"Miss Manners With Fangs"
Love that. That's the headline on Gendy Alimurung's wonderful piece on me in the LA Weekly, accompanied by a pretty fantastic photograph of me by Kevin Scanlon. It's really great in the print edition. Page 11, I think!
Here's the blog item mentioned in the piece about the guys who woke me (and probably half my block) at around 2 a.m.
When they didn't apologize, I said, "Clearly, you were badly raised."
Amazingly, the guy wonders why I'm mad, and reaches right for the race card: "Are you saying that because we're Asian."
"No, I said. Because you're loud, inconsiderate ASSHOLES!"
Have you ever gone after early morning gardeners with leafblowers? I wish death upon all of them quite regularly, but would settle for the law actually being applied to their illegal noisemakers.
LYT at February 26, 2010 1:01 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/02/26/la_weekly_piece.html#comment-1697960">comment from LYTI have, LYT (gone after leafblowing). A creep who has a business across the street from houses, three houses from mine, who thinks he can just abuse all of us. Wrong!
Here (below), is the bit on leafblowing from the LA Noise Ordinance. This is something community policing officers are supposed to deal with. Call your local station or look up who it is.
Some people might not know it's illegal. If you just write them a nice note, accompanied by the LA Noise Ordinance bit below, they might worry that they'll get fined and tell the gardener to get a broom. Or, they might even realize they're being rude. My favorite was the gardeners next door who were leafblowing all the crap off the walk there right into my yard. That stopped. Fast.
Anyway, I took video of the weekly 8 am serenade, e-mailed it to the creep who owns the business, along with the link/excerpt below and notes about fines for noise violations. Again, his biz is right across from houses (he lives in another neighborhood not plagued by his rude noise). He can get his gardeners to use a goddamn broom, and if he persists with the leaf-blowing, another neighbor and I will get his ass fined.
http://www.nonoise.org/lawlib/cities/losangel.htm
Rick Barrs wrote about this, by the way. Bugged the hell out of him.
Amy Alkon at February 26, 2010 2:00 AM
PS The thing is, they generally do it at about the same day and time.
Amy Alkon at February 26, 2010 2:02 AM
Amy,
I am so glad you are finally getting the reognition you deserve.
But the fangs thing is breakin' my heart.
Couldn't they have gone with " ... With Attitude"?
Or "The MIss Manners You Don't Mess With"?
Ken at February 26, 2010 7:10 AM
See that 6?
reognition?
It's mittens; I tell ya.
Ken at February 26, 2010 7:13 AM
re: the original story: what I've seen sometimes work is calling the bar and telling them to get people to move or you're calling the police. The bars don't want cops to regularly hang out there due to complaints.
plutosdad at February 26, 2010 7:56 AM
Great article, Amy! I especially liked this: "As you might have guessed, Alkon has a tornado of a personality. She's one-woman surround sound."
Got a visual of a red-headed whirling dervish - a female Taz, of sorts, only nicer!
Flynne at February 26, 2010 8:12 AM
re: the original story: what I've seen sometimes work is calling the bar and telling them to get people to move or you're calling the police. The bars don't want cops to regularly hang out there due to complaints.
You'd think. I used to call the owner of this bar at 2am to say, "We're up because of the customers at your bar, we thought you'd want to know."
This guy apparently uses the police so he won't have to hire adequate staff to police his thuggish customers. I took iPhone video (all the way from my porch, and it was dark, but you could hear the people SCREAMING) and e-mailed it to him.
SUBJECT: Persistent screaming outside your bar
He writes:
What an asshole. There are disturbances because his bouncers just stand there and do fuck all.
This is me being nice to the guy. 40 of my neighbors and I went to the zoning board and stopped him from opening an outdoor patio. I'm actually pro-business (pro-well-run business that doesn't steal our sleep) but don't get to keep the neighborhood up all night and then get rewarded with rights to do it some more.
Amy Alkon at February 26, 2010 9:23 AM
When they didn't apologize, I said, "Clearly, you were badly raised."
Amazingly, the guy wonders why I'm mad, and reaches right for the race card: "Are you saying that because we're Asian."
SOOOOO annoying when people can't be bothered to know how they're being stereotyped, and also annoying when they're too lazy to come up with their own whines. They sound thoroughly Americanized.
Jim at February 26, 2010 9:38 AM
Amy,
Necessity is the mother of invention.
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/detail.gsp?image=http://i.walmartimages.com/i/p/00/02/31/85/08/0002318508150_500X500.jpg&product_id=10535851&iIndex=1&isVariant=false&corpCard=false&type=-9223372036854775808
ahhhhhhhhhh, Look, Ma, no mittens!
Ken at February 26, 2010 10:02 AM
Actually, THESE are earplugs -- Hearos Xtreme Protection, 14-Pair Foam (Pack of 3) -- and I have them, and they don't drown out the noise of people screaming outside our houses, four feet from our houses, at 2 am. Oh, and playing their thunka-thunka-boom radios with their car doors open at 2am, four feet from our houses.
And why should I have to wear ear plugs to sleep every night because a selfish jerk doesn't hire adequate staff to run his bar?
Amy Alkon at February 26, 2010 10:09 AM
Hey Amy...
Received a check this morning for $600.00 from a telemarketer who screwed up and called me at 6:45 AM. Gave my standard line as to the requirements under the TCPA and the company did the right thing and settled before I had to file in court.
After endorsing and signing the check over to Julian's school (you know me and my thing about the fact that I did not earn the money, so give to charity) and giving to the Principal, I got back in the car and turned on NPR. "I know that voice!"...you on NPR...felt quite appropriate...
See you on Sunday!
André-Tascha Lammé at February 26, 2010 10:35 AM
Sweet picture!
Sabrina at February 26, 2010 10:40 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/02/26/la_weekly_piece.html#comment-1698212">comment from André-Tascha LamméI LOVE THAT! Wonderful, André-Tascha.
(Regarding signing it over to the school, for those who haven't read my book -- he and his site are in there, http://www.killthecalls.com/, I refer to André-Tascha as a "bleeding-heart Republican.")
I will be appearing at Venezio Winery in Sacramento on Sunday, Feb. 28, 2pm., as part of their Grape Gatsby writer's series: http://www.venezio.com/events/index.cfm?FuseCalendar_ID=153&CurntDate=02/26/2010&FuseAction=ShowEvent
If you're anywhere in the area, come on by:
PS Sam is making me wear jeans, so don't be surprised. I will otherwise look like me (high-heeled cowboy boots, diamond tiara, etc. And yes, I'm kidding about the tiara. I only wear it around the house.)
Amy Alkon at February 26, 2010 11:03 AM
Amy, that photo of you is AMAZING. If I had one of me that looked that great, I would have it blown up and placed prominently in my home. :)
Karen M at February 26, 2010 11:17 AM
Aww, thanks - the art director for the LA Weekly was so sweet to hire him. http://kevinscanlon.com/
Amy Alkon at February 26, 2010 11:47 AM
And why should I have to wear ear plugs to sleep every night because a selfish jerk doesn't hire adequate staff to run his bar?
Posted by: Amy Alkon at February 26, 2010 10:09 AM
Amy,
Of course, you shouldn't, but what are you going to do?
Here is another tip. I have been using this for some time. May act as an anti=alzheimer's agent.
http://www.benbest.com/nutrceut/melatonin.html#alzheimer
Ken at February 26, 2010 11:54 AM
The "fangs" slur is just another attempt to demonize anyone who would try to make a dent into our rotten rudeness culture.
Crusader at February 26, 2010 12:31 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/02/26/la_weekly_piece.html#comment-1698360">comment from CrusaderThanks, Crusader, but I think they were just trying to be funny. I loved it.
Amy Alkon at February 26, 2010 12:49 PM
I want the targeted EMP gun that the Air Force is working on.
Point, Click, Die. Kills electronics dead.
Barring that, if you're large and stupid like me, you walk toward the offending car with your baseball bat and "make them an offer they can not refuse".
brian at February 26, 2010 2:14 PM
Amy: you look stunning!
I plan on wearing a luxurious ball gown to my wedding in October (as opposed to a "wedding dress"). Your dress inspired me and has me feeling excited about my trip to Bloomingdale's tomorrow!
Gretchen at February 26, 2010 2:40 PM
Dear Amy,
The world is not your personal bubble. Step outside of your little bubble and enjoy life sometime. If we could all control every little thing that happened around us, it would be a few million little dictatorships. Unfortunately, we have to live together. Instead of concentrating your energy on disseminating people's manners, why don't you put your abundant energy towards doing something good for humanity like, raising awareness about human rights, poverty or hunger?
Sean O'Brien at February 26, 2010 3:05 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/02/26/la_weekly_piece.html#comment-1698382">comment from Sean O'BrienDear Sean,
These are not big "crimes" these social bullies inflict on us, but they make our daily lives stressful and ugly.
If you'd read my book, you'd find that I created a program called WIT: What It Takes, to demystify making it for "at-risk" kids and speak monthly at an inner-city high school. I have the most beautiful folder of thank you notes on my desk from the last class I spoke to, telling me how I made a difference in their thinking about what's possible for them, and in turn, maybe a difference in their lives.
I applied for Google funding (didn't get it) to have Boys & Girls Clubs of America administer it across the country from the youngest grades on. All speakers are volunteers -- the only money would go toward administration (I wouldn't see a dime of it, nor would anybody but BGCA).
Had you read my book, you'd also read about a homeless artist I help, Gary Musselman. For those who are wondering, he's in Illinois right now, and will come back when he can, but he and Susi, who's pretty much his partner in his art, are doing well. Struggling, but they seem in good spirits. She just e-mailed me. Gary got offered a show at an LA Gallery but there are details that must be worked out and when he's back a friend and I will smooth things through for him.
I also write letters to an autistic boy "from the elephants," and I'm helping a friend who had his health insurance cancelled. To name a few. I do plenty, and I feel it's important to speak out against victimizations, large and small.
Again, the small ones are what makes it miserable to go out, to be in public, to be on the roads. Do you know how awful it is to not be able to sleep three nights a week, on average, because a business owner is a selfish jerk, disrespectful of the neighborhood? Why is that unimportant?
What I ask, Sean O'Brien, is that in shared spaces people behave as if they're sharing space, not as dictators who seize the shared space as their own. Why in the world would you take issue with that -- unless you're one of the victimizers?
Amy Alkon at February 26, 2010 3:16 PM
Sean,
Right on!
Bottom line ...
It's not all about us.
Ken at February 26, 2010 3:47 PM
I appreciate what you may or may not do for people. My point was that, on the radio program you just sounded, forgive me, almost crazy with your reasoning behind your work. Who are you to tell people that they can't bring a child on a plane? It seems to me that you feel that everyone should follow your guidelines about what you deem to be proper manners. My mother raised me well, I am extremely considerate about my interactions with people. Your rant was almost the antithesis of the behavior that you are ridiculing. I understand that you are intelligent and a fantastic writer. Like I said in my email to you, based on the interview that you gave NPR, I would never read your book and I am sure that there are plenty of people as miffed as I was. I know, also, that you will come up with some witty kind of response because, that's what you do for a living. I work in IT and I am not much of a writer. All I am asking of you is to step outside of yourself to understand that, sometimes people have their own reasons for having to do things that annoy you. It could be an emergency, passion or any other multitude of reasons. I am sure that the majority of people who do so do not intend to make life more difficult for any other human. At least I like to hope so.
For your final question, I am not one of the victimizers. I try to make the world around me a better place for people around. Your argument of "victimizer" is exactly what I meant by stepping outside of your bubble. You are only "victimized" by these types of actions if you choose to be. Stand up, empower yourself and take whatever types of actions you need to to correct the situation. If you cannot change the situation then, there are plenty of places you can go to not deal with it. Like you said in the radio interview, go to your living room. No one will victimize you there will they? You expect people to not take their kids on vacations because you are annoyed by said kids? That's just plain ludicrous.
Sean O'Brien at February 26, 2010 3:50 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/02/26/la_weekly_piece.html#comment-1698387">comment from Sean O'BrienI'm not telling anyone what they can and cannot do, but stating my opinion. Crazy, I know, but I think you have no right, if your child is in "the feral stage," and he or she is rather likely to scream for hours on a plane, to inflict your child on the other passengers.
My guidelines for proper manners -- consideration, really -- are this: Recognize that there are other people in the world, and act accordingly.
Care about their welfare -- don't selfishly be all ME! ME! ME! in the way you behave. Care whether you're playing your music so loudly somebody next door can't sleep. Care whether you're driving dangerously and might injure another person on the road. Care that somebody at a coffee house might like to think their own thoughts instead of having you stream some loud, dull business conversation into their brain.
I write in my book, as I said on the radio, that it seems from my research that people are rude because we live in societies that are too big for our brains. When you are around people who are strangers, and if you are a narcissistic jerk, you'll get away with plenty, because you can. Rudeness is the human condition, I write in the book, but around people you know, even if you are a jerk, there are constraints on you. I propose ways to bring back those constraints so the rude jerks of the world will feel they can't inflict themselves on us unimpeded.
You write: "You expect people to not take their kids on vacations because you are annoyed by said kids? That's just plain ludicrous."
I expect them to take the station wagon until their kids are at a stage where they will not disturb other passengers for hours on end with their screaming, while those passengers are trapped, 30,000 feet up, in a cramped metal tube.
As I said on the radio, if there's an emergency, by all means, take little Screamie on the plane. Emergencies include: Granny's dying, not just dying to see the kids. Kid needs a liver transplant on the other side of the country.
People should not have to suffer for hours on a flight because somebody decided to reproduce.
A Spanish proverb: "Take what you want, but pay for it."
What you're talking about is making other people pay the freight of others' choices. Nope. Doesn't work for me.
Amy Alkon at February 26, 2010 4:00 PM
"You expect people to not take their kids on vacations because you are annoyed by said kids? That's just plain ludicrous."
Sean I didn't hear the NPR broadcast so I'm not sure how Amy came across there, but based on reading her blog for a few years I don't think that's exactly what she means.
You're misinterpreting Amy's desire for parents to raise well behaved kids as a desire for all kids to be locked up in a dungeon until they're 25 (hey that would mean I could get out of the dungeon in a few weeks!).
While there are some kids who would benefit from that, most well behaved kids are the result of bad parenting. Also, sometimes kids have plain meltdowns. I'm sure we all have during our youth.
So:
1) Kids who are poorly parented are ALWAYS a displeasure to be around. Those kids ruin everyone's dinner, etc. and no, those parents don't have a "right" to subject others to that. When I see kids in a nice restaurant and they behave nicely I go over and compliment them. And I sure hope that means they get a nice big sundae for dessert.
2) Because all kids have nuclear melt-downs, parents need to anticipate this. This probably means not going on vacations that require long plane travel for a few years. My parents didn't take me to the Bahamas when I was 3 and I assure you, I am not upset about it. I babysit for parents who DO go to the Bahamas and I make good money minding their children. Kids don't remember that stuff. I went to Disney when I was 4 and only remember the monorail inside our hotel (The Contemporary) and being scared shitless on a ride which my mom later told me was the Viking one.
That said, I do agree with a notion you seem to have which is "tolerance". And I'll agree that sometimes Amy doesn't seem to have a lot of it, but I daresay this is because she is repeating a theme with these posts about rudeness but not constantly posting about events where "a kid was kind of freaking out but the mom was assuaging him so it didn't bother me at all." That's boring. I'll assume Amy doesn't flip her lid when a child so much as sneezes.
Gretchen at February 26, 2010 4:04 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/02/26/la_weekly_piece.html#comment-1698389">comment from KenSean, Right on! Bottom line ... It's not all about us.
Ken, you seem to have missed the point. This is about how things used to be, when parents taught their children "it's not all about you," that there are other people in the world and there's a need to behave accordingly.
I respect my friend Hillary Johnson, who I write about in the book, who didn't take her son (a rather "spirited" child when he was a tot) out to restaurants for a few years, until he could behave appropriately for restaurants (ie, not disturb other patrons, etc.)
Amy Alkon at February 26, 2010 4:04 PM
Oops. Looks like Amy is lurking and beat me on her own argument!
Gretchen at February 26, 2010 4:05 PM
"most well behaved kids are the result of bad parenting."
Uh typo. Bad parenting = bad kids and vice versa.
Gretchen at February 26, 2010 4:06 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/02/26/la_weekly_piece.html#comment-1698392">comment from GretchenThanks, Gretchen - always better to have other people explain you than having to do it yourself.
Amy Alkon at February 26, 2010 4:15 PM
Sean, Right on! Bottom line ... It's not all about us.
Ken, you seem to have missed the point. This is about how things used to be, when parents taught their children "it's not all about you," that there are other people in the world and there's a need to behave accordingly.
I respect my friend Hillary Johnson, who I write about in the book, who didn't take her son (a rather "spirited" child when he was a tot) out to restaurants for a few years, until he could behave appropriately for restaurants (ie, not disturb other patrons, etc.)
Posted by: Amy Alkon at February 26, 2010 4:04 PM
Amy,
I am not clear about your meaning. Brian's point was to get outside of your (Amy's) bubble, right, Brian?
Ken at February 26, 2010 4:29 PM
Amy,
I am not clear about your meaning. Brian's point was to get outside of your (Amy's) bubble, right, Brian?
Should read:
Amy,
I am not clear about your meaning. Sean's point was to get outside of your (Amy's) bubble, right, Sean?
Ken at February 26, 2010 4:31 PM
Sean, there are plenty of folks out there who will lash out at any rude/racist/trite remark by insulting the person who said it with the same type of name-calling that they profess to dislike.
Back Off! (a now out of print anti-harassment book) advised people to label the behavior but not the person. That may seem like a fine distinction, but to my mind calling someone "poor, dumb, deluded moron" is different from telling them "that remark was totally obnoxious, and I don't ever want to hear it again".
I think it's a form of intellectual laziness, because it so much quicker to dismiss the person in one sweeping gesture than to actually be specific, and the short cut is to defeat all comers through sheer volume. Especially if you can get all your friends to chime in and jump down the person's throat.
Also, labeling behavior is a lot more respectful than labeling the person. Respecting someone who's annoying you WHILE STILL STANDING UP TO THEM takes a huge effort, whereas lashing out in anger and revenge takes no effort at all and feels so much more satisfying.
Social censure (the nice name for ganging up on someone) does have a legitimate function, however. Once I was on the DC Metro and some guy just wouldn't leave me alone. As I got off the train, I finally turned to him and in a very loud voice said to him, "I am getting off here. I don't want you following me and bothering me! GO AWAY!"
I was so scared to "make a scene" that I was shaking, but as soon as I said the words, EVERYONE on the train stared at him et voila, off he slunk. Me, wondering why it was so hard for me to break out of whatever perverse ladylike social conditioning that had me so paralyzed.
But you know what? I didn't call the guy a moron, or an asshole, or anything. I'm not sure I could have been that way at 2am, though. I probably would have tried to hit those drunks with a big pipe. Miss Manners would not have approved.
vi at February 26, 2010 4:35 PM
When I see kids in a nice restaurant and they behave nicely I go over and compliment them.
I always do this -- compliment good parents.
Also, if somebody's kid is acting up, and the parent is trying to do something about it, I feel compassion for them, not anger.
I don't know what broadcast Sean listened to, but I described something I experience from time to time -- and did experience: Two mothers talking to each other in a cafe I eat at while their kids screamed in their strollers. They were ignoring their screaming kids and focusing on their conversation. Rude, rude, rude!
Also, I write in the book about my friend Sergeant Heather, who has the autistic child I write to every few weeks (I mail him letters "from the elephants"). Heather needs to train him to be in public, so she takes him to VERY select events, like school functions. When she does, she taps people around her on the shoulder, and says, "Excuse me, I just want to let you know my son's autistic, and there may be an outburst," and she lets them know she's sorry if there is, and she'll deal with it (take him outside, etc.)
People are glad to show generosity of spirit in situations like this -- they just need to know that you aren't simply a bad parent who doesn't give a damn about anybody else's eardrums.
Amy Alkon at February 26, 2010 4:52 PM
"while their kids screamed in their strollers."
And to take this one step further: in a lot of cases kids have tantrums and ignoring the behavior is sometimes the best way to deal.
BUT. These kids were most likely screaming because they were bored..'cuz they're kids and being strapped in a stroller and ignored is booorrringgg when you're two. Which is why you were 100% in thinking those "mothers" were pretty rude jerks.
Also, even though ignoring a tantrum is sometimes the right thing to do, you don't do not let it go on and on in a public place. If it's a restaurant remove them immediately. If it's the middle of Target you can probably wait it out for about 2-3 minutes and if the kid can't calm down, bring the cart out front, ask them to hold it, and see if you can calm Jr. down outside.
Discretion. Common sense. I think that's what these posts are trying to get at, am I right, Amy?
My mom had to leave a cart full of groceries more than once between the three of us kids or had to leave a restaurant before the food came (I think my father might have done this too, before he went batshit insane.). I will do the same with my kids.
A side note: I don't know what the big deal about saying "take your temper tantrum-throwing child out to the car", even if it means getting your food to-go. Because while I know parents develop a special tolerance for high pitched screaming (maybe...?) they cannot possibly be enjoying themselves whist said child is mid-fit. Isn't it nicer for the parents, not just the innocent patrons, to take the food home, calm the brat down and put him/her to bed...THEN eat? Just sayin'.
Gretchen at February 26, 2010 5:22 PM
Also, even though ignoring a tantrum is sometimes the right thing to do, you don't do not let it go on and on in a public place.
Oh, Gretchen, where were you to back me up when I had to deal with the mommies who came into my store and let their kids scream while they shopped. Almost worse than the ones who just plain ignored them were the ones who explained to me that they were consciously ignoring a tantrum. I do believe that they shouldn't give the kid undue attention because of a tantrum, but not at the expense of other people in a crowded store in a crowded mall on a Saturday morning. Take the kid outside somewhere or back to the car to let him scream it out.
And to Sean and those who believe we are just annoyed by screaming kids: yes, the kids are annoying, but I always blame the parents. The good ones will at least attempt too quiet or sooth the kid. That is all I ask, that the parents are paying attention and respect that their kid is causing a disturbance that they must try to correct. And I likewise compliment the parents of well-behaved kids I see. I was at a baby shower where the parents' older son was playing with two other boys (about age three) and having a great old time with the coloring books. They had strewn their things out, but the boy picked up the crayons and such and put them in a small pile out of the way of the other guests. I told the parents I thought he was a very well-parented child and congrats on their second.
Ken: glad to see the results of your recent mitten-ectomy.
NumberSix at February 26, 2010 9:24 PM
6,
Thanks very much. :)
(gives that little half salute with a couple fingers)
Be seeing you. :)
(prison bars, prison bars, prison bars, prison bars)
Stopping just short of my face, cause this is not a Mel Brooks movie.
Ken at February 26, 2010 9:54 PM
Congratulations on your 1-page article in LA Weekly! I may not agree with your politics or modus operandi, but you do deserve kudos for your hard work. Great pix too.
Laure at February 26, 2010 9:58 PM
Going outside her bubble. Interesting idea, except for one little problem.
The ones "Not going outside the bubble" are the ones who behave in crass loud, rude, and inconsiderate behavior that ruins everybody else's good time.
An excellent parody example would be the south park episode about harley riders. Riding past a picnic, a wedding, and nice cafe style restaurants, so loudly that that inserted their noisy machines into everybody ELSES bubble, and inconvenienced them, or ruined what might have been a perfect memory...with absolute indifference, and thinking only about themselves.
Robert at February 26, 2010 10:08 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/02/26/la_weekly_piece.html#comment-1698444">comment from LaureThanks so much, Laure!
Amy Alkon at February 26, 2010 10:35 PM
Robert,
Everyone has their own bubble.
Free your mind.
Ken at February 26, 2010 11:33 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/02/26/la_weekly_piece.html#comment-1698448">comment from Sean O'BrienI am sure that the majority of people who do so do not intend to make life more difficult for any other human.
No, all they care about is their own convenience.
Amy Alkon at February 26, 2010 11:55 PM
Free your mind...and the rest will follow? Be colorblind...
NumberSix at February 27, 2010 12:03 AM
I am sure that the majority of people who do so do not intend to make life more difficult for any other human.
For me, that almost makes it worse. People who are deliberately rude are just asses, but they are at least considering those around them (and immediately dismissing them as insignificant, but the point stands). But not intending to make life more difficult for others doesn't mean that they don't, or that they should be given a pass for it. As I wanted to tell a guy in the Orlando airport last week*, just because you alone can hear the person on the other end of your cell phone doesn't mean that you are in the Cone of Silence.
*A rough transcript of the (45-year-old or so) guy's conversation: "If I wanted her, I would be with her...I thought we were getting married...The heart attack was real, the car accident was only a minor lie (my favorite part)...Your friend Chris is trying to poison you against me...I'm going to have a talk with her when I get back...Look, if I were cheating, I wouldn't be able to hide it from you..."
NumberSix at February 27, 2010 12:12 AM
Free your mind...and the rest will follow? Be colorblind...
Posted by: NumberSix at February 27, 2010 12:03 AM
6,
Why, yes, of course.
Be seeing you.
Ken at February 27, 2010 1:23 AM
Hooray, a kindred spirit! I read the article in the LA Weekly and was heartened to read that someone else has taken up the torch of public manners. I've been documenting driving madness on my blog latraffic.blogspot.com since early 2008 and have accumulated over 2600 photographs of people breaking the law and being generally rude with their automobiles. If I see you running a light, or turning left on red, or not stopping for pedestrians, I will take your picture and put it on the internet.
And at over 2600 photos, it's less a blog and more of a data set at this point. Albeit a highly personalized and opinionated data set.
All the best,
Lynn
lynn at February 28, 2010 1:15 PM
Thank you so much, Lynn! I have a photo to send you!
And Luke, leaf blower enforcement, Los Angeles:
http://www.lapdonline.org/special_operations_support_division/content_basic_view/1031
Amy Alkon at March 1, 2010 8:09 AM
I just wanted to comment a little bit on what has been said. First, Numbersix, I am not any different than you. I get annoyed by screaming kids as much as the next person. I don't believe, however, that it is my right to tell people how to raise their children. There is something that I can do though, it's simple, remove myself from the situation. Problem solved! Yes, I would be upset that i missed, insert your enjoyable event here. But, if the stress of listening to those children was bothering me enough, I would be happy to leave. As for planes? Headphones, movies, books on tape, etc. and voila, you own private bubble is created.
You guys can jump on Amy's train as much as you want but, I can guarantee you this. Children will NEVER be banned from airlines, theater's, restaurants, cafes or anywhere else. Furthermore, jsut be grateful that you can fly on a plane, see a show or eat in a restaurant. There are billions of people in the world that only get one meal a week and you really want to spend your energy on the fact that a kid is ruining your *COUGH* $45 Filet Mignon? Stop acting like spoiled little kids. There are bigger problems in this world than people being rude. Sorry, but it's true. If you choose to spend your time being concerned with silly things like this, you will have a miserable time being a part of this little experiment that we call planet earth.
-SOB
Sean O'Brien at March 1, 2010 4:59 PM
Amy's Quote;
Ken, you seem to have missed the point. This is about how things used to be, when parents taught their children "it's not all about you," that there are other people in the world and there's a need to behave accordingly.
Oh I remember how things "used to be". Women were expected to be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen and not have careers. Racism was considered normal. Teachers could smack kids around when they felt like it(I have experienced this). It was also considered ok for a parent to slap their kids silly when they were out of line.
People always talk about the "way things used to be." There was a whole lot of difference in all of our social interactions. Do we really want to go back to "the way things used to be"? I think not. As we progress in society there will always be growing pains. My mother was a public school teacher for 40+years teaching 7th and 8th grade. If you want to talk to someone about the way things used to be, you might want to look her up. She has shown me that children are not as considerate as they used to be. I think if you asked her though, she would say that the way things are now are a lot better than the way they used to be.
Perhaps, Amy, you could teach people proper parenting techniques. I kind of doubt that you have children though, hence your lack of patience for them. If I am wrong then I am an idiot for my assumption.
Sean O'Brien at March 1, 2010 5:11 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/02/26/la_weekly_piece.html#comment-1699038">comment from Sean O'BrienSean, this is exactly what it is: This is about how things used to be, when parents taught their children "it's not all about you," that there are other people in the world and there's a need to behave accordingly.
Because there were bad things at the time doesn't mean this is a bad thing.
And, FYI, giving birth to a child does not make you a parenting expert.
I know a great deal about parenting because I read about it all the time, and attend conferences and hear top experts speak on it.
Also, it's basic psychology, getting a dog or a child to obey you. They do obey me, dogs and children. And I'm probably the favorite adult in the world of nine kids in three families.
If you'd read my book instead of telling me what I think, you'd know that my ire is for bad parents. Children can't help the fact that they're born to irresponsible, narcissistic jerks who'd rather be liked than be parental.
Amy Alkon at March 1, 2010 7:44 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/02/26/la_weekly_piece.html#comment-1699040">comment from Sean O'BrienThere are bigger problems in this world than people being rude. Sorry, but it's true. If you choose to spend your time being concerned with silly things like this, you will have a miserable time being a part of this little experiment that we call planet earth. -SOB
Sean, why are you commenting on my blog when there are so many bigger problems you could be concerned with?
"Children will NEVER be banned from airlines, theater's, restaurants, cafes or anywhere else."
Good parents leave them home when they're in the feral stage lest they disturb others' peaceful enjoyment of their flight, their dinner, or the movie. Other people should not have their $45 filet mignon dinner punctuated by some brat's screams. If you find that enjoyable, reproduce and let your children scream at your dinner table.
Sean, it really is much easier to read my book than to guess what's in it.
Amy Alkon at March 1, 2010 7:48 PM
First, Numbersix, I am not any different than you.
You make that statement, and then you follow it with two posts' worth of reasons it is decidedly not true.
I don't believe, however, that it is my right to tell people how to raise their children.
It's not about telling people how to raise their children, exactly; it's about expecting people to be considerate of others in public places? Parents (theoretically) have the ability to either make their children behave properly or remove them from the situation.
Children will NEVER be banned from airlines, theater's, restaurants, cafes or anywhere else.
Who said anything about banning children from these places (except for actual bars, who I believe have every right not to admit anyone under 21)? I, for one, love children. I love the ones that sit near me in restaurants and want to play little "caught you peeking" games with me. What I don't love is the parents that allow their children to scream, hit, or otherwise disturb those around them. I have actually had great success with stopping children from yelling and running around me by simply asking them to stop that, please, you are disturbing other people. Most of the time it works. And if a complete stranger in a restaurant can do it, the parents should not have too much trouble if only they would take the trouble.
Stop acting like spoiled little kids.
Really? I'm acting like a spoiled little kid by being upset that someone feels entitled enough to let their kids be little terrors in a public place. I don't eat filet mignon, but I would still be upset that someone was disturbing my meal. Yes, I can leave, but why should I have to? I am not the one who is causing problems. You may be content to let people walk all over you, but I am not. And I am not advocating jumping up on the table and making a scene, but I have asked people nicely to please try to keep their children (or their cell phones) quiet. Trying is all I'm asking for, not turning your kids into silent automatons. The act of trying to control your child carries a lot of weight with me.
Sean, I don't know why you think that going back to the way things used to be in regard to some aspects of child-rearing need be a complete regression. We can teach our children basic manners and still have the ERA.
NumberSix at March 1, 2010 8:32 PM
How come nobody told me there was a pissing match in here? Whaddami, chopped liver?
Who ya gonna call?
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at March 1, 2010 11:53 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/02/26/la_weekly_piece.html#comment-1699054">comment from Crid [CridComment at gmail]It's pretty minor, actually. Sean is trying to do mind reading (of my mind) but he doesn't have enough juice in his packet sniffers (in English, he hasn't bought my book -- he's just guessing what's in it).
Amy Alkon at March 2, 2010 12:05 AM
I think that I have made it abundantly clear that I have not much interest in buying your book. I am not citing your book, guessing what's in it. I am citing my own personal information. This was my original point for posting in here. The rant that you went on on NPR would cause me to never have any interest whatsoever in borrowing, buying, reading or even mopping my kitchen floor with your book.
Sean, I don't know why you think that going back to the way things used to be in regard to some aspects of child-rearing need be a complete regression. We can teach our children basic manners and still have the ERA.
Because the way things were were backwards in so many ways! Fathers used to be the hammer in the family and children would "Obey" for fear of getting their asses kicked when they got home. I think that for a lot of children, they behaved back then simply because they were scared of the hammer coming down when they got home. No child should ever live in fear. Don't get me wrong, I am all for manners and teaching them should be a precedent. The way we used to teach these manners was wrong. Moving forward, I want you guys to know, again, without my words getting twisted or taken out of context, that I agree with what most of you are saying. I do not agree with some of the points on what you say. Again, this is not a discussion about Amy's book. I'm sure that her book is full of great content and very well written. I can see that Amy is an extremely capable, talented, intelligent and strong woman.
Sean O'Brien at March 2, 2010 10:15 AM
Because the way things were were backwards in so many ways! Fathers used to be the hammer in the family and children would "Obey" for fear of getting their asses kicked when they got home. I think that for a lot of children, they behaved back then simply because they were scared of the hammer coming down when they got home. No child should ever live in fear. Don't get me wrong, I am all for manners and teaching them should be a precedent. The way we used to teach these manners was wrong.
Do you think anyone here is actually advocating child abuse as manners enforcement? Of course you don't, you just enjoy making it seem like we do to make a point. I just went through that on another thread, and it annoyed me then as it annoys me now. On the off chance you aren't being deliberately obtuse on this subject, let me explain again: when Amy says she wants us go go back to "the way things used to be" in terms of teaching our kids manners, she means (if I may speak for her a moment) exactly that, teaching our kids manners. I was taught how to act in public without the fear that I would be beaten when I got home. My parents put great emphasis on the fact that I was expected to behave nicely when I was out in the world (as well as at home). The one and only time I ever started to throw a fit at a restaurant, I was quickly taken outside to the car until I calmed down and could go back and eat my dinner quietly. There was no violence, no threat of violence, no yelling. And I was quite the willful child. So, yes, Sean, manners can be taught to children without abuse, just as they were back then (not everyone was a child abuser, Sean). And that's the way things should be.
NumberSix at March 2, 2010 1:27 PM
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