Standards Are So Haaarrrd!
A student arrived an hour late to a class at NYU and the professor told him to vamoose and come to the next class. The student whined by e-mail to the professor (Scott Galloway, founder of e-tailer redenvelope). The professor wrote a reply, chronicled on deadspin. Here are both. First, the student's:
Sent: Tuesday, February 9, 2010 7:15:11 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Brand Strategy FeedbackProf. Galloway,
I would like to discuss a matter with you that bothered me. Yesterday evening I entered your 6pm Brand Strategy class approximately 1 hour late. As I entered the room, you quickly dismissed me, saying that I would need to leave and come back to the next class. After speaking with several students who are taking your class, they explained that you have a policy stating that students who arrive more than 15 minutes late will not be admitted to class.
As of yesterday evening, I was interested in three different Monday night classes that all occurred simultaneously. In order to decide which class to select, my plan for the evening was to sample all three and see which one I like most. Since I had never taken your class, I was unaware of your class policy. I was disappointed that you dismissed me from class considering (1) there is no way I could have been aware of your policy and (2) considering that it was the first day of evening classes and I arrived 1 hour late (not a few minutes), it was more probable that my tardiness was due to my desire to sample different classes rather than sheer complacency.
I have already registered for another class but I just wanted to be open and provide my opinion on the matter.
Regards,
xxxx--
xxxx
MBA 2010 Candidate
NYU Stern School of Business
xxxx.nyu.edu
xxx-xxx-xxxx
The professor's reply:
From: To: "xxxx" Sent: Tuesday, February 9, 2010 9:34:02 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: Brand Strategy Feedbackxxxx:
Thanks for the feedback. I, too, would like to offer some feedback.
Just so I've got this straight...you started in one class, left 15-20 minutes into it (stood up, walked out mid-lecture), went to another class (walked in 20 minutes late), left that class (again, presumably, in the middle of the lecture), and then came to my class. At that point (walking in an hour late) I asked you to come to the next class which "bothered" you.
Correct?
You state that, having not taken my class, it would be impossible to know our policy of not allowing people to walk in an hour late. Most risk analysis offers that in the face of substantial uncertainty, you opt for the more conservative path or hedge your bet (e.g., do not show up an hour late until you know the professor has an explicit policy for tolerating disrespectful behavior, check with the TA before class, etc.). I hope the lottery winner that is your recently crowned Monday evening Professor is teaching Judgement and Decision Making or Critical Thinking.
In addition, your logic effectively means you cannot be held accountable for any code of conduct before taking a class. For the record, we also have no stated policy against bursting into show tunes in the middle of class, urinating on desks or taking that revolutionary hair removal system for a spin. However, xxxx, there is a baseline level of decorum (i.e., manners) that we expect of grown men and women who the admissions department have deemed tomorrow's business leaders.
xxxx, let me be more serious for a moment. I do not know you, will not know you and have no real affinity or animosity for you. You are an anonymous student who is now regretting the send button on his laptop. It's with this context I hope you register pause...REAL pause xxxx and take to heart what I am about to tell you:
xxxx, get your shit together.
Getting a good job, working long hours, keeping your skills relevant, navigating the politics of an organization, finding a live/work balance...these are all really hard, xxxx. In contrast, respecting institutions, having manners, demonstrating a level of humility...these are all (relatively) easy. Get the easy stuff right xxxx. In and of themselves they will not make you successful. However, not possessing them will hold you back and you will not achieve your potential which, by virtue of you being admitted to Stern, you must have in spades. It's not too late xxxx...
Again, thanks for the feedback.
Professor Galloway
Beauuuutiful smack down.
Steve B at February 26, 2010 2:09 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/02/26/standards_are_s.html#comment-1697963">comment from Steve BI just loved it.
Amy Alkon at February 26, 2010 2:14 AM
How dumb can someone get? If you want to know what the class is like, you ask students who have already taken the class.
It might take some legwork, but at least you don't subject the instructors and the students to blatant displays of rudeness.
Patrick at February 26, 2010 3:20 AM
One of my favorite memories of undergrad years was a Roman History professor (Barry Strauss) pausing an entire class while a student entered late. This had the effect of calling everyone's attention to him. After he was seated, the professor asked "are you done?". That was pretty much the last time anyone was late for the class.
Another memory of the same class: after class ended a few of us approached the professor about various issues. One was asking for permission to turn in a paper late, due to a "really important" fraternity function. The professor said "You have to decide why you came to college - to study history, or to attend your 'really important' frat function...and then do the one that you care about".
Zing!
TJIC at February 26, 2010 4:33 AM
"The professor said "You have to decide why you came to college - to study history, or to attend your 'really important' frat function...and then do the one that you care about"."
Love that. My continuous irritation in college was that Profs insisted on hand-holding students. Sorry, I'm an adult, I didn't need that. I adored the profs (few, sadly) who expected their students to be adults and get their crap done on their own.
And for the love of god, don't grade me on attendance. If I can do the work without listening to the lecture, more power to me. Which is entirely different than showing up late, or leaving early, or reading the paper during class, all of which are unacceptable.
momof4 at February 26, 2010 4:54 AM
God, I wish I could write that letter. Bet that professor has tenure.
NicoleK at February 26, 2010 5:54 AM
Nobody else thinks that professor is a complete dick, amazingly full of himself? What's wrong with sampling courses? I used to do that-you don't want to get stuck with a hard-ass prick like this guy for an entire semester, if you can avoid it!
mrfreddy at February 26, 2010 6:22 AM
momof4: AMEN! I *hated* being graded on attendance for a class that was all lecture. If we were doing "class work" or the detestable "group work" that I loathe, then I can see the point. But if you're just lecturing (and some of them were lecturing straight from the book, make no mistake), and I can keep up with minimal physical presence, points for me.
College was sold to me at high school and adults as an academic utopia. But I found it much like you did: lots of hand-holding. An upgrade of high school. And made into too much of a dance by the administration ("You need a lab science, which is only offered once a year in the spring." "You need nine summer credit hours, so we have excuse to keep the school open in the summer...")
cornerdemon at February 26, 2010 6:26 AM
Glad the professor called this dweeb on his BS.
David M. at February 26, 2010 6:34 AM
I paid a lot of money, per classroom hour, to be there. I made sure my rear was in the seat before class, every class. I graduated Magna Cum Laude. I'm sure it was just coincidence.
At work, I miss a day every decade or so due to illness. I've never been fired or laid off. That is probably coincidence too.
The worst workers I have have the best excuses.
MarkD at February 26, 2010 6:43 AM
This student just demonstrated his arrogance. Some professors are very strict about attendance and lateness while others don't care. To write a professor though and explain what he did wrong was not only arrogant, but crass.
As far as the grading on attendance goes, while some professors are sticklers, there are other rules in place regarding financial aid and state aid. Students need to be in class a certain amount of days for the schools to get paid or at least that's what one professor told me. I do wonder though because there are some professors who never take attendance at all.
Kristen at February 26, 2010 6:43 AM
mrfreddy, way to miss the point. And, unless you are seriously talented or have a niche skill, happy serial unemployment. I suspect you also attended classes presented by aides, maybe at the community college, where, once they have your money, they don't care.
Perhaps I should only sample your post, or anything else you may present because it is likely to be unimportant.
The saddest thing about this is that it reveals basic, seriously fundamental ignorance of the college environment. Clue: faculty notice the students who care about their work, and they reciprocate, with extra time, some privileges and the occasional extra challenge. Surprise! When a professor knows you, they take more personal interest in your success.
Radwaste at February 26, 2010 6:56 AM
MR FREDDY, I'm with you. I mean, it was the FIRST EVENING of classes, right? If I'm paying my hard earned money for a class, I want to make sure it's a good fit for ME. I want to extract every benefit for MYSELF.
Dear RadWASTE, you got a problem with community college?? Clearly you've demonstrated your snobbery and utter lack of connect with "common" folk, or those who can't afford something more costly because, oh, I don't know, WE ALSO WORK FOR A LIVING.
I can appreciate the fact that a professor takes pride in his/her class, but seriously, wouldn't you want someone in your class who would truly benefit from your expertise, if YOU were the professor?
Yes, it is rude to arrive late. But in this particular and extreme case, seems reasonable.
What a bunch of puffed up arrogant assholes you all must be in real life.
Jennie at February 26, 2010 7:18 AM
I kind of agree with Jennie and mrfreddy. The professor came off as a bigger asshole than the student. That doesn't seem like a way to teach someone to get ahead ("hey, be an anal-retentive, self-important prick like me!")
Besides, I hate redenvelope. Way overpriced crap. No wonder.
lovelysoul at February 26, 2010 7:33 AM
Jennie, it is now "reasonable" to disregard part of what YOU said -- by your own reasoning.
Does it make you feel good when people don't pay attention to what you have to say?
Didn't think so. You're just being noisy. If not for that racket, you'd notice that community college entry requirements ARE very low, and that real, working people go to the expensive schools, too.
I'm not arrogant, unless you think that insisting that you think first before posting meets that definition. It appears I would have to hold your hand through the reasoning process that led the professor to implement his policy - but I am sure you don't think so.
Bottom line: when you think you can come and go as you please, you don't think the activity is worth your full attention.
You can go now.
Radwaste at February 26, 2010 7:34 AM
Wow. What kind of pretend thinking is going on to equate an insistence on prompt attendance with the usefulness of a product?
That's the kind of reasoning Sadly, No! would use.
Radwaste at February 26, 2010 7:37 AM
The people blasting the professor are missing the point, this is a grad student, over 20, and should know basic manners by now like "don't trump in and out of a room when someone is speaking"
Better to learn it the hard way now than the much harder way he'll have to learn it later. You seriously want to hand-hold and be nicey nicey to someone that old? It seems obvious that NO ONE has ever told this kid "no" before. He better learn it now when all it means is a missed class, instead of a pink slip.
plutosdad at February 26, 2010 7:41 AM
Well, if he sells that kind of useless crap and thinks it makes him some incredible success story in life...I just don't know about that.
If this is a big lecture hall, where coming or going isn't that disruptive, I don't see where sampling classes on the first evening is so bad. If it's a small class, then it's different.
lovelysoul at February 26, 2010 7:47 AM
That is the best smackdown I've read in a LONG time. Kudos to the prof!
If the kid wanted to know more about the classes he had to choose from, he could have, yanoo, GONE TO THE PROFESSORS AND ASKED THEM. You can get a pretty good read on a person just by talking to them, and I know from experience that if you ask a professor about his/her class, you're going to generally get a straight and honest answer. That would have been much more mature and polite then thinking that the earth revolved around him and all the profs should sit on the edges of their seats hoping to be graced by his continual presence.
Ann at February 26, 2010 7:49 AM
I'm not sure about other schools, but at my school, once the first day of class starts, tuition is still due. It may be pro-rated, but there is a fee due so I cannot imagine paying even a portion of an NYU tuition rate to sample 3 classes. That is definitely not the way to do it. And again, the student was arrogant by attempting to correct the professor. Agree or not about his lateness policy, as professor he makes the rules and has the right to enforce them. The student should have respected that. Instead he chose to send an email to the professor which in reality was his attempt at correcting the professor's manners when in fact, he is the one who needs the lesson.
Kristen at February 26, 2010 7:55 AM
I went to a community college in the 70's, CLEP'd out of almost everything, so had mostly elective courses. Then, went to two private colleges to get my degree. It was not magna cum laude, but summa cum laude, hehh, heh.
This was while helping with my young son, and working full time.
I found the community college teachers MUCH more enthused and motivated than the other colleges. My daughter almost 10 years later noted the same thing.
irlandes at February 26, 2010 8:11 AM
This reminds me of my ex-husband. We went to college together and both took a class that required a lot of computer design work. The projects and their due dates were all spelled out in the syllabus. I worked my ass off and got an A, and he failed because all his projects were either late or not turned in at all. And he blamed the prof for not warning him that his shit wasn't in.
I don't really have a problem with attendance policies. They irritated me when I didn't need to be in class to understand the material, but I just sucked it up. I wasn't there strictly to learn: I could do that with books and the Internet. I was also there to get a degree, and the requirements for that degree were showing up to class.
MonicaP at February 26, 2010 8:12 AM
This guy is "sampling" classes in the last few months of an MBA program? He wasn't sampling classes. He was searching for a crib class or resume fluff. And expecting a professor to accommodate him.
Galloway may indeed be an "arrogant jackass." But he founded a successful business and is imparting his experience and knowledge to graduate-level business students. This is the kind of person that MBA students come to Stern to meet and schmooze.
This arrogant little prick is the kind of student and future executive that give MBAs a bad name. I'll bet he's already picked out the color of his Mercedes and the furniture for his corner office. But he still knows nothing about business.
Conan the Grammarian at February 26, 2010 8:21 AM
And when this dipshit finally gets into business, is he going to show up to the Marketing meeting an hour late with the excuse that he was "sampling" the FInance and Accounting meeting to see which one he liked better?
Or show up at his performance review an hour late and then lecture his boss about manners?
Sorry, that's "self-important jackass."
Conan the Grammarian at February 26, 2010 8:29 AM
But if being a self-important or arrogant jackass is what it takes to succeed, seems like the student has that in spades. They're not so different.
My friend didn't finish high school, but at barely 30, he's already established several internet businesses. He's aggressive and a total asshole, and never plays by the rules, but he's on his way to being very successful - probably the next Joe Francis. So, it depends on what sort of business this kid gets into, but it seems to me that he has the sort of arrogance and aggressiveness that just might carry him quite far.
lovelysoul at February 26, 2010 8:42 AM
Wow. If you felt the need to test drive a class, you could look at old syllabi, ask former students, or look at ratemyprofessor. If you were absolutely desperate to be there in person before deciding, couldn't you just contact the professor beforehand (politely) and request permission to attend part of a class? And why did he ask about the policy after but not before interrupting?
Sadly, this student's attitude is a lot like many of my former classmates...down to the whiny, me-centric language ("I would like to discuss a matter that bothered me" is complete yuppie-speak...me me me, my feelings my feelings mine mine).
I remember in particular a classmate's cellphone going off and her answering it in the middle of class (a very small class and she was in the front row). Needless to say the professor was furious, her excuse was that she had a sick relative in Saudi Arabia and was waiting to hear news about them (not sure why couldn't put your cell on silent and check it during break).
That same classmate complained about another student who brought her tiny, silent Chihuahua to class. The dog would sleep on the student's lap and you would never have known it was there unless you saw her sticking it back into its travel bag when she left.
Choika at February 26, 2010 8:58 AM
From the link: "Galloway then proceeded to send it to his TA and instructed him to XXXX out the student's name and then forward it to the rest of the class. The e-mail now appears to be making the rounds."
"Welcome to internet immorality."
- exactly. I don't agree with his tactics. There have been a lot of fair criticisms of the slackoisie today, but this sort of thing happens, sometimes it's not even bad manners. I attend a lot of professional conferences. Often you get suckered into a bad session. The author is really good at writing titles, sneaks the right buzzwords into the blurb and you're trapped. You usually know it in the first 2 minutes. Then you know your next 45 minutes is fucked, and there were other sessions that actually would ad value to your life. If the room is large enough and you sat on the aisle, you dodge the projector beam and sneak out. You owe it to yourself and your employer to find value. If you can't do it without making a major disruption, you're stuck. There's some subtlety required to sneak in mid lecture too. Know which door is the back, sit in the aisle so you don't have to climb over people.
I am an infrequent presenter as well. When I see someone leave mid session, I understand, I don't get bent over it. And if someone bailed on another session to sneak into mine, that's kind of an honor, even though it is a disruption.
But in the end, I've gotten a lot better at picking 'em over the years. I wish the professor could have simply replied with a private 'get your shit together, it's not too late.'
smurfy at February 26, 2010 10:14 AM
Also, big part of getting better at picking em is to concentrate on the presenter, not the topic so much.
smurfy at February 26, 2010 10:15 AM
I'm reminded of a professor I had when I was pursuing my Bachelor's in Theatre. If I student walked in six minutes, he would interrupt his wearisome, droning lecture to say, in his wearisome droning tone, "Class begins at 9:30, not 9:36."
As it happened, he was a few minutes late one day. You'll never guess how the students greeted him when he finally arrived.
Patrick at February 26, 2010 10:18 AM
*swoon*
I just fell in love with Prof Galloway.
Sabrina at February 26, 2010 10:30 AM
Just to reiterate what I said earlier for the benefit of Freddy, Jeane and lovelysoul. There are many ways to find out what a course is like without getting up in the middle of a lecture of a class that's...what? An hour and fifteen minutes?...and walking out, to go waltz into another class and subject the students and the professor to your laissez-faire attitude toward punctuality. If it's a once a week class, it's probably two and a half hours long.
ratemyprofessor.com will provide you with student feedback from those who have already taken the class.
You could ask students who have already taken this course.
And let's not forget, the student emailed the professor first, not the other way around. The student actually sashayed into class an hour late, had the nerve to be surprised that the professor would not appreciate it, and then reprimanded the professor for dismissing him. And with this reprimand, he has the colossal stupidity to actually tell the professor that he subjected no less than two professors to the same display of rudeness in the same evening. Dissing three professors in one evening? That's ambitious! I don't think even I could do that.
Could he have come up with a worse excuse? For God's sake, make something up! "Sorry, I'm late. My dog drank antifreeze and I had to rush him to the vet," and pray the professor is an animal lover.
But instead, we get, "Sorry, I'm late, but I had two other professors to diss before I dissed you."
And let's not forget, the professor did not deny the student the opportunity to take the class, but said he would have to come to a later class.
Seems like a sensible thing to do, actually. If you're missing an hour's worth of material from an earlier class, you may as well come to a later class and get the whole shebang.
What planet are you living on where this is acceptable behavior? Arriving an hour late to a party is considered gauche, but when you fill out your taxes, under "occupation," you write "student." As such, attending classes is your job. Arriving an hour late to a job is grounds for dismissal.
Patrick at February 26, 2010 10:48 AM
Patrick, that's one of your best comments ever.
I don't think there's anything immoral about the professor making an example of this student (he's not using the student's name, but otherwise sharing the email transaction with his class). It's no different than Amy sharing her worst-offender emails on this blog. And in case there are people who still don't get it, this student was ruder than hell for emailing the professor unless it was to apologize.
KarenW at February 26, 2010 11:20 AM
Some of the comments here (Freddy, lovelysoul, momof4) really piss me off! This student has absolutely no respect for the rules, the professor, the system...not to mention a complete lack of common sense. He got EXACTLY what he deserved from the prof.
These folks defending the student are the exact same people who have no accountability or responsibility in anything else. They are the same people who are always in the profs office arguing grades, wanting makeups, giving excuses and wanting more time for assignments.
Hey momof4, if you were in my class and did not show up for class because "If I can do the work without listening to the lecture, more power to me." I would flunk your ass. If you don't have any respect for the rules, my policies, my lectures, or my time then I don't have any time to look at anything you have done and grade it seriously.
Rules and policies are made for a reason, and if you can't follow them maybe you need to be a liberal politician for a career...
What loon goes to a bunch of classes to try them out without approval? I wonder what kind of reaction I would get if I "tried out" three Women's Studies classes in one evening? If you need info on a prof you ask your friends or ask the prof if you can sit in. You don't just show up.
The student deserved what he got. Maybe that beat some sense into him and he won't pull that stunt again.
Amy, maybe you can put this incident into your next book about rude (and stupid) people.
mike at February 26, 2010 11:43 AM
I sampled classes. (The first 3 days of a semester you could drop/add classes.)
That being said, the classes I sampled I sat through from beginning to end before deciding. Entering or leaving in the middle is simply rude.
More power to this professor.
lsomber at February 26, 2010 11:47 AM
"This student has absolutely no respect for the rules, the professor, the system."
I agree, which is why he'll probably be very successful someday. Academia tries to teach people that following the rules, being polite and on time, generally conforming and subservient to authority will lead to success. This is how academia must function to keep order. But the reality of the business world is that the opposite behaviors usually take one much further. This student may be rude, but he's got "chutzpah". The richest, most successful people I know don't follow rules or conform to authority. It took balls to write that letter. Galloway has the same kind of balls to write back. They are both of the same mold. The student should go far.
lovelysoul at February 26, 2010 12:03 PM
My favorite part is where the student says it shows more character for him to show up an hour late as opposed to fifteen minutes, because that means he had something really important to do. Idiot.
Some of you up there (mfreddy, lovelysoul) seem to be missing the point. The professor makes the rules for his class. Presumably, as he is still employed, the university has approved his rules. Maybe it's because my parents instilled me with the "ignorance of the law is no excuse" ethic, but I follow the professor's rules or I drop the class. If I mess up because I didn't know something, I apologize and do better next time. I, too, spent some time in community college, and had a professor (whom I actually couldn't stand) kick a couple of students out of class for the day for continually arguing with him and disrupting the entire class. I stood up for him when asked about it, and I thought he was a complete jackass, but well within his rights. I had lecture-hall classes at a university where one professor just locked the door about fifteen minutes into class. It was stated clearly in the syllabus that anyone attempting to come in after that would be denied.
If I can do the work without listening to the lecture, more power to me.
Financial aid and scholarships are partly determined by attendance. Now, if you're lucky enough to have been able to pay for the entirety of your college career, then, by all means, don't show up, but don't expect the professor to give you a pass because of that. Any class beyond just reading out of the textbook does actually require you to have been there to fully understand the material. In my psychology and sociology classes, we were graded, not exactly on attendance, but participation in class discussion. Contributing to class is as important as just sitting there taking notes and regurgitating the textbook back onto the page.
Hide your babies and your beadwork if there's going to be a "next Joe Francis."
NumberSix at February 26, 2010 12:10 PM
Keep in mind, we're not talking about a wet-behind-the-ears or overly cocky undergrad.
This student already has a Bachelor's degree. He's in the final months of an MBA program. That's a Master's degree level program.
In order to get into most Master of Business Administration programs (including Stern's), you must have at least 1-2 year's work experience after getting your Bachelor's.
Assuming he graduated at 21, he's probably at least 24-25 years old.
It's time for him to grow up.
Conan the Grammarian at February 26, 2010 12:12 PM
The richest, most successful people I know don't follow rules or conform to authority.
Flouting authority for the sake of it does not make you successful, it makes you a whiny, entitled brat like this kid. And your view of academia is skewed. The professors who produce the best students are the ones who challenge and like to be challenged. Not challenged in a "you're the authority figure and I must bring you down way," but in a way that shows that the student understands the material and has the skills to debate on it. I even had a statistics class where we debated stuff. And as far as not following the rules, you have to know the rules before you break them. I agree that the student had chutzpah by writing the letter. I also think the professor was right in writing him back as he did, even using business terms to explain it to him. And bonus points to him for telling the kid that respect, manners, and humility are important in business.
NumberSix at February 26, 2010 12:23 PM
Mike: "Hey momof4, if you were in my class and did not show up for class because "If I can do the work without listening to the lecture, more power to me." I would flunk your ass."
NumberSix: "If I can do the work without listening to the lecture, more power to me."
Financial aid and scholarships are partly determined by attendance. Now, if you're lucky enough to have been able to pay for the entirety of your college career, then, by all means, don't show up, but don't expect the professor to give you a pass because of that. Any class beyond just reading out of the textbook does actually require you to have been there to fully understand the material. In my psychology and sociology classes, we were graded, not exactly on attendance, but participation in class discussion."
Well, I think what momof4 was saying wasn't that she flaunted the attendance policies, but rather that she disagreed with having them. If you have the attendance policy in place, of course it's a no-brainer to follow them. She's not saying that she didn't follow them - just that she didn't see the point in having them. I happen to agree for the most part.
And if I had to guess, she was talking about lecture hall classes, not small classes. That's where I'm basing my hatred of attendance policies from, anyway. Where you've got 300+ students in the room, there's no discussion, and the teacher is brainlessly pounding through a PowerPoint presentation that you could've put together yourself from the textbook.
I'll agree that class discussion is way, way important for smaller classes. Gender Studies (which disillusioned me about feminism, thankfully) was one of the best classes I took because of the discussions in there. Same thing for 90% of my upper-level classes (except that one EuroLit guy, who seemed to think his class was there to exist solely to expound upon his politics). And for those classes, showing up is absolutely necessary. And usually fun, too.
But for a lecture hall of hundreds of students that's taught primarily by a PowerPoint made from the text, I don't feel like I should have to show up for that. If you're a bad lecturer who puts my ass to sleep and I can do the work at home, I'd rather do that.
I didn't know about the financial aid thing - I can see that argument, though.
cornerdemon at February 26, 2010 12:56 PM
But for a lecture hall of hundreds of students that's taught primarily by a PowerPoint made from the text, I don't feel like I should have to show up for that. If you're a bad lecturer who puts my ass to sleep and I can do the work at home, I'd rather do that.
Your prerogative. I am actually not crazy about grading on number of classes attended (rather than class participation, which, as you mention, is really only done in the smaller classes), but I respect the professors' right to do so. The few large classes I had that did grade on attendance had sign-in sheets at the front and you were allowed to miss so many classes before it adversely affected your grade. I believe that showing up for class even though it's boring and you might have better things to do shows maturity, but it took me a while to get to that point in college, and it's one of the reasons I have not yet gotten my degree. I had a geography prof at a community college that broke it down to me like this: You are paying for the privilege of attending this class. You are paying x dollars per class. I, personally want to get my money's worth out of all of it, and it's fine if you decide your time is better spent elsewhere. But don't blame the professor for it.
NumberSix at February 26, 2010 1:59 PM
I am also in an evening graduate program. If you have a question about the classes, it is actually recommended by the program to sample a class. Classes are almost 3 hours long with usually a break around 2 hours. Furthermore, it is recognized that people have jobs and their can be traffic so people coming in late occasionally is expected.
I just looked at the website suggested earlier and there was helpful info on only one of the profs I have had. Most classes are only offered every other year, and are often times taught by different profs. Thus, often times there are no students in the program who have taken the class from the prof. In one of the classes I am in now I did manage to find another student who had taken it before and even got the syllbus -- the prof is doing the class totally different (60% of the grade is a group project which was not there last time at all). Basically, there is not good way to find about what a class will be like.
The only prof who has graded on attendance was the one that did nothing but read the slides which came with the book (slides are available on the book publisher's website).
The Former Banker at February 26, 2010 4:23 PM
I was just talking with a classmate and was reminded of this event earlier this week. The prof handed back our reports. He was ranting about how poor the grammar and spelling was in the reports. When he was a student this would have been completely unacceptable. One hand goes up. The prof called on the student. Student askes, "Excuse me sure, on the slide there - third column over - is the second word supposed to be 'results'? It says r e u s l t s." Prof: "Where?...oh...well um...this is not be graded." (he had a very pissed look.)
The Former Banker at February 26, 2010 4:53 PM
It is fine if the program recommends sampling classes. Do they actually mean to go to one class, leave fifteen minutes in, go the the second (twenty minutes late), leave after fifteen minutes, and then show up an hour late for the third? Even if sampling is recommended, it is the professor's prerogative to set his own attendance rules. And though "coming in late occasionally" is expected, this guy was not late because of his job. The professor in question is not a complete ass who calls everyone out on being one minute late, he told the guy he was welcome to come back to a later class (after he was an HOUR late). He did not write the letter unprompted, either. The professor's letter was a response to the letter of a student he didn't even know. He explained his position to the student.
And I must say, calling the professor out on a typo in the middle of class is quite the douchey thing to do, even if the he was going off about spelling and grammar. Please see my earlier post about maturity. Mature students do not do things like that in front of the whole class.
NumberSix at February 26, 2010 5:09 PM
It is my experience that a lot of academics tend to have inflated egos and are often very thin-skinned and easily offended. This Professor sounds like a typical pompous git.
The truth is that most of these people wouldn't last five minutes if they were taken out of their comfortable tenured institutions and forced to earn a living in the real world. I recall years ago talking to a used car salesman about a customer of his who was a university professor. Apparently he wasn't even capable of filling out an insurance form and needed to be guided through absolutely everything.
While I agree that it is rude to enter or leave a lecture early if it is likely to cause significant disturbance, I don't think it is a big deal if someone slips in or out the back surreptitiously.
Nick S at February 26, 2010 5:25 PM
If two classes are held at the same time, the only way to sample them both (you cannot add a class after the second class and dropping is 1/2 of tuition) would be to leave one in the middle and enter the other late. There are at most two classes at the same time. So yes, that is suggested by the program.
" it is the professor's prerogative to set his own attendance rules" Well, actually, it would appear in my program that it would violate department policy based on the orientation slides (links to the actual policies are broken).
The Former Banker at February 26, 2010 5:54 PM
"Mature students do not do things like that in front of the whole class."
No, they don't. But entitled ones with no respect for authority do.
mike at February 26, 2010 6:46 PM
"The richest, most successful people I know don't follow rules or conform to authority."
I had no idea you were such an outlaw, associating with criminals. Please go look up a fallacy tutorial, because you're arguing one.
As George Carlin said (roughly), "Kids are like everyone else - a few winners, and a whole lot of losers."
Radwaste at February 26, 2010 8:12 PM
This Professor sounds like a typical pompous git.
If you'll read the letter again, you'll find that the professor had no idea who the student was until he wrote to him. The professor had dismissed him with a simple "Come to the next class" and moved on with his life until the student wrote his appeal. Not until then did the professor have to deal with the student in a more direct way.
Nick, I'm sorry you seem to have such a disdain for academics. The ones I have dealt with have been, for the most part, lovely, capable people. Perhaps they sense your innate dislike for them?
The Former Banker: Seriously? The administration at your school is fine with anyone shopping around for classes to leave early and come in an hour late? At the expense of the other students in the class?
And, yes, it is this professor's prerogative. He is still employed and running his classes in this way, so it would seem that his administration allows him to do so, unlike your school. Were I a student who showed up to an evening class (so no crying that nothing gets done on the first day, anyway, because these classes tend to be two to three hours long, right?), I would be pissed to be disturbed by someone coming in an hour into class. Maybe he should have waited until the break to come in. That would have been less disruptive for everyone else. And I don't care how large the room is or how many people are in it, it does disturb others to open a door, find a seat, and get out your notebook/laptop. Especially those sitting near him.
NumberSix at February 26, 2010 8:15 PM
And, Radwaste: you rock.
NumberSix at February 26, 2010 8:16 PM
"If I can do the work without listening to the lecture, more power to me."
This works extremely well for the online course model, becoming very popular with schools as they realize there are autodidactic students out there who can learn more on their own with an "active knowledge seeking personality" than those who need to be spoon-fed to regurgitate. The courses are structured and taught differently, and are actually more difficult. They're also becoming popular with employers who recognize the value of such a student personality, especially when they're held to the same testing standards and certifications as traditional students (ATI testing, state boards, etc.)
Juliana at February 26, 2010 8:44 PM
mrfreddy has a point. Why take a class given by someone with standards? Show up when it starts? Hell no!
He might also expect his students to...work. Or worse...turn off their fucking cell phones.
The "problem" freddy, is that when you get up in the middle of a lecture, you are insulting the speaker.
Do you walk away from your friends in midsentence? Of course not. Good way to have no friends. Would you walk away from your employer, when he was in midsentence. Only on the last day he was your employer, and then only if you didn't want a recommendation. Why the devil would it be acceptable to show up late for an official function, be it class, a meeting, a wedding...or leave right in the middle of it?
If he wanted to sample courses, he could have...oh I don't know, ASKED THE PROFESSORS?
Jennie...what about this case seems "extreme"???
Extreme is...my pants caught fire.
Extreme might be...I also shit myself when my pants caught on fire.
Extreme might be, I fell and twisted my ankle and I think I broke some toes...but I so much cared to be here that I HOPPED to class.
If I were that professor, I'd excuse someone being late for having to replace the pants and the underwear, and I'd pay special attention to the student that hops to class rather than miss it.
But wanting to "sample classes" is NOT extreme. He could have very easily asked the student body who they recommend, he could have asked the professors about their methods of teaching. He COULD have just gone to one of the 3 on 3 seperate occasions. Instead he walked into one class, and walked out, walked into another class, and walked out, and tried to walk into the final class...and expected to be accomodated?
The words HELL and NO cannot be combined in enough languages to express the NOness of that answer.
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And lovelysoul, those rich successful people...I doubt they got their successful start by being late to their meeting with venture capitalists because...oh I was going to see 2 others first.
Or to the bank to borrow money for their first business saying...oh yeah there were 2 others at the same time.
Or to their big job interview saying, um, yeah there were two other interviews to walk out of first.
Sorry but the privately rich and successful don't get there by being inconsiderate assholes to the people they need things from.
They might become assholes later, when they're in charge, but that is a whole seperate issue, regarding how to behave with people you do not need.
-------------------
And by the way, if you can pass the class without attending, save yourself the money and the professor the time in grading your work, and just CLEP the damn thing.
Robert at February 26, 2010 10:38 PM
The words HELL and NO cannot be combined in enough languages to express the NOness of that answer.
Robert, I could have quoted your entire post, but I'll let the above statement (which I may steal in the near future) stand by itself.
Bravo.
NumberSix at February 26, 2010 11:56 PM
"I had no idea you were such an outlaw, associating with criminals."
No, mostly, I associate with entrepeneurs. I used to live in a super private community with some of the richest people in the world. Believe me, they make their own rules, and many of them were not little robotoc stepford-like students - if they went or finished school at all. Being compliant and bending to authority gets you only so far in life - maybe to top management. The individuals who OWN the companies are a different breed.
You all can argue how awful this student is - and from a conformist's point of view, or a parent's point of view, or a tenured professor's point of view - you're right. But, from a different angle, he's got the right stuff to really succeed in the business world.
lovelysoul at February 27, 2010 5:44 AM
I also think The Former Banker explained that this was probably allowed and possibly even encouraged. Not for the whole semester, which of course, no professor should expect, but for the first few DAYS of course selection, it seems like a good way for students to find a class that really fits them. It seems like any professor would want students in his/her class that responds well to his/her teaching style because it will make the course more productive overall. After all, the students are paying for the classes. The professor essentially works for them.
lovelysoul at February 27, 2010 5:55 AM
I can't believe anyone can read that student's email and feel any sympathy for him. He is so freaking arrogant that I can't believe this professor even bothered to write such a well-written, clever response full of REALLY GOOD advice.
Lovelysoul, clearly it was not allowed or encouraged to sample classes (in this manner), or else the whole deal wouldn't have happened. And to the academic-bashers - this professor is not a career professor. He teaches at the business school because of his successful business background. So Nick, I'm pretty sure he can survive professionally without tenure.
Sam at February 27, 2010 8:21 AM
At a freshman level, it might be encouraged. Perhaps even at a sophomore level. But this guy is four years beyond that.
He's a graduate student!
He's in the last semester of an MBA program. He's already been in the program for a year and a half. You don't "sample" classes at that point. You fight to get into the classes that will teach you what you need to know for the career path you've mapped out for yourself. If you need a brand strategy class, you take one. If you need a derivatives class, you take one.
And whoever opined that this student would go far because he is arrogant, aggressive, and unwilling to play by the rules is wrong. As Robert pointed out, successful entrepreneurs don't show up an hour late to meet with venture capitalists, suppliers, or partners because they're busy meeting with someone else.
Successful business people know which rules to break and which ones to keep. They know when and with whom to be arrogant and when and with whom to be humble.
Scott Galloway didn't build redenvelope.com by playing by the rules or by not being arrogant. But he didn't do it by insulting his suppliers, business partners, or his venture capitalists either.
Dave Thomas didn't build Wendy's with an MBA or with playing by the rules. But you get your hamburger when you order it, not an hour later because the burger maker was "sampling" the fries.
Galloway runs a brand strategy consulting company, is on the boards of several companies, and serves on a council at the World Economic Forum. Sounds like a guy a budding MBA should try to get to know rather than a guy to whom he should send an e-mail rebuke. What was he expecting? A heartfelt apology and groveling?
He should have sent an e-mail apologizing for interrupting the class, explaining that he was "sampling" classes because he is still undecided about a career path, and asking if Galloway had any advice for him.
Conan the Grammarian at February 27, 2010 11:16 AM
"The "problem" freddy, is that when you get up in the middle of a lecture, you are insulting the speaker."
gee, what a thin skinned speaker we must have here. More touchy than John McEnroe in a tie-breaker at the US Open.
Puh leeze.
The guy is a dick.
mrfreddy at March 2, 2010 5:33 AM
Frankly, neither of these guys come off well in this story. A self-important MBA student versus a self-impressed academic? It's sort of like Nazi Germany fighting Stalinist Russia. You don't root for either side.
kevin_m at March 2, 2010 6:40 AM
gee, what a thin skinned speaker we must have here
The act is insulting no matter how the speaker reacts or feels about it. Getting up in the middle of a lecture (a lecture by someone you are paying to teach you) shows that you think you have better, more important things to do than listen. Now, if you or someone you love is bleeding from the head, you do actually have something more important to do. The act is still rude, but excusable under the circumstances, especially with an apology and a quick "I'll be back as soon as the bleeding stops."
kevin_m, I'm going to repeat something I posted earlier. The professor in question did not care one way or the other about the student until he wrote the letter, and he actually didn't really care after the letter. The professor had told him simply to come back to the later class and went on with his life. The student wrote the letter explaining his position and the fact he thought he was treated unfairly. Only then did the professor start talking about decorum in the classroom. So, upon receiving the letter from the self-important MBA student, what should the professor have done, in your opinion?
NumberSix at March 2, 2010 1:40 PM
He should have replied exactly as he did. For me, he started to cross the line when he copied the exchange to other people (even though he blanked out the names.)
I also skimmed through a profile I found of Galloway through Google. "Get Your Shit Together" apparently is his favorite motto, flung at underlings and students who have too much to lose to take him on directly. He struck me - however brilliant at business he is - as one of those tiresome, macho tough guys who makes life tiresome for all those around him he doesn't regard as macho and tough enough.
So, yeah, love the action, dislike the, uh... actioner?
kevin_m at March 2, 2010 2:48 PM
The student was off in sending his complaint.
The professor was within his rights to reply and did so in a way that shows he has probably dealt with the problem ad nauseum.
The professor was out of line in sending the email to the TA and sending it around to the class, and therefore making it public. The student complained in private, and I'm sure that more than one person could actually identify the complainant in question. If the professor was as well-mannered as Amy would like the whole world to be, he would not have vented his spleen in this public way.
Kate at March 3, 2010 1:52 PM
It is my experience that a lot of academics tend to have inflated egos and are often very thin-skinned and easily offended. This Professor sounds like a typical pompous git.
Just wait until xxxx joins his first big firm. His bosses will make this professor seem like Mother Teresa. Better that he gets a little dose of reality in school so that he won't turn tail and run when he gets mowed down by his seriously ego tripping corporate slave drivers. They'll play with his mind for fun, not because they are thin-skinned.
AllenS at March 4, 2010 12:15 PM
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