There was a girl I brought back to my flat while living overseas, and while there I got a call for work and had to leave suddenly for a bit, told her to relax and enjoy, put on a movie or something, I'd be back in an hour.

I was, and when I came back, the first thing she wanted to do was argue.

Did she want to argue over my sudden departure? No. That I could have understood, orders or no orders, being upset would have been understandable on her part.

No, what upset her was that she snooped through my computer and found some of my porn.

She told me if I wanted to "get with her" I couldn't look at it anymore. Along with some other bile thrown in.

My answer:
A. Porn was here before you, and it'll be here after you.
B. I wouldn't waste my time on a pretentious snoop.
And C. You're a bitch, get out of my home.

Some might say that the fact that he was cheating justified her snooping, but I don't buy it. She could have spoken to him about it, and if she didn't like the answers she was getting, she should have shoved off.

There are other signs of cheating. If you don't take measures to find out, you will simply not know, because it will be concealed from you.

Sometimes insecurity causes false positives that lead you to think something is going on. If you have self-esteem, they are less likely to be false.

But once trust is broken, it is usually not repairable. There are consequences if you are wrong. They are less severe than actual cheating. A breakup because you only thought you were cheated will not leave you with an STD.

I don't think you can support the idea that Elin should not have looked at Tiger's phone traffic, and simply resigned herself to be the clueless one of a dozen or so. I'm amazed she hasn't imploded.

You will have to find another way than snooping. You have no right to pry into another adult's belongings.

In the first reply, in the incident he described, Robert acted quite appropriately. He did not give her permission to use his computer, much less go through his files.

Actually, he dodged quite the bullet with that one. Not only did she help herself to his computer without permission, but she was so convinced she had the right to do that, that she actually issued ultimatums based on what she found.

And, no, I don't believe Elin had any right to search Tiger's cell phone.

Dan Savage has a funny take on snooping. Basically his take is, "Of course people snoop, they are curious". I am paraphrasing. I don't read my husband's emails, but that is because I don't think there is anything of interest to me. Its boring work stuff. I suppose if I thought he was a cheater, but he isn't, so there is no reason to.

With modern browsers, when using someone else's computer you can't NOT snoop - since the visited sites will show up using autocomplete.

Instead of snoopping, how about actually getting to know your partner. Know the kind of person he/she is. You are either connected or you aren't. If you feel something's wrong, you're probably right, but snooping is not the answer. I never needed visual proof to know a relationship went bad. My gut always told me whether or not to leave and the funny thing is the times I ignored my gut were the times I made my hugest mistakes!

Gregg installs software and does all sorts of stuff on my computer, and I know he'd never start going through anything on it. It's creepy and unethical, and he's neither of those things.

Because you can do something doesn't mean you should vis a vis browser history. And I'm suspecting that she wasn't using his computer but snooping on it.

So, people think Elin should have known, but THIS is what you have to do to know, and you condemn women when they do it.

And it is really easy to snoop without meaning to on computers. My friend found out her BF was going to propose by Kay's jewelry coming up on autofill while she was typing in something else with a k.

And lastly, he's not a kind, caring type if he's hooking up with other chics when out of town. Now that she has this info, she needs to leave.

And yes, pretty much everyone snoops on occasion. It's in our nature, just like being rude.

My gut always told me whether or not to leave and the funny thing is the times I ignored my gut were the times I made my hugest mistakes!

Amen to that, Kristen! Every time, every time I ignored what my gut was telling me, I regretted it! Every Time! I think we ignore our guts because we can't admit when someone we "love" isn't right for us, because we want so much to believe in "love". Hearts will lie. Guts will always tell the truth.

Amy, beloved and I have pretty much the same deal, but when he has to fuss with my computers I like to try to learn what he is doing and he is always glad to (attempt) to teach. Like you and Gregg, we never snoop in each other's computers even though they are open enough if we were so inclined. I think we have seen each other log in enough to know the passwords to everything over the past two years.

Neither of us has an issue with porn or chat either, but anything beyond that is "cheating" at least in our relationship. And I don't mean taking a peek at someone attractive walking by while not being obvious either. We both mean phone calls, dates, or contact. We used to trade our erotica with each other too, but that has fallen by the wayside.

Oh, Amy, I can report that he does notice as I get more fit! He might not say so, but I can tell by his actions that he notices it somewhere deep down. As legs got more tone, they got more attention, now waist and butt are getting more visits than they used to :) Probably a good dose of my feeling better about my body too.

Robert, Imagine trying to dictate a person's future life just because you are *about* to have sex with them. She has to get pregnant and then get court orders first. Doesn't she know the drill? =D

Snooping is a tough one. If employed regularly as a means of relationship management, it is restraining order stuff.

But just when you are about to deploy a zero tolerance attitude about snooping, you encounter some guy or gal with a story that just floors you, and you say, "My god, thank goodness you looked at those emails!" (I know of situations where "loving" spouses were plotting everything from murder to theft of marital assets prior to a surprise divorce. Snooping spouse was usually totally clueless something was wrong prior to snoops.)

As a result, my view is very limited snooping is permitted when there are enough binding ties (kids, mortgage, etc.) to make simply "shoving off" not a realistic option or too costly if only mere uneasiness is at work. But a sincere attempt at discussion should be made, and the snooping person must feel strongly--and uniquely--that something is up, because they never felt anxiety in this way in this relationship before.

The backdrop is that when someone in a long-term, monogamous relationship puts third-party naked-fun-time on their lifestyle menu, they typically do it for themselves only, and put the other partner's health and well-being at risk without giving notice. And when asked, those sort will deny, deny, deny--that is just how we are wired. So there is little point in asking. Most people double-down on their lies when confronted, not fess up to them, unless you have video.

So, in sum, my view is a non-neurotic person with grounds for suspicion and enough ties that bind two people (kids, financial fall-out) can snoop for a short time in limited way to make sure things are as they should be. Then they need to stop snooping and make it up to the person, assuming nothing major is found. (Oh, and a previously unknown porn stash or an opposite-sex buddy who is clearly infatuated but not getting "the goods" is not enough to qualify as major.)

If something major is found, however, well, the snooping is now perfectly cleansed as though absolved by a priest, and any attempt by the guilty party to exclaim "How could you violate my privacy!?" should be dismissively laughed at. People plotting against an clueless spouse should generally eschew self-righteous indignation; it just rings hollow.

While she may have found 'proof' that he looks at porn, from the couple of exerpts provided we dont see any proof that he is cheating

Amy,

LOL, I need to try that one on beloved and see if he thinks it's funny too. I have an iPhone now.

When I was visiting John (writer friend who comments here too) a few weeks ago he let me install the Facebook app on his new iPhone (hadn't gotten mine yet) and left the notification thingie on when I went back to NJ.

He likes to brag that he has never been on 'Facespace' or 'Myface' and then I get this call with him growling (friendly) that an alert came up on his phone in "mid-brag" about not using Facebook, LOL. Next complaint was that he could not just add friends to my friends list to harass me back with.

Eventually he finally figured out how to shut off the alerts (Settings| Facebook) but now he helps approve friend requests while I am at work.

>>the snooping person must feel strongly--and uniquely--that something is up, because they never felt anxiety in this way in this relationship before.

I have never quite totally agreed with Amy on this topic, but wasn't sure what I did think, since her view is not totally without merit.

I would say Spartee's view suits me very much. When you KNOW something is wrong, yes, it is time to snoop. Your other choice is to walk without investigating, and that should not be done lightly. So, the snooping is actually giving the person the benefit of the doubt. There might be a physical problem affecting the behavior, or some other valid explanation.

Although to repeat my tale, early in our marriage, I realized something was wrong. We still did the "marital relations" thing, but it's like she wasn't there. Hard to explain, but it has been written YOU KNOW. Yes, I clearly and uniquely felt something was up.

So, I sort of had an idea she was doing what she shouldn't be. But, I had a decision to make involving the kids, so I asked no questions and did no snooping. It was her sin, not mine. The kids were more important than my male ego.

Some years later, I worked with the man it would have been. He often, in front of other people, would run his mouth about my poor; poor; poor wife and how badly she was treated.

Like many women, she made her own problems, with incessant anger over trivia, and constant criticism.

I finally told him one day in a loud clear voice, "YOU'VE BEEN DIVORCED HOW MANY TIMES AND YOU STILL BELIEVE EVERYTHING A WOMAN TELLS YOU?" He got all red and never said another word about it.

I suspect he had his fun with her, and when he got bored, gave her a nice speech about how her kids and marriage were more important, thus camouflaging the fact she was being dumped.

Did this probable event affect our marriage? Yes and no. Her anger still dominates it, but that just means I tune her out, anyway, when she is angry. Which is not good.

I am faithful because it's good for me to be faithful. She certainly does not deserve it, even without past misconduct. Some things you do because it's right to do them, not because you feel your spouse deserves you to do right.

Irlandes, people who use anger that often do so as a means of social control. Sounds like your wife may use temper tantrums as a form of control and social dominance.

More generally speaking, everyone can control their anger--anger management classes are not necessary for anybody.

Anyone not believe me that anger can be controlled? Great, let's run an experiment. I will stand ten yards from you, holding a .357 mag pointed at your chest. I will then do everything you claim makes you so mad you cannot control yourself. My guess is you will not lose your temper at me.

The .357 really represents a bosses' ability to fire you, a cop's ability to haul you to jail, or some other means of society delivering an unpleasant outcome in response to your "out of control" temper tantrum. A person will control their temper when they dislike the expected outcome--getting fired, hauled to jail--more than they enjoy bullying someone with a temper tantrum.

The person displaying anger is really just brandishing a an emotional weapon in the form of social aggression.

When faced with people using temper to control you, the best response, I find, is to speak ever more quietly. You say (1) that you do not like them shouting at you and would prefer they stop doing that and then (2) whatever point you are trying to get across, politely though. Keep doing that, in that order.

It works. Ever try and yell as someone who not only won't yell back, but gets ever quieter and more polite (but no less firm) as the conversation goes on? (I have, when young. I felt like a fool after the third unreturned shout. Lesson learned.) Either the person calms down or swings at you.

Wow these stories are bad. I never understood why some women get all angry about porn, even not wives and girlfriends just in general. Women look at and objectify men all the time, so what? As long as we all treat other people with respect it doesn't matter what we fantasize about.

I must be lucky, my girlfriend found some porn on my computer and didn't care, she doesn't like it or look at it, but she doesn't get mad that I had some. I guess since she knows I like her both for her personality and for more superficial reasons :)

she wasn't snooping though, she just uses my computer for email and I had the porn link under my "fitness" category of links which she was reading through :) I guess that's like Chris Rock's old joke: where do our girlfriends find our porn? Not in our secret hiding spot, they find it in the VCR.

Geez, I'd probably worry more about my husband if he didn't look at porn. Lord knows I've looked at my share.

I have a confession to make: I snooped. Hear me out.

I did my fiance's taxes for him and something went wrong because his money never came in. So, I called him at work and said: "Look, I need to see if TurboTax sent you and email or something because it's telling me your SSN# is invalid. Can I have you email password?" I felt bad even asking, but I didn't really have another option. I signed in and found his sign in information for Turbo Tax right away...but I could NOT resist scrolling through his inbox. I do't know what came over me. I know he isn't cheating on me. KNOW IT. But for some reason, I just had to peek. I didn't read every email, but I did scoll through looking for his ex's name. Again, I know he's not cheating on me, but she is a trouble maker and I'm not sure he wouldn't tell me if she was harrassing him again because he knows I already want to kill the b*tch. Of course, there was nothing from her....really all I saw was spam. Still, I feel terrible I even looked. I knew better. I honestly asked for the password for innocent (and adult) reasons, but as soon as I was in there I turned into a nosey teenager! Do I need to tell him? I highly doubt he would even care. He'd probably just laugh at me. Maybe I should have written Amy an email on this!!

On a related note: I have access to his computer and have never checked his browser history. I couldn't care less about him watching porn. The only reason I'd even want to see what he's watching would be to suprise him with some new moves or find out about any fantasies he may want to act out. He's not much of a communicator in that area.

"Geez, I'd probably worry more about my husband if he didn't look at porn. Lord knows I've looked at my share."

Pricklypear, I'm with you. I know this sounds stupid, but I really don't thing my fiance looks at porn...just sports stuff. It does worry me a little, but not enough to go snooping through his browser history to try to find some. What guy doesn't like porn? I'm actually dissappointed there's no porn in the house.

The thing I worry about is that a lot of women have no idea how to pick their battles or get over their princess fantasy of the knight in shining armor. To many of these women the porn is as big or a bigger problem than actual cheating and they don't realize that most healty men look at porn. In my experience the men that don't look at porn usually have an extremely low sex drive. If you are looking for a eunich, that is fine but I prefer a real man. Isabel

"A person will control their temper when they dislike the expected outcome--getting fired, hauled to jail--more than they enjoy bullying someone with a temper tantrum." That's the line between crazy and angry people. Crazy people will scream at cops, bosses, etc.

"My guess is you will not lose your temper at me." Just because you don't fly off the handle at some one on the spot when you are at a disadvantage doesn't mean shit about how controlled your anger is. Seeking revenge is just as much an anger issue as exploding, and usually far more destructive to all those involved. Hiding a gram of coke in the cops car, making sure the bosses wife finds out about Cindy in finance, etc. As far as pointing the gun at me and trying to piss me off. That presents all sorts of fun options. Making sure the local gang bangers know you have guns and where you hide them. Calling the cops and making sure your right to own gets pulled. Waiting till you turn around then putting one jacketed hollow point right between the sacral spine and lumbar spine at a slight downward angle. The sign of poor anger control is the overwhelming inability to let anything go.

Talking in a quite measured tone works great. Annoying as hell when you are not actually trying to do it. Having lost my voice at work a few months ago every one automatically whispered to me for 3 days. I think it is just an automatic thing we as humans do.

I try very, very hard not to snoop. My wife leaves her e-mail open on the computer often and every so often I have to fight the urge really hard to just browse it. So I know how hard it is not to snoop. So far I have avoided the temptation, not sure I'll be able to do it forever.

Projection is a one of those weird things... every time my ex- accused me of anything I wasn't doing... I'd start looking for signs she was doing that, and bingo! Though I dunno that she ever cheated, I figured maybe she was trying to, but by then I was already gone.

D'ya think if someone was ACTUALLY cheating, they would leave the info lying around? Only those who derive some kind of excitement from being transgressive, I suppose. In some way, they might want to get caught? You can set text messages to delete, you can set your history to 0, you can turn off auto complete, or have all data deleted after every session... it isn't hard.

Personally, I think computers are just another area to have angst about. If you are terribly insecure anyway, it's just convenient. If a person goes out of town and you call them 3 times a day every day to find out what they are doing, who is ACTUALLY having a problem? A little insecurity makes you try, a lot of insecurity? It drive everyone crazy.

momof4: And yes, pretty much everyone snoops on occasion. It's in our nature, just like being rude.

If you don't have an ethical dilemma with snooping on people, that's your affair, but please don't pretend everyone does it to justify your own stance.

I don't believe in snooping. When I was living with roommates, if I ever came across something that they inadvertantly left around that wasn't mine, I left it alone.

momof4: So, people think Elin should have known, but THIS is what you have to do to know, and you condemn women when they do it.

Who said anything about condemning women? I would condemn anyone for snooping. What we have here is what they call a Freudian slip. I suspect what you mean is that women have the right to snoop on their men, but not the other way around...isn't that right, momof4?

Oops...

Nah, patrick, I'm sure my DH has snooped on me. Doesn't make me happy, but it's human nature. I said women because we were talking about a woman (women, I guess, since I brought up Elin too).

Nice try though Princess. Oh, and I wasn't justifying, anymore than I would justify yelling at a tech support person because I was having a bad day. Both are wrong. And both happen on occasion. Except, of course, for you, because as we all know you are perfect in every way, and know all there is to know about everything.

SwissArmyD, sometimes cheaters aren't the brightest bulbs on the Christmas tree. Yeah, there are ways to cover your tracks, but not everyone knows them. Plus, if I were snooping and looking through my BF's phone, I would find it suspicious if his inbox and outbox were always empty (same goes for browser history). Why delete all that stuff if you have nothing to hide?

I'm not advocating snooping, but I'm not sure if I could resist if I had good reason to believe my spouse was cheating. This is my issue, though. I had a really rough relationship with a guys who talk a starving dog off a meat wagon. If I could have just found some solid proof that he was cheating, I would have left him a lot sooner. He always managed to explain away all the "signs". All I had to go on was rumors and my gut. It should have been enough, but love makes people crazy. Again, I'm NOT saying it would have been right if I had snooped through his phone (even though he was constantly going through mine...and finding nothing), but it a twisted way, it would have made me feel better to know one way or the other. Of course, I was dating this guy from 17-21. I was still kid. There's no reason for a rational adult to play those kinds of games.

Furthermore, if you're in a relationship where both parties are snooping on each other...well, that's just not healthy for either one. People deserve a certain level of privacy, even in a committed relationship. Why would you commit yourself to someone you don't trust?

I snooped on my ex. Whether it was "good" or not, I was pretty sure he was cheating by the time I resorted to it, and I was looking for proof, not making a hobby of it. Marriages aren't like courtship relationships. Ending them is an enormous legal undertaking, and courts generally want to know why. "I sorta had a feeling, and he was lookin' shifty" doesn't usually fly.

Ultimately, snooping was the best thing I ever did. It prevented me from sinking even more years into a pointless relationship. In the end, it was obvious he wanted out and was just too much of a wuss to pull the trigger himself, so I did us both a big favor.

As for porn, well, if it's a problem for her, it's a problem for her, and telling her it shouldn't be a problem for her probably isn't helpful.

I've never snooped on my fiance. Never had a reason to.

Regular poster here, but thought I'd throw this out anon so as to not vilify anyone (I know Amy can figure out who I am, but please don't tell?).

My guy and I were waiting for a movie to start. He pulled out his phone and started scrolling through pics of our new kitten. He let me hold it because it's one of those fancy phones and I liked being able to "pinch" the pictures to adjust the size, etc. So anyway, we get to the end of pet pics. I keep scrolling through and he suddenly got really agitated and tried to grab the phone away. Very weird, sudden change. Naturally I asked him what the heck was going on...there were just before and after pictures of some home improvements...and some of me on the couch...I kept scrolling and he looks away...and well now....

There was a close up pic of some girl, doing a very obvious come-hither stare. "Who's that?" I ask. An ex-gf. I go to the next one. It's the same chick, in a thong (that's it) on a bed on all fours with her ass taking center stage, and she's got her head turned so she's looking that the camera. He said she sent those pictures a long time ago (we've been together 5 years and we've never had trust issues - til that) when he had an old phone and just transferred his complete set of pictures from one phone to the next (he backs it up on his computer). He said it was too confusing to delete the pictures and he never got around to it. I said he must have taken the photo, b/c she clearly had not. And why the fuck was this on his PHONE...5 years into our relationship?

I felt it was a lot different than porn. This is someone he was with intimately, and naked pics of her were on his phone. It felt like a violation and I asked him to delete the pictures. I also let him know that I lost a little respect for his judgment and that it was offensive to me and our relationship. He said he deleted the pictures. I dropped it after simmering a few days and a sincere-seeming apology from him.

Did I react okay? Am I an idiot? I've pretty much moved on but just thought I'd poll you guys/girls.

Ever since, even though we talked it through, I feel like I trust him less and I want to check the fucking phone! In 5 years together I never snooped but after this incident I feel the urge. I won't do it, though, because it would feel very wrong and I'd feel very, very guilty.

A Regular: I'd say he's just an idiot for not pulling the picture but that's it. I got in trouble the same way but a bit more serious. I had a few picture of my wife on the phone (now firmly locked in a photo vault program) that were 60's pin up style. So I'm showing picture of my new pet to a coworker and as he starts scrolling, well you can guess what happened. Luckily he's got a sense of humor but it could have ended very badly if it had been someone else. He just handed you the phone suggests that he had forgotten the photos were there.

I'd say if there are no other signs that he's cheating, then he probably isn't. But once the break in trust happens, it's hard to repair it.

You had the right to ask him to remove the photos. Porn is one thing. Pics of girls he has fucked in real life are something else.

I agree with Vlad and MonicaP. If there've been no other signs of agitation on his part, in any other circumstances, I'd say you did the right thing, and should try to get past it. It's hard, though, ain't it? I was there once, no twice, and both times, when the agitation on their parts didn't simmer down, I did some checking again, and bingo! caught 'em! It didn't make me feel good, in fact I felt downright foolish, but at least I had a good reason for ending the relationships before things got any worse. The hardest thing in the world is to regain someone's trust after it's been broken. Sometimes, it isn't worth the effort. Sometimes, it is.

"Pics of girls he has fucked in real life are something else."

Yup, Monica, you're exactly right.

Vlad: I think he knew they were there because the more I scrolled the more he visibly tense and tried to take it away.

But he 1) thought I wouldn't get upset (b/c I don't get easily upset by things a lot of ladies do - stereotypically, and in his personal experience). 2) Expected to get the phone back before I got that far.

"I keep scrolling through and he suddenly got really agitated and tried to grab the phone away." I got the impression from this that he remembered it was there as you were scrolling. I grabbed the phone from my coworker too as the first pic was the most PG of them. If that was all there was to it then it's foolish, but basically harmless.

A regular:

I would look at it thusly: gals keep old love letters and mementos from prior relationships, mostly out of a desire to occasionally bring up the bittersweet memories of past loves. What woman wants to completely forget that burning romance when she was 22, hot and free of adult burdens?

Well, guys often keep the racy pictures from past loves for similar reasons.

I doubt guys like the old love letter and other things much, but being guys, guys generally blow it off unless there is more to it than simple nostalgia. I suggest women adopt a similar attitude.

I agree with Spartee's view. There are times when you must weigh the ethics of snooping against the dangers of not knowing. If you're married, entangled with children, you don't just walk out on a hunch that someone is cheating. You need to know for SURE.

The other options you have are hiring a PI, GPS tracker, etc, which are expensive, and just as intrusive, really.

As for regular poster: Your reaction is normal, and so is your loss of trust.

Yes, women keep old love letters - usually in a box in the back of our closet that we might take out once a year, if that - but a phone is something you carry with you daily and look at all the time. I would question why he would need a photo of his ex in a thong on the ready like that.

Either this is actually a recent photo (my guess) or it was his favorite shot of her and still stimulates him, 5 years later. Both options don't sound that good.

People don't really understand the desire to snoop until they have a good reason. I'd say you have reason to be paying close attention, and...(oh, hell, I'll probably get flack for this), but if you happen to have legitimate access to his phone account, you might want to take a look and see if there are certain numbers he dials frequently. You may then be able to look up who they belong to online.

I paid the cell bills, and I found this an excellent source of info. I don't really think it's "snooping" when you have legitimate access.

Regular, you handled it better than I would have. I'm not so sure I would have bought his story 5 years into our relationship. First, I would have sat there and watched him delete them. The guy has a fancy phone and knows how to back up all his files on his PC, but it's too confusing to delete them? Something doesn't sound right with that. That said, I don't know the guy or your relationship, just adding my 2 cents. I wouldn't buy it.

A friend of mine discovered his wife of 18 yrs was cheating when he took some photos in to be developed, and intermingled with their family photos, there were shots of her with her lover.

You'd be amazed at the stupid ways cheaters slip up.

oooh, LS, I've been on the other side of the counter when a person picked up film and discovered the truth...

"don't shoot! I'm just the piano player!"

A regular: I would ask him to see his phone and I would check it again, IN FRONT OF HIM, to see if the photos were deleted. If they are still on his phone even after you asked that they be removed, you've got a really big problem. It is simply inappropriate to walk around with ex-gf porno on a hand-held device when you're in a serious relationship with someone else. It might not mean that he's cheating, but it would mean that he did not take your concerns seriously and that he lied to you when he said that he would delete the photos. It would be an indicator of a serious problem in the relationship, and you would be able to discuss it with him without reducing yourself to snooping. Whether he's cheating or not then becomes a separate issue.

Momof4: Nice try though Princess. Oh, and I wasn't justifying, anymore than I would justify yelling at a tech support person because I was having a bad day. Both are wrong. And both happen on occasion. Except, of course, for you, because as we all know you are perfect in every way, and know all there is to know about everything.

Oh, you're not justifying, huh? You sound just the LW whose letter prompted the discussion we had about this the last time.

She just figured most women spied on their mates, therefore saw nothing wrong with doing it. I never claimed to be perfect, dearest. But I do have an uncompromising stance on snooping. I don't believe that a relationship can be healthy or trusting if the partners have given themselves license to spy on each other.

Besides, I have a pretty full plate, and I juggle enough things on my computer without worrying about what's on someone else's.

"Irlandes, people who use anger that often do so as a means of social control. Sounds like your wife may use temper tantrums as a form of control and social dominance."

I once caught my girlfriend snooping my cellphone messages as I came out of the bathroom - not directly, but indirectly, since as I came out I saw the phone's display was lit and she was acting very funny (the display light only came on when one physically pressed buttons on the phone and then it would automatically turn off after 30 seconds or so). When I confronted her about snooping my text messages, she denied it and became *extremely* angry at me, as if I was such a horrible person for accusing her of such a horrible thing. So at the time, I gave her the benefit of the doubt, and assumed OK, maybe there was some other unknown reason the display light came on (which I never discovered, it had never happened before and and it never happened again with that phone).

In hindsight it's now obvious to me that she was reading my cellphone messages. It took me some time to learn the "pattern" though, through regular false accusations of infidelity, and that that anger was a manipulation tactic she used whenever she didn't want to admit that she had done something wrong. The accusations of infidelity and of me being a 'horrible person' every time I accused her of anything, no matter how factual, became more obvious as patterns of emotional control/abuse/manipulation rather than genuine defence.

Still, I was very much in love with her, and was badly broken up over it when she eventually broke up with me. But really, I was young, had poor self-esteem, and my then frequent need for validation had given her --- someone with a highly emotionally manipulative and abusive side (plus a very sweet 'other' side, a real Jekyll & Hide, to keep me hooked) --- a tool to bully me with. So in hindsight it's best it didn't work out. But this:

"YOU'VE BEEN DIVORCED HOW MANY TIMES AND YOU STILL BELIEVE EVERYTHING A WOMAN TELLS YOU?"

made me laugh a bit, because I suppose I used to be one of those idiots who believed everything a woman told me. Perhaps I was taken in by all the myths that women are somehow more morally pure than men. I don't remember.

Now, totally unrelated story, and true story, I had a good friend/colleague who had reason to suspect his girlfriend was cheating on him. He guessed her e-mail password, and uncovered *massive* amounts of evidence of cheating on a *huge* scale (literally at least a dozen other guys, and she was bragging with her friends and laughing about how he had no clue, and comparing how they were in bed and how they measured size-wise etc. ... again, true story, I am not exaggerating). It was devastating to him, and it took him a long time to get over it, and the whole thing turned uglier and uglier after it all came out.

Kim: "Still, I feel terrible I even looked. I knew better. I honestly asked for the password for innocent (and adult) reasons, but as soon as I was in there I turned into a nosey teenager! Do I need to tell him?"

I don't think so; sounds like you just accidentally succumbed to a natural human inquisitiveness ... it was a mistake, but you seem to already feel bad about it and (from what you say) it doesn't sound like it's your nature to keep doing this, so you've already corrected your moral compass.

A wife or girlfriend unhappy with her mate? I never heard about that before. What next? Black bananas flying out of my butt, or what?

A regular: "Did I react okay? Am I an idiot? I've pretty much moved on but just thought I'd poll you guys/girls."

I must admit I keep all old racy/nude/bedroom etc. pics of ex's ... didn't think anything odd of it. On a properly encrypted drive though, and I'm smart enough not to let anyone accidentally see them. I hardly ever look at them, and I would never feel right even looking at any pictures of ex's when I'm in a relationship with anyone new (nor do I generally feel the desire to ... when I'm with someone, I'm with that person). But I can't bear the idea of throwing the old pics away ... it would be like throwing a photo album away. Of good times.

I think it's very childish though if someone wants to try 'pretend' that their partner never had a sexual past with anyone else and 'force' their partner to throw away old pics ... or to think that they're somehow so special that all other ex's should be wiped from memory. Or if they would think that I should somehow throw those pictures away because I have someone new. It's part of my past, I wouldn't expect a woman to throw away photos from her past. I realise I've reached the age where almost any woman I'm likely to go out will probably have slept with one or more men before, and will quite possibly have been deeply in love with someone else before I came along, and as life happens, there may well be someone else after. That's *reality*. I'm not a big romantic.

The key word though is "The Past". Something you have put behind you. In your case, it does look very suspicious, as if the story about the pics being old might just have been an excuse, and maybe the ex was lurking in "The Present". There is no way to know now. But I think it's reasonable for you to have lost some trust after that; I would've too.

Omg, Swiss, really? That must be awkward.

A regular, I think Kimy's advice is good. He shouldn't have any problem with you looking at his phone if you ask. It's not unreasonable since he promised to delete them. However, if they're not there, it doesn't necessarily mean this is nothing.

Some cheating warning signs I've learned along the way:

- Unusual new workout routine or sudden interest in improving appearance.

- Low libido, or strangely, higher libido (some cheaters are so excited by what they've been doing with someone else, it carries over to you. Sounds flattering, but it's not).

- Frequent unexplained losses of contact (ie: their phone is supposedly dead, or they left in the car, etc)

- Never wanting to be away from the cellphone. If he takes into the bathroom while he showers, and never leaves it lying about, he may have things on it he doesn't want you to see.

- Minimizing the computer screen if you walk up, and also long periods behind locked doors on the computer (this might just be internet porn, but if he does it obsessively, even while you - a flesh and blood woman - are there to be with him, there could be something else going on).

- New female "friends," especially at work, and particularly if he often seems to find excuses to spend lunches or off-work hours with her ("she needs helping moving furniture", etc)

PS: Those all apply to women cheaters too, except I'd worry less about porn and more about social networking sites.

Hello friends, thanks for your input!

Lobster: I have a past. He has a past. It's cool. I just don't want to see his past, in her thong on his phone next to pictures of our pet. Also, if these things were buried deep inside his external hard drive in a pw protected file - where I'd never stumble across it, and it would take effort on his part to retrieve them - I would be more likely to feel that they are for nostalgia reason. But his cell phone? C'monnn.

And to the person who said she didn't buy his excuses: I didn't either. He's not a fucktard, he knew they weren't appropriate (he tried to take the phone and got flustered) and yet he didn't take them off...my ultimate conclusion is this: what guy doesn't want to look at some hot chick in a thong, esp. one he boned? His excuses were just his way to avoid owning up to the real reason...she's hot and fun to look at. (Damned slut!) I'm sure he wouldn't want to see my well-endowed ex nude on my cell phone.

It made me feel really disrespected b/c it was too in-my-face, too indiscreet. 5 years into it, have a little class or something, yanno? Since he hasn't done anything to make me not trust him in the past 5 yrs, and the rest of his behaviors match up with the man I know him to be (a solid, good guy), I just chalked this up to male ego/stupidity/thinking with his dick, and also my track record for not being over-reactive. He honestly didn't think I would care. HAH. Well. Now he knows.

...and no, I am not going to have him whip out his phone and show me he deleted them. He said he deleted them. I believe him, he knows I don't want to tolerate nude ex-gfs on his phone and I let him know what's at stake. If something like this happens again he will not be able to get off. Not a bad pun considering how tired I am right now.

A regular, are you sure this is an ex girlfriend? I mean, did you know her or have met her since you've been together?

No, Lovely. I don't know if it's an ex-"gf". He said it was "an ex". Whether she and he meant something to each other for more than five minutes I don't know. He said they haven't talked in years.

I am on the fence about this snooping business. I was raised to give other people the utmost privacy, but that soon fell to the wayside after I married.

I carefully set aside all of my husband's mail and refused to open it. I tried to hand it to him, but he refused it. I made a pile that kept building. Finally, I purchased a covered basket. Soon enough, the bill collectors started to call. I started opening all of his mail (and paying the bills).

The pattern had been set. I began to open all of his mail and just give him the things that he would think are important. Now, it is such a habit, I just open everyone's mail.

If someone is highly motivated, they will find a way to hide things, at least until complacency sets in and the clues are impossible to ignore.

My husband was worried about Face-booking because he had heard of so many divorces associated with it, so we have exchanges passwords. I don't think it is a big deal.

If I want to hide things, I can always open up another email, block numbers, erase my history, or purchase a pre-paid phone.

Having an absolute "no snooping" policy is noble and all, but not something I would follow. I am totally with Dan Savage on this one.

Let's say you feel uneasy about something in your relationship with a person you have dated for a few years. You try to figure it out by talking to them, you get nowhere. Are you supposed to dump them because of some unsubstantiated feeling? Or are you supposed to say "oh well, there must be nothing to it". It seems awfully naive and even dangerous. Especially when you realize that an infidelity could have serious consequences like STDs.

Obviously snooping on someone you just met, or snooping on a regular basis is wrong. However if you snoop and discover something serious I think you are totally justified.

It's awesome that so many people here are such amazing judges of character and all, but there are some pretty deceitful manipulators out there, and one has to protect oneself, especially when taking a chance could have serious consequences.

>>Irlandes, people who use anger that often do so as a means of social control. Sounds like your wife may use temper tantrums as a form of control and social dominance.

>>I will stand ten yards from you, holding a .357 mag pointed at your chest. I will then do everything you claim makes you so mad you cannot control yourself. My guess is you will not lose your temper at me.

Sure, I agree. My best friend lived in a ghetto for 20 years. he said the ghetto women don't get PMS. If they act out, their, er, man, runs in the bedroom, comes out with his .45 and says, "One more word, *****, and I pull." They heal quickly. I have to tell you, I don't know if he is telling the truth or not, but I know it was a pretty rough area.

In my wife's case, she is OCD, ADHD, and tries very much to dominate me, including telling me which spoon to eat with. (That is the OCD part, I think.) I usually just tune her out and do what I was going to do anyway.

I am well aware she shouts at me, because she thinks she can. She well knows I am not psychologically capable of hitting her, and knows I have been faithful all these years, so she figures there is no consequence to treating me as she wishes.

Some things have happened. We are 68, and a couple years ago, I was offered a 20 year old BABE as a mistress. I pretended not to understand the Spanish of the mediator and she found someone else to pay her bills. (I did have hot flashes for a week, though. :-) I didn't tell my wife, but I did tell her best friend. And, just about the time she had a chance to talk to her best friend, she got REALLY SWEET! Heh, heh. For a while.

This fall she was rough again. I sent a picture of the Lovely Gabriela to our daughter in the States while she was back visiting her, Gabriela is an incredibly gorgeous 18 year old who took English from me. she was dolled to the 9's at a wedding, and I took her picture. And, I called her the Lovely Gabriela in the e-mail.

The thing which made it interesting was my wife was at that wedding and had no idea Gabriela and I wandered off to take that picture, which would make her stop and think. Once again, she was really sweet for a while after that.

Then, her cousin told me last week, before she went to the States last time, he had a talk with her and told her that he understood she had lived in the States a long time. But, she is in Mexico now,, and he thinks she should start treating me with respect as a Mexican wife would.

I am pretty sure though he didn't say so to me that he probably also warned her that there are plenty of young chicks here who have expressed an interest in me, which would never happen to a 68 year old in the US, except very rich men perhaps. (I suspect if he knew his own daughter was on the list, there would be mayhem at his house...)

So, she slowly seems to be figuring out that maybe it is not a good idea to shout at me.

I have to be honest, those offers are VERY TEMPTING. I am 68. Can you imagine what goes through my mind when I have a not very subtle hint from a girl nearly 50 years my junior?

So far my long habits have protected me but I am not going to say I am a saint and nothing could ever cause me to fail.

> if you snoop and discover something serious
> I think you are totally justified.

But if you don't discover something, then you weren't justified, right?

> there are some pretty deceitful manipulators
> out there, and one has to protect oneself

Right, but rather than violating the privacy of someone you intimately love in an unjustified manner, consulting the wisdom of the best people you know is probably the better way to go. We need better judgment, not riskier judgment, or more inherently-consequential judgment... We want to see the world as it is, rather than force things until they break one way or the other.

Hmm. I have an absolute "don't expect 98% of society to change to fit me" policy, patrick. We all have our nobilities in life.

If you're married, you need to know. So you can decide if you want to uproot your kids lives and leave, or if you're going to stay but with your eyes open (ie no more sex, or sex only with condoms, whatever). And you can't count on a cheater to tell you the truth. Asking other people's opinion who's judgement you trust is all well and good, but I wouldn't bet my life on it.

"But if you don't discover something, then you weren't justified, right?"

Yeah, but there's no harm done. Your partner doesn't need to know, and probably doesn't care much anyway if there's nothing to hide. In fact, considerable trust is regained, and you can walk away knowing you won't be globally mocked for your naivete, like Elin Woods.

The problem is that there is no other way to find out in most cases. Consulting friends and family will bring you nothing. They do NOT want to get involved. The stories usually only come after you choose to leave. It's the rare friend who will tell you.

So, your choices are either to leave, break up a long-term relationship, and perhaps a family, on a mere suspicion - for which you will be widely condemned since you have no proof - or stay and try to convince yourself it's nothing - for which you may pay with an STD or worse.

Weighing the options logically, snooping causes the least damage for the most potential return.

That said, I don't snoop because I have no reason. My fiance can snoop on me if he has doubts, but there's nothing he'll find, and personally, I'd rather him see for himself. I'm not hiding anything, so snooping wouldn't cause me to go apeshit over it. I don't care if he looks at my web history.

He'll just see "Advice Goddess" over and over. Big deal.

Also, a lot of just keeping your eyes open doesn't have to mean violating privacy.

If you pay bills, check them closely. That's good advice anyway, in case you're being overbilled, but phone bills, particular, are a wealth of information regarding cheating that the cheater often forgets you'll see, or doesn't think you'll really review.

If you clean the house, look under the bed, and in closets. You have that right. If you happen to find a stash of kiddie porn...well, then, you're done cleaning. Pack up and get out.

Lobster: "I don't think so; sounds like you just accidentally succumbed to a natural human inquisitiveness ... it was a mistake, but you seem to already feel bad about it and (from what you say) it doesn't sound like it's your nature to keep doing this, so you've already corrected your moral compass."

Thanks Lobster, that's what I was thinking. I mean, the guy's password is so easy I couldn't forget it if I tried (the name and jersey number of the QB of his favorite football team), but I haven't looked again. He gave me his password willingly. I felt pretty weird about asking, but he was at work and I needed to get his taxes straightened out for him. Obviously, he wouldn't have done that if there was anything in his inbox he didn't want me to see. I don't know how to explain it...I just couldn't help scrolling through. I know he is a good man and that he only has eyes for me...which is why I feel so bad. I really don't think telling him would matter one way or the other, I just don't think I need to bring it up in conversation. I was tempted to clean out alll of his spam while I was in there, but at least I resisted that urge. :)

momof4: I agree that when you are married and there are kids involved you really need to be sure before accusing your partner of cheating, but if you are constantly checking up on them even though there are no other signs, that's a problem. That's a lot of mistrust for someone you commited to for life. If there are always signs, but you're just not finding proof, well...he's probably just out smarting you. I'm still not saying it's right, but I can see needing proof in that situation. In my opinion, that amount of mistrust between mom and dad is just as damaging to kids as them not being together. Kids are perceprtive. They can sense tension.

I value my privacy. If my fiance got into my emails, would he find evidence of me cheating? Absolutely not. But he might find an emails to my friends or family that are private not only for me, but for the person I'm conversing with. I would prefer him not to look through them. He knows all of my secrets, but that doesn't mean my friends want him knowing all of theirs. I find that if I am open and honest with him, there's no need for him to go through my things. We trust each other. I wouldn't be marrying him if we didn't.

I might should clarify I haven't snooped on my DH. I don't have the time or really, care to. Nor has he given me reason. But you can bet I would if he decided to join a gym and not be reachable while he was "working out". And I wouldn't feel wrong for doing it.

I snooped on my former husband once. He's been spending a LOT of time away. Good thing I did. he's wrecked my credit, we were way past due on everything, and he was cheating with an 18 year old. Lovely. I left him. I could have just left him anyway, since I had become suspicious, but it was nice to ahve rpoof, and had we had kids, I would have required it.

Those were supposed to be "he'd", not "he's". Sigh. Typing while being yanked on is not easy.

Typing while being yanked on is not easy.

Posted by: momof4

Every guy knows that momof4

I would not snoop on a boyfriend. As a general thing, I think it's wrong to snoop.

However, I do cut Elin some slack for reading Tiger's texts. He's constantly away and traveling. Rumors were all over the place that he was cheating. I'm sure she was at least beginning to mistrust him, and it sounds like he gave her plenty of reason. If no kids are involved I'd say she should just leave him if she doesn't trust him, but she's got two babies. She probably didn't want to leave him on a mere suspicion. Frankly, he was endangering her health (as well as their marriage) by sleeping with all those skanks, and if she suspected that was the case, I find it hard to condemn her for confirming her suspicions.

To those who do condemn Elin -- what should she have done? If she'd asked him, odds are he would have lied (he'd lied before). Judging from your previous comments, most of you would say she shouldn't leave her husband and raise two kids alone on a mere suspicion that he was cheating. I think it's good that he was forced to confront his behavior and is apparently getting counseling for it, and in this particular case, I don't think that would have happened any other way.

> Yeah, but there's no harm done.

There's plenty of harm done. You've trivialized and degraded the privacy of someone whose feelings and dignity you claim to hold dear. And you've weakened your connection to that person in a way that will make other, different violations more appealing to you in the future.

Our new galactic motto!

Planet Earth: It's not all about you.

____________

> To those who do condemn Elin -- what should
> she have done?

Before answering, let me remind you that it's not our responsibility to say. All the transparently insincere rhetoric we've had from this guy in the past six months, all the posing and bogus press-conference humility and shitty sentiment, has been cast out into the world by 21st-century media professionals because Elin wants it to happen.

I'm sorry this happened to her, but we needn't feign respect for any of the bubblegum-wrapper insights by which she's chosen to decorate her shame, no matter how little responsibility she bears for their summons.

What she should have done (if I read the situation correctly– and if I don't, then you fucking well shouldn't have asked, and SHE shouldn't have projected so much of her suffering into my consciousness, using all the media power she knew to be available when she married this goofball) is this:

• She should have understood that all lives have darkness, including those of very good-looking people, and very successful ones.

• She should have known that the impact of her beauty on the deepest, sincerest feelings of the men in her life was in fact a remarkably mechanical process, one that spoke little of her own righteousness or emotional safety.

• She should have anticipated that an athlete and celebrity so far outside the curve of sports performance, one using his superpowers to so violently, handsomely shatter one of the few remaining racist boundaries in the United States of America (that of the white country club), might face temptations of a nearly unprecedented nature. (In other words, Carrey is partly right.)

• She should have tamed her own feminine nature, which while presenting itself to all (including the self!) as supreme in matters of feeling, was no less fallible than that of any woman.

That's what she should have done.

People who believe themselves to be in fairy tales bear some responsibility for bad outcomes.

"People who believe themselves to be in fairy tales bear some responsibility for bad outcomes."

She was a chic, with plenty of reason to believe in her own value on the meat market, who met and eventually married a seemingly shy good guy. She bears responsibility how? Oh, by not realizing that money in the bank=dozens of skeevy hos? Yeah. Let's just get back to all men are dogs, then, and get on with it, is basically what you're saying.

> Let's just get back to all men are dogs, then

No, it's just that reality doesn't conform to schoolgirl fantasy.

> is basically what you're saying.

Aw, shucks, you don't need to translate or condense... I'm especially talented at saying exactly what I mean.

"She should have tamed her own feminine nature, which while presenting itself to all (including the self!) as supreme in matters of feeling, was no less fallible than that of any woman."

Uh? Crid, you should be a shrink. You give advice that's about as practical as they do.

The truth is, you don't have an answer for what she should've done in the situation she found herself IN...only that she should've never been there in the first place.

If you had a daughter, and she came to you for advice because the shy, nice guy she thought she'd married was showing signs of cheating, and she had two babies with him, "tame your feminine nature" would not be the kind of advice she'd be looking for. Thank goodness you never had kids.

You give advice that's about as practical as they do.

Huh? This thread is about giving advice to Elin Woods? She asked for advice?

> Thank goodness you never had kids.

Verily. This is my first prayer of gratitude as consciousness gathers every morning, as it did just twenty minutes ago: That there are no other mouths to feed or souls to lead; that I'm in no sense the author of this planet for any other people. You're welcome to share this gratitude for whatever cynical, deprecatory purposes you have in mind.

But if I'd had a daughter, we'd have spent nearly two decades together studying human nature and the demons within us all before she'd hit the marriage market, and she'd have learned not to let her sunny disposition and (stunning, electrifying) good looks deceive her about the challenges life brings to all people. People who spend time with me, especially intimates, are not permitted to pretend that all the evils of the world are 'out there' in the hearts of others, threatening us from some distance.

If Elin Nordigren were my daughter, as she is almost young enough to be, this wouldn't have happened.

(Allright, the "almost" is bullshit. She was born when I was junior in college.) (God Damn, that hurts.)

You do this a lot, LS—

> you don't have an answer for what she
> should've done in the situation she
> found herself IN...

I'd have taught her not to drive drunk, too. So when she'd called me from the drunk tank one Saturday night, it would have been problematic for us both. People who demand support and compassion from the society in these circumstances, whether in practical or just emotional contexts, always start the clock very late in the day, when the foolishness has already been grinding for awhile.

LS, you want to pretend that this could have happened to anyone, because it (or something equally sordid or disappointing) happened to you. I wouldn't be so blunt about it if you hadn't been so VERY eager to share your personal experience, and to assert that the person who caused your sorrow was successful and attractive such that we'd have envied you tremendously theretofore.

I doubt it.

> She asked for advice?

Gail invited us to pretend she had.

So, in other words, Crid, you could prevent your child from making any mistakes, romantically or otherwise. That's just silly. If you'd had children, you'd have realized that you can't always prevent that, no matter how well you teach them. They're going to make mistakes and suffer heartbreak, and yes, sometimes make the wrong choices.

I share my personal experience when relevant, often as cautionary tales to other women, so they won't be swept off their feet by a charming well-off man.

I give practical advice, whereas you give flowery prose. Admittedly, it's lovely to read a lot of the time, but not terrible helpful to anyone who is actually facing a tough situation. You merely say they shouldn't be in that situation...shouldn't have made a mistake in judgement, as if you never have.

Actually, I take it back. I wish you did have a daughter or son, as I think it would've given you more humility about how little you control the universe.

> So, in other words

Reading no further for the moment, let me assert that it's both telling and repulsive how often people translate actual statements into the ones they want to argue with (as you did above, with 'basically what you're saying').

I'm really good at this blog commenting thing, y'know? I nail it almost every time, saying exactly what I mean. If you're reflexively compelled to respond to something else, then my arguments are unchallenged. This makes bickering with you tremendous fun.

> you could prevent your child from making
> any mistakes, romantically or otherwise.

Did I SAY that? For fuck's sake, child... did I SAY that? (No, I didn't.)

What's happened to Nordigren and Tiger is more than a "mistake".

It would be merely a potent celebrity embarrassment –something like Peewee or Hugh Grant or Britney's haircut– if there weren't children involved. But the presence of fresh, tender souls turns this into a tragedy, not a "mistake".

And, Crid, I don't think this could happen to ANYONE, but to naive young women, yes, very easily - even those with wise, concerned fathers. If your beautiful daughter had been courted by Tiger Woods, even having been educated about the darker natures and demons and whatnot, you might've found she would've been more swayed by that fancy limo coming to fetch her than your sage advice.

Truth is, very few women would not have married Tiger Woods had he come courting. As someone else here said, even her mistake has arguably left her better off than 99% of the population. She leaves as a very wealthy woman, still in the prime of her life. People work all their lives and never make a fraction of the money she'll have after only 5 years. So, in a way, she's not to be entirely pitied for her poor choice.

I agree it's devastating for the children though. Not just to have their family broken, but I can't imagine how terrible it will be for them to read about this - and their dad's disgusting texts to those skanks - when they're older.

> Truth is, very few women would not
> have married Tiger Woods had he
> come courting.

Silliness. For all we know, thousands DIDN'T.

"Truth is"?

Besides, I think you've conceded.

> I don't think this could happen to
> ANYONE, but to naive young women,
> yes, very easily -

Isn't that the point? That one ought not be naive?

Yes, but most of us are, at one point or another, especially in our 20s, which, unfortunately, coincides with the female's peak years of fertility. Because of this, women often don't wait until they've had enough experience with men before marrying. Also, in very religious families, experience with men is discouraged, so those women stay particularly naive, while being pushed to marry young.

I read a columnist the other day who suggested that women shouldn't be allowed to marry before age 27, and men 35. I'd agree with that except that it would probably only result in more out-of-wedlock children.

What age did you marry? I just saw you elude to your dating experiences in your lates 30s/40s. I was under the impression you'd been married since the stone age. :)

> Yes, but most of us are, at one point
> or another, especially in our 20s

Says WHO?

You can't seem to take this point: Not everyone had your experience of these things. (Remember the motto!) Plenty of people had the naivete expunged from their lives during high school. Others, especially in homes with loving, demanding parents, were done with naivete in 8th grade.

This theme comes up on this blog all the time: People don't have the right to be stupid. Maybe the rest of us can't stop them, but we ought not be held accountable for their errors when they prefer comforting stupidity to unpleasant truth:

• I feel bad for people who bought mortgages they can't afford, and thought a simple house was worth more than it was. But if you miss payments or default, I think you (and your bank) deserve to suffer a loss and a ding to your credit-worthiness.

• I'm sorry Nordigren didn't see this coming, and truly sorry that Tiger misbehaved. But all this rhetoric of "therapy" and regret that we've been hearing through the media is ludicrous. It's a lie. It doesn't describe human nature correctly. Taken at face value, it does nothing to prevent this from happening to the next nordic Cinderella beauty to be wooed by a promiscuous sports champion. Tiger's swollen dick is not a medical condition, OK?

> who suggested that women shouldn't be
> allowed to marry before age 27

I'd say the big birthday for women is 30. That's the year they usually figure out (if they haven't already) that the Disney outcomes are bullshit, and that magic of their youthful allure is a diminishing quality in a competitive market. I've seen this hundreds of times.

Men don't really have that kind of birthday in their lives, unless it's 17 or someplace like that, someplace so statistically dynamic and noisy that you wouldn't want to ascribe transitions to (greater) wisdom to the passage of time.

"But all this rhetoric of "therapy" and regret that we've been hearing through the media is ludicrous. It's a lie. It doesn't describe human nature correctly. Taken at face value, it does nothing to prevent this from happening to the next nordic Cinderella beauty to be wooed by a promiscuous sports champion. Tiger's swollen dick is not a medical condition, OK?"

I totally agree with you there. It gives the impression that if you marry one of these guys and he develops a "sex addiction" (like it's just a passing condition), all you have to do is send him to rehab and have him "cured".

But I think naivete carries forward a little longer now - we've extended childhood well past what previous generations did. Especially for girls, who tend to be overprotected, the learning curve regarding how to handle men and relationships doesn't really start until they're out of the home. Then, it takes a few years of dating to really get savvy about things.

I hope my daughter doesn't marry until 30. I hope she takes her time, travels, and dates several different guys before picking one.

It's not only about choosing a good guy, but who she's going to be at 30, as opposed to 20. The same guy that attracts her then may not even be compatible with her later.

If I'd had to pick a guy right out of high school, I'd have married Shawn Cassidy....and I now I can't imagine why.

What were you doing looking at his web searches?

I'm amazed this still comes up after Windows XP has been out for what, 10 years now? How hard is it to set up different accounts for a shared computer? And how stupid is it to use a shared account for porn sites? My ex and I were (and still are, being very close) extremely respectful of each other's privacy. She was aware I looked at porn sometimes but she simply didn't want to know about it. So I kept it locked away where it wouldn't pop up in autocomplete. If friends need to use my computer I have a guest account for them. It's just common sense for crying out loud.

There was a close up pic of some girl, doing a very obvious come-hither stare. "Who's that?" I ask. An ex-gf. I go to the next one. It's the same chick, in a thong (that's it) on a bed on all fours with her ass taking center stage, and she's got her head turned so she's looking that the camera. He said she sent those pictures a long time ago (we've been together 5 years and we've never had trust issues - til that)

Big deal. Unless you've got some other reason to suspect him. I've got a box full of photos, letters, and notes from ex-gfs - none in thongs sadly, unless we're talking about beach footwear - and I look at it maybe once a year to reminisce. So it's on his phone, maybe that's where he keeps his memories. I don't trust electronic devices enough for that - but I know a few people who have years old texts on their phones because they are important to them.

He had a life before you. Get over it.