If Men Are So Irksome To You
Marry a plant.
All people are annoying -- including (okay, maybe especially) yours truly, with my crazy writing schedule, ADHD, and general wacky-broad-ness, including my tendency to tell off, prank, and otherwise have at people who behave badly. Gregg's rule: No doing that when he's with me, but he'll always be good for bail.
Gregg has always been very sweet and extremely patient with me, and I try to make him happy. From my end, it really doesn't take much: be sweet, be kind, be rational and appreciate all the wonderful things he does for me. So far so good -- after seven years together December 12, and just last week, slow-dancing together in my doorway upon his arrival. (Hint to guys: Chicks like this. Well, this chick ate it right up, anyway.)
On the flip side, there are articles like this -- "Ten Things All Women Hate about All Men" -- in Pravda. This ugly piece reminds me of a story of an old man who was mean to his wife, wouldn't speak to her for years at a time, and then she died and he went to her grave every day.
Here's an excerpt from the piece -- supposedly from an opinion poll about what wives hate about their husbands. And yeah, I know, I think the writer thinks she's funny. The contents of the piece are actually just so creepy and hostile it's a little scary:
Have you ever thought something like "Men are terrible creatures.. They wage wars, start conflicts and then blame us for everything saying that all they do they do it for women. They demand impossible from women expecting them to do dishes, cook, work, and look like women on magazine covers. At the same time, men are incapable of doing anything they consider unpleasant. They behave as though it's a man's world, but do they have a right to it? What can a person demand if he is not capable of doing his own dishes? It turns out that even the most peaceful and loving wives feel this way once in a while. We conducted an opinion poll to find out what are the top pet peeves wives have about their husbands. 1. SelfishnessThis one is the basis for all other faults since a selfish man is convinced it is his world, and you are entitled to follow him wherever he goes whether you want it or not.
Me: Don't like selfish people? See that you don't marry one. The piece continues:
The reality is not that bad. Of course, men can be selfish, but please understand them. They feel lonely because they cannot bear children. Men's games for the right to be on top cause additional stress. It is not easy to keep trying to prove something to yourself and the world all life long, hence selfishness.2. Indifference to the wife's family
He is always ready to take care of his own family, but keeps telling you that your mother (sister, friend) does not know much about life.
Me: For best results, find a man whose opinion you respect. Then, when he tells you somebody "does not know much about life" he'll probably be right.
You can get offended or try proving that you relatives are, in fact, very bright people. But it is a waste of energy. Just tell him: "No matter what they are like, I still love them and they will always be a part of my life." If he does not want to celebrate you grandma's birthday, don't be upset. You can party just fine without him.3. Dirty dishes
Even clearing a plate can be a problem, let alone washing it . But in his family, his mother was the one who did dishes, and he expects the same from you. Even if you work 5 days a week and not 2 like his mother and hate doing dishes. Try leaving his dish unwashed after every meal. It will take him some time to notice, but he will.
Ugly.
Here's how it works at my house, right after dinner (the dinner Gregg has brought over, since I don't cook; I heat):
GREGG: Take my plate?ME: Okay, sweetie!
Am I persecuted? No. I'm happy -- that my boyfriend, who'd just spent probably 45 minutes in Whole Foods or at Monsieur Marcel getting us dinner, doesn't have to get up off the couch.
I read between the lines of this Pravda piece, and I see a woman who hates men because she can't have one. And what a lucky thing that is for the man she doesn't have.
in Pravda? Well, I suppose opinion pieces such as this are everywhere.
It's a curious truth that the first point is true, perhaps not in the way the writer intends. Individuals have their own point of view, their own way of seeing things. Is that selfish? The word has a bad connotation. What causes the problem ISN'T that individuals cannot see through each other's eyes, but that people believe that their way of seeing is the ONLY way to see things. If two people are pretty similar in ideas and tastes, it isn't as noticable... but there are differences. You would think it was apparent, but it doesn't seem to be.
"my husband can't do *insert-something-here* to save his life."
oh, yeah? seems like he was doing that something fine before he met you. He didn't starve, he wasn't running naked. My ex hated it when I took the kids to the park when they were little. "You didn't take everything you need, what if something would've happened?" 'The things I don't take aren't needed.' I.e. several changes of clothes, enough food for more than one meal, a basket of toys, etc. We are going to the park, so the toys are already there...
We think differently, it's OK, it's why we are so good together... so maybe, if what our dear pravda Tsarevna was willing to say something more constructive, she might point out that some explanation and Point Of View sharing works wonders. If you actually want things to change, instead of having something to grouse about. On her family/ I have decided to never get along with another woman's family, becuase every single one has liked me a lot, and when they said so, their daughter immediately started trouble with me. Even 6 years after the divorce, my ex's mom is still nice to me.
To amplify Amy, the key thing is to like somebody as you see them, NOT for who you think you can make them into. IF you succeed in making a guy over, are you still going to be interested? And if he refuses to change, what then. You ask us to be confident and decisive, or is that only about things you wish us to be so?
SwissArmyD at January 2, 2010 3:15 AM
I'm expecting a few to say that this isn't any big deal...although they wouldn't be saying it if were a piece entitled "Ten Things All Men Hate About All Women."
The ugliness in the piece isn't just a listing of faults presumed to be common to all men, it's in the patronizing attitude toward conflict resolution. This "let him think he's right" approach suggests that the relationship more resembles mother and child.
And for the record, this has to be among the dumbest things I've ever read: "Of course, men can be selfish, but please understand them. They feel lonely because they cannot bear children."
Uh, say what? That's right. You nailed it one. It's always been our secret desire to have children. After all, you guys make it look like such a picnic.
Patrick at January 2, 2010 3:30 AM
I agree with both comments 100%, oh and Patrick women also have penis envy, that's why we are all such bitches, lol. I grew up in a family where my mom did all the cooking and cleaning and my father is the provider and took care of the household upkeep. My father does for my mother and vice versa and they have been happily married for almost 40 years. By the way we are from the Ukraine originally, so this piece (of garbage) embarrasses me. I never understood why a women wants a man she needs to change. If you change him, he won't be the same person you fell in love with. I've never gotten married because I've never been with anyone that I wanted to spend the rest of my life with. Yes people are annoying, all people, but not because they are men or women, but because that's just what we, as humans, are.
Nina at January 2, 2010 5:52 AM
A man who gets up to get his wife a glass of wine is a sweetheart.
A woman who gets up to get her husband a beer is oppressed.
Welcome to the culture we've created.
AB at January 2, 2010 5:56 AM
Again, damn!! Where are the Amy's out there?? Didn't know you had ADHD. I was DX'ed in 2006 which explained a ton of things for me. And actually made it easier to embark on my second career (personal trainer).
Richard Cook at January 2, 2010 6:12 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/01/02/if_men_are_so_i.html#comment-1686094">comment from Richard CookCongrats on getting diagnosed. It's really helpful. Gregg's take on it, which always makes me laugh -- asking me, "Do I have your divided attention?"
P.S. For the uninitiated, ADHD is like having 16 squirrels in your head, all running off in different directions. It's also a wonderful thing -- helps me make quick connections, puns, etc., I think.
Amy Alkon at January 2, 2010 6:24 AM
I once had a phsyciatrist diagnose me as slightly scizophrenic and paranoid.
But she was working for the state so its not like I could trust her
lujlp at January 2, 2010 6:44 AM
You know, sometimes I want to ask these women who act like it's a sin that (some) men want women to do the dishes for them just who, exactly, does the major household repairs? Who mows the lawn?
I know I'm overgeneralizing. After all, not everybody owns their home or has a lawn, and of those who do, people make their own arrangements.
But how many of the women who throw a FIT at the idea that a guy doesn't do "his share" of the dishes scream for him to come running when the sink (or roof) starts leaking? And then (at most) stand there and hand him tools while he does the repair work?
jen at January 2, 2010 6:51 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/01/02/if_men_are_so_i.html#comment-1686097">comment from lujlpYou really have to be careful of these people. I've blogged here before that a guy in NYC wanted to give me LITHIUM! After talking to me once for 45 minutes. Hello?! If you've ever met me, you'll see I'm one of the least depressive and more coldly rational people you'll meet. I was having a hard time because I wasn't making enough money to live on and I couldn't find a boyfriend. Not exactly the listings in the DSM.
A friend with ADD (diagnosed in childhood) told me I probably had it. I don't consider ADHD, which I supposedly have, a disorder, but a different kind of brain functioning. But, in order to get the drugs that help you function better, it has to be a disorder. So, disorder it is. Basically, I have to pay bills right away or I'll forget them, and I often can't remember if I've printed something...seconds after I've printed it. But, I love my brain; it's my favorite toy...probably tied with my boyfriend, who's endlessly interesting, fun, and funny.
The one way women should bully men is the way I bully Gregg: about his health. I just sent him home with two bottles of pharmaceutical-grade fish oil. The 5,000 iu caps of Vitamin D are in the mail. He grumbles at my bossiness in this area, but secretly loves it. (You find a good guy, you've got to see he sticks around, and not in doctors' waiting rooms.)
Amy Alkon at January 2, 2010 6:53 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/01/02/if_men_are_so_i.html#comment-1686098">comment from jenYou know, sometimes I want to ask these women who act like it's a sin that (some) men want women to do the dishes for them just who, exactly, does the major household repairs?
I just don't understand the resentment from some of these women. My friends tend to be like Kate Coe, who had this series of depressing tweets yesterday about her sink being clogged when she was having a dinner party that night. Plumber late, plumber later, plumber a dipshit, sink still clogged...husband Nick back from his cycling, fixes the sink pronto. Kate, grateful beyond belief.
If you love somebody, you're happy to do nice things for them. If you don't wait to find a nice guy, and marry the first guy who gets in your pants at the bar some night, and hope it turns out okay, well, your fault for not vetting better.
Amy Alkon at January 2, 2010 6:55 AM
This anti-male crap has crept so deeply into our culture that many women seem to regard their main roles in life as being to continually snipe at a man and find all that's 'wrong' with him. Yawn. I've seen it in women I've dated, and I see it in many of my friends' relationships and marriages. A relationship is a partnership, not a mini battle for domination over the other.
I work very hard at running my business (I 'bring home the bacon', and am not ashamed to admit it), and have always happened to earn more money than the women I've dated, so since I usually pay for most everything I don't think it's asking too much in most cases for the woman to do a bit more of the housework like dishes. I dated a woman recently (very briefly) who not only did nothing all day, but expected me to come home after a long day's work and then *cook for her* (every day) or take her to a restaurant. Then she'd spend half her time whining about how bad men are and how stupid and idiotic I was and all the things I was doing. Spoilt and entitled. Needless to say that didn't last long.
Lobster at January 2, 2010 8:09 AM
Maybe this is a Russian thing. Russian males seem to be dysfunctional nowadays with decreasing life expectancy and high alcoholism, and Russian women looking abroad for mates. Is there a grain of truth in this?
lsomber at January 2, 2010 8:22 AM
This is as bad for women as it is for men. I try to remember to remind my daughter that the only kinds of men we see in print and video (a. Bumbling idiot, and b. Brutal asshole) are not the men we know in real life, i.e., her father, uncle, grandfathers, cousins, friends, etc., so she won't be brainwashed about the nature of the relationship between men and women. I had to figure it out on my own, swimming against a cultural tide and fortunately with common sense, but it still took a while.
Robin at January 2, 2010 8:28 AM
By the way, this translation reminds me hilariously of the Boris and Natasha style of spoken English.
Robin at January 2, 2010 8:29 AM
I grew up with a father who was very handy so it was weird to me when I was with a man who couldn't fix something. The funny thing about it is that there are plenty of handymen in the Pennysaver who will come fix it. And as far as the dishes. I'm guilty of liking them done a certain way so I don't have a problem clearing off the table and washing them. The only day it was every different was on Sundays during football. Because I'm a huge fan, it would be pizza and paper plate day. What's so hard about that? Getting caught up in all the pettiness of who does what signals a dissatisfaction in the relationship. Its never really about the dishes and those stupid articles in Glamour and Cosmo don't help anyone's cause.
Kristen at January 2, 2010 8:30 AM
Dishes:
In my and beloved's homes the dishes are done by the one who did not prepare or bring the food. Simple! Several of our friends are the same way, like the one I am staying with near DC now.
I do have the urge to pick up after my guy, but he stops me and cleans up his own messes.
That dancing thing, I think he is grateful I am not into it. Our greetings after trips are similar to your and Greg's, but just isn't dancing ;)
Suki at January 2, 2010 8:36 AM
Kristen, I call that sort of getting caught up in pettiness "keeping score". As if the relationship with the person you supposedly love is a competitive sport in which you are trying to crush your opponent. Also, I've noticed that people who keep score somehow always score every situation to their own advantage.
Robin at January 2, 2010 8:53 AM
"Maybe this is a Russian thing. Russian males seem to be dysfunctional nowadays with decreasing life expectancy and high alcoholism, and Russian women looking abroad for mates. Is there a grain of truth in this?"
More than a grain:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/813193.stm
Key points:
Life expectancy for Russian men is 59 (72 foe women)
2/3rds of Russian men die drunk
The most common day of death is Monday, after a weekend of non-stop drinking.
Some of these guys may have been driven to drink themselves to death by harridans like the ones in this Pravda article, but on the whole it's not surprising that many Russian women are looking for greener pastures abroad. All the men I know of who've married Russian or Ukrainian women are very pleased with them.
Martin at January 2, 2010 9:51 AM
Oops, 72 for women.
Martin at January 2, 2010 9:53 AM
Here's the line that really got to me:
"At the same time, men are incapable of doing anything they consider unpleasant."
Has this person never met a male firefighter, police officer, farmer, doctor, or, for god's sake, solider? Mostly men, and jobs that require a high tolerence for unpleasantness.
Many men do great things to support their families. Do you think that they find those things pleasant?
Lyssa at January 2, 2010 10:08 AM
Articles like this are a staple of women's publications. This one is relatively light hearted. Some of the articles that you'll see on english language women's sites and magazines really are vicious. They promote a very narcissistic concept of relationships.
moonie at January 2, 2010 10:47 AM
Or a male janitor or plumber? Or any male wage slave in a job he hates, but does so his family will have food and shelter.
Men do plenty of unpleasant things to support their families.
After experiencing the fallout of two major industry downsizings (aerospace in the 70s), my father spent 20+ years at a government job that he hated in order to provide his children with a roof over their heads and a college education. Since successive governors tried to balance the state's budget by freezing non-union government employee wages, he went several years without even a cost-of-living raise. He quit that job the very day the last of us graduated from college. I'll wager that he considered that job "unpleasant."
====================
Several years ago, I had lunch with three young married female coworkers who were discussing whether they would continue to work after they had children. All three had that option (well-paid working husbands). Two decided they would not continue to work. The third said her husband thought she should continue to work, but that she would change his mind.
These were educated professional women with well-paying jobs. Not one expressed the possibility that her husband could stay home and she would work. And two of them made as much or more money than their husbands did.
Conan the Grammarian at January 2, 2010 11:03 AM
There probably is. Russian peasants were effectively slaves - tied to the land and brutally exploited. When Lenin and his successors took over, the peasants were forced into being factory laborers and any attempt to find personal satisfaction not sanctioned by the state was considered "selfish."
Raising your children to have a better life than you did was not an option for the majority of Russians under the Czars or the communists.
That means that, for centuries, Russians had few sources of solace that did not include drinking. Today, low wages, a stagnant economy, and government by thugocracy haven't given them any new options.
Conan the Grammarian at January 2, 2010 11:21 AM
Thank you Conan for saying that. I'm half Russian, my mother is from Arch Angel, Russia. My uncle actually drank himself to death a few years ago. My mother told me it's because there's no jobs and all the men have nothing to do but drink, that's why they are dying so young. Also, this nonsense outlook is everywhere, not just Russia, so it's not just Russian women that have a narccisstic outlook on relationships and also, speaking as a Russian woman, it's not all Russian women. My mom has always done the household chores and has never complained, my father does other things, they have a balanced relationship.
Nina at January 2, 2010 2:48 PM
@Robin-it is keeping score and yes, the scorekeeping never seems particularly fair. I'm sure there are situations where there are partners that take advantage, but I still say there are bigger problems in that relationship than the dishes. Life is way too short to sweat who is washing the dishes.
Kristen at January 2, 2010 3:15 PM
I'm still laughing at the sheer stupidity of the statement that men are all lonely because we can't bear children. Oh, yes, my secret desire to spend nine months as an incubator, the latter six months with an increasingly distended belly, waddling everywhere, engaged in a Herculean struggle just to lift myself out of chair.
If men gave birth, labor would be over in an instant. First contraction, squeeze and FOOM! out pops the kid into the waiting catcher's mitt of the nurse who stands ten feet back. The obstetrician would be standing to one side with a samurai sword to cut the cord as the kid launches out of us. Oh, yes, my kingdom to give birth and have a kid hanging off my nipple for six months to a year.
Patrick at January 2, 2010 4:23 PM
Hasn't Pravda basically turned into the Russian version of the Weekly World News?
Cousin Dave at January 2, 2010 8:16 PM
Exactly!
Mike Hunter at January 2, 2010 8:50 PM
wow. i'm not even interested in men but i like them better than that.
whatever at January 2, 2010 9:01 PM
> I know I'm overgeneralizing.
Not every generalization is an overgeneralization. Some truth is "general", and you shouldn't have to add a preemptive apology every time you cite that kind of truth.
In the 90's, during the doggy-est days of my heterosexual horndog splendor, I used to go to an AIDS clinic in West Hollywood for a yearly blood test. It's not that my behaviors were all that risky, or that my partners were all that sketchy... But there was a health crisis going on, so annual certification of hematic cleanliness seemed like a good investment, a good way to convince women that I took our health seriously.
Nowadays I don't date nearly as much. And giving platelets once or twice a month makes a distinct test sort of silly. The point was never to show off, neither sexually nor politically.... But getting those tests from Ground Zero of the 'plague' felt like a righteous political move... They needed a few liberal white guys coming through the clinic who were [A] willing to pay full price for the test, and [B] not offensively stupid about what the procedure meant.
But the place was run by lesbians, and they were about as politically snooty as a person could be. They were never actually out-loud rude... But everything in their demeanor towards me, every tone out of their mouths, said Goddammit Mr. Normal, you are on our territory now, and don't you forget it!
Not a problem; that's why I was there, after all, to show a little solidarity with a corner of the community that was really hurting. Even if I thought those women were goofy for their politics and for the pretentious protocols of their "clinic", there was zero doubt in my mind that they'd had to explain to many decent, inarticulate, and impoverished young men that death would soon come to take them. They were interpersonally facing down a monster which I, in my middle-class / heterosexual / Westside / careerist life, was not having to deal with.
But I'll never forget the literature in the waiting room (lots of pink cushions on white wicker). Aside from the typical lefty political stuff you'd expect to see, there were a few magazines of the Martha Stewart flavor, decorative arts and so forth. There were no car magazines. There were no military magazines or sports magazines or anything like that. The logistic arts were NOT represented. Basically, this was a realm where conventional masculinity did not exist.
And I kinda thought, y'know, these people's lives are not being directed with an unblinking view of human nature, and this may be one reason the health crisis is happening.
I didn't say that to them though, I just paid by check and went home.
It's easy to admire Amy's sensible approach to things like this — an approach she shares with many of her commenters here, whom I also admire. And I enjoy arguing with her OTHER commenters enormously... It's a fantastic way to waste time. If you absolutely must tilt at windmills, I heartily recommend snarking at people who are naive about human sexuality. It's tremendous fun, and it never ends!
But lets remember that Pravda is a relatively primitive journalistic enterprise anyway, one hatched from the weakest imaginable editorial heritage. They probably haven't mastered the finer points of the Western world's saucy & provocative tabloid writing... They're just trying to play like the big kids in London and New York and Florida.
And to my knowledge, no one has ever described Russia as a sexual paradise, unless they're in the mail-order bride business.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at January 2, 2010 10:42 PM
>>But how many of the women who throw a FIT at the idea that a guy doesn't do "his share" of the dishes scream for him to come running when the sink (or roof) starts leaking? And then (at most) stand there and hand him tools while he does the repair work?
But jen - doing the dishes is a daily bore. If your roof/sink is leaking as regularly as the dishes need doing, then you're both living in a hovel.
(I agree with Amy in general; it's an uncommonly stupid article.)
Jody Tresidder at January 4, 2010 10:51 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/01/02/if_men_are_so_i.html#comment-1686410">comment from Jody TresidderGregg just went out in the rain for the second time today and got me another Americano. Yesterday, as he was sitting in bed in our hotel working on his laptop, I asked him if I could bring him a glass of water. He said yes, and I asked if he wouldn't rather have it with ice, and I'd go out and fill the ice bucket and get him some, which I did. Find a person with good character, and then focus on all the ways you can be nice to them. Being nice to them should make you happy. If you don't feel that way, you're with the wrong person or just pebble-hearted and/or short-sighted.
Amy Alkon at January 4, 2010 11:13 AM
Yes, but if you're falling off of ladders whilst doing dishes, something's wrong.
brian at January 4, 2010 12:13 PM
It's kind of like the old engineer story.
====================
The engineer had worked for the factory for many years. The new manager was not happy that the engineer didn't seem to work much. So, he analyzed the situation and decided to replace the engineer with a maintenance guy.
Within a short time, the factory's machine broke down. The new maintenance guy could not figure out what was wrong with it. Consulting engineers could not figure out what was wrong.
Finally, the manager called the laid-off engineer, who refused to help him. To get the manager off his back the engineer finally demanded $100,000 to fix the machine. The desperate manager agreed.
The engineer arrived with a tool box, walked around the machine, stroked his beard, set his tool box down, opened it, took out a hammer, and gave the machine a hard whack. It started working right away.
The manager was relieved...at first. But, after he'd thought about it for a while, he decided he would not pay $100,000 for a former employee to whack a machine with a hammer. He could have done that himself.
So, he demanded the engineer justify his outrageous price with an itemized invoice, figuring the engineer could never justify so high a cost for so simple an act.
The next day the manager received the invoice. It read: "Striking machine with hammer - $1.00 / Knowing where to strike - $99,999."
====================
Sometimes doing the daily dishes is the price you pay for having someone around who knows how to fix a leaky roof in a rainstorm, climbs the wobbly ladder to do things, and is willing to kill spiders.
Conan the Grammarian at January 4, 2010 1:24 PM
What bothers me more than the title (*ALL* women are this judgy and hateful? Thanks.) is the us vs. them attitude that pervades articles written for women by women. Just one year of studying any woman's magazine and you can learn how to con him into proposing all while stifling your well of hatred and resentment for everything he does/says! Read for two years and learn to hate him for the things he doesn't do/doesn't say!
JNM at January 4, 2010 5:43 PM
So one bitter chick pens a tepid, poorly-written article and suddenly she's the voice of all women everywhere? This is hardly representative of how most women think. Hell, she's not even American. Amy, I honestly don't know why you waste your time calling attention to gender warmongering crap like this-you're just preaching to the choir because NO one on this site or any rational person anywhere is going to say, "gee, I think that lady has a point!" You might as well devote blog space to disproving "Ten Reasons Why Michael Jackson is Still Alive and Shacking Up With Elvis's Alien Baby."
Shannon at January 4, 2010 9:19 PM
"So one bitter chick pens a tepid, poorly-written article and suddenly she's the voice of all women everywhere? This is hardly representative of how most women think. Hell, she's not even American. Amy, I honestly don't know why you waste your time calling attention to gender warmongering crap like this-you're just preaching to the choir because NO one on this site or any rational person anywhere is going to say, "gee, I think that lady has a point!""
No one on this site maybe, but here is the situation. Articles such as these pop up with alarming regularity, one such as this was featured in O magazine not too long ago. Then this sentiment seems to be clearly seen in many parts of North American Society. If this sentiment wasn't at least partially accepted, then where is the collective dismissal of her obviously erroneous viewpoint?
Maybe most women don't share her opinion, but I also don't think there are a lot of women who completely disagree with it either.
Amax at January 9, 2010 5:01 PM
Recently, I had a wall beer opener installed in our kitchen. And, while I am not ready to give up my regular bottle opener. However, it is very nice having it as a backup in case I lose my portable opener.
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folding picnic table at April 26, 2010 12:51 PM
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