Don't Be Takin' His Bacon
I'm with the kid.
Lady is, like so many Americans, under the mistaken impression that bacon is bad for you. I eat it every day. Last time my blood pressure was checked (last week, when I went for a physical), it was 111 over 64. From eating bacon, eggs, sausage, cheese, hamburgers, chicken with the skin on it, and green vegetables swimming in butter. I eat dessert about once every week and a half, and have maybe two or three glasses of wine a week.
The dietary science that's based in evidence, not just passed-down hearsay, says sugar is what's really toxic, and carbohydrates, including starchy carbohydrates, are what causes the insulin reaction that puts on fat. Oh, and apple juice? In terms of the detriment to your health, you may as well drink a nice cold bottle of sugary Coke, the kind made with actual table sugar that they sell at Costco and some other places.
UPDATE: Gary Taubes e-mailed me:
Hey Amy, I was reading Mike Eades's blog which got me to your blog and the interaction with this guy Patrick who thinks I'm a buffoon. You know he's right that he doesn't need any diet studies to tell him what works for him. That is the beauty of dieting for weight loss. One thing I agree with him on 100 percent.On the other hand, his experience with Atkins is known in the business as the Atkins flu. He's got all the classic symptoms and it is (apparently) caused by sodium depletion. I forget the details of the science -- something about the sodium depletion causing potassium wasting which in turn interferes with nitrogen metabolism (and yes, I don't know what this means either) -- but it explains all the side-effects he experienced, the constipation, light-headedness, enervation, etc.
And it can (apparently) be handled completely by drinking two cups of not-low-sodium chicken broth a day. I say apparently because I never had it myself and no one, of course, has ever bothered to do a clinical trial to test it because, well, they don't test anything meaningful in this business.
Anyway, this is something Steve Phinney of U.C. Davis figured out. Phinney's been working with and studying these diets since the late 70s.
Mike Eades also figured it out independently and used to recommend to his patients that they eat a dill pickle everyday or drink the pickle juice. Eric Westman prescribes the broth with the Atkins diet at his clinic at Duke (having learned about it from Phinney) and swears by it.
The point being if you have Patrick's e-mail address, you might pass this on to him if he wants to try it again.
I'm assuming there's a reason why he was trying Atkins despite biking six miles a day to work, and if it was his weight, he might be willing to try again with the broth. Salting food excessively will also do it, but the broth also adds back the fluid that he's losing.
The new Atkins book (co-written by Westman, Phinney and Volek of U.Conn), which comes out in the spring, will discuss it and I'll mention it briefly in GCBC Lite.
I go to Japan once a year. They eat rice, noodles, veggies, meat. I see alot of pasta places too. They have these fantastic bakeries everywhere. I mean high quality stuff. I never see any gyms. Everyone is skinny size 0. The guys are rail thin. Portion sizes in grocery stores or restaurants are tiny. Drink vending machines everywhere. Please note that sugar and fruits are not consumed. No cheese or dairy either.
My asian friends that are american are fat. I ask them about the rice thing, and they all tell me it makes you fat. So how do Asians in Asia do it? I'm honestly confused. I'm there every fucking year.
Ppen at December 24, 2009 2:14 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/12/24/dont_be_takin_h.html#comment-1684373">comment from PpenTaubes has written about this. They barely ate any sugar in Japan and Italy when Ancel "selection bias" Keys did his research. Gotta go to bed, maybe can find more for you in the morning, or maybe others will.
Amy Alkon at December 24, 2009 2:27 AM
Well Amy I have tried the no carb thing and it works great.
The problem is I get so hungry from my medication that I want to overeat. But with the no carb thing I was full for hours and hours. The thought of binging was disgusting to me. So it does work. I was even lying in bed amazed that it just shut my hunger down for hours.
But I still wanna know what the hell is the Asian secret? Is it the no sugar no fruits thing?
Ppen at December 24, 2009 2:40 AM
The amount of sugar in those baked goods is nowhere near what is in American pastries and breads. I live in the Kansai area, and am now going to cooking school. I made a roll cake recently (like a jelly roll)and there was an ounce of sugar in a cake for 5 people. I just went through my recipe folder and the most any cake has in it is an ounce and a half.
As far as the bread goes,in four good-size rolls there is one tablespoon. Custard/candied orange slice bread has one tablespoon in the dough and another tablespoon to candy the orange slices.
Fruit and dairy are consumed, but in very small amounts by American standards. One apple will be cut up for the family while watching TV or one pear. Granted the apples here are large, but you're still splitting it among 3-4 people. Yogurt is popular for breakfast, but the sizes are dinky....an ounce of flavored yogurt is one serving. Smaller portion sizes overall is one key to it.
crella at December 24, 2009 2:47 AM
Amy, your dietary advice would sound more convincing if you didn't insist on ignoring two obvious facts: the kid is a porcine butterball, and the woman is svelte and healthy looking.
To say nothing of the child's obvious behavioral issues.
Personally, I think Taubes is completely and utterly full of it.
Patrick at December 24, 2009 3:22 AM
And by the way, the entire family is made up of obese slobs. Who the hell would any person in their right mind listen to, when it comes to matters of nutrition? Her? Or them?
Take your time, folks. It's a no-brainer.
Patrick at December 24, 2009 3:25 AM
Finally, when it comes to vitamins and minerals, bacon is virtually a nutritional void.
If you want to insist on an Atkins-type eating style and maintain that bacon isn't the direct route to heart disease that its reputation would have us believe, that's all well and good. But it is irresponsible and ignorant to suggest that bacon is "good for you." Show me the nutrition. It isn't there.
Patrick at December 24, 2009 3:34 AM
Considering that the link between meat and cholesterol is dodgy at best, and the link between cholesterol and heart disease is being questioned, insisting that bacon is bad for you seems a bit premature.
I eat a bacon and cheese omelet just about every day. My cholesterol is 205. BP 120/70. Other than the extra pounds I'm carrying, I'm in the best condition of my life.
Wanna tell me how bacon is the shortcut to a pine box again?
brian at December 24, 2009 4:58 AM
"I eat a bacon and cheese omelet just about every day."
Damn you Brian, I was going to have pancakes with my kids today but that may have just changed it for me. (Sigh) Where's that bacon...oooo! and cheddar!!! Hey! Salsa too!! Noms!!!
Juliana at December 24, 2009 5:10 AM
Brian: Wanna tell me how bacon is the shortcut to a pine box again?
Brian, wanna tell me where I said that? Here's a hint: I didn't.
(Sometimes the lack of ability of some of the participants on this blog is astounding. How do people function not knowing how to read? I just envision some people trying to leave the house by walking through a closed door and wondering why the hell they didn't make it outside.)
That aside, I think it's entertaining (and I mean that in a nice way) how Amy, despite her most outspoken stances on issues, finds the gems in an overwhelming sea of personal failure and focuses in on them.
Amy calls herself a personal responsibilitarian, which I accept. But then she finds sympathy for the definitive anti-personal responsibilitarian, Monica Lewinsky.
And she writes an excellent book about the rudeness in society, and focuses on the problem of underparented brats. In viewing the episode of Wife Swap, which this clip is from, you'll find this kid is a living definition of an underparented brat. His dad candidly admits he wants to be his child's friend and that "King Curtis" (as the family calls him, and is the name of the episode) gets his way over 90% of the time, and as the swapped wife notes, he gets his way without even trying. But despite this, she finds the supposed truism of bacon being good for him. Never mind that King Curtis is cultivating the gigantic sense of entitlement that will doom him to a life of personal failure, never having to abide by a single rule. And to top it all off, even in dietary matters, no human being, regardless of their weird ideas regarding diet, would support his demands of chicken nuggets for every meal (as in breadedchicken nuggets, for breakfast, lunch and dinner with a side of fries), to say nothing of the candy and cookies he stuffs his face with and has stashed all over the house.
But instead of focusing on the rife problems of this family, including the fact that they're obese slobs, she focuses on an uninformed statement that bacon is healthy (like he would know or care), and this is the topic of this thread.
This is not a criticism. Merely an observation. I just find this quirk of Amy's to be entertaining, not damning.
Patrick at December 24, 2009 6:18 AM
As long as we're handing out food tips - never eat fresh pinnapple with dry dehydrated lips.
And never eat two of them at once.
Although I did find out that a small amount of salt really kicks the taste of pinnapple up a notch
lujlp at December 24, 2009 6:39 AM
Amy, your dietary advice would sound more convincing if you didn't insist on ignoring two obvious facts: the kid is a porcine butterball, and the woman is svelte and healthy looking.
If you eat carbohydrates, and have any propensity toward being fat, you will be fat. Taubes puts out piles of evidence that a calorie is not a calorie is not a calorie.
A friend of mine who was overweight asked me to tell him what to eat (knowing that I'm not a doctor but that I'm pretty versed in the science behind eating). He lost 17 pounds in a month (eating bacon, eggs, hamburger and steak -- no wine, no beer, no vegetables the first month) -- and his blood pressure went from very high to near "normal."
Again, if you eat carbohydrates and fat, you're going to store fat. Also, Taubes and others (Robert Lustig, Dr. Michael Eades) show evidence that sugar, flour and starchy vegetables are detrimental to your health.
Bodies are different, thought -- some people can eat carbs and not be fat.
And cultures where people only ate meat or mostly meat had a low incidence of heart disease and other "diseases of civilization." That is, until they were westernized and started eating carbs.
Amy Alkon at December 24, 2009 7:05 AM
Let me explain a little better vis a vis the kid: If that kid ate ONLY bacon, eggs, green beans drenched in butter, steak, chicken with the skin on it, hamburger, pork chops, and salad, he'd go from chubby to lean in short order.
If you consumer bacon and the above plus carbs, you are probably going to store fat.
Eades points out that there's more "calorie wasting" from consumption of meat and protein alone than carbohydrates, which are used very efficiently by the body to store fat.
Amy Alkon at December 24, 2009 7:08 AM
How do the Japanese get away with pasta? My doctor keeps telling me to avoid that, and so I have. I do deviate and eat some starchy stuff that my Mom cooks, but I've tried to avoid potatoes and bread since I read your "sugar is death (?)" blog entry. I do eat veggies and fruit, but I've cut back and fruit juices, and I do exercise. Yet, here my 40 extra pounds do sit.
mpetrie98 at December 24, 2009 7:48 AM
As long as we're handing out food tips - never eat fresh pinnapple with dry dehydrated lips.
If you're planninng on a life of crime, spend time working in the pineapple field of Hawaii on a regular basis. The enzymes from the pineapples will slowly eat away the ridges on your fingers, thus erasing your fingerprints. );-)
mpetrie98 at December 24, 2009 7:56 AM
I've cut back ON fruit juices. ARRRRRGH!!!
mpetrie98 at December 24, 2009 7:59 AM
"Personally, I think Taubes is completely and utterly full of it."
I love it. Gary Taubes is this country's (if not the world's) most awarded science journalist who spent seven years researching and writing a meticulously documented 500+ page book describing the sorry state of research in the field of nutrition; he is the staff writer for Science, the country's most prestigious scientific journal; he lectures to the faculty of medical schools throughout the country; he has, in fact, even presented to the staff of the NIH; and he has written multiple cover stories for the NY Times magazine. And some nimrod writes him off with a quick "Personally, I think Taubes is completely and utterly full of it."
Can you, Patrick, direct us to one piece of scientific literature that refutes anything Gary has written? I mean it's really easy to spout off that you think someone is full of it, but can you back that up with facts?
Sadly, this is kind of blithe dismissal is all too often the state of critical thinking in this country today.
Michael Eades at December 24, 2009 7:59 AM
If I were the kid I'd be having step-mom fantasies for the rest of my life...
Eric at December 24, 2009 8:03 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/12/24/dont_be_takin_h.html#comment-1684432">comment from Michael EadesThanks, Dr. Eades -- so well-put.
Dr. Eades site -- http://proteinpower.com/ -- which I've blogged about many times before, is a great place to get day-to-day advice on what to eat, and why. As I said above, he's one of very, very few people out there in evidence-based dietary medicine. It's tragic that there are so few.
Think of all the women out there who are fat, and think it's because they're gluttonous or lazy, and can't get a boyfriend, or as good a boyfriend, because many or most men don't want a fat woman. I've seen it time and time again, people changing their diet, cutting out carbs and the other bad stuff (bad oils, etc...Eades blogs about this stuff), and dropping weight like they're shedding clothes.
Amy Alkon at December 24, 2009 8:23 AM
Eades shoots ----> scores
Ben Pervinich at December 24, 2009 8:25 AM
The bacon kid is hysterical.
"They barely ate any sugar in Japan and Italy when Ancel "selection bias" Keys did his research."
Not sure about the research but both sides of my family came from Italy, and although I've never been, many of our traditional dishes don't have that much pasta or sugars, and when we do its not a whole plate full like the Italian restaurants here give you. I don't care for many Italian restaurants as a result.
If we do have pasta its a small bowl = one scoop for the first course. Next we get the meat and veggies - then last a small salad. For dessert - the typical Italian desert is half a pear or peach, skinned and marinated in red wine for a day with some marscopone on top (and this is on special occasions). Usually it's just a piece of fruit or fresh cracked nuts and *one* biscotti.
But mostly - no pasta. We see more rice and polenta (both in small bowls like the pasta pre first course) than we do pasta.
Traditional Christmas Eve dish in our family is Crab Cioppino. Traditional Christmas Day Dish is Veal di Tune (thinly sliced veal in tuna sauce with capers over greens).
Feebie at December 24, 2009 8:28 AM
Hi Dr. Eades, nice to see you on this blog. I'm a fan of yours and have turned a number of people on to your Protein Power books and style of eating.
kishke at December 24, 2009 8:37 AM
Ah...just in time for the holiday fat-fest. I was looking for a pecan pie recipe, and found one that includes--(drum roll)--bacon! Bacon fat and pulverized bacon in the crust, more bacon in the filling. I've been reading about bacon in everything these days, even vodka.
Pricklypear at December 24, 2009 8:41 AM
Michael Eades writes: Can you, Patrick, direct us to one piece of scientific literature that refutes anything Gary has written? I mean it's really easy to spout off that you think someone is full of it, but can you back that up with facts?
Don't need to. Proof is in the pudding. I gave a week to put his advice into practice. The results? Constipation, the lowest levels of energy I've ever experienced while still having a full night of sleep, barely being able to slog my way through my workouts, chronic light-headedness. And (of course) weight gain.
"But, but, but...that's not scientific literature..." The beauty of dietary advice is that it doesn't take long to determine it's crap. And you don't need to go chase down literature by pseudo-intellectual eggheads to determine what works.
Patrick at December 24, 2009 8:51 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/12/24/dont_be_takin_h.html#comment-1684451">comment from PatrickIf you're constipated, you probably aren't eating enough fat. And as the saying goes, Patrick, the plural of anecdote is not data.
Again, as Eades asks, direct us to one piece of scientific literature that refutes anything Gary is saying.
"Pseudo-intellectual egghead"? Gary Taubes has won the highest award for science writing so many times he is now no longer eligible to win it -- they want to give other writers a shot. I asked him a question a few months ago -- something diet-related -- and he couldn't give me an answer. He said he'd been thinking about it, but it would take him several months to read all the studies out there on the subject. He is EXHAUSTIVE in seeking the truth, and is able to pick out shoddy methodology (as is Eades) in a way few can.
Again, Taubes, Dr. Eades, Dr. Robert Lustig (whose video on how sugar is poison I blogged about recently), are the few out there who champion a way of eating that is evidence-based and healthy.
PS I wasn't fat, but I weigh 10 pounds less than when I ate some, but not a lot of, carbs. And that's 10 pounds less effortlessly, and without hunger. I craved carbs for about three weeks to a month, and then that craving went away. If I'm hungry during the day, I have a little sandwich baggie of salami slices in my purse, but I usually can go for hours and hours -- like until 2 in the afternoon -- on a plate of bacon and eggs (made in lots of butter) at 8am or so. (By the way, best way to cook bacon -- in a covered glass dish in the microwave, with enough room for the bacon to lay mostly flat, but as shallow as possible. That retains the fat -- paper towel bacon cooking makes it taste like particleboard.)
Amy Alkon at December 24, 2009 9:01 AM
hey feebie, you got a good recipe for chicken marsala?
lujlp at December 24, 2009 9:36 AM
Amy, I didn't call Taubes a "psuedo-intellectual egghead." I said that I don't need to chase down pseudo-intellectual eggheads to refute Taubes' work. It's not calling Taubes anything. On the contrary, it's suggesting that the authors of those hypothetical studies that refute Taubes' work are "psuedo-intellectual eggheads." Notice, I used the plural form. I haven't called Taubes anything. Yet.
(Sigh...here we go again. I have to clarify meanings that should be clear the first time.)
And by the way, I was eating plenty of fat, thanks. I had pan fried bacon for breakfast and cooked the whole eggs in the grease. (Bacon grease really makes scrambled eggs puff up, by the way.) I had pan fried burgers with the highest-fat cheapest ground beef I could find in the store, and molded the patties with my own hands. No packaged frozen patties for me, thanks. And fried in real butter, thanks so very much. Margarine is a health-hazard and I won't touch it.
I do have respect for Taubes' efforts and sincerity, but for whatever reason, the recommendations simply do not work for me. It wasn't just wrong advice. It was flat-out dangerous. I biked six miles to the gym every day for my workouts, then six miles home again. Even on my way to the gym, I was in such a state of torpor that it's miraculous I wasn't turned into roadkill because I was too groggy to pay attention.
I never had that problem with my morning workouts before. In fact, I usually look forward to them.
I think it's quite beyond ridiculous to demand scientific studies in the case of dietary advice. I don't need to. Dietary advice conveniently provides a ready-made test subject to anyone who wishes to try it. Yes, I'm slogging through my day with all the energy of a garden slug, feeling utterly miserable, gaining weight, going five days without a bowel movement (and when I do have one, it passes like wet cement), unable to mentally focus, but I need to track down scientific literature to prove that my eating habits aren't serving me.
Patrick at December 24, 2009 9:36 AM
I think it's quite beyond ridiculous to demand scientific studies in the case of dietary advice.
That's good, because what most doctors suggest you eat is actually unhealthy for you, and based only in the idea that it's good for you, and not in evidence. In fact, the evidence runs contrary to the way your doctor will likely tell you to eat.
And again, Eades and Taubes are qualified to assess what your issue was -- I am not. But, from the evidence I have read, eating sugar, flour, and starchy carbohydrates is detrimental to your health, whether or not you put on weight from it. (As my favorite epidemiologist reminds me, people vary. Then again, we all have relatively similar body parts...heart, kidneys, etc.)
Amy Alkon at December 24, 2009 10:11 AM
I'm thinking the chief problem in the typical American diet vs. the dietary habits of other countries is portion size. Seriously, I do much better healthwise when I just eat whatever I want, in reasonable quantities. Asking myself, "Do I really want a whole scoop of mashed potatoes, or do I actually just want a bite or two to taste?" does wonders for learning to consume moderate amounts.
And my personal experience matches Patrick's. I cannot work out (or heck, even function in my regular day-to-day life) without carbs in my system. Your genetic predispositions may vary.
Also, that kid is in serious need of learning the meaning of the word "NO." My kid has autistic meltdowns, fercryinoutloud, and he STILL is not allowed to rule the roost!
Melissa G at December 24, 2009 10:19 AM
"Think of all the women out there who are fat, and think it's because they're gluttonous or lazy,..."
I do think of them, and myself, often. I also think of my Grandmother, who was healthy and fit until the healthy carb/fiber scam became prevalent, at which time she began struggling with weight, blood pressure, and serious bowel/colon issues, a combination of which killed her at a relatively young age. Now my mother is suffering from exactly the same problems and won't hear of the possibility that she doesn't need to load up on fiber and avoid all fat but especially the evil fats from meat and butter, and her health decline is frightening.
Surely, there are people all over who take their doctors' dietary advice (not to mention the incredibly prevalent cultural reinforcement), and struggle with the resulting health problems it causes, with the added difficulty of thinking the only option is to double down on that advice, which only makes them sicker. And it's so completely unnecessary.
My anecdotal experience is that I no longer have stomach/bowel problems, no longer have symptoms of menopause, am rarely hungry, have incredible energy, and weigh 27 pounds less than when I started no carb in September, down from 169 pounds to 142 pounds. I've never had blood pressure or cholesterol problems, and still don't.
Robin at December 24, 2009 10:21 AM
The more I've been reading, the more I am understanding that the primary reason for my food allergies and hormonal imbalances(mood swings, hypoglycemia,lactose intolerance, bowel issues)had to do more with the low-fat, high carb and sugar diets than anything else. (And don't get me even started on food coloring).
For me it's never been a weight issue, but more of an underlying condition of an anxiety disorder which has left my endocrine/adrenal gland systems shot. My cortisol levels were/are on par with someone 20 years older than me.
The only measurable relief I have gotten from any of my ailments (besides drugs with unpleasant side effects which made things worse) was getting a high protein diet with greens. I still eat small portions of potatoes and yams, but no bread and no pastas are consumed.
A variation of the diet Amy prescribes too (minus processed meats because I am sensitive to them) has been the best cure all for me bar none.
Feebie at December 24, 2009 10:38 AM
The Goddess writes: But, from the evidence I have read, eating sugar, flour, and starchy carbohydrates is detrimental to your health, whether or not you put on weight from it. (As my favorite epidemiologist reminds me, people vary. Then again, we all have relatively similar body parts...heart, kidneys, etc.)
And I have no argument with this. Sugar is terrible for you. As is white flour.
Well, we'll see what Eades has to say when he posts again.
By the way, Robin. In an earlier post, when I made reference to the Wife Swap episode it came from, I linked that episode. That kid does have serious problems, and it starts with a daddy who admits he wants to be his kids' friend.
You know the one person I felt the most for in that episode? King Curtis's older sister. Their daughter. I mean, when they did the exercises, she really tried to do them while Curtis was being his bratty self. I wish they had shown more of her. I get the impression that she realizes she's heavy and unattractive and thought these things would help her. She's obviously in her teens, so it can't be doing much for her health and self-esteem to go to school during these competitive years and realize that the kids find her fat and ugly. I feel for her. The parents I have no use for, and King Curtis is a useless brat and I wouldn't have put up with a kid like that in my house for one minute.
Patrick at December 24, 2009 10:46 AM
"How do the Japanese get away with pasta?"
It's a treat, they don't eat it all that often, and the portion size is small.
Something I find alarming is that the Japanese who shop at Costco are fat. We got Costco in Amagasaki (near Osaka) five years ago and the gradually the proportion of heavy people shopping there has risen.You'll see fat Japanese at a ratio far greater than their presence in the general population. Giant muffin anyone? :-P
crella at December 24, 2009 11:11 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/12/24/dont_be_takin_h.html#comment-1684486">comment from crellaAlso, what amazes me about the idiots who feed their children soy milk and loads of soy products, thinking that the Asians are healthy and eat soy...from what I've read, Asians eat a few cubes of soy...not soy everything all over the place. Want your little girl to have a rack at age 8? By feeding her soy burgers every day instead of hamburgers, you're probably on the right track.
Amy Alkon at December 24, 2009 11:25 AM
"Want your little girl to have a rack at age 8? By feeding her soy burgers every day instead of hamburgers, you're probably on the right track."
Uh, ya, I want to scream when I see these Berkeley single moms feeding this to their BOYS!!!
Feebie at December 24, 2009 11:28 AM
Medium-grain rice is still a staple in Japan, and the culinary culture surrounding rice must be taken into consideration. Also, having watched a lot of cooking shows on NHK, I don't believe "low fat" is an entirely accurate adjective. It seems that every other recipe is deep-fried this or bacon-wrapped that or smothered in olive oil. High-fat maguro (tuna) is preferred for sushi. A deep-fried chicken or pork cutlet donburi beats a cheeseburger any day of the week. There are fast food restaurants that specialize just in the "beef bowl."
But ultimately it's all about amounts.
Peter Payne, a long-time resident of Japan, observes that Japan is a country where "bottled unsweetened oolong or green tea is preferred three to one over Coca Cola and where, when given a choice between small and large cans of canned coffee that cost the same money, many will pick the smaller can because that's all the coffee they feel like drinking just now. Even though I'm a big American, when I go to Wendy's [in America], I'm content to get the smallest Frosty they sell, which is bigger than the 'large' at Wendy's in Tokyo."
Eugene at December 24, 2009 11:40 AM
I've read that the soy traditionally eaten by Orientals is fermented (as in miso). The fermentation process supposedly neutralizes the harmful elements in soy. A few years back I visited a nutritionist and she had lots to say about the harmfulness of this supposed health food.
kishke at December 24, 2009 11:58 AM
Well, Patrick, your response tells me a lot. Your own results in trying a low-carb diet are anecdotal and can't be extrapolated to the entire population of dieting humans. Had you simply written that Taubes' info didn't apply to you, I would have given you a pass, but to write that he is "completely and utterly full of it" demands a refutation.
After personally treating at least 10,000 patients with various degrees of illness with carbohydrate-restricted diets, I've learned a few things. One of those things I've learned is how to suss out what's really going on with folks who are having problems with the diet.
In your own case, here is what I have surmised from your comments: first, you are overweight. If not, why would you even try a low-carb diet? Second, you eat a lot of carbohydrates. How do I know this? Well, because (a) you're overweight and (b) you responded pretty dramatically to carb restriction. Third, you've bought into the notion that exercise brings about weight loss. Why else would an overweight person bike six miles each way to work out at the gym? (Incidentally, one of Gary Taubes cover stories was on the notion that exercise doesn't really help with weight loss. Counterintuitive, yes, but totally supported by the scientific literature.)
What's my take on your situation? Before I get into that, let me explain in fairly simple terms how metabolism happens. All reactions in the body are driven by enzymes. If we had no enzymes, we would simply be piles of lifeless chemicals - enzymes are the magical proteins that make all the chemistry of life possible. Since enzymes are proteins, they are coded for in our DNA, and since evolutionary forces have designed us to be parsimonious in the synthesis and storage of complex proteins, we synthesize enzymes only as we need them. This synthesis is not immediate - it takes a while. Sometimes up to a week or ten days to get the enzyme levels up to where they need to be. What does this have to do with your situation?
Easy. You didn't wait long enough to adapt. When you started your low-carb diet, you had a zillion enzymes circulating around that had been made to deal with your previous high-carbohydrate diet. When you made the rapid change, these enzymes didn't really do you much good in metabolizing your new diet. After a day or two, the appropriate genes kicked in, and your DNA went to work making the enzymes you needed. But before you made enough, you abandoned the diet and defaulted back to your previous way of eating. More's the pity because numerous studies have shown that trained human subjects experience greater endurance on high-fat diets, but only after an adaptation period. For years scientists thought carb loading was the best way to improve endurance because whenever athletes were switched to lower-carb, higher-fat diets, they experienced fatigue and a little brain fog. Once it was determined what was happening, and researchers began giving their subjects time to adapt to the new diet, the results were totally the opposite of what had been found before allowing for the adaptation.
One other note. People who are overweight and eat a lot of carbs tend to have elevated insulin levels. Insulin makes the kidney reabsorb sodium and the fluid that goes along with it. So, these overweight, insulin-resistant people tend to have excess fluid accumulation. When they go on a low-carb diet their insulin levels drop precipitously (which is a good thing) causing their kidneys to release sodium and fluid (also a good thing). But, along with the excess sodium and fluid that the kidneys get rid of goes potassium (which isn't a good thing). As a consequence, most people starting on a low-carb diet drop their potassium levels a bit, and low potassium levels cause fatigue and muscle weakness and cramping. A little potassium supplementation right at the start of the diet typically solves this problem.
So, should you decide to give it a try once again, I would recommend a little longer adherence and some potassium supplementation.
Michael Eades at December 24, 2009 12:12 PM
Oh! It's so nice to see Dr. Eades comment :-)
I guess my only thought on this is that it still kills a lot of people to say that Dr. Atkins was right. He was called a quack for years and years by most of the media, but yet he was right.
Anyway - merry Christmas, everyone :-)
Anne at December 24, 2009 12:24 PM
When I have visited my friend in the middle of no where Japan the thing I really noticed about the food was tiny portions, the focus on whole vegetables, and the lack of meat. While rice was served with just about everything the amount was not all that much compared to what you get in the US - maybe 1/4. Everything came with vegetables that were generally boiled and cut-up - nothing more. Most things had very little meat - exceptins where things like tonkatsu (deep fried breaded pork) and going to western places (McDonalds which is better there). It seemed like the diet was low protein, but soy may have fooled me. Also, a lot of the non-tourist shops would have all kinds of diet products.
But maybe the portion sizes are comparable considered their size. I am not paticularly tall in the US and I noticed standing in a line of 50 or so people that nobody (even the girls in heels) where taller than my chin (besides my American friend).
I have never made it to Atkins level, but low-carb/high protien diets that I have been on allowed me to put on wieght very easily.
In going over research my brother dug up I concluded that the variance in people is a huge problem for research in diet and medication. The paper I found most interesting was one that should a strong a good correlation between the homogenity (is that right?) of the population the sample was taken from and the repeatablity of the study.
The Former Banker at December 24, 2009 12:44 PM
Dr. Eades, thank you so much for that.
Amy Alkon at December 24, 2009 12:58 PM
Michael Eades: Well, Patrick, your response tells me a lot. Your own results in trying a low-carb diet are anecdotal and can't be extrapolated to the entire population of dieting humans. Had you simply written that Taubes' info didn't apply to you, I would have given you a pass, but to write that he is "completely and utterly full of it" demands a refutation.
Out of curiosity, if someone recommends dietary measures that are totally out of sync with everything that has ever worked for you, and everything you have ever been taught about nutrition, and you were a successful personal trainer on top of all that, and you had the results that I had when you gave what you thought was a fair trial, what would you say? I would venture to say that you would probably suggest that the author of this new found information was "utterly and completely full of it," too.
Michael Eades: In your own case, here is what I have surmised from your comments: first, you are overweight. If not, why would you even try a low-carb diet?
Because when I was a personal trainer (I held certifications with AFAA and NFPT), I would not recommend anything to anyone I would not try myself. Although I no longer train professionally, I do still offer advice, when asked. Personal trainers cannot, by law, prescribe diets. Only licensed dieticians can do that. (Which I've come to realize is a tragic mistake.) I can, however, refer people to sources that I consider legitimate. The only thing personal trainers are allowed to do dietwise is to tell people to drink water.
Michael Eades: Second, you eat a lot of carbohydrates.
Score one for you. Guilty as charged.
Michael Eades: Third, you've bought into the notion that exercise brings about weight loss. Why else would an overweight person bike six miles each way to work out at the gym?
Because I enjoy it? I live in Florida and contrary to popular belief about Florida being such a wonderful place to live, much of the year it is simply unbearable to do anything outside at any time before 7 AM.
Regarding exercise bringing about weight loss, I accept that it's a notion. I've seen plenty of skinny sedentary people in my life. I don't have the scientific studies, but obviously if even some sedentary people can remain thin, exercise is not the brass ring everything thinks it is.
On the other hand, I am a fan of exercise. Our closest relatives in the animal kingdom, the bonobos, are avid climbers. And our bodies are very similar. With modern technology, we are less active than ever. No one is going to change my mind about this: we are intended to be active. And bonobos, by the way, eat far less meat than we do.
Also, I do not accept the idea that high carbohydrate foods, such as fruits, are unhealthy. Common glucose, of course. White flour? Same thing as far as your pancreas is concerned. On the contrary, everything in our anatomy, from the fact that we are too slow to catch prey, we are vertically designed, see color, have hands as opposed to paws and claws, have teeth that are mostly designed for consuming plant matter, including jaws that are capable of lateral movements, have long digestive tracts and stomach acids that are far less potent than those of carnivores.
And if anyone tries to insist that fruits are inappropriate for human consumption, I will say they're completely and utterly full of it.
But I don't think you're trying to tell me "NO CARBS EVER!"
Michael Eades: One other note. People who are overweight and eat a lot of carbs tend to have elevated insulin levels. Insulin makes the kidney reabsorb sodium and the fluid that goes along with it. So, these overweight, insulin-resistant people tend to have excess fluid accumulation.
This makes me laugh. Not at you, but it makes me think of all those people who insist, "I'm not fat. I just retain water." So, you're saying that's not a completely invalid excuse?
In any case, thank you for a very thorough, thoughtful and informed reply. I'm very flattered and touched that you took the time to address my issues.
Many accused me of giving up too soon because I had no will power. (I would say that a person who endures what I did for a week to apparently no purpose at all has will power.) I stopped because it was simply scaring me. I noticed one day I was doing my grocery shopping and shuffling behind my shopping cart with twelve inch steps, like I was a feeble nonagenarian.
Thank you, again, Dr. Eades. And have a good holiday season.
Patrick at December 24, 2009 2:32 PM
out of sync with ...everything you have ever been taught about nutrition
One reason that I'm so grateful for the work of Dr. Eades, Gary Taubes, and the few others who base their dietary advice on evidence (rather than practicing hearsay-based medicine, as most doctors are - going by the crappy research of Ancel Keys and others, and just by the accepted idea [accepted sans evidence] of what people should eat)...is that it's based in science not what has "been taught."
My friend who lost 17 pounds in a month simply by eating bacon, eggs, steak and hamburgers lost weight before -- by working out 3-4 hours a day and eating like a mouse. He was hungry all the time and had no time for his life. He was completely amazed that he didn't exercise for a month and lost weight effortlessly by eating as I said -- as I have learned to eat from Dr. Eades, Gary Taubes, and the science they've pointed me toward.
I felt carb cravings, as I said above, for a few weeks, but they subsided. I didn't need to lose weight to be skinny -- I was attractive as I was -- I started eating this way (almost no-carb down from low-carb) after eating no-carb for the four days before we shot my book cover. (I'd been eating a good bit of cookies of ice cream all month -- more than usual, but nothing critically awful or anything -- and I know the camera really does put on 10 pounds.) I'd planned to go back to eating low carb (no bfread, but oatmeal for breakfast, some Cokes, fruit juice, raisins, etc.) after we shot the cover, but I felt so great from cutting out carbs, I haven't wanted to go back. If somebody offers me mashed potatoes or a roll, well, it's not a matter of willpower. It's a matter of "Do I want to feel like crap?" And also, that I know that carbohydrates seem to cause the "diseases of civilization."
By the way, these guys - Taubes, Lustig, and Eades - buck a lot of crap for telling the evidence-based truth (that runs contrary to the statin industrial complex, preconceived notions, long-held beliefs of careerists in medicine and "science"), and I have to say, all three are heroes for doing so. They've given a lot of people their lives back, and I encourage everybody to read their work (in the case of Taubes and Eades), and to view Lustig's lecture on sugar on my blog and any other lectures of his, Taubes, or Eades you can find.
I have a few great links to post on diet in the next few days...have to go back to work now.
Amy Alkon at December 24, 2009 3:00 PM
@Patrick,
Your experience with low-carb induction sounds exactly like mine. I very nearly quit. And I can't really attribute my ultimate success to "willpower". I don't think I would have wound up 100+ pounds overweight if I had much willpower. Instead, it was an understanding (albeit rudimentary) of the underlying metabolic issues, particularly the knowledge that carbohydrate withdrawal was likely temporary. And it was - after six days of downhill slide I woke up feeling better than I could remember, and never looked back.
Of you choose to give it another shot, I'm sure many (including myself) would be interested in your experiences.
Dave Dixon at December 24, 2009 4:41 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/12/24/dont_be_takin_h.html#comment-1684520">comment from Dave DixonThanks, Dave, for posting that. I took aspirin on days I felt a little crappy from carb withdrawal.
And Patrick, FYI, is a class act -- wrote a lovely e-mail, thanking Dr. Eades for taking the time to post, not once, but twice, in response to Patrick's comments. I forwarded it to Dr. Eades.
And I have to say, you'll see from Dr. Eades blog, he is extremely generous with his time -- pretty amazingly so -- to help people understand what they're doing wrong, what their misconceptions are. I'm not one to think many people are all that great, but Dr. Eades is one of the exceptional people out there.
Amy Alkon at December 24, 2009 5:11 PM
A couple of more thoughts after watching the video (which wouldn't play on my Blackberry).
Modern industrially-produced bacon may indeed be relatively devoid of micronutrients, compared to what you might get from a wild or pastured pig. And we might face the same difficulty we do with sugar. We presumably evolved to respond well to sweetness, as it was a signal of nutrient density (both macro and micro). Refined into a product like soda, we may suffer from a deep instinctual response to get as much as we can while it lasts. And it effectively lasts forever in the modern setting, at much higher availability than one would have likely found in the wild (at least without fighting angry bees).
The same issue potentially exists with modern high-fat foods. Like whole food sources of sugar, whole-food fatty foods general signal not only considerable energy density, but the availability of lots of fat-soluble micronutrients. So getting it while the getting is good makes evolutionary sense, but has the potential to lead to nutritional deficiencies, particularly if you're getting your fat from more refined sources.
That said, I'll stack up bacon against soda or french fries any day. And I suspect most people don't just sit around and load up on 2000 kcal of bacon daily, precisely because it doesn't lead to the type of metabolic derangement caused by refined carbohydrates. My daughter's favorite breakfast is bacon and egg yolks, all mixed up. If given only bacon, she'll eat some of the fat off, but will quit and ask for something else after one or two pieces. Add in some egg yolk (or it's most tasty extrapolation, hollandaise) and she's off to the races.
As for the "svelte" woman in the video, I personally subscribe to the "real women have curves" school of thought. Just my opinion, of course. Indeed, though NutritionData.com is a great information resource, I now find myself loathe to use it because Jillian Michaels is plastered all over the place.
Dave Dixon at December 24, 2009 5:16 PM
@Amy,
You're most welcome. And I agree with you on both counts - Patrick is class act, and Dr. Eades is the man.
I've fielded a lot of questions from acquaintances on my weight loss. Many tried low-carb and quit during induction for exactly the reasons Patrick described. And who could blame them? It's very difficult to ignore fundamental survival messages from your body, like "eat some sugar before you die, dummy". For those I've convinced to give it a second try, the key to success has been the added knowledge that the suffering is temporary, and a sign that your body is making a change for the better. Knowing there is light at the end of the tunnel (and better yet, that the tunnel is only one or two weeks long) seems to be a great help in finding willpower.
Dave Dixon at December 24, 2009 5:24 PM
This is a great discussion!! Glad everyone is being so civil!!
RE: weight gain due to water retention. It is pretty much accepted that 3500 cals = 1 pound weight gain....as in if I over eat by 3500 cal I will gain a pound. But I can eat a candy bar (say 500 calories, but most are fat less) and gain 3-4 pounds overnight. On the same hand when I go really low carb, especially after falling off the wagon (like during the holidays) I will loose 5-8 pounds in just a few days! I also pee constantly. The scientific evidence is there....do some research.
Now am I saying that my weight was all water? Of course not. But probably a good 5-10 pounds of it was water.
Oh and yea, I agree that kid is a brat! If he was in my house and spoke to an adult that way he'd be reprimanded! He's a brat and the product of BAD parenting!
Alcinda Moore at December 24, 2009 5:44 PM
Dave Dixon writes: Your experience with low-carb induction sounds exactly like mine. I very nearly quit. And I can't really attribute my ultimate success to "willpower". I don't think I would have wound up 100+ pounds overweight if I had much willpower. Instead, it was an understanding (albeit rudimentary) of the underlying metabolic issues, particularly the knowledge that carbohydrate withdrawal was likely temporary. And it was - after six days of downhill slide I woke up feeling better than I could remember, and never looked back.
I wouldn't sell your will power short. There are people that deny themselves the things they think are making them fat and go for months with marginal losses, even gains, but still do it. So, you could have simply been doing the wrong things but not knowing any better. Taubes' book opens with an account of Eisenhower, who tortured himself for months on end with his diet, and was only growing worse.
I think I will give it another try after New Years. Like so many, I did pack on a few extra pounds for the holidays.
And you're very astute about the issue. You understand exactly what was going through my mind. I had no professional mentoring me through this to explain what was happening. All I knew is that I was miserable, exhausted, unfocused, constipated and gaining weight. But at least I wasn't hungry. Even my energy supplements could not break this torpor. And those have never failed me.
So, why would anyone keep this up? Everything I felt said that something was seriously wrong.
Regarding the woman in the video who was confronting the "Bacon is good for me" brat, you said real women have curves. I agree, but I would point out that she has breasts. Of course, given the relative lack of junk in the trunk, I'm not placing any bets that the breasts are natural. Indeed, her waist is narrow, and her hips look only slightly wider.
The depressing part of that video (the episode I linked, not the snippet that Amy posted), is that supposedly, the families both learned something from Wife Swap, and King Curtis's mother learned that Curtis has to eat healthier. So, what does she do? She sets out a plate full of his beloved chicken nuggets, then sets out two grapes and a baby carrot, and tells Curtis he's going to have to eat the two grapes and carrot before he can have the chicken nuggets. Depressing? You don't know half of it. He doesn't even finish the prerequisite items before he's given his chicken nuggets, but his mother tells him what a good boy he is for trying...OY!
Patrick at December 24, 2009 6:23 PM
I didn't have any of the bad stuff you guys are talking about when I went low-carb. It was pretty uneventful, except for the weight loss, of course, and the end of all gastric issues, e.g. gassiness etc. What I do find sometimes is that even now, after 7-8 months, I'll have a real craving for something sweet, especially after a meal. It'll usually go away if I ignore it, but occasionally I'll satisfy it with a few raisins or a medjool date or maybe a few pecans. Now that I never eat sugar, my sensitivity to sweetness is much more acute, so it takes very little to satisfy me.
kishke at December 24, 2009 7:50 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/12/24/dont_be_takin_h.html#comment-1684538">comment from kishkeIt was pretty uneventful, except for the weight loss, of course, and the end of all gastric issues, e.g. gassiness etc.
You bring up a great point. Eating carbs gives you gas and digestive issues. Eat meat, no gas or rarely any gas (maybe if there's some type of carb that's in meat or chicken or fish you get at a restaurant, unbeknownst to you).
Amy Alkon at December 24, 2009 9:01 PM
I was thinking about this a bit more. I realized that every time I have spent time away from the US (and Canada) I have lost weight even though I would have thought I would have gained it. The big difference I think is that found I tend to have is more natural - I mean less processed. For example, I was on a cruise in New Zealand which served a "Pumpkin Bisque" and I saw them working with what looked like hunks of pumpkin - though not nearly as orange as you see in the US. So while I was eating better...I was also drinking 2-5 drinks a day so I would though I would have gained weight. Nope.
"And I suspect most people don't just sit around and load up on 2000 kcal of bacon daily" - Mr. Dixon
Maybe that is where my problem is...I am too lazy to cook up all that bacon, but if it was readly available I might. If I am not eating anything filling with it I can eat till the grease starts making my stomach turn...and I still want more. It is nothing for me to eat 10-15 strips if it is available. A few years ago my parents held a catored brunch and almost no one made it because of an expected snow - I had probably 50 slices in 3 hours. Eggs though make feal full real fast - say 2 good spoonfuls and a feel full don't want to eat another bite, but an hour later a am hungery then ever. If it was not for will power and the general inconvience I would probably weigh 300lbs!
The Former Banker at December 24, 2009 9:18 PM
I've been low-carbing for a little over a year now; and by low-carbing, I mean that I've kept myself in ketosis and usually eat around 20g of carbs per day. Now I am 49 years old, and have not felt this good since I was in my early 20s.
It took me about 2 weeks to start to see the energy from this diet, but afterwards I found I had more energy that I ever remembered having. One of the best things about this type of energy is that I don't have to eat to get it. I can climb mountains and hike all day without eating, without a loss of energy. It is truly phenomenal.
I did find that it took about 2 months for the constipation to go away -- but it did.
I'm 6' 1" and a few years ago I weighed almost 280 lbs. Now I'm back down to 185, and am putting on muscle.
I suspect that in ancient times, vegetation was seasonal, and our bodies learned to take advantage of its presence by storing it as fat for the winter, which came with hunger, especially in snow covered areas. Now we live in an endless summer, and this is the source of the problem.
SnowDog at December 24, 2009 9:29 PM
Just to back what others have said - when I first started doing low-carb I had HORRIBLE withdrawal - headache, the shakes, foggy feeling. I recognized the symptoms, though - they were practically identical to when I quit smoking. Dr. Atkins encouraged people to try it for two weeks. I think that's fair - most people get past the withdrawal symptoms and see some very positive changes before the two weeks have gone by. Regardless of what low-carb plan you choose, though, I can only encourage people to read the book. The WHOLE book. Front to back. A lot of things are covered that you don't get just by skimming ;-)
Anne at December 24, 2009 11:16 PM
Yay Patrick! Let us know how it goes, and maybe people have suggestions on how to counteract the withdrawal symptoms, so you don't have to suffer as much. My own issues were more with allowing myself to eat the proper amounts of food that for my whole life I had been taught was the equivalent of sucking down a load of instant death.
Again, congratulations!
Robin at December 25, 2009 8:49 AM
It is not the meat Vs the carbs issue that is the relevant factor. While carbs have many more "offenders" than meat, there are enough problems in each category to go around.
If one can purge their mind of this misconception that has become the biggest informational cascade I have ever seen, the key is in what response the body makes to the food(s) we eat. Specifically some foods react by creating an inflammatory reaction in the body, others are quite anti inflammatory.
Overweight (obesity) is an inflammatory disorder and the fat cells themselves generate inflammation directly back into the body.
If one will monitor their diet to eat a net anti inflammatory diet, get the omega 6 to omega 3 fatty acid balance ration to 4-1 or lower and use some other techniques to stimulate the decrease in inflammation in the body via good sleep, proper breathing techniques, supplements with marine oils that are high in EPA and increase the amount of Vitamin D in our diets the fat and other inflammatory problems like arthritis, etc will improve dramatically and quickly. Also intermittent fasting stimulates this whole process without any change in total calories.
A completely new mind set is required and not easy at first, but it will work.
You can monitor the body's response via C Reactive Protein (CRP) lab tests (& other inflammatory marker tests), and look at the TG/HDL ratio. Once you are successful getting and maintaining these values to normal levels you are on the right tract to good health and that includes the weight magically 'slowly' melting off your body.
Senior Physical Therapist at December 25, 2009 8:52 AM
Patrick,
I've only read down as far as Michael Eades second response to you (after your post about fatigue). I had to respond.
I, too, experienced fatigue at first when starting a low carb lifestyle. The reasons I started to begin with is because a very good friend of mine recommended Dr. Eades book to me. This one: Protein Power: The High-Protein/Low Carbohydrate Way to Lose Weight, Feel Fit, and Boost Your Health-in Just Weeks!.
The first time he gave me a copy of the book, I sat in on a shelf unopened. A few months later, with my weight at a hair under 280lbs, that same friend (a Professor at a local university) gave me a second copy. Since he'd now given me two copies of the same book I gave him the courtesy of reading it.
I started at the end of October/beginning of November. Yes, just shy of two months ago. At first I was SO tired. But the book had warned me I would be so I kept going. That passed in about a week and a half.
To make a long story short, I am now in the high 240s (I started at almost 280, remember?) and my energy level is higher than it was before I changed my diet. I absolutely LOVE the foods I eat, too. I've discovered a love for cooking.
My life is made easier by my iPhone. Sounds funny, yes, but it's true. I have an app called the "low carb diet assistant" that makes it easy to eat low carb no matter where I go - it has the menus of more than 400 restaurants built in - and helps me keep track of what I've eaten for the day.
I am hardly ever hungry. My friend, if you have weight to lose, buy Dr. Eades book and read it. I've since given my friend's two copies back and have picked up my own copy on Kindle (and with the Kindle app, therfore have it on my iPhone too) and am constantly referencing it. It WILL change your life. And you won't be tired for long.
Donny Pauling at December 25, 2009 10:27 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/12/24/dont_be_takin_h.html#comment-1684597">comment from Donny PaulingThanks, Donny, for posting that. I feel the same. I used to nap a bunch of times a day, and now, even on my deadline days, I just work straight through the day, energized like never before. I don't diet -- I just eat whenever I'm physically hungry (good to learn to identify the difference between physical and emotional hunger and respond only to the former by feeing yourself). So, yesterday, I had bacon and three eggs in butter for breakfast, two cheeseburgers, no bun, with mayo on the side, for lunch, a chicken leg and thigh for dinner, and asparagus in butter for lunch and dinner. I got a little hungry in the late evening, so I had about a serving of cottage cheese (Trader Joe's is AMAZING). Oh, and salt on everything (see Taubes piece about why you shouldn't pay attention to the salt scares).
http://www.nasw.org/awards/1999/99Taubesarticle1.htm
I wrote ALL day, from 7 am, into the evening, until Gregg got here at 7pm. One tiny 10-minute nap in the afternoon. I probably get an hour of my life back a day, that I would have spent sleeping or napping, because of eating almost no carb.
Amy Alkon at December 25, 2009 10:51 AM
Amy, I agree: Trader Joe's is indeed amazing.
My favorite veggies are asparagus and broccoli. I love to throw them in with whatever I'm cooking and marinade them in the same butter/minced garlic (just a tablespoon of the garlic 'cause it has 3g carbs - hee hee) that my food is usually cooking in.
As for salt, I substituted salt for "No Salt" for extra potassium. I can't tell a difference.
I travel a lot - I have the privilege of being paid to speak at universities and churches - and I used to hit up the fast food places regularly. But when I feel like snacking, there is always a grocery store nearby. For me, deli meats are great for curbing snack attacks.
Reading Dr. Eades entire book was key for me. I did so on airplanes. I tell everyone I refer the book to that they MUST finish it. I think it's very important to do so.
Donny Pauling at December 25, 2009 11:01 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/12/24/dont_be_takin_h.html#comment-1684600">comment from Donny PaulingFast food place? Hamburger or cheeseburger, no bun. Club soda.
I generally walk around with a baggie of a few pieces of cut-up salami and hard cheese chunks in case I get hungry.
I don't sweat the carbs in garlic, etc., because I eat so low-carb that they don't matter; also, I'm not trying to be thinner; I just don't want to feel like I did when I ate some bread, oats, potatoes, etc., and drank juice and coke.
Also, I don't use sweeteners at all - even artificial ones. I've seen stuff on how they make provoke an insulin reaction. I haven't looked into this in any comprehensive way -- I also think it's good not to go back to having a big lust for sugar, and I drink chicken broth a lot (Taubes told me to do that for the minerals in it -- a cup or so a day -- in a recent e-mail exchange we had).
Amy Alkon at December 25, 2009 11:12 AM
What a great discussion here today. Just wanted to share my tip for making great bacon (which I also eat almost every day). I don't currently have a microwave and my roommate doesn't like the pervasive smell of frying bacon. So I've been making it in the oven, and it usually results in the most delicious, light, crispy, moist, melt-in-your-mouth bacon imaginable, without the splattering and smoke. The odor clears much faster as well! I had good results with a microwave before, but still on the chewy side in comparison. Ovens vary, but for the gas one I use, 20 minutes at 450 degrees for 2-3 slices in an uncovered Corningware dish seems about perfect. I can make my eggs and coffee or do something else while it's in the oven--love it!
Hope everyone had a merry Christmas, and I wish all who indulged themselves a good recovery from carb overload--I will definitely have a sugar hangover tomorrow! Oh well, it's the holidays and my bacon-thinned frame can take it... ;-)
Debra at December 25, 2009 9:20 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/12/24/dont_be_takin_h.html#comment-1684661">comment from DebraThanks Debra, but why no splatter that way? Seems like it would splatter all over your oven!
Amy Alkon at December 26, 2009 1:02 AM
I just think it's very sad that no one accounts for an active lifestyle. While I appreciate Eades explaining to me the symptoms, I found this comment of his to be a little perplexing: "Third, you've bought into the notion that exercise brings about weight loss."
I just find it a little troubling that all this seems to be promoting a sedentary lifestyle. I don't believe human beings are intended to be inactive.
And let's not forget, not everyone is a desk jockey for a living. Construction workers, lumberjacks, road crews, etc. are not sedentary.
Why is everyone so enraptured by this "sit around and eat no carbs lifestyle"? Does anyone truly believe that's how we're supposed to live?
Patrick at December 26, 2009 3:38 AM
Hello Patrick!
I think you're mistaken as to the intent of the statement, "Third, you've bought into the notion that exercise brings about weight loss." Of course, I can't speak for others, but as I understood the comment, which is made frequently in this same debate in other forums, is that many people believe that you MUST exercise to increase your caloric burn, to lose weight. The counter-argument is that NO, exercising causes hunger and offers nothing to weight loss.
Both sides agree that people SHOULD exercise; that people are designed to be active. But does it have anything to do with weight loss?
SnowDog at December 26, 2009 5:53 AM
Hello Patrick!
I think you're mistaken as to the intent of the statement, "Third, you've bought into the notion that exercise brings about weight loss." Of course, I can't speak for others, but as I understood the comment, which is made frequently in this same debate in other forums, is that many people believe that you MUST exercise to increase your caloric burn, to lose weight. The counter-argument is that NO, exercising causes hunger and offers nothing to weight loss.
Both sides agree that people SHOULD exercise; that people are designed to be active. But does it have anything to do with weight loss?
SnowDog at December 26, 2009 5:54 AM
Patrick, to echo SnowDog, exercise is a part of every low carb plan that I've read about. Dr A has a chapter stating it is non-negotiable!
The argument against exercise causing weight loss is that many (?most) actually eat more when they exercise. They may not even be aware of it...an extra bite here or there, but it's been shown in studies.
Exercise is very important for cardio-vascular health! Building muscles shows that our bones are stronger and as we age we recover quicker. But for weight loss, exercise alone is usually not enough.
There is no one saying that low carb means you can sit around and do nothing!
Alcinda Moore at December 26, 2009 7:40 AM
@ Patrick
Patrick,
Good luck with getting through your induction when you re-try. It's not always easy to stick it out. (but definitely worth it in the long run). If you need moral support while trying to follow a low carb lifestyle please feel free to join one of the largest low carb communities online at http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/.
Also if you (or anyone else wants a quick list of great lc resources. http://docs.google.com/View?id=dff32c42_21gzqxf8g5
Scott Merritt at December 26, 2009 8:23 AM
A few more thoughts on exercise . . .
There seems plenty of evidence that physical activity is healthy, provided you don't overdo it to the point where your body can't keep up with the damage repair and you have chronic inflammation. I believe the studies on fat loss and exercise generally show there is little difference in sustained fat loss in the exercise group vs. the control group. There may be an initial difference, but the body compensates for increased calorie usage by increasing appetite.
So exercise appears not to be an effective treatment independent of diet. A look at the biochem gives some hints. One of the effects of exercise (particularly weight training) is to increase insulin sensitivity of muscle. That makes sense: if your muscles run out of fuel, they compensate by making more insulin receptors so they can grab more glucose out of the blood. Your muscles now have the ability to clear more insulin and glucose from the blood, tipping things toward fat burning rather than fat storage.
However, if your diet contains a lot of glucose and stimulates large amounts of insulin release, you could counteract this effect, particularly considering that exercise is likely to make you eat more. If you make the diet less insulinemic (e.g low-carb, or even just sticking to whole foods instead of refined), then exercise and diet work together to promote a biochemical environment amenable to fat loss rather than fat storage.
The other point follows from Dr. Eades comments about fat-burning enzymes above. You'd like to burn fat rather than glucose, since otherwise the bodyfat you're trying to lose has no place to go. But if you keep eating large glucose loads, there's little biological incentive to make that switch, exercise or not.
If you buy into all of this, then there's implications for what exercise is best. You want to "burn out" the muscles, forcing them to adapt by making more insulin receptors and mitochondria. Having more mitochondria increases resting energy usage of muscle cells. In this view, you don't necessarily want to maximize the calories spent during exercise, but rather those spent one just maintaining the base metabolism of muscle. And, of course, you'd like all those shiny new mitochondria to burn fat rather than sugar.
Dave Dixon at December 26, 2009 8:59 AM
Recent post at the PaNu blog on precisely the topic of diet and exercise:
http://www.paleonu.com/panu-weblog/2009/12/25/panu-eating-and-high-intensity-training.html
Dave Dixon at December 26, 2009 9:05 AM
Hey Amy! I have not noticed any splattering when I cook bacon in the oven. I'm not sure why this is so. Maybe because the sides of the dish are relatively high, and it cooks more slowly in the oven? I can hear it sizzling in there but I never hear any major grease pops. I also did a quick web search and even people using shallow baking pans say there is no splatterage. Just glad it works!
Debra at December 26, 2009 10:12 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/12/24/dont_be_takin_h.html#comment-1684715">comment from DebraThanks so much - going to try that! I wonder how it works out energy cost-wise. I put my bacon in the microwave for about 10 minutes, depending on the bacon, and maybe on medium or medium-high. Anybody care to speculate on which is more costly and what the cost might be (and yes, I know ovens and microwaves vary). Gas oven, by the way.
Amy Alkon at December 26, 2009 10:36 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/12/24/dont_be_takin_h.html#comment-1684718">comment from Amy AlkonCost chart here: http://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/cooking.html
Sounds close. For better bacon, I'd go oven, although I use my oven for storage, and I'd have to find somewhere else to store all the stuff in there!
Amy Alkon at December 26, 2009 10:38 AM
Hey, Amy, this topic is getting buried. Can you do another blog post on this topic? I wanted to share Taubes' insight on my bout with "Atkins flu." I love the coinage, and I think it's very appropriate to a lot of the symptoms I was experiencing, probably aggravated by my exercise.
Patrick at December 28, 2009 1:02 AM
Hi All. I agree with must of what have been said here about the importance of a low carb diets for health in general. But I disagree with the statement that exercise does not produce weight reduction results.
That probably is partially true with aerobic exercise. You lose some weight until your body gets used to the exercise, after that your body get efficient at replacing the body fat loss.
But exercise can produce constant fat loss if you practice anaerobic type of exercises, short and intense burst of exercise, where you don´t use your body fat as energy (as in aerobics) but the energy stored in your muscles.
This way your body never gets adapted to produce fat to replace the one burned during aerobics but it uses the fat storages to replace the energy spent during intense exercise.
Best wishes to all.
Alfredo E.
alfredoe at December 28, 2009 6:30 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/12/24/dont_be_takin_h.html#comment-1685019">comment from alfredoeDisagree all you want but support it with data, not just your ideas about exercise. I like Gary's work so much and respect him so much because he investigates commonly held ideas and see if they are indeed evidence-based. Here's Taubes on exercise:
http://nymag.com/news/sports/38001/
Amy Alkon at December 28, 2009 6:34 AM
Hmmm...I went through the opposite scenario. I discovered "low-carb-hi-fat & protein" diet by coming across the Weston Price website - as referenced by a personal trainer named Mike Furci. When I first read his recommendations to eat lots of fats and proteins, I was dumbfounded. "Everyone knows" that saturated fats are bad for you! Bacon? Butter? Cream? Lard? That stuff will KILL YOU!
Yet, as I continued to gain weight on my high carb diet (even though I only ate "whole grains" and avoided as much fat as possible), I eventually decided to give Furci's and the Weston Price Foundation's dietary advice a try.
After adopting the dietary recommendations, I lost all my excess weight in about 3 months and have kept it off with ease...going on 4 years now. My cholesterol and blood pressure are all better at 36 than when I was 26.
My libido has increased exponentially, and a whole host of minor health issues that I used to have, all disappeared. Constipation, headaches, heartburn, dandruff, brittle nails...
Funny thing is that discovering Eades, Taubes as well as Mark Sisson's daily apple blog, they merely provided the scientific-based explanation and a complete understanding as to WHY this dietary way of life worked for me.
Dave from Hawaii at December 28, 2009 7:55 PM
I've learned lot from the Weston Price people too, especially from Fallon's Nourishing Traditions.
kishke at December 28, 2009 8:24 PM
@Patrick
"Also, I do not accept the idea that high carbohydrate foods, such as fruits, are unhealthy. "
Modern fruits have been genetically engineered to have extremely high sugar content. Our ancient hunter/gatherer ancestors had nothing of the kind available to them. The original ancestor of the apple grows in the mountains of the middle east and is said to be so bitter that one bite will make you wretch.
"everything in our anatomy, from the fact that we are too slow to catch prey, we are vertically designed, see color, have hands as opposed to paws and claws, have teeth that are mostly designed for consuming plant matter, including jaws that are capable of lateral movements, have long digestive tracts and stomach acids that are far less potent than those of carnivores."
You clearly don't know much about human anatomy as it compares to carnivores and vegetarians. Let's compare human anatomy to that of our closest relative the chimp. Chimps have much larger incisors than humans which are useful for processing fruit/veggies. Human digestive tracts are 50% smaller than those of chimps who eat far more fruits and vegetables than humans. Incidentally, it is this reduction in gut size that allowed humans to evolve larger brains. As for stomach acids, it is now estimated that hominids have been cooking their food for 2 million years, and this in large part has removed the necessity for the stronger stomach acids of pure carnivores.
As for our "vertical" design, I can't believe that you use this as an argument for being a vegetarian. Our upright posture and hands with opposable thumbs allowed us to throw objects (rocks/spears) and allowed us to become efficient hunters. Large land mammals quickly became extinct wherever man lived as a result of our hunting prowess.
"I just find it a little troubling that all this seems to be promoting a sedentary lifestyle. I don't believe human beings are intended to be inactive."
In fact, our ancient hunter/gather ancestors were "relatively" inactive. Sure they walked quite a bit each day to gather or to go to their favorite hunting spots. And sure there were brief periods of high-intensity activity to make the kill. However, when not engaged in these activities (estimated at about 20% of their daily activity) hunter/gatherers pretty much lazed around, much like lions and tigers do. My cat sleeps 16 hours a day yet he is lean and well muscled. I do zero aerobic exercises, lift weights for 5 minutes, once a week, and eat low carb. I too am lean and well muscled with lipid profiles, blood pressure, strength and stamina that is the envy of my friends and co-workers. At 50 I'm in better shape than most of the twenty-somethings at the office.
Humans are not adapted to prolonged repetitive aerobic activity. This is quite unhealthy for us as you can see from the drastic increases in a myriad of sports injuries that were not an issue as recently as 35 years ago.
AllenS at December 29, 2009 11:43 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/12/24/dont_be_takin_h.html#comment-1685224">comment from AllenSMy cat sleeps 16 hours a day yet he is lean and well muscled. I do zero aerobic exercises, lift weights for 5 minutes, once a week, and eat low carb. I too am lean and well muscled with lipid profiles, blood pressure, strength and stamina that is the envy of my friends and co-workers.
My experience, too. I don't have to diet, and I never have to be hungry. Bacon and eggs at 5am today, and I had a few slices of salami at 11:30. Not hungry, totally energized, thinner than I've ever been, muscles, flat stomach, all that, and I merely flirt with handweights and lift a heavy box to do weight-bearing exercises for my legs. A little, that is. Blood pressure, 111/64, HDL, stellar, waiting for the rest.
PS Eades has a great bit in his book I linked about how it seems to be the KIND of LDL particles you have (small and dense, bad; large and fluffy, good). Also, what's perceived by the practitioners of hearsay-based medicine (mostly everyone in a white coat) to be high cholesterol, but combined with low triglycerides and high HDL, seems to be protective, especially for women. (Correct me if I got that wrong - I'm cheating on my writing and in a rush, but I think that's right.)
Amy Alkon at December 29, 2009 12:37 PM
"despite biking six miles a day"
FYI, biking six miles a day actually doesn't burn up that many calories -- maybe 200. Enough for reasonable health, but not super-fitness or serious weight loss.
My aunt and uncle had the same problems Patrick had on the Atkin's diet, and in addition my Uncle developed some kidney issues. They lost a lot of weight at first, and then started putting back on, and they were ultimately forced to give up the diet due to their health issues. But while they were on it, it was all they could talk about and it got pretty damn annoying. Neither of them, even after the weight loss, was anywhere near as healthy or thin as my parents, who eat a lot more carbs and fiber and are about the same age. Perhaps that's part of why I'm quite admittedly biased against Atkin-esque diets (although, that said, I do definitely believe in lots of quality protein and in limiting simple carbs).
One thing I'd like to know -- are there any long-lived, healthy populations where the people live a low carb, high fat lifestyle? Cavemen didn't live all that long. I think Eskimos live mainly on meat, but if not mistaken, they don't live particularly long and they don't grow all that tall. I do know there are a couple of long-lived populations that live an omnivorous but largely vegetable-based diets (one such culture is in Japan, if I'm not mistaken). Similarly, just as I've never heard of a centenarian who is a raw food vegan, I've also never heard of a centenarian who is a life-long low carber. Does anyone has information on either of these points?
Gail at December 30, 2009 5:53 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/12/24/dont_be_takin_h.html#comment-1685613">comment from GailGail, Taubes and Eades look at the science. Perhaps you've heard the line "the plural of anecdote is not data"?
We don't know why your aunt and uncle had problems or what they ate, or really anything about them.
The science strongly suggests that sugar, flour and starchy vegetables are unhealthy for you. That apple juice is unhealthy for you. That eating a low-carb, high-nutrient diet is healthy for you.
To say you're "biased" against Atkins-esque diets is like me saying I'm biased against the hemi engine. I probably know about as much about it as you do about evidence-based dietary science -- which doesn't seem to stop you in the slightest from weighing in on it in some detail.
Amy Alkon at December 30, 2009 6:03 PM
...And as I've said before, I have yet to find a low-carber thinner or healthier than I am. Or longer-lived than my granny, who loves her bread and oatmeal. So my diet works just fine for me, I enjoy it, and I'm not changing it. But out of sheer curiousity, I would really like to know if there are actual live populations that live the low-carb lifestyle and have results to show comparable to, say, the Japanese in Okinawa, which is fairly carb-heavy and low in red meat.
Gail at December 30, 2009 6:04 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/12/24/dont_be_takin_h.html#comment-1685615">comment from Gail...And as I've said before, I have yet to find a low-carber thinner or healthier than I am.
So, Gail, give a lot of blood tests every day? And so on and so on? Know what Dr. Eades knows about lipid profiles? Even come close?
You have "yet to find" anybody longer lived than Granny? Because you haven't been looking or because Granny is 136?
If you're going to spout off about a particular population's diet, do as Gary Taubes does, and spend seven years exhaustively researching various populations' diets. Or, how about not spouting off willynilly and reading Taubes' work and learning something instead of just wildly speculating?
Amy Alkon at December 30, 2009 6:10 PM
You don't answer my population question or my low-carbing centenarian question. You just attack simple carbs, and I totally agree with you that too many simple carbs are bad (although I do not think a small amount, once in a while, will kill you). I just disagree with you that steel-cut oatmeal and brown rice are poison. And the Okinawa disagree with you on rice, period. They're living to 100 in good health. My granny's 97. Show me some old, healthy low-carbers, not a book.
Gail at December 30, 2009 6:10 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/12/24/dont_be_takin_h.html#comment-1685617">comment from GailI don't feel like looking up stuff on the Japanese. Read Taubes for yourself.
You totally agree with me based on what? You apparently merely speculate based on your experience. I don't have a horse in this race other than what's evidence-based.
Why would I care what Okinawans, Ohioans, or people in southern Pennsylvania think?
Here's Taubes:
http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2008/11/28/gary-taubes-answers-questions/
Shell out for the book, or don't, but I'm really not interested in your anecdotal opinion on what to eat.
Amy Alkon at December 30, 2009 6:20 PM
If Taubes did "exhaustive research" into the long-lived population issue, or the low-carbing centenarian issue, then you probably know the answer to my question. Are there low-carbing populations that live long healthy lives? Or a low-carbing centenarian? I don't care if the 30 year olds don't have high bad cholesterol, actually. The cholesterol thing is likely over-rated anyway (although, for the record, I have very high good cholesterol -- in the upper 80's -- and low bad cholesterol). What I want to know is whether they're living a long time in good health, like the folks in Okinawa. I suspect not, or you'd have mentioned it.
Gail at December 30, 2009 6:22 PM
You're not interested in the diet of a people that consistently live to unusual -- and unusually healthy -- old ages? Well, OK then. I've got nothing to add.
Gail at December 30, 2009 6:27 PM
Oh for pity's sake. I was going to shut up but I have to say this.
That Taube excerpt on the thin, long-lived Japanese acknowledges that they eat lots of carbs, but explains it by saying that until a short time ago most of the carbs were unrefined. Wait just a second -- Isn't that exactly what I've been asserting was healthy? And with regard to the Japanese who eat lots of white rice and are nonetheless rail thin, Taube claims they're thin because they get lots of flavor in their diet. Well, OK, whatever.
But that's supposed to support the idea that you shouldn't eat grains and you should limit your carbs? How exactly does it support that proposition?
Sure, you don't know me or my granny or my aunt and uncle. But how can you possibly say you are interested in "evidence-based" data, and yet discount what the longest-living, healthiest people are actually eating? And if there's so much evidence a high fat, high meat diet is the answer to having a long, healthy life (as opposed to simply being thin, which can also be accomplished by eating moderate portion sizes), then why isn't Taubes pointing to hale, hearty, really old people who eat only bacon and steaks?
Whatever.
Gail at December 30, 2009 6:45 PM
Hey there Gail,
If your lifestyle worked for your granny and your aunt and uncle, then it's not as if we're saying that it won't work for you. For instance, if your genetics gave you more systemic tolerance for insulin - that is, genetically higher insulin resistance - you might fare much better on the 'standard american diet' than I did. :-)
In regard to Taubes' response, unrefined grains may be an improvement on refined grains epidemiologically. That is, the small difference between refined and unrefined and the insulin response they cause will be represented in the statistics about the country. They're a bit better, sure, but it doesn't mean they're optimal, and it doesn't mean they have theraputic benefit in people who tend towards obesity. In fact, every indication we have is that they don't have any theraputic benefit, except in some very particular cases like giving someone rice bran when they have vitamin B1 deficiency.
But he also offers a disclaimer that many different things contribute to longevity so the longest living population, statistically speaking, doesn't determine whether carbohydrate-restricted diets are clinically effective, regardless of what they're eating. The only thing that determines the efficacy of a diet is a clinical trial of a diet, held to the highest standards we have.
They're surviving a long time without much meat, yes, but correlation does not equal causation; their diet doesn't necessarily ultimately determine whether they live as long as they do, and when they're living as long as they do while eating in a way that's essentially been determined to be unhealthy for the vast majority of the world's population, you have to also consider other explanations. One of these is genes that have been correlated with longevity: http://iubio.bio.indiana.edu:7131/bionet/mm/ageing/1998-October/003422.html
I'll (politely; no offense intended :-)) assume you're not a biochemist, and note that the genes mentioned in that article are related to telomere length, which is a bit of repetetive DNA at the end of your chromosome that protects against error in replication, and thus supposedly against many degenerative diseases. More telomere length is associated with a greater lifespan.
There are plenty of individual examples of old people who eat only bacon and steaks, for instance this one: http://www.latimes.com/news/obituaries/la-me-parker28-2008nov28,0,3824201.story
But traditional societies that eat only bacon and steaks? I'm not sure they exist. We have subsidies in the US for wheat, soy and corn because they're so efficient to produce, and as a result they're a staple in consumer products, but I can't think of any country subsidizing beef. It doesn't seem very economical.
It is, however, healthy and tasty as far as the evidence tells us. :-)
Paul at December 30, 2009 9:05 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/12/24/dont_be_takin_h.html#comment-1685639">comment from GailThanks, Paul.
Gail, listen to Paul.
Amy Alkon at December 31, 2009 12:15 AM
She doesn't have to listen to me so much; I can only politely ask people to consider. :-)
Paul at December 31, 2009 1:53 PM
Joining the discussion late, but re: oven bacon I often cook a full cookie tray at a time, pouring the excess fat off into a storage container a couple of times while it it cooking. Store what you don't eat in a container in the fridge and heat up as you need it. I use a lower heat- say 350F and just watch it. You can turn it over part way through cooking. It comes out crispy and flat.
Anna at January 2, 2010 7:01 AM
Gail writes: ...And as I've said before, I have yet to find a low-carber thinner or healthier than I am. Or longer-lived than my granny, who loves her bread and oatmeal. So my diet works just fine for me, I enjoy it, and I'm not changing it. But out of sheer curiousity, I would really like to know if there are actual live populations that live the low-carb lifestyle and have results to show comparable to, say, the Japanese in Okinawa, which is fairly carb-heavy and low in red meat.
Hey, Gail, Taubes himself responded to the challenge issued by Eades and Amy. I responded that proof is in the pudding and that I don't need to chase down scientific studies to know what's crap. He told me via email forwarded by Amy that he agrees 100% that I don't need scientific studies to know what works for me.
Patrick at January 3, 2010 5:45 AM
Re: Bacon in the oven. I love it. In fact, I love bacon any 'ol way. But, Odor? Bacon odor? Debra wrote about bacon odor. Shouldn't it be aroma? No better aroma than the lovely smell of bacon cooking in the kitchen.
Cindy at January 15, 2010 2:05 PM
Bacon? did i hear bacon? i love beacon
peter pan at February 20, 2013 4:36 AM
get your max payne 3 crack download check it out on youtube :D
max payne 3 crack at February 20, 2013 4:37 AM
Leave a comment