prevailing attitude is often that it's easy, and that anybody can do it. Or it's "shut up and do it!" (when we ARE doing it and HAVE done it).
I never thought parenting was easy. The most uncharitable thought I've had toward parents in general is, "I don't care how hard it is. You still have to do it. You chose to have it, now you take care of it."
Regarding the rudeness displayed toward parents, I would say, quite the contrary, there's a rudeness displayed by parents (not all parents).
What would the restaurant manager say if your kid runs through the restaurant, making noise, disturbing others. Depending on the severity, probably not much, if anything. However if you did the same thing, they'd probably have a lot to say.
Most parents I've seen don't think they have the right to yell and scream and disturb other people. Why do they think their children have this right?
Patrick at November 30, 2009 4:09 PM
There seems to be some confusion about the meaning of the word "special." There's no diatribe about this. Parenting ISN'T special if you put it on par with other jobs. Then it's mundane. That doesn't mean it isn't important.
When I say I don't care how parents feel about their job, that's not the same as having disdain for the role of parents. I don't care how my waitress feels about carrying plates. She doesn't care how I feel about taking care of my parents. As it should be. We're not friends. I still respect her as a human and tip well if she's a good waitress.
One downside to birth control on demand is that parenthood has become a sacred calling that only the wisest, sturdiest folk can do well. A hundred years ago, it was just something that happened if you had enough sex. Now, if I challenge the job a mother does controlling her child on a plane, it must be because I hate children, or parents, or I'm jealous of parents, or I feel threatened by them. It can't just be that I hate the sound of screeching in my ears and want it to stop.
MonicaP at November 30, 2009 4:38 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/11/29/super_dog_nanny.html#comment-1679900">comment from Jen WadingWhat I find "interesting" is the condescending attitude that not being a parent threatens me somehow. Go tell that to my free time, peace of mind, and well behaved pets, please. BTW, what a feeble attempt at trying to get a rise, by pushing the jealousy button....still no cookie for you, however.
Hah - love that. Jen Wading, keep coming back!
Amy Alkon at November 30, 2009 6:26 PM
I didn't say you were threatened, I just asked if you were.
I was merely trying to understand why you would write such an angry response just because I described motherhood as a "calling". I mean, it's absurd that a description should provoke such a rant, in which you assert that childbirth isn't even "special".
A whole lot of people, both men and women, who have been through childbirth - witnessing their children come into the world - consider it special. You may not think so, but you obviously haven't experienced it, so how would you know? But, at any rate, not knowing what it's like, why do you need to detract from our feelings about it?
I'm not criticizing your pet, or your feelings about his/her specialness. I have a pomeranian I love (and travel with) too. I'm glad you have free time. No parent was being critical of your life.
So, I just don't get the venom behind your rant several posts above, Jen. What do you care whether parents consider what they do a "calling" or not?
Besides, isn't it better, when we're raising future members of society, that we consider it something a bit more important than just another punch-the-clock "job"? Bad parents consider it like that. Good parents view it as something a bit more inspired, and that seems to be what anyone should want.
lovelysoul at December 1, 2009 12:21 AM
Lovelysoul, I think I see the problem. When you consider the meaning of the word "special," the word doesn't truly apply to childbirth. I may be getting caught up in semantics here, but with 7 billion people on the planet, we can't really consider giving birth a special event. Of course, the event was special and monumental to you. It's unreasonable to think that anyone who has not been been through it is going to see anything extraordinary about it.
Bad parents consider it like that.
I've seen plenty of parents who think their kids are gifts from heaven, and parenthood is the most important job in the world, but still don't give a rat's ass about anyone else, and are teaching their kids not to give a rat's ass about anyone else. Those people are bad parents.
When Hillary Clinton wrote the book "It Takes a Village," the phrase "it takes a village to raise a child" was thrown about a lot. Parents seem to want the support of nonparents when it comes to social programs and understanding, but when it comes to nonparents expressing an opinion on how those future members of society should interact with society, we're told to shut up and make babies before we can have a valid opinion.
MonicaP at December 1, 2009 7:14 AM
No, Monica, we don't want non-parents not to express an opinion. I find many of the opinions and ideas non-parents have are very good ones. What I, and I think other parents, would like to see is the same level of humility in commenting on an area in which you have no experience as we would show you for your job.
I don't recall what you do (maybe an attorney?), but if I'm going to comment on it, I will acknowledge that it's not an area where I have any expertise, and if you explain that it's not the way I imagine it to be, I will respect your opinion more and show deference to it because you obviously have years of experience in that field that I do not.
But this isn't what we parents get from non-parents. It's, "don't think you know more just because you've done it, because anybody can do it, so nothing about doing it makes you any more qualified than me."
True, anyone can *become* a parent. There are parents, in name only, who have no valuable experience or insight to offer. Many parents don't even raise their own children.
But those of us who have done it well, and have years of practical, day-to-day experience, have gained as much wisdom about our job as you have about yours.
And I would say that about an aunt, uncle, or any other caregiver who has raised a child, whether biologically related or not. It's not the title that matters, it's the actual experience of raising the child that counts. Unless you've done that, please don't presume to know everything about parenthood, as we would not presume to know everything about what you do.
lovelysoul at December 1, 2009 7:48 AM
@ MonicaP: 'when it comes to nonparents expressing an opinion on how those future members of society should interact with society, we're told to shut up and make babies before we can have a valid opinion.'
I think that's what so galling. People are people and parents/non-parents fall into that category. You get great parents and lousy parents, non-parents who are great at child rearing and and those who are useless with children. Sure having children gives you a different insight and that needs to be thrown into the mix. But not having children doesn't mean your opinion and experience can't be valid and useful. Yet there's a default that parents must know best and non-parents can't possibly have anything valid to contribute and should butt out. That's plain ridiculous.
AntoniaB at December 1, 2009 9:15 AM
The thing is Lovelysoul that there's no mandatory training for being a parent. To take your attorney example - there's a stamp of approval from Law School and, if you're practicing, the Bar.
Having no mandatory training or official benchmark of graduation makes it more difficult automatically to defer. What, for example, if you automatcially defer to someone who's a lousy or even dangerous parent just because ... she's that parent? That's why a lot people here are saying they look to the parent's actions not just that they are the parent.
AntoniaB at December 1, 2009 9:41 AM
That's fine, except we're having a discussion. You're not observing my kids, and it's true you don't really know whether I'm a good parent or a lousy parent. Just like I don't know if anyone here is good lawyer, nurse, salesman, writer, bartender, etc. Some jobs require more qualifications than others, but that still doesn't tell you whether the practitioner is good or bad.
Yet, unless you sound like you're lousy at what you do, and make really stupid comments, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt in a discussion.
I don't think momoffour and I come across as bad parents, do we? It seems to me we come across as exactly what we are - very seasoned, experienced, intelligent parents. If parenthood did have a benchmark, we'd be pros. I've almost finished raising my children, and she is in the thick of the toughest part of parenthood right now. Therefore, we have insights and wisdom to offer, and I don't see why our experience should be dismissed as unimportant.
lovelysoul at December 1, 2009 10:14 AM
A whole lot of people, both men and women, who have been through childbirth - witnessing their children come into the world - consider it special.
We all have heart felt moments in our lives that we look upon and smile. The difference is that I don't expect you to congratulate me on the anniversary of my first orgasm, or when I had my tubes tied, or when I completed my master's degree. I have no issue with you feeling that childbirth was an emotional and almost magical time in your life, I have issue with you demanding that the rest of the world hold you in awe because of it.
I also have issue with the idea that we should hold all parents in awe whether their children a mass murderers or Nobel prize winners. If they are mass murderers the response is 'I did the best I could with what I was given' if they win the Nobel Prize, then it's 'Look what I raised my child to do'. If you as a parent hold no responsibility for the results of your labor, then why should I respect you for that effort?
Because parents raised them all, and hopefully taught them ethics. Without us doing our job well, the mechanic will overbill you, the lawn mower won't show up, the teen will spit in your fries, and the researcher will sell out to Big Pharma.
This is what bothers me about the typical breeder rant...Parents only want to take responsibility for the actions of their children when it is convenient for them. In this post you (on behalf of all parents) are taking ownership of the ethics and morals of all of mankind. Earlier, you were saying that if your child throws a temper tantrum, it isn't your fault and that parents just try to do their best with 'what they are given'. Which is it? Are children Tabla Rasa that parents mold into ethical, moral, functioning adults, or are they out of control speed boats that you just attempt to keep off of the rocks?
-Julie
JulieW at December 1, 2009 10:26 AM
Lovelysoul - you're trying to personalize this. I'm not talking here about your parenting and Momof4's parenting.
In our society it's a truth universally acknowledged that parents know best and non-parents should automatically defer and butt out. That's plain ridiculous.
AntoniaB at December 1, 2009 10:34 AM
@lovelysoul
If you read most of the comments that are made on this site the people without children always make sure to point out the people that they are complaining about OBVIOUSLY DO NOT CARE what their child is doing.
It is apparent when the guardian of a child cares how that child affects others. Even when they are using the "ignore" method of dealing with the child's behavior.
No one starts the conversation attacking parents who are legitimately trying to parent their children.
In fact, in support of this argument, my mother a woman who has been raising children for 30+ years, has always recommended that before having children people should have dogs. That way they know whats ahead of them. She has done that my whole life and longer. So not all parents are insulted by comparing child rearing to raising puppies.
MizB at December 1, 2009 10:35 AM
I don't think momoffour and I come across as bad parents, do we? It seems to me we come across as exactly what we are - very seasoned, experienced, intelligent parents.
You and momof4 seem like excellent mothers, as well as I can tell that sort of thing from blog comments. And no one is saying that your insight is unimportant. Your insight, however, is not MORE important than those of us who don't have children. It's just insight from a different angle.
Just because we are criticizing your opinion (clearly, we disagree on how much slack the plane mom should get), it's not a commentary on your parenting skills.
Nonparents do have a vested interested in how this generation turns out, since the children of today will be the doctors and engineers and bus boys of tomorrow. We can see the matter from a less emotionally involved perspective -- that is, from the perspective of the people forced to listen to a child crying for two hours. You see it from a frazzled mother's perspective. The two are not incompatible, though. It seems like you would be an ideal choice for giving mothers like this tips on how to get through these experiences with more grace.
MonicaP at December 1, 2009 10:38 AM
Regarding childbirth being "special," MonicaP summed it up best "...the word doesn't truly apply to childbirth...with 7 billion people on the planet, we can't really consider giving birth a special event. Of course, the event was special and monumental to you."
It's just as absurd to me that you want to elevate a biological process the female body goes through as "special" - so much so that you demand that we all acknowledge it as such and give it "respect." Where is your sense of humor, your allowance that others may - and do - see it in a different light?
I've been in the delivery room with my best friend when she had her first son. I've shared her joy as my nephew (I consider him that) made his debut into the world. I've also seen the blood, feces, and placenta that accompanied him on his grand entrance. Yep, it was pretty "special" alright. I just want to keep it real and not over-sentimentalize that which is very basic and common to the human experience.
"So, I just don't get the venom behind your rant several posts above, Jen. What do you care whether parents consider what they do a "calling" or not?"
I care when you take a choice that you have made for yourself, and in very insidious language, attempt to assign it more importance above other jobs. You want to be acknowledged as "special". And that posters (on an anonymous board, no less) give you "respect." And that people without children show you "humility."
What your postings suggest is that people with kids be treated above others, that they're more important than the rest of us. It's a mindset that cries out for entitlements. I have a problem with people demanding that they be given special treatment based on their reproductive choices. With societal courtesies as they stand now, the last thing we need is one more special interest group that feels entitled to do, behave, and say what they want without any fear of repercussions.
Jen Wading at December 1, 2009 10:46 AM
MonicaP and Jen Wading - well put!
AntoniaB at December 1, 2009 10:50 AM
There's so much that I did not say in your post, Julie. I don't expect to be "held in awe" any more than I would hold you in awe for being an engineer or IT specialist. But I'll respect that you have more experience in your field than I do. I'm not going to tell you that I can do your job better than you do it.
And just because a young child throws tantrums (and they all do at some point), or a child is especially spirited and difficult, doesn't mean the parents don't have the ultimate responsibility for teaching ethics and turning out a decent human being.
I'm not saying if I produce a mass murderer you should respect me as a parent, any more than I would respect you if a bridge you engineered fell down and killed a bunch of people.
But don't treat me like that is going to happen. I wouldn't treat you like that - as if you're probably an inept engineer. I have every reason to believe that you are very competent at what you do, and I show you respect for that, whenever you have talked about your work. I only want the SAME deference for my experience as I give you or anyone else who has years of experience in their job.
This whole thing that parents are asking for awe and entitlement, etc is a complete exaggeration. Perhaps you don't see how rude and dismissive many of the comments have been towards us. If they were made towards you, I wouldn't let them stand. Your experience means something and so does ours.
lovelysoul at December 1, 2009 10:51 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/11/29/super_dog_nanny.html#comment-1680006">comment from MizBIt is apparent when the guardian of a child cares how that child affects others. Even when they are using the "ignore" method of dealing with the child's behavior. No one starts the conversation attacking parents who are legitimately trying to parent their children.
Exactly, And AntoniaB is right on about the silly notion that parents know best and non-parents should automatically defer and butt out.
Amy Alkon at December 1, 2009 10:57 AM
"What your postings suggest is that people with kids be treated above others, that they're more important than the rest of us."
That is just utter bullshit. I've never said that. You are projecting that on to me because you'd rather look down on parents, whihc your commemts clearly suggest. The fact that I'm asking that parenthood be considered just as worthy as other jobs upsets you because then you can't have this condescending attitude that it's unimportant.
If anybody is sounding special - setting themselves above the rest of humanity because whatever you do isn't some nasty biological process repeated billions of times - it's you.
lovelysoul at December 1, 2009 11:01 AM
"Exactly, And AntoniaB is right on about the silly notion that parents know best and non-parents should automatically defer and butt out."
Nobody has said that either. It's just a strawman argument. I said I welcome comments from non-parents and often find them to be very good. All we want is for people to show the same level of deference that we would show you for having far more experience in your field than we do.
lovelysoul at December 1, 2009 11:05 AM
" I think that's what so galling. People are people and parents/non-parents fall into that category. You get great parents and lousy parents, non-parents who are great at child rearing and and those who are useless with children. Sure having children gives you a different insight and that needs to be thrown into the mix. But not having children doesn't mean your opinion and experience can't be valid and useful. Yet there's a default that parents must know best and non-parents can't possibly have anything valid to contribute and should butt out. That's plain ridiculous."
YES
"The thing is... there's no mandatory training for being a parent...Having no mandatory training or official benchmark of graduation makes it more difficult automatically to defer. What, for example, if you automatically defer to someone who's a lousy or even dangerous parent just because ... she's that parent? That's why a lot people here are saying they look to the parent's actions not just that they are the parent."
YES
All well said, AntoniaB.
Jen Wading at December 1, 2009 11:12 AM
The fact that I'm asking that parenthood be considered just as worthy as other jobs upsets you because then you can't have this condescending attitude that it's unimportant.
You aren't asking that parenthood be regarded as important as any other job. Everyone here would give you that. You are asking specifically for additional consideration. I quote:
I said:
Why is being a parent more important than the mechanic that fixes your car or the guy who mows your lawn, or the teenager that cooks your french fries, or the researcher finding the cure for cancer?
And you said:
Because parents raised them all, and hopefully taught them ethics. Without us doing our job well, the mechanic will overbill you, the lawn mower won't show up, the teen will spit in your fries, and the researcher will sell out to Big Pharma.
You aren't looking for equality, you are looking for veneration. Procreation doesn't (and shouldn't) elicit that type of fanfare in most people. It never really did. I respect your desire to bring up good functioning adults. I will support you in that pursuit as much as I can. But, I won't tolerate a screaming, snotting, running yard ape when I am just trying to enjoy a meal with my husband. If the parent doesn't do anything about it, I will become upset and address it as I can. Why is that such a horrible thing?
-Julie
JulieW at December 1, 2009 11:18 AM
> Procreation doesn't (and shouldn't) elicit
> that type of fanfare in most people.
> It never really did.
Excellent.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at December 1, 2009 11:21 AM
"What, for example, if you automatically defer to someone who's a lousy or even dangerous parent just because ... she's that parent?"
And what has any parent here contributed to this onversation that would make anyone presume they are lousy and dangerous?
I don't have a problem treating you like you are competent at what you do. I don't even know what it is, but if you told me, I wouldn't automatically, without evidence, assume you were inept at it. That's simple courtesy and respect. Why should "lousy and dangerous" be the automatic starting point with parents?
lovelysoul at December 1, 2009 11:22 AM
Also, can I have some applause for my mashup of '60s icons de Beauvoir and Campbell in the earlier comment? I'm kinda proud of it. It was snarky and bruising, but appropriate and insightful as well.
Thank you, thank you very much. No... You're too kind. Thank you.... Goodnight.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at December 1, 2009 11:28 AM
"Because parents raised them all, and hopefully taught them ethics. Without us doing our job well, the mechanic will overbill you, the lawn mower won't show up, the teen will spit in your fries, and the researcher will sell out to Big Pharma."
I was obviously joking, after you were trying to diminish the importance of good parenting.
If you want to have a world where you won't be disturbed by screaming, impolite children, then that is all the more reason to listen to those of us who are veteran parents, and to compliment, not deride, our efforts.
loveysoul at December 1, 2009 11:28 AM
"That is just utter bullshit. I've never said that. You are projecting that on to me..."
You have made numerous and repeated comments asking for "respect," that childbirth be considered "special," that you be given "deference" and be shown "humility."
Please explain to me how I am projecting that onto you when you make your position tremendously clear how you want to be treated? You are just so far in it that you can't see beyond it.
"The fact that I'm asking that parenthood be considered just as worthy as other jobs upsets you because then you can't have this condescending attitude that it's unimportant."
When did I ever say that parenthood was unimportant? Don't put words into my mouth.
If I come off as condescending, it's because trite and emotional presumptions, many which you make, about a very common human experience don't move me. I won't argue based off of universal assumptions and I will point out the ridiculousness of people - such as yourself - who do.
Jen Wading at December 1, 2009 11:30 AM
I have said the language used to describe parenthood, including childbirth, here has been disrespectful and was meant to trivialize it, and I stand by that.
It is not meant to be humorous. It is meant to diminish the act of becoming a parent because anyone can "squeeze out a kid", and while that is correct, the prevailing attitude is rude and antagonizing to parents who have put in the time, struggled and sacrificed, in a relentless, exhausting job, which is given very little credit and whole lot of ridicule and judgement, to turn out good, productive kids.
I don't understand why those who purport to be against rudeness somehow believe it's okay to be condescending and belittling towards parents.
lovelysoul at December 1, 2009 11:44 AM
If you want to have a world where you won't be disturbed by screaming, impolite children, then that is all the more reason to listen to those of us who are veteran parents, and to compliment, not deride, our efforts.
When have I done something to deride your efforts as a parent? Am I slipping your children candy when they are grounded? Helping them sneak out of the house? Buying them beer? I have done nothing to deride your parental efforts nor the efforts of any other parent I have interacted with. I just refuse to give parenthood a larger amount of token respect than I give any other profession. I don't assume that you are a bad parent, but I also don't assume that you are a spectacular one. Frankly it isn't any of my business unless you make it such by invading my space with out of control offspring without attempting to address those issues. If that occurs, I will address it at the time.
-Julie
JulieW at December 1, 2009 11:45 AM
I have said the language used to describe parenthood, including childbirth, here has been disrespectful and was meant to trivialize it, and I stand by that.
Why are you so insistent that the world should view your personal milestones with the same starry-eyed disposition? Why do you care so much about whether I view childbirth as a miracle, or an occasion where you grunt, squeal like a pig, tear your vagina and take a dump in front of 20 people and a video camera all in order to produce offspring? I repeat, you aren't looking for respect, you are looking for all of us to be awe struck by the same things that you are.
The day I had my first orgasm was a turning point in my life. I can see the change it made in me and how I viewed the world and future relationships. However, I also recognize that it is a biologic function that works to emotionally attach a woman to her sexual partner through the release of oxytocin and serve as positive reinforcement of the act of breeding. I don't expect you to hold greater respect for me because I had an orgasm, nor do I expect you to view it with starry eyed wonder. Our view of what is wonderful and magical in our lives is a very personal thing. Why must we view your experiences through the same lens that you do?
-Julie
JulieW at December 1, 2009 12:02 PM
"It is not meant to be humorous. It is meant to diminish the act of becoming a parent because anyone can "squeeze out a kid.."
So I guess the term "dropping the kids off at the pool" wouldn't fly in your household either??
Jen Wading at December 1, 2009 12:04 PM
Well, it's an easy thing to target what I and other parents do, and how we give birth, as we are not speaking of your chosen profession in diminishing terms. I don't think you would appreciate it any more than we do, and you would probably feel just as insulted if your job was compared to dog training, and every grunt and groan you made while doing it was fodder for those who stand in judgment.
But since you are fortunately insulated from criticism, since we don't even know how or what you do to contribute to society in any way, go right ahead with your ugly comments. You're just making my point.
lovelysoul at December 1, 2009 12:17 PM
Humans have a long history of knocking down a few pegs the things other people hold ludicrously sacred. We do it when we refer to God as the Flying Spaghetti Monster, when we refer to PhDs as "piled higher and deeper," when we talk about marriage as a life sentence, and when we talk about childbirth as "squeezing one out."
These things are a nudge from the world that we need to stop taking ourselves so seriously, that we need to stop expecting other people to view our private magical moments as having cosmic importance.
MonicaP at December 1, 2009 12:25 PM
Well, it's an easy thing to target what I and other parents do, and how we give birth, as we are not speaking of your chosen profession in diminishing terms. I don't think you would appreciate it any more than we do, and you would probably feel just as insulted if your job was compared to dog training
I'm a newspaper editor. Dog trainers get way more respect than I do.
MonicaP at December 1, 2009 12:29 PM
I don't think you would appreciate it any more than we do, and you would probably feel just as insulted if your job was compared to dog training, and every grunt and groan you made while doing it was fodder for those who stand in judgment.
Computer Geeks are regularly the fodder of every two bit comedian and the angry targets for every Luddite on the planet. Some of the comments and characterizations are funny, and some are mean spirited. Many are wholly inaccurate. But in the end, I don't care what other people think about it, and I don't expect to be elevated in regard because of what I do.
It doesn't matter to me that others don't understand how lost they would be without the assistance of computer geeks, nor does it bother me that most people will never understand what it feels like to dig through error logs and memory dumps to find the exact origin of a problem and create a resolution with nothing but my mind and 0s and 1s on a magnetic platter. I take pride in what I do, and I do it to the best of my ability. However, I have no need for you to appreciate what I do or feel respect or awe in your heart for my efforts. I do them for my own reasons. Why is our approval of your efforts so important to you?
-Julie
JulieW at December 1, 2009 12:33 PM
How do I contribute to society?
I WORK. And by working, I pay the taxes that put your kids through the school system for at least 12 years. ANYBODY who works does this - regardless of their occupation.
Your simple posturing what non-parents do reveals the self-centered and smug attitude that I have been constantly referring to.
Jen Wading at December 1, 2009 12:33 PM
Monica, that works when you're willing to be self-effacing yourself, and point out your own faults and not take yourself so seriously. However, I don't feel that's what's happening here. That's not how Amy writes. It's not an Erma Bombeck, "let's not take ourselves so seriously" humorous tone. It's a straight out judgment call made by someone who believes she is almost infallibly right.
I don't expect anyone to view my childbirth experience as having cosmic importance, but I don't expect it to be described in the ugly, explicit, demeaning way it has been.
lovelysoul at December 1, 2009 12:36 PM
I don't expect anyone to view my childbirth experience as having cosmic importance, but I don't expect it to be described in the ugly, explicit, demeaning way it has been.
Why do you think we are discussing YOUR childbirth experience? We are discussing it in general. In the way that anyone can view it on TLC. The question is this: are we describing it inaccurately? You view it as a sacred moment. Others of us view it as a distasteful biologic function. Why must we be wrong and you be right?
-Julie
JulieW at December 1, 2009 12:43 PM
What you seem to be saying is that we all have to watch how we phrase things so we don't accidentally push over someone's scared cow. But lots of things are described in ugly, explicit ways. What if people really do see it as ugly and gross? Are they supposed to censor themselves so as to avoid offending anyone? Do we need to apply this gentler approach to everything, like gay marriage and welfare moms, or just childbirth?
And you pretty much have to have rock-solid faith in yourself to have an advice column called "Advice Goddess."
MonicaP at December 1, 2009 12:50 PM
Lovelysoul,
What will it take to get you to understand that Amy uses that phrase because not all people who give birth CHOOSE to be responsible parents. She trivilizes the act of giving birth because simply the act of giving life to a child IS trivial.
Your choice to raise respectable, caring and responsible adults is, quite honestly, rare; at least here in the Illinois area. Most of the females I know that get pregnant simply did so because they wanted to have an orgasm and didn't think about the consequences before they did so.
The act of parenting itself ISN'T trivial. It is grueling and tiresome and frankly I applaud everyone who knows they aren't cut out for it and take precaution NOT to procreate because they know they would be the terrible parents we are complaining about.
AND FURTHERMORE, the reason terrible parents get so much publicity on this site is because they do create issues in public and the main purpose of this site is to make fun of annoying situations.
So lighten up the subject did not begin as a "LETS BASH LOVELYSOUL AND ALL PARENTS" column. Don't take it personally. No one was critizing you until you brought yourself into it.
CALM DOWN!
btw, I am a newspaper reporter. Trivialize away at my job. I don't care, I'm not important. I completely and wholeheartedly admit it.
MizB at December 1, 2009 12:58 PM
"Why do you think we are discussing YOUR childbirth experience? We are discussing it in general. In the way that anyone can view it on TLC. The question is this: are we describing it inaccurately? You view it as a sacred moment. Others of us view it as a distasteful biologic function. Why must we be wrong and you be right?"
What difference does it make? Good manners requires that even if you find something distasteful, while others may find it meaningful, you should refrain from offending anyone.
People poop, bleed, and have other nasty biological functions when they die too, but good taste dictates that you shouldn't go to the funeral and discuss THAT. My uncle did when my grandmother died - he told me all about her last bowel movement - and I thought then what I think now: Why do YOU need to say that? Is that all you saw happening in that moment?
I saw my beloved grandmother pass away from this world...just as I saw my children enter into it. That's what I saw.
The fact you see something else is fine, but it's pretty poor taste to affront people with your play-by-play in an effort to diminish the significance of the moment for them. That's the essence of bad manners.
lovelysoul at December 1, 2009 1:05 PM
I don't expect anyone to view my childbirth experience as having cosmic importance, but I don't expect it to be described in the ugly, explicit, demeaning way it has been.
Nobody here has been attacking YOUR childbirth experience. What I have been attacking is the presumptions that you wish to assign to ALL childbirth experiences. You make absolutely zero allowance for other attitudes and outlooks. To this day, women die from childbirth, women get post-partum depression, women can contract infections from childbirth.
All of it is very unpleasant and very ugly - all of it is a reality for some woman, some where. You, in your insistence that child birthing be considered "special," do not make any allowance for other experiences that don't coincide with your own limited point of view.
And I am just referring to some of the experiences of child birthing in this country - nevermind women in un-developed countries who do not have access to the health-care that we privileged Americans can afford.
Jen Wading at December 1, 2009 1:19 PM
The fact you see something else is fine, but it's pretty poor taste to affront people with your play-by-play in an effort to diminish the significance of the moment for them.
That's an awfully big assumption, that people using coarse language to describe childbirth are doing so because they want to harsh on your wow. Some people see childbirth as disgusting. Should they force themselves to change their opinion because it might be offensive? Context is key. We are not standing outside a nursery telling new mothers they are gross. We are on an anonymous message board, the point of which is to discuss these things honestly.
MonicaP at December 1, 2009 1:26 PM
People poop, bleed, and have other nasty biological functions when they die too, but good taste dictates that you shouldn't go to the funeral and discuss THAT.
Great strawman! You gave him a hat and everything.
I saw my beloved grandmother pass away from this world...just as I saw my children enter into it. That's what I saw.
Congrats. You have very effective blinders. We aren't discussing this graphically in the church at your child's baptism. We aren't having this discussion at a meaningful emotional moment, which would be in poor taste. You just don't want us to ever discuss it that way because it was a meaningful emotional moment for you. I'm sorry, but you don't hold that level of power.
The fact you see something else is fine, but it's pretty poor taste to affront people with your play-by-play in an effort to diminish the significance of the moment for them.
This is the part that you don't get. I don't care about the significance of that moment for you. You over-estimate how much I contemplate your moods and emotions.
Your issue started out that you didn't think that parenthood was getting enough positive spin here. You then said that parenthood doesn't get enough respect and consideration. Now you are offended by the honest description of the child birthing process because it is 'meaningful' to you and you don't choose to remember it that way. I hate to break it to you sister, but no one should be forced to dance around your ever changing mood and stroke your fragile parental ego.
This all started because Amy made an association between positive/effective dog training and positive/effective parenting. Both have similar components: positive reinforcement, rewards, punishment, love and consideration for the limits of the animal/child, consideration for those around you during the rearing/training process. You have been on an ADHD rant about this ever since. What exactly is your point?
-Julie
JulieW at December 1, 2009 1:27 PM
> This is the part that you don't get.
> I don't care about the significance
> of that moment for you. You over-estimate
> how much I contemplate your moods
> and emotions.
I like the cut of your jib, Sailor.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at December 1, 2009 1:29 PM
harsh on your wow
I love that phrase!
-Julie
JulieW at December 1, 2009 1:30 PM
I hate to break it to you sister, but no one should be forced to dance around your ever changing mood and stroke your fragile parental ego.
nice Julie.
Jen Wading at December 1, 2009 1:37 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/11/29/super_dog_nanny.html#comment-1680077">comment from MizBLovelysoul, What will it take to get you to understand that Amy uses that phrase because not all people who give birth CHOOSE to be responsible parents. She trivilizes the act of giving birth because simply the act of giving life to a child IS trivial.
Exactly. Think rationally -- don't take criticism of bad parents personally if you aren't a bad parent; i.e., for one, if you aren't somebody who raises entitled brats who aren't taught to be considerate of others.
Amy Alkon at December 1, 2009 1:38 PM
Look, I personally found childbirth, from a technical standpoint, to be pretty distasteful myself, and I didn't intend to get into a debate about it. The only reason I brought it up is to say that using language like "spit" and "squeeze" seems to be trivializing - which, admittedly, is Amy's point and how it was meant.
Yet, it just seems like an unnecessarily antagonizing way to speak to parents. You can't separate the good from the bad that way because both good and bad parents give birth. If you want hate mail, that's a good way to get it. If you don't mind, then neither do I.
lovelysoul at December 1, 2009 1:55 PM
There are mothers in this world, naive, isolated ones, for whom life is an endless coffee klatch with the girls from around the cul-de-sac on a school-morning Tuesday. They can't think of any policy matters, or experiences of other people, except in their own terms.
Old military people are like that too, and we've had a few of those guys in these comments over the years: 'I jumped out of an airplane twice during basic, and was a peacetime file clerk at Fort Bricabrac for twenty-seven years! And I was a DAMN GOOD one, too! I have ribbons, and citations of merit from Brigadier General Wilbur Hootenanny! So I've seen it ALL, mister! My experience of the world is UNIVERSALLY applicable!'
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at December 1, 2009 1:56 PM
@ Lovelysoul: I don't have a problem treating you like you are competent at what you do. I don't even know what it is, but if you told me, I wouldn't automatically, without evidence, assume you were inept at it.
Please don't take what I'm going to say as personally about you as you're obviously a thoughtful and responsible parent.
I have years of training as a Historian. This means that when I finished my Master's Degree and strode up to my first prospective employer to ask for a job, I could point to credentials that said I had training and talent. If someone chooses to (or by accident) becomes a parent there's no graduation magna cum lauda that that parent can show which qualifies them as good parent. It's simple biology. That's sucks, sure, but it's a fact. I don't assume a parent is inept but I can't assume a parent knows best - there's no benchmark to become a parent. You don't go to school before you an become pregnant. I think that's important - there's ample proof that a parent doesn't automatically know best and some children need rescuing from dangerous parents.
Basically 'anybody' can become a parent - you're a good one, but there's no school for parents. In other walks of life you have to get your credentials *before* you practice. Having credentials is a way of showing *up front* that you're good at what you do. Sadly, parents can't get their credentials up front.
AntoniaB at December 1, 2009 2:00 PM
Amy commented: i.e., for one, if you aren't somebody who raises entitled brats who aren't taught to be considerate of others.
In my experience as a parent who deals with MANY other parents, the people who usually end up with the entitled brats usually have no idea that they did. It's the other parents who see it. I know this firsthand. In their eyes, their kids are so sweeeet and adorable. Barf.
Kari at December 1, 2009 2:02 PM
Don't have time to read all the comments, but thought I'd say this: The big difference between raising dogs and raising humans is that dogs are born wanting to please others. Humans are born wanting to please themselves. This, of course, is just one reason so many people prefer to raise dogs.
lenona at December 1, 2009 3:57 PM
Regarding childbirth being "special,"
Giving birth isn't special. Rats give birth.
Patrick at December 1, 2009 5:37 PM
"Giving birth isn't special. Rats give birth."
I think this pretty much summarizes the respect that we parents get. And then you wonder why some parents don't do a better job?
lovelysoul at December 1, 2009 7:39 PM
Parents doing a good job has NOTHING to do with what kind of "respect" they get. It has to do with whether or not they wanted the kids they shot out in the first place.
MizB at December 1, 2009 7:46 PM
> And then you wonder why some parents
> don't do a better job?
Yes, we do. Again, it's not the magnitude of the challenge that earns respect, it's the execution.
When Tiger Woods is aiming for the green, does he get all heart-broke and flustered just because some doofus in the gallery thinks he can't make it?
Crid [CridComment @ gmail] at December 1, 2009 7:48 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/11/29/super_dog_nanny.html#comment-1680134">comment from lovelysoul"Giving birth isn't special. Rats give birth." I think this pretty much summarizes the respect that we parents get. And then you wonder why some parents don't do a better job?
Oh, so it's all about audience appreciation? Those indulgent parents just aren't worshipped enough by the rest of us?
Amy Alkon at December 1, 2009 8:50 PM
lovelysoul: I think this pretty much summarizes the respect that we parents get.
Does it? Quite frankly, I think giving birth is excessively worshiped. Pregnant women are largely doted upon in our society, and giving birth is treated like a medical emergency, which it is not.
It's a simple statement of fact. Every mammal, except the platypus, gives birth. It is not the greatest miracle of modern times. It's simply the climactic moment of reproduction.
By the way, why does "parent" entitle you to any more respect than you had before you gained this title?
Patrick at December 1, 2009 10:47 PM
Patrick you forgot the echidna
lujlp at December 2, 2009 1:17 AM
In my experience as a parent who deals with MANY other parents, the people who usually end up with the entitled brats usually have no idea that they did. It's the other parents who see it. I know this firsthand. In their eyes, their kids are so sweeeet and adorable. Barf.
Posted by: Kari
Those people probaby dont understamd why they get fired or why people hate them either
The thing is childless people and good parents, at leat the kind who refuse to lump themselves with the bad parents in some sort of stupid victim status solidarity(lovelysoul, momof4)
Is that we realise that good behavior is not
IS NOT
IS NOT
IS NOT
subjective, it is objective
lujlp at December 2, 2009 1:33 AM
> Patrick you forgot the echidna
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at December 2, 2009 1:52 AM
No, it's not all about audience appreciation, but I often hear, "It takes a village...", and I believe that, but if this is what the village really thinks of parents - especially if their child dares not be perfect for a few minutes and disturbs the well-ordered world all the villagers think they're entitled to - then, it's no wonder that few offer help, much less empathy.
lovelysoul at December 2, 2009 5:59 AM
"Does it? Quite frankly, I think giving birth is excessively worshiped. Pregnant women are largely doted upon in our society, and giving birth is treated like a medical emergency, which it is not."
Mine was. My son almost died, and a friend's baby did die in childbirth. Giving birth IS a medical emergency.
I suppose you'd prefer we all go and squat in field, right?
lovelysoul at December 2, 2009 6:08 AM
then, it's no wonder that few offer help, much less empathy.
Posted by: lovelysoul
See amys new post of the day? The reason villiage memebers refuse to elp these days is because we get arrested for kidnapping if we wave while driving to the store
lujlp at December 2, 2009 6:55 AM
Lovelysoul,
The female body was designed to give birth just like it was designed to urinate, have a menstrual cycle, deficate, breathe, eat and all the other functions that the body performs. It is natural.
Only SOMETIMES does it fall into the case of medical emergency. Those cases are relatively rare for as many births that happen in a day throughout the world.
You do not require special respect for doing something EVERY female body is capable of doing. And complaining about it on this blog post, as you should be able to see, is not only NOT giving you the respect you are DEMANDING, but granting you less of it.
MizB at December 2, 2009 8:22 AM
I don't wish to belabor (excuse the pun) the childbirth discussion either, but anyone who thinks childbirth is not a medical emergency is ignorant.
Sure, women are designed for it, but do you know how many women and babies used to die giving birth before we had the medical interventions we do now? Many still die.
I'm sorry, I just can't let such ignorant comments stand. Just because women used to give birth without medical help - and many died and/or their children died - clearly doesn't mean it wasn't a life-threatening situation.
I'm sure some of you would rather we return to squatting in fields, and dying on a regular basis. Why give parents the protections of modern medicine lest we start to think we're "special" or something.
lovelysoul at December 2, 2009 8:38 AM
but I often hear, "It takes a village...", and I believe that, but if this is what the village really thinks of parents - especially if their child dares not be perfect for a few minutes and disturbs the well-ordered world all the villagers think they're entitled to - then, it's no wonder that few offer help, much less empathy.
Too many parents think the village is full of pedophiles, predators and ignorant fools who exist to make their lives easier, because they're doing the "hardest job in the world." I'm not surprised the village has told parents they're on their own.
A social contract goes both ways. I'm happy to give a parent the benefit of the doubt, and help out if I can. I expect that parent to be doing her best to keep her child from being a nuisance -- and I mean really trying hard, as in preparing for these events in advance and responding to them when they happen, not shrugging their shoulders, hoping for the best and saying, "Kids will be kids."
I am amazed by how much parents can tune out in regard to their children. I can't count how many times I've watched a child chant, "Mommy, mommy, mommy, mommy," trying to get a parent's attention, and the mother is happily chatting away with a friend or reading a magazine. Parents, especially mothers, seem to have Jedi-like mind powers when it comes to erecting the mommy filter. It's probably what keeps them sane, but nonparents don't have that kind of immunity.
MonicaP at December 2, 2009 8:50 AM
I would like some proof, besides "oh back in the old days women dropped like flies while giving birth" that its a medical emergency.
I am not saying that it doesn't take its toll on the body, but think about it, how many other animals die while giving birth on average?
Humans are not special in the fact that we give for life. As was previously stated every mammal on earth besides the platypus gives birth to living offspring. I do not speak in ignorance, but in truth. The human female body was created to give birth. Its what we are for. EVERY SINGLE ACT OF BIRTHING IS NOT A MEDICAL EMERGENCY.
That is not a statement of idiocy. It is a statement of medical fact. You just want sympathy and admiration you don't deserve.
MizB at December 2, 2009 8:50 AM
I'm sure some of you would rather we return to squatting in fields, and dying on a regular basis. Why give parents the protections of modern medicine lest we start to think we're "special" or something.
Okay, first off...sometimes childbirth is a medical emergency, which is why is it treated as a pseudo-emergency in most hospitals. Your doctor doesn't have you call an ambulance to get to the hospital, but you are brought in and attached to monitors to ensure that if something bad starts to happen, it can be addressed.
Second, no one is asking that women go out in fields and drop the kid in a mud puddle. But if you think that pregnancy and childbirth isn't treated like the most wonderful thing ever, look around the next time you see a pregnant woman. Or look at the front of magazines that show bulging pregnant pictures of the latest starlet to get knocked up. See how people migrate over to the pregnant woman to help her out or rub her stomach.
Giving birth is not 'special'. It may be meaningful to the parent, but it is not a special occurrence. Not feeling all warm and fuzzy about a biologic function doesn't translate into a lack of respect for parents. The gestater and the parent are very often two different things.
-Julie
JulieW at December 2, 2009 9:00 AM
I amend my original statement
I would like some proof, besides "oh back in the old days women dropped like flies while giving birth" that its a medical emergency.
to I would like some proof, besides "oh back in the old days women dropped like flies while giving birth" that its ALWAYS a medical emergency.
You speak as if it always is a life and death situation, which it isn't. It rarely is.
MizB at December 2, 2009 9:03 AM
Why does everyone forget te echidna?
Seriously people their are only TWO egg lying mammals is it really that hard to remember the second one?
lujlp at December 2, 2009 9:06 AM
I'm not asking for sympathy or admiration for giving birth. But human childbirth is simply not as easy or safe as it for most mammals. I don't know why. We have a narrow little canal and a big-headed infant (bigger brained than a squirrel) to push out. Often, they're turned the wrong way (breech) or the birth canal doesn't open wide enough. The ongoing labor causes distress for both the mother and the baby.
That's how my friend's baby died. Her midwife let her labor too long, and the baby suffered too much distress and died. If the baby had been removed by c-section, she would've lived. And this was in a hospital setting.
You don't have to respect or admire parents, but it's incorrect to suggest that childbirth isn't life-threatening and, therefore, a medical emergency. I can't imagine how anyone can feel such antipathy for parenthood that you begrudge us proper medical care.
lovelysoul at December 2, 2009 9:08 AM
I can't imagine how anyone can feel such antipathy for parenthood that you begrudge us proper medical care.
Who is suggesting that women in labor not receive proper medical care?
-Julie
JulieW at December 2, 2009 9:10 AM
MizB, I was responding to someone complaining that childbirth was "treated like a medical emergency", which it is, and because of the many complications that may occur, it should be.
"if you think that pregnancy and childbirth isn't treated like the most wonderful thing ever, look around the next time you see a pregnant woman. Or look at the front of magazines that show bulging pregnant pictures of the latest starlet to get knocked up. See how people migrate over to the pregnant woman to help her out or rub her stomach."
We're not the first ones to invent this. Go to Rome. Go to any major museum and count how many Madonna w/child paintings there are. Motherhood was once treated as much more sacred calling (divined by God, no less) than it is now.
lovelysoul at December 2, 2009 9:16 AM
Lovelysoul,
I NEVER said that laboring women don't need to be in hospitals or require any kind of medical attention. I just said that every birth isn't a medical emergency. My sister and niece almost died during childbirth and because of that my sister cannot have more children, though she desperately wants more. So I understand how quickly things can possibly turn, BUT not every case is life threatening. Infact, that is the acception to the rule. Panda's have more difficult labors than we do.
As for the echidna, Lujlp, I honestly didn't know about it. The platypus gets more publicity. And I know links were posted, but the comp I'm on right now doesn't like links.
MizB at December 2, 2009 9:20 AM
I also never said it isn't beautiful, wonderful, emotional or magical. I was there throughout most of my sisters labor and I wouldn't have missed it for the world.
The point I have been trying to make for two or three days, the one you are purposefully ignoring, Lovelysoul, is that it ISNT UNIQUE. It doesn't require admiration just because it happened. The ONLY reason human beings feel this way about birth is because it is SOMETIMES the culmination of the love of two people. Because SOMETIMES that child will be the center of the parents universe and well cared for. Because to SOME PEOPLE it is important and special. Britney Spears had a kid I didn't care, would have been gross for me to watch her give birth.
My sister had a kid, I cried. The beauty of it is subjective.
MizB at December 2, 2009 9:24 AM
I was responding to someone complaining that childbirth was "treated like a medical emergency", which it is, and because of the many complications that may occur, it should be.
The act of childbirth alone is not a medical emergency. It is not a heart attack, stroke, appendicitis, etc. If left untreated, it will not unilaterally result in injury or death. However, it has the potential to become a medical emergency quickly with a small window available for intervention. That is why most women in developed countries give birth in a hospital. It is a medical hedge against the emergency occurring.
Historically 1% of people engaging in childbirth would die. Now about 11 women in 100,000 births die.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maternal_death#Maternal_death_rates_in_the_20th_century
I agree that childbirth isn't an emergency. However, determining when it has become one is very difficult, which is why birthing mothers are given monitoring at the hospital.
Go to Rome. Go to any major museum and count how many Madonna w/child paintings there are.
Madonna was the woman who gave birth to the Son of God. That isn't on par with Jenny from the Quickie-Lube having her kid. However, you acknowledge that pregnant woman are venerated in our society in general. Why then are you here demanding additional positive attention and respect? Do you want to be regarded as The Madonna because of your procreational status?
-Julie
JulieW at December 2, 2009 9:34 AM
Exactly, MizB. It isn't unique, but it is beautiful to the people involved, so why speak of it in a way that will antagonize them?
I'm not particularly religious, but I know better than to go out in public and talk condescendingly about anybody's faith.
If you WANT to piss people off right away, so they won't listen to you, then that's a good move, but if you're trying to offer constructive advice and/or change a social problem, it's best to strike a tone that won't make a whole subset of people immediately defensive.
Btw, I never said you made the childbirth comment. I believe Patrick did. You just seemed to be defending it.
lovelysoul at December 2, 2009 9:34 AM
I was defending its medical emergency status because you act as if EVERY instance of childbirth is an emergency and it isn't. However, I do believe women, especially women who have history of birthing issues in their families, should do so in a hospital.
But you have been up in a tizzy about the simple act of birth from the beginning. So let me ask you this, do you think its beautiful when crack head Jane who is so doped up she can't remember her name gives life and then ceases to pay any attention to the child after it leaves her vagina?
Do you think she is qualified to give parenting advice to say my best friend who is about to become a mother, just because she previously lay on a birthing table and gave someone life?
That is what all of this arguing stemmed from. NO ONE began this attacking parents who care, BUT the point of the previous articles and terms of Squeezing which have gotten your hair in such a tangle have to be used bc anyone, even crack head Jane CAN GIVE BIRTH.
So maybe people pissed you off to get you to listen to reason. Maybe people lost a little reason bc you pissed them off.
MizB at December 2, 2009 9:46 AM
"Madonna was the woman who gave birth to the Son of God. That isn't on par with Jenny from the Quickie-Lube having her kid. However, you acknowledge that pregnant woman are venerated in our society in general. Why then are you here demanding additional positive attention and respect? Do you want to be regarded as The Madonna because of your procreational status?"
There are all sorts of mother and child paintings, not just depicting Mary and Jesus. I thought those were all called "Madonna" portraits, but apparently, not. Still, there have been tons of mother/child paintings througout the centuries.
And why is it so wrong for a pregnant woman to be treated a little special? I mean, it's 9 months, which can be very straining. She has a baby growing inside her. Why should we act like that's such a run of the mill, biological function that we're not going to treat her as if something unique and special is happening to HER.
Yes, plenty of other people and mammals have had babies, throughout centuries, but it's the first, or one of only a few, times it's happening to HER.
By that logic, should we not celebrate birthdays either? After all, people have been turning another year older since the beginning of time. Why should we take a day to celebrate and make that person feel special? I mean, they're NOT! They're just another one of the BILLIONS of people on earth, who will live and die, just like all the billions before them.
This attitude is a little crochety if you ask me. I hope I never get so cynical I resent a pregnant woman getting her belly rubbed.
lovelysoul at December 2, 2009 9:51 AM
If you WANT to piss people off right away, so they won't listen to you, then that's a good move, but if you're trying to offer constructive advice and/or change a social problem, it's best to strike a tone that won't make a whole subset of people immediately defensive.
Has it ever occurred to you that your demand of "respect" for "parents" is in itself antagonizing to people who are not "parents"?
You talk about wanting to strike a tone that is amiable to both sides of the discussion. Yet you continually ignore how your insistence for respect strikes posters as highly disagreeable.
Jen Wading at December 2, 2009 10:01 AM
And why is it so wrong for a pregnant woman to be treated a little special? I mean, it's 9 months, which can be very straining. She has a baby growing inside her. Why should we act like that's such a run of the mill, biological function that we're not going to treat her as if something unique and special is happening to HER.
I get crotchety about this only when people start expecting it. A very good friend of mine, during her pregnancy with her first child, treated her husband like a personal slave, even in the early months of her pregnancy, when she was perfectly capable of fetching things and doing things for herself. All because she was pregnant and "deserved" it. And I think that's what most people here seem to have a problem with -- the sense of entitlement that oozes from so many parents.
MonicaP at December 2, 2009 10:01 AM
"So let me ask you this, do you think its beautiful when crack head Jane who is so doped up she can't remember her name gives life and then ceases to pay any attention to the child after it leaves her vagina?"
Yes. Because an innocent, beaitiful child still came into the world.
But, no, she shouldn't give parenting advice if she has no practical experience in raising good children. But, those of us who do have that experience, deserve to be respected for it, and our view should be given a little more weight than someone who has no experience at all.
lovelysoul at December 2, 2009 10:01 AM
No one ever said that your parenting advice shouldn't be considered. The point was simply just because a kid came out of your body doesn't automatically make you an expert AND just because a kid DIDN'T come out of her body her opinion shouldn't be respected.
You turned this into an issue about you. Before all this arguing, I would have gladly listened to you if I needed help with the 6 year old I have at home. No one ever doubted you, they were just saying that people don't respect opinions from someone who hasn't created another life, but creating life in and of itself doesn't make you someone to listen to.
MizB at December 2, 2009 10:06 AM
And by the way, when crack head Jane's baby is born it will be the most HEARTWRENCHING experience for people who value children because that child will be born an addict.
It is truly sad and horrifying, but special nonetheless.
MizB at December 2, 2009 10:07 AM
But, no, she shouldn't give parenting advice if she has no practical experience in raising good children. But, those of us who do have that experience, deserve to be respected for it, and our view should be given a little more weight than someone who has no experience at all.
You can demand extra respect for your opinion all you like, but no one is required to give it to you. You are asking us to determine over a blog whether you are a good parent, or to take your word for it that you are. And why does your opinion hold more weight than crackhead Jane's? Maybe she learned a lot from being a really poor mother, and we could all learn from her experiences. Which is why I give your opinion just as much weight -- not less, not more -- than anyone else's.
MonicaP at December 2, 2009 10:08 AM
"Has it ever occurred to you that your demand of "respect" for "parents" is in itself antagonizing to people who are not "parents"?"
It's not only occurred to me, but it's pretty obvious. My question is why?
Anyone with years of experience in any other field would not be criticized for expecting respect for their experience. But if a parent asks for the same, it's maddening to you.
I'm not criticizing your choice not to be a parent. Nothing I have said should enrage non-parents the way it seems to do.
lovelysoul at December 2, 2009 10:09 AM
By that logic, should we not celebrate birthdays either? After all, people have been turning another year older since the beginning of time. Why should we take a day to celebrate and make that person feel special?
The celebration of birthdays is a relatively new occurrence. New in the sense that for thousands of years, people did NOT celebrate birthdays. My mother and my 85 yr old grandmother do not know their actual birth dates. Why? Because where they come from, everybody just turns a year older when the new year comes around.
This recurring insistence that there must be groups of people having to be "special" is so puzzling to me.
Anybody ever see the movie The Incredibles? This insistence on the word "special" brings to mind this quote:
Helen Parr (to her son): "Everyone's special, Dash."
Dash: "Which is another way of saying no one is."
Jen Wading at December 2, 2009 10:15 AM
This attitude is a little crochety if you ask me. I hope I never get so cynical I resent a pregnant woman getting her belly rubbed.
I'm not upset by pregnant women getting attention...I brought this up because you insist on claiming that pregnant women aren't venerated in our society...that parenthood is seen as less than any other occupation...and that you are tired of being disregarded.
Parents are not disregarded in this society...their needs are regarded before everyone else. You don't see news articles about the 'plucky single woman who made it', you don't see any articles about the strong single father who made it (I never have) but how many articles have you seen about the single mom making it on her own...and how can we help? Parents (and mothers especially) are venerated in this society. What I cannot figure out, is why you think that is unilaterally justified, and why you keep angling for more respect.
-Julie
JulieW at December 2, 2009 10:15 AM
"And why does your opinion hold more weight than crackhead Jane's?"
I think you've lost it if you can't see why it should. On parenting, at least. She can probably offer much insight into addiction. On that, I'd give her view a lot more weight than a teetotaler.
lovelysoul at December 2, 2009 10:15 AM
Anyone with years of experience in any other field would not be criticized for expecting respect for their experience. But if a parent asks for the same, it's maddening to you.
Part of the issue is that there's no real way to judge whether your experience makes you an expert or an amateur with a lot of time in grade. (I don't mean YOU here. I know very little about you. I mean "you" as in "parents.") Parenting isn't like other fields in that you don't necessarily get better with more experience. Sometimes you just get older. Your kids are never "done," so we can never see the finished product. Your kids don't live in a vacuum, so we never know whether they turned out well because of you or despite you. And, in the end, you are not an expert in every child. You are potentially an expert in your child only.
I can't imagine how frustrating that is, but it shouldn't come as a surprise. Society has a strong love-hate relationship with parenting.
I think you've lost it if you can't see why it should.
On the contrary, Jane may have a lot of wisdom regarding what NOT to do.
MonicaP at December 2, 2009 10:20 AM
But if a parent asks for the same, it's maddening to you.
It's maddening because it's being demanded. Who ever wants to give freely - however well deserved it may be - when there are demands being made?
What you'll end up with is begrudging and stubborn resistance when you make demands. It's simple as that.
Jen Wading at December 2, 2009 10:26 AM
"Part of the issue is that there's no real way to judge whether your experience makes you an expert or an amateur with a lot of time in grade."
I guess this is the essence of respect that I mean. I would expect you to give me the benefit of the doubt. Just as I would do for you. I don't know if you're a good newspaper editor or not. I can tell that you can write well, but I'm not asking to see your columns or degree as proof. If you tell me something about the newspaper business, I'm going to presume you know what you're talking about - especially more than me, because I've never been an editor.
lovelysoul at December 2, 2009 10:28 AM
Lovelysoul, I really wish that we could find a way to convey that NONE of the comments made here were EVER about you or your parenting.
Until this issue came about, from what I can tell from reading the message boards for several months, you were a well respected member of the Advice Goddess society. However, you decided to take previous comments personally.
The issue at hand really was that nonparents, like Amy herself, don't get any respect that their opinions could be valid just because she has never had a child.
My whole family has been the parents to my niece. My sister and her husband have had very strange work schedules and babysitter habits, so my niece has had several "mommy" figures where soul care of her has been given to my mother, myself and my sister at any given time. We are all parents to her.
I didn't conceive, carry or give life to this child, but I believe I know a little bit about how to properly care for a child. Is my opinion invalid because I didn't "squeeze her out?"
MizB at December 2, 2009 10:35 AM
I guess this is the essence of respect that I mean. I would expect you to give me the benefit of the doubt. Just as I would do for you.
That is an interesting idea. I treat people with general civility when I first encounter them, but I don't trust that they are an expert in their business without further vetting. I interview doctors and lawyers, quiz therapists, and take all parenting information provided by parents with the grain of salt. It isn't a separation or distinction that I give parents, I don't believe that anyone is as good at their job as they believe...me included.
So, by your definition, I will never give you the 'respect' that you expect simply because I have no real way of vetting your knowledge. By that standard, if both you and Amy were giving parenting advice, I would usually believe Amy more, but only because she backs her advice with science rather than personal (anecdotal) experience.
-Julie
JulieW at December 2, 2009 10:38 AM
"Lovelysoul, I really wish that we could find a way to convey that NONE of the comments made here were EVER about you or your parenting. "
Please know that I don't feel that anyone here has been disrepectful to my parenting, or attacked me personally as a mom. And I appreciate that.
lovelysoul at December 2, 2009 10:41 AM
I guess this is the essence of respect that I mean. I would expect you to give me the benefit of the doubt. Just as I would do for you.
I'm not insisting that you give me the benefit of the doubt, though: At least, I wouldn't be if we were discussing a media issue. I'm glad you brought that up, though, because I think it illustrates the point well. I have been known to defend some media practices that others find repugnant -- say, a reporter's obligation to hide a source's identity if she has promised she would, even if that source should be in prison. I am convinced I am right. An attorney would have an entirely different view of it, and his opinion would be just as valid as mine.
I'm not defending moral relevancy here, but I am trying to point out that your role as a parent only lets you see things from a different vantage point. It doesn't give you a better view. You're getting as much respect as anyone else.
MonicaP at December 2, 2009 10:41 AM
"I'm not defending moral relevancy here, but I am trying to point out that your role as a parent only lets you see things from a different vantage point. It doesn't give you a better view. You're getting as much respect as anyone else."
Thank you MonciaP! Thats what, I think, we've all been trying to say.
MizB at December 2, 2009 10:46 AM
"I am trying to point out that your role as a parent only lets you see things from a different vantage point. It doesn't give you a better view."
I disagree. It does give me a better view - a better understanding of the day-to-day demands of what it takes to be a good parent. That doesn't mean that I am right on every issue - parents disagree among themselves about parenting issues, just as journalists do.
But I don't know what it's like to BE a journalist - what that takes, day-to-day, on the job. You do. I don't. I can discuss newspapers, and related issues, but I wouldn't presume to say I know as much about your job as you do. That is the absurd assertion that has started this debate.
lovelysoul at December 2, 2009 10:51 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/11/29/super_dog_nanny.html#comment-1680294">comment from lovelysoulI don't know if you're a good newspaper editor or not. I can tell that you can write well, but I'm not asking to see your columns or degree as proof. If you tell me something about the newspaper business, I'm going to presume you know what you're talking about - especially more than me, because I've never been an editor.
I never presume people know what they're talking about, and I don't have a degree in journalism (I think you're an ass if you get one -- I learned how to write a lede, which is the first paragraph of a story, and headlines, and how to lay out a paper, too, in about an hour in my high school journalism class).
I study very hard and think a lot and I think people can assess from my work what my methods and thinking are and whether I'm worthwhile to read.
As MizB said you're just taking this way too personally.
MizB: "Lovelysoul, I really wish that we could find a way to convey that NONE of the comments made here were EVER about you or your parenting. Until this issue came about, from what I can tell from reading the message boards for several months, you were a well respected member of the Advice Goddess society. However, you decided to take previous comments personally. The issue at hand really was that nonparents, like Amy herself, don't get any respect that their opinions could be valid just because she has never had a child. "
Amy Alkon at December 2, 2009 11:04 AM
But I don't know what it's like to BE a journalist - what that takes, day-to-day, on the job. You do. I don't. I can discuss newspapers, and related issues, but I wouldn't presume to say I know as much about your job as you do. That is the absurd assertion that has started this debate.
You are correct that this is an absurd debate...but I disagree why it is absurd.
A person being a parent does not automatically mean that person knows more about parenting than any person who is not a parent. That is the entire point of this debate. Jane the crackhead is the perfect example. Jane gave birth and may have attempted to raise the kid for awhile, but you cannot tell me that Jane the crackhead should be giving parenting advice.
"But Wait", you say...only good parents should be given that respect as experts in their field. By saying that, you are acknowledging that we non-parents are able to distinguish between good parenting and bad parenting...invalidating your argument.
Some people know a great deal about parenting, some people don't. A person being a parent is not the distinguishing factor.
My personal theory is that parenting skill of parents falls along the bell curve with the two standard deviations of the mean of parents being in the center with average parenting ability. Everyone thinks that they are great parents, but only 2% are. 2% fall under that low end marker at well, just like Jane the crackhead.
For the parents in the middle, their parenting skill is sufficient enough to get them a passing score...the outcome of the child itself depends upon how much that child's personality can tolerate the everyday mistakes that most parents make. That is my explanation how two kids can come from the same parents, one turning out great and the other huffing paint thinner in a garage somewhere. The huffer's temperament had a smaller allowance for error in the parent's judgment and actions.
-Julie
JulieW at December 2, 2009 11:19 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/11/29/super_dog_nanny.html#comment-1680310">comment from JulieWThat is my explanation how two kids can come from the same parents, one turning out great and the other huffing paint thinner in a garage somewhere. The huffer's temperament had a smaller allowance for error in the parent's judgment and actions. -Julie
Actually, who we are seems to be a combination of genes and environment (and how genes react to environmental factors). So, one kid can get treated horribly in childhood and turn into, say, a serial killer, and another will. How they're raised and what their biology is contributes to the outcome.
Amy Alkon at December 2, 2009 1:41 PM
That is very true. I did not appreciate the power of genes until I had kids. Even their interests seem influenced by genetics.
I think, even more than discipline, the most important aspect of being a good parent is being a good person. Strange as it sounds, I don't recall my parents ever disciplining me. They were pretty lax (or maybe I just didn't need much), but they were extremely ethical, good people.
Even my brother, who is mentally-challenged, is a very ethical person. He doesn't drink, do drugs, or sleep around, and he looks after his neighbors. With his mental limitations, he could've gotten into so much trouble, as we've seen with others like him, but my parents were such good role models that it gave him those lasting values.
lovelysoul at December 2, 2009 3:25 PM
lovelysoul Mine was. My son almost died, and a friend's baby did die in childbirth. Giving birth IS a medical emergency.
Exceptions, not rules. If giving birth were a medical emergency, the race would not have endured. Animals give birth all the time without the benefit of having their legs propped up with some doctor looking up inside them waiting for the baby to come out, which will do without his assistance. If giving birth is a medical emergency, we're about the only nation that thinks so. No other industrialized nation agrees.
Patrick at December 2, 2009 4:15 PM
I would like some proof, besides "oh back in the old days women dropped like flies while giving birth" that its a medical emergency.
Women dropped like flies when giving birth back in the days when women were strapped into corsets practically at birth.
Patrick at December 2, 2009 4:28 PM
Perhaps your definition of a medical emergency is different than mine. To me, a situation that is life-threatening consitutes a medical emergency.
Human babies don't always come out without assistance. Babies and mothers routinely died in childbirth before we began having mothers deliver in hospitals, with medical assistance. Ask your grandmother.
lovelysoul at December 2, 2009 4:29 PM
Parents SUCK!
Patrick at December 2, 2009 4:30 PM
(Not really, but I couldn't resist.)
Patrick at December 2, 2009 4:31 PM
Lovelysoul, people are not saying that childbirth can't dangerous. What they are saying that the medical community looks first to letting nature do it's birthing thing before medicine intervenes. The medical community has a watching brief and generally doesn't need to intervene as such. This makes it different from a lot of other areas that involve the medical community.
AntoniaB at December 3, 2009 6:14 AM
Lovelysoul, people are not saying that childbirth can't dangerous.
I just thought of another metaphor. No one would ever call driving a car an emergency. However, about 115 people die every day in car wrecks in the US. That is about 42,000 people per year dying in car wrecks.
www.car-accidents.com/pages/stats.html
In the US there is only about 13 maternal deaths per 100,000 live births in the US. Coupled with the death of infants at 679 per 100,000 births, that takes us to 692 deaths lost per 100,000 births, or a death rate of 0.00692. The US has about 4 million births each year leaving us with an average of about 27,680 deaths per year associated with childbirth.
www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/24/AR2007082401321.html
www.susps.org/overview/birthrates.html
You are more likely to die on the drive to the hospital to give birth than you are to die during childbirth in this country. That is why we are all saying that childbirth isn't a medical emergency. Women in labor are monitored so closely most of the time to attempt to catch problems before the occur (and reduce malpractice cases)...but even that is becoming excessive. Women are now give the option of getting a c-section without any medical need just so that they don't have to 'risk it' or deal with the more distasteful parts of labor.
I'm not talking about denying women medical care, but going into labor is not like having a heart attack. It is urgent, but not emergent.
-Julie
JulieW at December 3, 2009 10:16 AM
Julie, with all due resect, you don't know anything about labor and how dangerous it is. You haven't seen the agony of a friend who has lost a baby in childbirth. I have. It's not just the mothers that die, but the babies too.
No one takes you to a hospital when you get into your car to drive. That, in itself, is not a life-threatening situation. Labor is. That is why when a woman goes onto labor, we treat it like the medical emergency it is.
Hopefully, everything will go fine, but many times it doesn't, and intervention is needed. The reason we don't have a lot MORE deaths is because of this medical treatment and monitoring.
My son's heartbeat dropped dangerously low during labor, and I had to be rushed in for an emergency c-section. If I had been laboring at home, he certainly would've died, and I might have.
Trust me, there is nothing less tasteful than a c-section. You have a lifetime scar and must recuperate for weeks afterwards. It's not pretty. I gave birth to my daughter naturally, which, after a section, is called a V-back, and that is much better way.
But some women aren't so lucky and must continue to deliver by c-section if they had one the first time, or because of other complications, so some do schedule this for convenience, but few mothers want to have a c-section if they can avoid it.
lovelysoul at December 3, 2009 10:43 AM
Childbirth death rates have actually been rising in the US. But it was 1 in 100 just 90 years ago:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20427256/
lovelysoul at December 3, 2009 10:56 AM
with all due resect
I always laugh when I hear this phrase...it is silly people's way of attempting to avoid repercussions from insulting someone.
you don't know anything about labor and how dangerous it is.
I know more than you might realize. Once again, just because I haven't experienced it myself doesn't mean I don't understand it and can't do the math based upon the statistics available. If you'd read the information that I provided above, you would have seen that even before regular hospitalization of laboring women, there was only about a 1% chance of death during childbirth, and when hospitals first created labor wards, a woman had a greater chance of dying if she went to the hospital.
Trust me, there is nothing less tasteful than a c-section. You have a lifetime scar and must recuperate for weeks afterwards. It's not pretty. I gave birth to my daughter naturally, which, after a section, is called a V-back, and that is much better way.
Yes, but many women are electing to have c-sections when there isn't a medical indication...(is there an echo in here?)
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=3291512&page=1
Women have been freaked out so much over the relatively small risk of complications of birth, or the fear of the pain associated with it that many are just forgoing it all together and scheduling unneeded surgery. This phenomenon is often called 'too posh to push'.
www.orlandosentinel.com/features/family/orl-celebrities-csections-moms-photos,0,6210441.photogallery
health.usnews.com/usnews/health/articles/020805/archive_022196.htm
abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=3291512&page=1
No one takes you to a hospital when you get into your car to drive. That, in itself, is not a life-threatening situation. Labor is. That is why when a woman goes onto labor, we treat it like the medical emergency it is
Childbirth is not treated like a medical emergency...it is treated like an elective medical procedure, which is exactly what it is. You pick a hospital and a doctor, get treatment in advance, ensure that you are healthy enough for labor, monitor for any issues, etc. Most laboring women are monitored, given palliative assistance, and deliver their babies without issue. Yes there sometimes complications that can cause death to mother and child...but we saw this week how a woman died getting a butt lift. Would you consider cosmetic surgery an emergency now too? Just because something can cause death and requires hospitalization does not make it an emergency.
Your anecdotal stories don't make childbirth an emergency. Neither to mine (I have a few that I could share). The numbers don't lie...and it is obvious from your responses that you aren't even reading my posts...the numbers I quoted included death of the mother and death of the child together. You are still more likely to die in a car wreck than suffer a death (mother or child) while giving birth. Childbirth is not an emergency.
-Julie
JulieW at December 3, 2009 11:13 AM
Julie, with all due resect, you don't know anything about labor and how dangerous it is. You haven't seen the agony of a friend who has lost a baby in childbirth. I have. It's not just the mothers that die, but the babies too.
The fact that Julie does not have personal experience with labor does not mean she doesn't know anything about it, which cycles back to what we've been talking about for days: that people can know what they're talking about without direct person experience. If I were a NICU nurse, I might think most children had life-threatening illnesses and injuries at birth. But they clearly don't.
Childbirth can easily become a medical emergency, which is why I'm very glad that women have access to hospitals, but the fact that women still give birth at home and in birthing centers with only the help of midwives shows that it is not, in and of itself, a medical emergency.
There are many reasons for the decrease in maternal and infant mortality, some of which are improvements in maternal health and prenatal care and education. And yes, timely medical intervention has saved more than a few lives. I have a friend who likely would have died in childbirth without a C-section. I have another friend who had three children at home with the help of a midwife. Since I haven't witnessed the outcome of all births in this country, and neither have you, I'll trust the numbers.
If hospitalization were the whole story, the US would be leading the way in mother and child survivability, yet we are getting our asses handed to us by pretty much the rest of the modern world. The article you link to actually cites the increase in C-sections as a reason for the uptick in infant deaths.
No one has said that childbirth isn't dangerous or that children and mothers don't sometimes die. Some have speculated that the rise in infant mortality rates is connected to maternal obesity, diabetes and high blood pressure, and the increase in multiple births because of fertility treatments. And socioeconomic status plays a huge role.
MonicaP at December 3, 2009 11:16 AM
That's just it. Crisis like mine, where the baby nearly died, do not go into the statistics. Only if the baby or mother DOES die, and often, not even then, as the hospitals like to attribute it to some other cause besides childbirth (my friend had sue the hospital to get all the pertinent fetal records to show her child was, in fact, alive prior to birth). So, we have no idea how many mothers and babies *almost* died, just the ones who did.
"...the fact that women still give birth at home and in birthing centers with only the help of midwives shows that it is not, in and of itself, a medical emergency." My friend's baby died in a birthing center of a hospital under the care of a midwife. There is tremendous pressure for women to do this "naturally", so a lot of women go this route, but you have no idea how many, like her, regret the decision. How many labored too long, or whose childen suffered unnecessary complications. Stats aren't going to tell you that.
I have given birth, and I guarantee that you would understand what a life-threatening situation it is if you had gone through it yourselves. But, once again, it's a part of this smug, "I don't have to be a parent to know all about it" attitude.
I can't believe you're even stooping so low as to argue this. Is it so important to feel superior to mothers that you must quibble over the meaning of "medical emergency"? What exactly IS your point? That we shouldn't feel like our lives, and that of our babies, are on the line? That we shouldn't feel so special that we deserve medical monitoring?
You give birth and see how scary and painful it is. Then, come tell me how a mother should feel when her water breaks. I felt it was a "medical emergency", so I got myself to the hospital - good thing, since, without doing so, my child or I could've died. That, to me, qualifies it as a "medical emergency". If you have another definition, and it's so important that you view it otherwise, fine. You can make your own choices if or when it happens to you. But you don't have a right to tell me how I should feel about my own health and well-being.
lovelysoul at December 3, 2009 12:13 PM
I have given birth, and I guarantee that you would understand what a life-threatening situation it is if you had gone through it yourselves. But, once again, it's a part of this smug, "I don't have to be a parent to know all about it" attitude.
We keep coming back to this, and I don't know how else I can say this that it makes sense, but I'll give it a shot: Your personal experiences do not reflect all there is to know of reality. I don't "know all about it," but neither do you.
That we shouldn't feel like our lives, and that of our babies, are on the line? That we shouldn't feel so special that we deserve medical monitoring?
I'm not sure where you're getting this, especially since I went out of my way to say that I'm glad women have access to monitoring.
You give birth and see how scary and painful it is. Then, come tell me how a mother should feel when her water breaks. I felt it was a "medical emergency", so I got myself to the hospital - good thing, since, without doing so, my child or I could've died. That, to me, qualifies it as a "medical emergency".
Ok, one more time: This isn't about you. YOUR childbirth turned into a medical emergency. I am glad you got to a hospital and that you and your child survived. Childbirth, in general, is not a medical emergency, as reflected in the fact that the vast majority of children are born with no major problems. And just because a woman is scared and in pain and "feels" she is having a medical emergency doesn't mean she actually is having a medical emergency.
MonicaP at December 3, 2009 12:37 PM
Monica, Julie, I think it's time we gave up. Lovelysoul cannot see past her own issue and her own dislike of non-parents' opinions. This battle is going to rage until we give in or give up.
She wants to be angry and offended at our comments and she wants to find a way that we are attacking her and show us that ONLY parents know what is good for kids.
MizB at December 3, 2009 12:56 PM
I had no idea whether my labor might become fatal or not. No parent does. But we know it is potentially life-threatening, which means a laboring mother shouldn't take her sweet time getting to the hospital (or the midwife's) so she CAN be assessed and monitored. It is a time of some urgency, which, to me, qualifies it as a "medical emergency" - not just for myself, but for any laboring mother.
If her water breaks, I wouldn't tell her to go bowling, out to dinner, or go have her hair and nails done. She needs to get to the hospital quickly - if only by ambulance - which is why we do that. I don't think they train paramedics to tell laboring moms it's no big deal and just to walk there themselves.
Going into labor is an urgent situation where a womans needs fast medical attention. That makes it an emergency. The outcome, assuming it's good, isn't what makes it an emergency or not. The urgency of getting proper medical care and assessment is what makes it an emergency.
That's my definition. Like I said, you can believe differently, so maybe it's just semantics.
lovelysoul at December 3, 2009 1:01 PM
I have given birth, and I guarantee that you would understand what a life-threatening situation it is if you had gone through it yourselves.
Once again, you feel that no one can provide any input unless they have gestated...what a silly idea. Did you refuse medical treatment until you found a doctor that had given birth? Why not..no one can know if it is an emergency unless they've given birth, right?
One cannot judge a medical emergency conclusively by whether the patient thinks that it is. Many women die of heard attacks because they don't see their symptoms as serious. Many people go to emergency rooms with chest pain that turns out to be nothing more than indigestion. A medical emergency isn't in the eye of the beholder...it is in the imminent death of the patient.
But, once again, it's a part of this smug, "I don't have to be a parent to know all about it" attitude.
Actually, it is all about the smug idea that, "I don't need to be a parent to own a dictionary."
I can't believe you're even stooping so low as to argue this.
Women are being terrified on a daily basis about the 'horrible things' that happen 'all the time' during childbirth, from urinary problems, to prolapse, to reduced sexual function, to infant death. It has reached a point where women would rather endure surgery than do what their body was evolutionarily made for! Those elective c-section babies are taken earlier to ensure that labor never starts...sometimes causing additional complications for the baby that everyone claims to be attempting to protect!
This isn't a 'stoop low' issue...this is a health issue that impacts the health of not only the woman, but also the health of all of those children, and how much it costs to bring them into the world. The fact that you gave birth twice twenty years ago but obviously have no knowledge of this issue could easily mean that I know more about this issue than you do.
What exactly IS your point?
That although some childbirth experiences become medical emergencies, not every childbirth is a medical emergency...and that women need to get this information so we don't create a birthing situation where the fear and convenience of the mother supersede the health and welfare of the child.
You give birth and see how scary and painful it is. Then, come tell me how a mother should feel when her water breaks. I felt it was a "medical emergency"...But you don't have a right to tell me how I should feel about my own health and well-being.
Once again, I don't care how you 'feel'. Words have definitions that have nothing to do with you 'feeling' that it is something when it isn't. If I 'feel' that I am the smartest person on the planet, does that make it so?
From your story, taken at face value, your first child birthing experience was a medical emergency, because both you and your son were going to suffer serious injury or death if medical attention wasn't given. That doesn't mean that the birth of every child is a medical emergency. Childbirth in this country is an elective medical procedure that has risks, like all others. The vast majority of women come through with healthy babies and healthy mothers with only monitoring and palliative treatment. That does not a medical emergency make.
-Julie
JulieW at December 3, 2009 1:02 PM
Childbirth in this country is an elective medical procedure that has risks, like all others.
And for the record, I agree that we should do all that we can to minimize those risks and reduce the effect of them on mother and child.
-Julie
JulieW at December 3, 2009 1:32 PM
Lovelysoul - you said it yourself. There's ample *urgency* because it *might* be an emergency. But the urgency doesn't equal emergency.
I think some of us are worried you're fanning the flames of fear over something that can be scary enough as it is. Of course we should take take childbirth seriously, but scaring women out of their wits is not helpful.
AntoniaB at December 3, 2009 2:50 PM
Regarding the meanings of "respect":
Common courtesy is mandatory. Respect is not.
Courtesy is your right. Respect is a privilege - such as being paid for your skills because they're GOOD enough to be paid for.
And, from the above, one can infer that you don't have to earn common courtesy.
From Miss Manners:
(Miss Manners) admits that the term "respect" is rather loosely used in the manners business. This leads to the sort of argument in which a parent says, "You have to show more respect for Granny," and the child replies, "Why, since she just got out of jail for petty larceny?"
The sort of respect to which the parent is referring is a part of good manners. It means exhibiting consideration toward everyone and showing special deference to those who are older or in a position of authority.
But the child hears the word to mean the genuine admiration felt for someone who has proved himself to be worthy of it. That sort of respect is, indeed, a thing apart, which etiquette cannot mandate.
Manners require only that people show respect, although with the secret hope that the outward form will become internalized. What people feel as they size up individuals is up to them.
lenona at December 3, 2009 3:33 PM
lovelysoul: Julie, with all due resect, you don't know anything about labor and how dangerous it is. You haven't seen the agony of a friend who has lost a baby in childbirth. I have. It's not just the mothers that die, but the babies too.
This is a fallacy of logic. Julie gave you hard statistics to prove that childbirth is not a medical emergency, and you're coming back with an emotional appeal. Dramatizing a relatively trivial amount of cases doesn't change the fact that the frequency with which it occurs is trivial.
People sometimes choke to death while eating. Make someone's struggles to take her next breath as dramatic as you like, the choking victim could even leave her children orphans when she dies. That doesn't change the fact that eating is not a medical emergency.
Patrick at December 3, 2009 11:35 PM
lovelysoul: with all due resect
JulieW: I always laugh when I hear this phrase...it is silly people's way of attempting to avoid repercussions from insulting someone.
I find that phrase to be utterly irresistible. It's so English in the respect that it seems to say something, when in fact, it says nothing.
From Evita: On the ninth, February, 1935, a polo match between the Argentine players and the touring British side. The British ambassador said he had never seen a social occasion quite like it...
The British Ambassador is saying nothing, but couching it as a compliment. He could have seen the event as positively horrendous and still "never seen a social occasion quite like it..." in the respect that he's never seen anything so horrendous. Or he could have seen it as totally uninteresting, but happened to notice some trivial uninteresting difference from any other social occasion, thus never seen any other social occasion quite like it.
In the phrase, "with all due respect," the operative word is "due." I could tender that phrase to someone whom I think deserves absolutely no respect. Therefore, saying "with all due respect [i.e. no respect]," can even be as an insult. Which is the way I used it most often when I was in the army. "With all due respect, Sergeant/Captain/First Sergeant," which is to say you're a self-absorbed dipshit entitled to about as much respect as a garden slug.
Patrick at December 3, 2009 11:51 PM
This all started because someone complained that childbirth was treated LIKE a "medical emergency", and I said it should be. I think all of us agree that it should be treated LIKE one, whether or not it becomes one.
Eating is a terrible analogy, since all of us eat everyday. Unlike eating, a woman does not give birth every day. It is a rare event.
If you have chest pains, I bet the paramedics will treat it as a "medical emergency". They will rush you to the hospital for screening and monitoring, just like a pregnant woman, because both conditions are potentially life-threatening. Even if it turns out to be indigestion, it is still treated as a "medical emergency". So, that is my definition of "medical emergency", but feel free, if you should have chest pains, to just reject treatment. Maybe it's just indigestion. That's fine.
But I think most pregnant women, who are in labor, already KNOW that they're in a "medical emergency". Their lives - and that of their unborn children - are on the line.
That's why they rush you to the hospital. I'm not fanning the flames of fear, but if so, good. I would tell any laboring woman: Be afraid, you are about to try to push a bowling ball through a straw. Hopefully, you will be one of the blessed few who has no complications and a smooth labor...but don't count on it.
lovelysoul at December 4, 2009 4:56 PM
The way you selectively ignore any sort of reasoned argument to persist on your outdated personal anecdotes as evidence just points to your unique brand of genius.
Let's just forgo all rational discussion to pay homage to your sage experience because (gasp) you gave birth!!! and nearly died!!! All women who have never given birth must pay heed to LS's Special Moment!
Let me just leave you with this to ponder:
Why do people with the least to say feel the need to go on so long?
Jen Wading at December 4, 2009 11:03 PM
I didn't continue this childbirth discussion. I was happy to let it die. I made no more comments on this thread for an entire day, after Patrick posted his little "parents suck" joke. But some others couldn't resist picking it up again, and wouldn't quit until you made me say that childbirth shouldn't be considered a "medical emergency."
I can't say that because I don't believe that. So, I said, "Maybe it just comes down to semantics". We can have different definitions of "medical emergency." You have yours; I have mine. But, no, it couldn't be dropped then either! So why don't ask yourselves why you keep arguing this?
lovelysoul at December 5, 2009 6:08 AM
We're not going to agree, you're right. Those of us who take issue with you are concerned that your scary experience has skewed your vision. We see comments like: 'Hopefully, you will be one of the blessed few who has no complications and a smooth labor' as showing that your terrifying experience has affected you this way. I feel very bad for you that to this day you're haven't made your peace with what happened. I can't begin to imagine what it was like.
At the same time, some of us are concerned that this skewed vision will give unnecessary fear and stress to women who are already scared. It's unhelpful to stress all the things that can go wrong. Be aware, yes, prepare, yes - make statements indicating that few labors go without complications - don't do that, not helpful.
AntoniaB at December 5, 2009 9:43 AM
I think all of us agree that it should be treated LIKE one, whether or not it becomes one.
Absolutely not. It should be treated LIKE a medical emergency IF it becomes one.
That's why they rush you to the hospital.
That's assuming every childbirth takes place in a hospital. Ever heard of a birthing center? Or a woman delivering at home? Simplistically, pregnant women can fall into the category of high-risk or low-risk pregnancy. That categorization dictates what type of delivery procedures are most suitable when a delivery occurs. Not every childbirth arises from a high-risk pregnancy that necessitates your melodramatic characterization of being rushed to the hospital.
I'm not fanning the flames of fear, but if so, good.
Now that's just downright ignorant. And you wonder why you don't get receive "respect"? Spiteful statements such as that illustrate why you don't deserve it.
Jen Wading at December 5, 2009 9:57 AM
That's not a spiteful statement. I don't try to scare pregnant women, but they should be aware that many deliveries do not go smoothly, and it is a life-threatening situation.
Talk to mothers, and you'll find that many deliveries have complications - not usually fatal but not smooth either. It's not just my experience, which was scary. But a few years after that, I watched my friend lose her baby by putting too much faith in a midwife/birthing center and the whole "natural" concept - as in childbirth is "so natural" that it's not dangerous. THAT is the wrong message to spread.
lovelysoul at December 5, 2009 1:11 PM
As someone who would like to have children in the future, I have talked to many, many mothers. I also read as much as I can to keep myself informed about pregnancy and childbirth. I come from an extremely large extended family spread out all over the US and in the UK. The topic of pregnancy and childbirth is one that arises frequently, since with a large family, someone always seems to be pregnant. In addition, I have a wide network of female friends & acquaintances. A good number of them currently live abroad and gave birth to children in Europe and Asia.
I could detail each individual's personal anecdotes about her childbirth experiences here, but I won't, as it's irrelevant. What I found is that almost all of them said to me, in one manner or another: "This was what happened to me, but take it with a grain of salt. Every woman's experience depends on different factors." If there is any message that I find worth spreading, it's that one.
There is no simplistic one-size-fits-all statement that any ONE woman can make to apply to ALL women in this regard. Choose to say what you want to say. You'll find that women who educate themselves on a topic like this are not going to lend credence to someone who has a troubled and distorted bias like yours.
Jen Wading at December 6, 2009 10:28 PM
"What I found is that almost all of them said to me, in one manner or another: "This was what happened to me, but take it with a grain of salt."
That's because they don't want to scare you, Jen. No one wants to frighten a young woman away from having children by telling her how awful childbirth can truly be. I actually remember asking my friends why they didn't tell me about certain aspects of it, and that's what they said.
When I was in labor with my daughter, a nurse at the hospital explained to me that women who regularly have menstrual cramps tend to have easier labors. This makes sense because the uterus is contracting - it's like it's practicing each month for labor. Studies have apparently proven this. I wish I had known it the first time.
I never have menstrual cramps, so my contractions were ineffective and, without a drug (Pitocin) to help that along, I would likely always have long, painful labors. Without Pitocin, my son's labor was 26 hrs (and had to have an emergency c-section). With Pitocin, and a spinal block, my daughter's labor was only 6 hrs and an extremely pleasant experience.
So, I usually tell young women that. I'm all for for doing it naturally if you can, but not all of us are made for that, so, when the time comes, don't be against medical assistance and pain relief if you need it.
lovelysoul at December 7, 2009 6:00 AM
That's because they don't want to scare you, Jen.
This is hilarious. You presume to know my family and friends, now, too? And that you have a special window to peer into their minds and intentions? And you've understood the context of all the numerous conversations I have conducted with them over the course of the last several years?
Face it, LS. You just desperately need to be right about something. And you'll say anything, however stupid. Doesn't fool anybody.
Jen Wading at December 7, 2009 9:34 AM
Jen, I was trying to be helpful - tell you some things I wish others had told me beforehand. No one can really prepare you for childbirth, but, sometimes, it's easier for those who aren't close to you to give the direct, blunt information.
When you become pregnant, there'll be a lot of pressure to do it "naturally". Lamaze, as well as many other parents, will cover that angle. But few will tell you the other side - that laboring long and hard, trying to do it so "naturally", can pose a threat to your well-being and that of your baby.
I was just trying to tell you that there's no need to endure a long, agonizing labor (like I did) to prove you're a "natural woman" or supermom or something. Death is natural too, but it's not the outcome anyone wants. Long labors are stressful for both baby and mother. Don't feel guilty about using medical intervention and drugs if necessary.
That's what my experience, as well as my friend's baby's death, has taught me, and I would be a remiss not to share what I've learned with young women, such as yourself, who will someday face the challenge of giving birth, and making those decisions about pain relief and medical interventions. I'm sorry you didn't take this as helpful because that's how it was intended.
lovelysoul at December 7, 2009 10:13 AM
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