So, Amy Alkon, How Were YOU Raised?!
In the wake of my LA Times op-ed on screaming children on planes and the people who "parent" them (published in papers almost from here to Dubai, including papers across Australia...and garnering hate mail from all of those places), many people wanted to know what I was like as a child; or, more specifically, how I was parented.
I do describe my childhood in the piece: Raised by parents I refer to as "loving fascists." I wrote that, when I was a kid, I believed that I could flap my arms and fly, but the idea that I could ever be loud in a public place or kick the back of somebody's seat in a movie theater did not exist for me in what was possible in the known universe.
Here's a little something I cut from the "The Underparented Child" chapter of my book before publication (went and searched for it in an earlier version of the manuscript):
I asked my dad whether my two sisters and I ever threw screaming fits as children. He said "No, not after you were little babies," and added, "We always talked to you girls as adults, and expected you to act like adults when we took you to restaurants or other adult places. You were children, so you didn't always do the right thing. But, we'd say, 'Girls, that's not done here,' and you'd listen."
Welcome to the lost art of parenting!
For more on how I behaved and why, I again went to the source. And sorry for not posting this sooner. Been sick. It was all I could do for a week to hang my hoarse head over the massive humidifier Gregg got me in hopes of helping me get my voice back.
My dad wrote:
Wednesday, November 25, 2009Hi Honey,
After you called Mother this morning, I went through our photo albums looking at the numerous pictures of you and your sisters as little girls. I really got a "kick" out of it. Mother said you wanted my comments on how we handled you from a conduct standpoint as little girls.
First of all, we never ever punished you or spanked you. You were lovingly raised and taught rightful procedure at every opportunity. Loving instruction and not discipline was the name of the game.
We were conscious of your conduct at all times and would tell you in the nicest manner if there was something you were doing that was not correct or polite or might reflect on you in a negative sense.
Our purpose was and is never to hurt you but to improve you in any way that we can ----and still is.
Your loving Papa
Basically, there was a certain level of civilized and considerate behavior expected of us. My parents made that expectation completely clear, and we really didn't conceive of ourselves having any other choice but to meet it.
This has a positive affect on me even today. This past week, I was sick as hell, slept for days, and couldn't speak. (My editorial assistant and Gregg found this hilarious. They'd talk and I'd type back on Skype.) But, sick as I was, I finished my column, to the usual level of quality, and sent it out on time. I always tell papers (in case they don't get the column because it's in their spam folder), "If I'm not in a coma or dead, you'll get the column."
Thanks, Mom and Dad!
Adorable pic, Amy! Is your sister as cute as you?
Flynne at December 9, 2009 7:20 AM
Hi Amy, listening to you on the Q cbc Radio. You are exactly like me, and I have tried the high road/ show by example - but it doesn't work in the great scheme of things because we live in a polically incorrect world now, and there are so many people insecure rude people on their cell phones or walking straight into you - I find woman to be the worst offenders (it's Paris Hilton BFF world and I am disgusted!!) I have never felt so much hatred around woman towards woman - just don't get it and thank god for someone like you - I don't have to apologize for "SEEING RUDE PEOPLE" anymore - that's the problem in Canada, if you complain about anything - you are the looser - the name of the game is (I'm better than you and I'm going to prove it by ignoring you and not complaining because then others around me will think I'm the bad guy instead of pointing at the rudeness that started to confrontation.
TOO HIP TO BE KOOL
suzanne batinovic at December 9, 2009 7:26 AM
I liked what your dad wrote. You are very fortunate to have had parents like that.
Of course your parents may be fortunate that you and your sister were cooperative enough to respond well to loving and patient disciplinary methods. Some kids are natural born hell-raisers, mostly boys but some girls too, and I can think of several that just had to learn it all the hard way, no matter what.
vi at December 9, 2009 7:46 AM
Aww, thanks, Flynne.
And suzanne, thank you, too -- agree with you -- and so great you stand up to them. I'm always amazed by people who talk about being "judgmental" like it's a bad thing. As my late friend Cathy Seipp used to say when people accused her of making "value judgments," "I have values, so I make judgments."
Amy Alkon at December 9, 2009 7:50 AM
You weren't raised. You were reared. Crops are raised. Children are reared. But it's a distinction no longer made so feel free to ignore my crusty old affection for the language as she once were spoke.
That, by the way, is an adorable picture. I can see the woman you are in the child you were.
BlogDog at December 9, 2009 7:52 AM
Absolutely adorable photo, Amy!
Your parents sound pretty cool. Maybe they should teach some classes for the idiot parents out there.
Ann at December 9, 2009 7:55 AM
Awww, what a cutie pie!
Your parents sound like wonderful people; they must be very proud of you.
the other Beth at December 9, 2009 8:06 AM
Aww, thanks!
And BlogDog, thanks, but I go by the Elmore Leonard rules, talking the way people talk. I do have a hard time using "if" when I know it really should be "whether," etc., but my goal is to be readable.
Amy Alkon at December 9, 2009 8:17 AM
I became aware of the anti-judgement craze in the early 90s, when a law school roommate told me I was "being very judgmental" in my evaluation of an acquaintance. I was surprised to note that this wasn't considered a compliment, so I tried to be humorous: "We're in law school for God's sake! Can't we be judgmental?" Not so much.
I finally had to just say that I believe one of the important differences between humans and other members of the animal kingdom is the ability evaluate and reach conclusions regarding the data with which we come into contact.
Sadly, I've had the opportunity to memorize that phrase over the past 17 years.
Wood paneling! That brings back fond memories.
Robin at December 9, 2009 8:30 AM
I know, Amy. I know. (sigh)
I occasionally sputter up my curmudgeonly approach to usage but I'm resigned to the "living language." Not that seeing the word "bokay" in a florist's window doesn't make me cringe.
Having bought your book, I *know* you can use English like a native speaker (I kid! I kid!). But henceforth, I will just my yap about it.
Though seeing the female lead in a play at the Kennedy Center referred to in a review as the "patriarch" of the family almost made me plotz.
BlogDog at December 9, 2009 8:30 AM
According to my mother, her grandma's scold to my mom, her siblings, and cousins was "Breakfields don't do that!" Tried that with my kids, but couldn't quite pull it off.
And as everybody else has said, that's a cute little lady in the photo!
old rpm daddy at December 9, 2009 8:52 AM
My grandmother was an English teacher in Tupelo, Mississippi (Grandpop always claimed she taught Elvis, but he was prone storytelling artistic license). To this day, I can't hear someone say "lay down" without picturing the speaking laying an egg.
Robin at December 9, 2009 8:59 AM
My grandfather always admonished me to "remember your name". When I tried that on my daughter, she looked at me as if I'd lost my everlovin' mind.
Robin at December 9, 2009 9:02 AM
I teach my son to use pea-shooters (hard to find nowadays)to rifle middle-aged schoolmarm-nanny types in the buttocks.
Brogdin Buttlesworth at December 9, 2009 9:36 AM
"I believe one of the important differences between humans and other members of the animal kingdom is the ability to evaluate and reach conclusions regarding the data with which we come into contact" (Robin 8:30)
Even a cold-blooded rattlesnake with a brain the size of a marble knows it has to conserve it's venom, not lash out blindly, and it has the sense to decide whether an approaching creature is a deadly threat, just a nuisance, or potential prey. Any animal that blundered through life heedless of it's surroundings & fellow creatures would not last long (thanks, Darwin!). The only reason the yelling-on-their-cellphones-all-day types get away with it is because they're tolerated & sheltered by the rest of us.
Love that pic, Amy.
Martin at December 9, 2009 10:09 AM
> You weren't raised. You were reared.
Get a haircut!
Crid [CridComment @ gmail] at December 9, 2009 12:04 PM
> You weren't raised. You were reared.
Get a haircut!
And get off my damn lawn.
MonicaP at December 9, 2009 1:23 PM
Don't mouth off at your elders. Quit smoking those funny cigarettes. Stop listening to that GD music. Put a muffler on that car, clean your room, floss your teeth. Stop eating those hideous burgers, and don't hang out with those friends of yours, they're only gonna be trouble. Turn your hat around, pull your pants up and get a job.
Crid [CridComment @ gmail] at December 9, 2009 1:49 PM
Amy,
You are very lucky to have your parents. I suppose childrearing would come naturally to you. I have had to study books and successful parents.
My parents used to give me hell about the way I raised my boys. My mom told me that I talked to them too much. I said that I should hit them and shame them to ensure proper behavior.
My sister was "rearing" her two lovely well behaved girls while I reared my rambunctious boys. My mother looked askance at me. Then my sister had a boy. I guess that he can be a handfull. Suddenly, I became a wonderful parent.
PS. You have only become more sophisticated. You're still cute.
Jen at December 9, 2009 1:50 PM
That snapshot is pretty intense.
Crid [CridComment @ gmail] at December 9, 2009 1:52 PM
I suppose childrearing would come naturally to you.
I think the way a person is parented is often an indicator of how s/he will parent. My mom and dad had a parenting style very like Amy's parents and they raised (sorry) two decent, respectful people. In light of all the abusive, neglectful and clueless people out there having kids, it's probably the world's loss when people like Amy and me choose not to have children of our own. I consider the challenge of raising polite kids in a world in which the vast majority of their peers would be raised with different expectations. I don't like being called Beth by five-year-olds. I want to be called "Mrs. Lastname" or at the very least "Ms. Beth" but I don't want to have to tell a kid that. If he doesn't already know how to correctly address an adult, his parents haven't taught him and he's likely to be confused by my request.
Beth at December 9, 2009 3:07 PM
If your father's remembrance of your childhood is accurate, then God bless him. Hey, even if it's inaccurate, the man has fond memories and there's nothing wrong with letting someone romanticize if it doesn't hurt anyone. But to raise three daughters and never have to do more than "lovingly instruct" them? REALLY? I've seen lots of re-runs of Little House on the Prairie, and they are all sweet and wonderful, but unless your parents won the genetic lottery, I have never seen a family that has to do nothing more than gently guide their children toward the most rational decision rather than actually discipline them. Children are still children after all--they will not always make the right decisions, they are sometimes sneaky and can compete with their siblings. Sometimes they just don't feel like listening or they want to test boundaries. I have no business weighing in on this, since I was not there for your childhood and have no idea how you or your father experienced it, but wow. Just lovingly instructed? Were you the Stepford children maybe?
Kimmy at December 9, 2009 5:32 PM
> but I don't want to have to
> tell a kid that.
Agreed in all respects. Maybe it's my own Wasp heritage, but I don't like to have to discipline other people's kids; If I had faith (or interest) in that kind of constabulary impulse, I'd have kids of my own. Hence the blessing of the Alkons, who speak up at these boundary violations... While the rest of us on the airplane numb ourselves to the screaming hoards with chemical-y servings of wine in plastic bottles.
Any Mad Men fans out there? This review touched on this topic, and the daydreams (and day-nightmares) people have about the good ol' days when the village was more interested in other people's kids.
Crid [CridComment @ gmail] at December 9, 2009 5:34 PM
> But to raise three daughters and never
> have to do more than "lovingly
> instruct" them? REALLY?
There are many contexts, throughout life, where "loving" behaviors involve aggressive attention. She didn't say her parents smiled her way into adulthood.
Crid [CridComment @ gmail] at December 9, 2009 5:37 PM
And it's been forty years since I saw the movie, but if Stepford babies grow up to chase down car thieves, shouldn't we discuss whether it might not be worth it? Spiritless childhoods in exchange to boundary-observing adults?
Crid [CridComment @ gmail] at December 9, 2009 5:49 PM
"if Stepford babies grow up to chase down car thieves, shouldn't we discuss whether it might not be worth it?"
I guess you didn't see Robocop?
Kimmy at December 9, 2009 5:59 PM
They had clear standards and boundaries and maintained them. They wouldn't have tolerated acting out -- it wouldn't have gone well for us if we'd acted out. My parents are very considerate people and expected that of us. It was just how things were in our family. I'm probably one of the few people who sends written thank you notes after parties, thanks to my mother.
Likewise, the family culture of my friend Sergeant Heather's family is that they all take care of the youngest autistic child. It's not a chore they have to be asked to do. All the children voluntarily do it as part of being a family.
Just the way society has a culture, families do, too. And families where there's permissive parenting -- what I call "Go-right-ahead mommying," end up with brats that act out on the parents and everyone.
When I'm around kids, even though I don't have kids of my own, they behave. I just give them the sense somehow that I don't take any crap. I'm not mean -- quite the contrary -- and I don't have to be.
Even when I talk to kids who are strangers, to tell them to stop screaming or something, they get that there isn't that leeway they have with mommy: "When you scream like that you, hurt my ears and everybody's ears and you need to stop."
Not "Will you stop?" But, this is how you behave. It's how I was raised and it seems to work. I've actually shut up strangers' kids like that, no tears, no nothing. They just kind of blink at me and quiet down.
Amy Alkon at December 9, 2009 6:55 PM
PS And my dad doesn't take any crap from people, by the way. He's just very civilized in his way of not taking it.
Amy Alkon at December 9, 2009 6:56 PM
Preach, girlfriend!
Just tonight, I had had enough of the two BRATS in the market (Pavillions on Montana/Lincoln) that were running rampant and completely unfazed by their mothers attempt of control, which was weak and disconnected... "Stop it!", "Come here!", "No!" - Mom had no authority, and these two (about 7 and 9) knew they had her out gunned. As I made my way down an aisle I saw the boy brat laying on the floor, toy sword in hand, flailing around, no mom in sight. I walked up to him and said in my most commanding MOM tone (I've raised two of my own, now 17 and 22) "Hey! I heard your mother told you to behave, and you need to get up and do as she says right NOW!" To my disbelieve, this child didn't bat an eye - there was no sense of shame or disobedience whatsoever. He scowled, got up and walked away. I followed him because there was no parent in sight, and I was fully prepared to ensure his safety wherever he went. On the way I called out that I was going to see him to the store manager - he made a beeline to his mother who was in the check out line.
To be sure, the supermarket is a prime example of parents lack of authority and control - and understandably to some extent.
However, in my day - holy cow, I'm only 45! - when my kids acted up anywhere, I scooped them up and got them the hell out of there out of consideration of the general public, and my own public embarrassment.
Tru at December 9, 2009 9:39 PM
I LOVE it when other people correct my kid's behavior! He will often quiet down for strangers when Mommy's admonitions are just so much background noise.
Melissa G at December 10, 2009 6:36 AM
I think it's funny that all these people that criticize you, are the same ones who have out of control children that they can't control.
David M. at December 10, 2009 7:20 AM
Crid, loved the Madmen article. No "loving correction" in that family! Betsy's quite the self-indulgently bad parent. I did appreciate the cigarette and shotgun scene, though. Don't mess with my kids' golden retriever or I'll take out your disgusting pigeons!
Robin at December 10, 2009 8:26 AM
Some kids really are just hell raisers. 2 of my neices (I have 12 neices and nephews in total) from my oldest sister are like night and day. The 1st born was perfect. No tantrums, always listened, rarely cried ever. Went through a brief whiny stage but that was about it. Their 2nd child?!?! Holy GOD, what a difference! First word she learned was "NO", stubborn, willful child. Total handful from the day she popped out. It's just the way it goes sometimes.
Also Amy - kids generally behave better for strangers, teachers, babysitters etc... It's why I always say - if you know a perfectly well behaved, not annoying child - it's because you don't spend enough time with them. Being well behaved around you probably has nothing to do with you.
karen at December 10, 2009 9:01 AM
All the loving Amy received--and they are still talking about raising her. She is in her mid-40s now. Never had her own family.
All that raising led to a dead end.
Not sure this is a recipe for success.
Mr BS at December 10, 2009 9:39 AM
You ever think that dealing with the maladjusted and misbehaving spawn of douchebags like you might have something to do with that?
brian at December 10, 2009 9:45 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/12/09/so_amy_alkon_ho.html#comment-1681660">comment from brianHah - love that, Brian. And I haven't had family come out of my coochie, but I have loads of family. Family, to me, are people you treat like family, who do the same. I am frequently the only non-blood-relative at Sergeant Heather's family gatherings. Uncle Gregg sometimes joins me. I cared for my friend Cathy Seipp, along with 15 other friends (Team Cathy) when she was dying of cancer. She was family, even though she wasn't a blood relative, and believe me, you have to really care about somebody to be there through their suffering. It's really hard and horrible, but it was the right thing to do.
Amy Alkon at December 10, 2009 10:19 AM
Concur with you on the family thing, Amy. "Friends are the family that you choose"--isn't that how the saying goes?
On another note, I ordered my copy of your book today from amazon, and am eagerly awaiting its arrival!
the other Beth at December 10, 2009 10:39 AM
> All that raising led to a dead end.
Is it OK if we start making fun of this guy?
> misbehaving spawn of douchebags like you
Ah... Already underway, then. Just wanted to make sure it was being covered. Very good.
Does anyone doubt that if we asked Mr BS what his definition of success was (and we're NOT asking), that he'd describe something very much like his own life?
Crid [CridComment @ gmail] at December 10, 2009 11:48 AM
See also.
Crid [CridComment @ gmail] at December 10, 2009 11:49 AM
Yes, I believe in the full circle of life--and that includes raising a family.
A successful life does not include genetic suicide. Happy people reproduce, if possible.
I prefer Westernized societies--still, I wonder, if Westernized societies "evolve" to the point where our most highly intelligent people put careers and professional success well ahead of simple reproduction, our society will snuff itself out. Become ossified, decaying.
I was not going to bring up this point again. But perhaps seeing that charming picture of young Amy made me think--why doesn't Amy want another cute girl like that, except this time her own?
What was it in Amy's raising that made her not want to recreate family life? Was she unhappy? Is she unhappy? If your life is joyful--or even has moments of joy--do you not want to share that with your own children? Is there any greater joy than having children (I say not).
Is being USA's Nanny #1 really a wholesome substitute for having a family life?
Well, those are my questions. Why would an obviously high IQ and attractive woman choose this genetic deadend? It makes no sense to me.
Mr BS at December 10, 2009 12:33 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/12/09/so_amy_alkon_ho.html#comment-1681689">comment from Mr BSIt's so narcissistic to assume that because something gives you joy (having a wife stay home and raise your children?) that this would be a source of joy for everyone.
I make a difference in the lives of children in my life and in those of people who write to me and who I come in contact with (or who've somehow been affected by others' contact with my writing and thinking). That's what I choose to leave behind. That's what I find satisfying.
Amy Alkon at December 10, 2009 12:38 PM
What was it in Amy's raising that made her not want to recreate family life? Was she unhappy? Is she unhappy? If your life is joyful--or even has moments of joy--do you not want to share that with your own children? Is there any greater joy than having children (I say not).
It takes someone with a very small ... errr ... imagination to believe that children are the only or best way of sharing joy in life. Life is fantastic. Look outside your DNA.
MonicaP at December 10, 2009 1:23 PM
> I believe in the full circle of life
I believe in liberty.
> A successful life does not include
> genetic suicide.
"Genetic suicide." Bogus science talk! My favorite kind!
And that wording seems familiar...
Aha. Does this mean that Sterling, the speedy-ex-wife guy, is actually the i-holi butt guy? Has the internet ever, ever sustained a more mundane mystery?
Well, you were wrong about this before, and you're wrong about it today. Just for starters, human lives are measured by much more that genetics... That's kind of the point. Don't tell us where you came from, tell us where you're going.
> Happy people reproduce, if possible.
Says who? Isn't that exactly what you're being told, that some of us are happy very specifically for not having reproduced? Hmmm... What would make a guy, an anonymous one, so eager to contest our expressions of contentment?
Let's say a person was working in some magnificent tech job somewhere, but had married and made babies and felt burdened with them every day, and maybe had a spouse ditch town or something, too. And this person saw other people from the same career path who were still buying sports cars and traveling widely (and impulsively) and talking about how great their romantic lives were. And every day this person had to climb out of a pleasant sleep to feed the kids and earn money for their sportswear and their educations and their braces, and also maybe carry some extra emotional freight because of the missing spouse. And let's say this person recited a mental pep talk while stepping out of bed every morning that went like this: I'm gonna do this like I LIKE it. I'm gonna do this like I MEANT for life to be like this, like no one could EVER be as happy in their life as I am. By the time I cross out of this bedroom door, I'm going to be smiling like there's nothing else I'd rather be doing in my life!
Then this person turns on a computer and finds a single whose happiness and opportunities makes a mockery of the pep talk. What would that person say then?
I think the person would mutter something about genetic suicide.
> It makes no sense to me.
Are you a thoughtful guy, or a resentful one?
Crid [CridComment @ gmail] at December 10, 2009 1:28 PM
Well, those are my questions. Why would an obviously high IQ and attractive woman choose this genetic deadend? It makes no sense to me.
_____________________
Haven't you ever noticed that the higher the education level of a person, the fewer children that person has, as vice versa? Same goes for IQ, I believe. The main exception MAY be those who believe birth control is a sin.
My guess is that, quite simply, smart parents want to be sure they will always have enough to go around if one of them dies, so they are careful not to have too many children.
Besides, are you going to accuse intelligent priests and nuns of "genetic suicide," when many of them do plenty of good for children in schools?
In the same vein, the childfree - that is, those who Do Not Want Children - know they can do more good for the world with their current lives, as they are.
Face it, there is no guarantee that a good parent won't raise a child who becomes a criminal. As Shakespeare said, "good wombs have born bad sons."
Besides, no one conceives children reluctantly for any altruistic reason. That's a fact. I dare you to give five reasons or fewer for having them that don't include the words "I want."
For more, Google on "Breeder Bingo." There's an amazing chart of "reasons" for breeding and very good responses - especially in the "happily childfree" site.
lenona at December 10, 2009 3:50 PM
Sheeeeeeeeesh. Whatever happened to "live and let live"? You know, you do your thing and I'll do mine, and we can agree to disagree. Because, Mr. BS, not every woman wants to be a mother. Just because YOU want her to doesn't make it so. Let it go, already.
Flynne at December 10, 2009 6:24 PM
First...LOVE the paneling. I grew up with the same stuff in ouur bedroom in Detroit. Didn't have jammies like that though. :-)
Sounds like you had a very grounded upbringing, Amy. Ironically, I didn't, but the adversity is what brought me to the same relative place and views. That's the beauty of life...you can get to the same place so many different ways, for better or worse.
I agree with the "not every woman needs to be a mother" sentiment as well. Family is much deeper than blood and respect has to be earned, not just given by rote and position. I've got siblings that I often wonder about and friends who look nothing like me who are closer.
My hats off to you and all the members of Alkon's Army for fighting the good fight against rudeness and lack of courtesy everywhere. Keep on keeping on!
TallDarkNGruesome at December 10, 2009 10:02 PM
People who are honest about being parents will tell you that the whole thing is pretty much six of one versus a half-dozen of another. Most of the tasks involved in parenting are right up there with housework in terms of how much people enjoy them. It's a lot of cleaning up messes, spending money on un-fun stuff, wiping runny noses, and generally doing things that we call "chores." This mundane, tedious drudgery is broken up by very rare, bright moments of pure, ecstatic joy - highs that make the usual lows worth it. To me, this is very much like supporting a crystal meth habit. I think it's a bad idea and something that would ruin my life, even if it did make me feel wonderful occasionally. This is why I will never change my mind about having kids, and why I got my tubes tied several years ago. It's not simply that I lack the interest in them, although that is true as well. It's that I think it's a BAD IDEA. I'm totally AGAINST it. I enjoy my life a lot and don't want to ruin it by having kids.
And for the record, the vast majority of people I know who have kids didn't do it because they thought carefully about it and proceeded to become parents thoughtfully and with foresight. Most of them either didn't think about it at all, and merely popped them out because it was the next thing on the list to do after buying a house, or they got knocked up by accident. Sure, they say it's worth it, because that's what they have to tell themselves to get through the day. But in all but a very small number of cases, I don't buy that for a minute.
The whole DNA/genetics thing seems completely absurd to me. I don't see why anyone in their right mind would care about that.
Pirate Jo at December 11, 2009 9:37 AM
Sometimes I stroll through the great chambers of Amy's Bloggy Palace and look at all the snot I've blown onto the the arches & spandrels and think: Now, was that really necessary, or am I just getting my period again?
Then I think about it some more and decide it shoulda been worse.
This guy, whoever it is, is obviously not recommending babymaking as any sort of policy for anyone. It's not truly a universal principle for him... It's really just a fashion he demands be embraced by people he might be socially attracted too. Redheads with (lifelong) good jawlines, conversational partners, that sort of person.
But how far back in our history would you have to search to see some terrible boorishness in the popular mentality on this topic... Women being truly oppressed by the assumption that their work on the planet is incomplete until they've knocked out a few kids (whether they wanted to or not, whether they'd found a suitable father for them or not)? Has feminism become such old hat that we've forgotten that it needed to happen?
And there was this wonderful passage from Cosh today, as he described reproduction policies in China, which have been one of the great "silent" horrors of our lifetime:
| In China, the one-child policy has been
| a class war that skewed the natural sex
| ratio, introduced chaos into the family-
| formation process, and condemned millions
| of men to lifetime service in a reserve
| army of the unmarried. It’s the biggest,
| cruellest biological experiment in history.
People should make babies when they want to. And sorry, but that includes the bright and attractive ones as well as the sullen uglies.
Crid [CridComment @ gmail] at December 11, 2009 12:08 PM
See also.
Crid [CridComment @ gmail] at December 11, 2009 12:14 PM
"Has feminism become such old hat that we've forgotten that it needed to happen?"
It wasn't long ago that women had to put up with questions like, "How does your husband feel about you working full-time?" in job interviews. Yes indeed, I count my blessings. Although my mother still asks me why I don't marry my boyfriend and let him support me.
Pirate Jo at December 11, 2009 12:53 PM
Twenty one years ago I was working in the Ozarks, and my then-wife had to put up with all that stuff. They weren't being ironic or half-hearted or ashamed: They meant that shit. She'd look at the interviewers and say 'federal law prohibits you from asking that question', and they'd look at her like a Star Trek creature had slipped into the room through a rip in the time-space continuum... In Reagan's America.
Crid [CridComment @ gmail] at December 11, 2009 1:40 PM
Crid, HA! This makes me laugh my ass off, yet I know you speak the truth. What do you suppose they were trying to get out of asking that question? Were they afraid she'd quit after six months, due to pressure from the husband? This brings up another whole issue, regarding men who brag about having stay-at-home wives. I used to work with a bunch of highly-paid investment guys whose wives all stayed home, whether they had kids or not. This gave them bragging rights like no sports car ever could. Hilarious.
Pirate Jo at December 11, 2009 2:04 PM
Yeah, I'm sure some of their interest was practical, and i can somewhat sympathize. But in other respects it was just hillbilly shit. I could tell you stories. The stereotype of the small-minded idiot down in the holler has a basis in fact.
As regards the wealthy— Favorite author Michael Lewis once described the meaning of a stay-at-home wife (with an engineering degree) in the silicon valley: "Jane is a very powerful status signal. Foregone production is the first cousin of conspicuous consumption."
Crid [CridComment @ gmail] at December 11, 2009 2:21 PM
Oh, I've listened to people rant and rave about people like Jane - "If she's going to take up that spot at the engineering school, and then just stay home, why bother going to school in the first place?" Well, schools these days are in the business of selling degrees. And lenders are in the business of financing them. So if Jane's husband is willing to pay off the student loans on that degree she will never use, why shouldn't they?
Funny, though - I've never entertained the idea of being someone else's status symbol. What would I do? Smoke pot all day? I'm sure that if I was the status symbol in question, I'd want to make sure I had the means to support myself in the eventuality that he decided to ditch me for a younger model. So in that respect I don't blame these women for getting their degrees first.
Pirate Jo at December 11, 2009 3:06 PM
Whoa !
You had a horse puss even as a child ! Or should I say pony? Amy please post pics of your parents so we can see which one is responsible for your big horse face ? Please? Thanks in advance !
PS You should walk around in public with one of those canvas feed bags like the other horses wear.
It would be oh so Chic'and it would spare some of us from concentrating on your oversize horse like jaw.
Just some friendly advice !
XOXOXOX and smooches !
pammy at December 11, 2009 3:11 PM
Pammy. You stupid slut.
Pirate Jo at December 11, 2009 3:13 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/12/09/so_amy_alkon_ho.html#comment-1681945">comment from Pirate JoDoesn't get much uglier than "Pammy," anony-weenie leaving insult posts:
209.102.185.59
That's her IP, here's more:
209.102.185.59 IP address location & more:
IP address [?]: 209.102.185.59 [Whois] [Reverse IP]
IP country code: US
IP address country: United States
IP address state: Illinois
IP address city: Mount Carroll
IP postcode: 61053
IP address latitude: 42.1165
IP address longitude: -89.9732
ISP of this IP [?]: Madison River Communications
Organization: max1.nola dialup pool (NWORLA-COE-LUMX96-1)
Host of this IP: [?]: 209-102-185-59.nworla.commercial.madisonriver.net [Whois] [Trace]
Local time in United States: 2009-12-11 18:28
You don't choose your looks, but you choose your behavior.
Amy Alkon at December 11, 2009 4:31 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/12/09/so_amy_alkon_ho.html#comment-1681948">comment from Amy AlkonAnd you gotta love it. Why was I away while Pammy was leaving all these nasty comment turds (on a number of entries)? I was over at the high school, telling kids not to think about what they want do, but about what they want to do, and how they can make it happen, etc.
Pammy, or whatever your name is, how about you do something nice today for somebody? If you have it in you.
Amy Alkon at December 11, 2009 4:43 PM
And the stupid Chicago whore Pammy can't even afford a real internet connection.
brian at December 11, 2009 4:49 PM
Pammyworld.
Crid [CridComment @ gmail] at December 11, 2009 5:12 PM
What a shame! If you go straight west from there, to Savanna, you're a boat ride away from a sandbar along the Mississippi where I used to go camping with a group of friends every summer. Pammy might very well be one of those dumpy meth whores we used to see at the grocery store, when we'd go to town to buy beer.
Pirate Jo at December 11, 2009 6:40 PM
Have any of you seen this article?
http://takebacktheisland.wordpress.com/
I am single and childless. I LOVE children and would have loved to have my own but that's not the way things worked out.
I do know, married or not, some people choose to remain childless. Why do some people have to pass judgment on them, if they decide not to donate to the human race. They are NOT any more selfish than people who DO want children for all kinds of suspect reasons- To fulfill their failed dreams, to have unconditional love, etc. Those individuals don't necessarily have pure motives.
And the nasty things people like "Pammy" say- WHY?
Attacking someone's appearance as part of a debate
is the lowest, cheapest, dumbest thing you can do.
saiorse at January 1, 2010 12:33 PM
Have any of you seen this article?
http://takebacktheisland.wordpress.com/
I am single and childless. I LOVE children and would have loved to have my own but that's not the way things worked out.
I do know, married or not, some people choose to remain childless. Why do some people have to pass judgment on them, if they decide not to donate to the human race. They are NOT any more selfish than people who DO want children for all kinds of suspect reasons- To fulfill their failed dreams, to have unconditional love, etc. Those individuals don't necessarily have pure motives.
And the nasty things people like "Pammy" say- WHY?
Attacking someone's appearance as part of a debate
is the lowest, cheapest, dumbest thing you can do.
saiorse at January 1, 2010 12:41 PM
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