"[This] is a good opportunity to think about the relative contributions of banks and senators to our lives. Civil society, hampered at every turn by petty political rules, takes thousands of years to develop the technology, the complex market mechanisms and the levels of trust necessary for individuals to be able to get cash, at midnight, in an airport or a 7-Eleven, thousands of miles from home, from a bank that they do no other business with -- and members of Congress decide that the bank shouldn't be able to charge a dollar for that service. Imagine what kind of banking services we'd have if we had to wait for Congress to develop the necessary institutions -- and then imagine what we might have if Congress got entirely out of the business of controlling, hamstringing and bullying banks."

-Cato's David Boaz in '87

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=6088

""Banks shouldn't be able to turn accessing your own money into a profit center," said Jean Ann Fox, director of financial services for the Consumer Federation of America."

This is an idiot speaking. The buildings banks occupy and the wages they pay their employees come from profits.

While we have plenty of evidence that bankers left to themselves will rape their customers, there is little that political activism improves anything. Banks were directed to make loans to the unfit by Congress. That should tell anyone just how stupid they are to let the winner of a me-first! popularity contest have the keys to anything important.

Government leaders killed something 150 million people in the 20th century, and yet there are people who think the solution is more government.

$3?? We're up to $5 here! I don't see why anyone uses ATMs for anything other than deposits at their bank. There are plenty of palces that give cash back free with purchases. But why be rational, when you can pass a law, right?

I have not used an ATM machine since 1978. I never understood why it is so difficult to use the bank drive thru for free.

Bank drive-thrus are not a great alternative if you don't have a car, like me. But I've never found the fees oppressive. I use my own bank whenever possible, and I gladly pay the fee for when it's an emergency.

Like Momof4 I always use cashback at grocery stores. Why pay $3 when I can pay $1.50 and get a "free" soda with the deal? I consider any time I need t use an ATM to be poor planning on my part.

"I never understood why it is so difficult to use the bank drive thru for free." ~Joe

1) Banks are usually only open during business hours and unless you use one of the big banks with branches everywhere, there's a good chance that you can't make it to the bank and back during lunch. 2) I bank with USAA. Everything I need to do (except withdraw money) can be done electronically, but as far as I know the only physical location is in Texas. I live in PA.

Who the hell uses an ATM so much that they are racking up large fees?

Hell when I'm stateside I almost never use cash.

Credit unions, people. Ours offers free transactions at all of their own ATMs, and they cover the fees for some in-network transactions. That, combined with direct deposit of paychecks, means I hardly ever need to go in the building.

Yeah, you always kind of feel like a chump when you have to use a third-party ATM and pay the fee. That said, occasionally I find myself needing one, and when you need it, there's no substitute. So even though I don't use them much, I'm glad they're there and I'll gladly pay the fee on those occasions when I need one.

Rage against the (ATM) Machine!

Here in Mexico, an ATM withdrawal costs $2.50 USD, plus 1% international fee, plus the conversion rate is around 12.2 pesos per dollar when the correct rate is closer to 13.

I look at it as part of the cost of living in Mexico, which for those who can adapt is cheap living.

So, for around $9 in fees, I can get enough cash out of a Mexican machine, that some months it lasts me all month, nearly $400. And, the neighbors think I am rich. Oh, the pain of it all.

The feds should really stop trying to out think the banks. They fail every time. The bank will simply find some other fee to tack on to a large enough percentage of us to make up the difference.

Personally I've switched to all cash all the time. I find it easier not to buy shit I don't need when I'm using good old Americana green. We have one amex we split (low limit), which is fine since most of the purveyors of my two hobbies refuse to take Amex, I'm golden. We save shit loads in ATM fees since we pull x out on Saturday at the bank. No more over drafts as well, no interest (amex doesn't accrue interest if paid in full each month) we both have much more money for hobbies and still saving for the future.

Even if you believe the government is the messiah (which makes you pretty much insane) the banks are usually one step ahead anyway. So for each law the noble feds pass to protect their subjects the evil banks will simply skirt that law. Figure out a system that works for you and the banks can't really do much to get you individually.

I rarely use an ATM that isn't my bank's. My bank is 5 blocks from where I live, on the way to the train station. If I'm going to the city, I just walk to the train and stop at the bank along the way. My grocery store takes my debit card, no fee, and if I need some cash, I can get it there too. I haven't paid any bank fees in, geez, I can't even remember the last time I paid it. I pay one dollar a month in fees, for my debit card, and that's it.

Hi Flynne. Random shout out...I'll be in your 'hood this weekend. My cousin is graduating from Fairfield (FU!) and we're also going into the city.

Maybe I'll see you on metro north!

I just use my debit card. 99% of the time I need to pay for something, I can use my card. If not I usually know ahead of time, like if I'm parking my car at the T and they only take cash, so I can plan. If I'm in a jam I'll pay the $2 fee to use the BofA ATM by my office b/c Citizens hates Fort Point...

I rarely use the bank; I bank online an get cash at the ATM. My bank (a large regional force, for better or worse) eats all fees - even at ATM's not their own.

"Hell when I'm stateside I almost never use cash."

Last week a stripper told me she took cards - seriously. This no cash thing is becoming more and more of a reality.

I thought many states already had anti-gouging laws. I know we had least had them. Though they were pretty hard to run afoul. The last time I heard it applied was gasoline dealers and they managed to get out of it.

Fees around here are commonly in the $4-6 range. The information I had - now some years old - was that it cost about $0.25 to cover the cost of the transaction including paying to have the machine there.

At least around here, stores cannot give cash back on credit cards - that would be a cash advance and they don't have the agreement for that and if they did they would have to charge (or eat) the transaction fee. For a check card, you are limited to $20 and I think a percentage of the purchase (maybe 50% - so if you buy a soda for $1.50 you can get $.75 back).

I don't know if it is still the case, but a number of banks had started charging for teller service and reducing (or even eliminating) atm fees.

I am part of a credit union now and can generally manage to only use my CU's atm for no fee. Back when I had a job, there was no way to make it to my CU during banking ours. Ironically, I worked for a bank but couldn't use their service since the had no retail location close by.

Perhaps you should look at the "deals" your financial institution is offering. First, there's no such thing as a "free" anything. Then, the dumbest thing a company can do in the USA is hire an employee if there's any alternative. The presence of people is your clue that a company is profiting quite a lot. The liability of hiring is horrendous.

The interest they charge today is two to three times what they pay the Fed, and that number could come down, but people think that a percentage number is low and go for loans, not realizing that the ratio between their CDs and their debt service rate hasn't changed. Thus, the bank makes big money.

Amy's ongoing perfection aside (and by the way, you'd be more credible if you ever admitted to a single personality fault), not everyone can always predict when they will need cash and under what circumstance. Just yesterday I was charged a "convenience fee" for using an interac machine for a grocery purchase! I agree that convenience should have a cost, but the cost should be commensurate with the expense and value of the transaction. Charging an individual a grossly inflated price to access money that they have already paid taxes on AND already pay banking fees for is nothing but greedy. The criminal justice system insists that the punishment should fit the crime; why is it so hard for commerce to work the same way?

"The criminal justice system insists that the punishment should fit the crime; why is it so hard for commerce to work the same way?"

Well, if you define commerce as crime... I don't know what to tell you, except that maybe you need to find another universe to live in -- one in which every single thing in it exists solely for your convenience.

"I agree that convenience should have a cost, but the cost should be commensurate with the expense and value of the transaction."

This kind of notion is based on a completely naive and self-serving understanding of how economics works. i.e. you should only be charged approximately what the marginal cost of providing the service is.

This ignores the fact that someone had to risk their capital in creating the technology, invest in putting the infrastructure there in the first place. Why would anyone do all that if they cannot make a profit on each additional user?

Suppose I install a vending machine or arcade game machine somewhere. Obviously for every $2 people put into the machine, the marginal cost to me is probably only a fraction of that. But if you invest in putting the infrastructure there, you are entitled to a profit on each additional customer.

And if no-one used the machine, I would have blown all the money I invested into putting it there. That is, I'm taking the risk. So I profit if it goes well. Why should I take all the risk, then give you the benefit of only charging the marginal cost to me of using the service once it is established? Unless you expect business to act as a charity, this makes no sense.

"Charging an individual a grossly inflated price to access money that they have already paid taxes on AND already pay banking fees for is nothing but greedy."

So you are whining about paying taxes, but you are still happy to impose socialism on others when it suits you.

Sigh! Look up hypocrisy in the dictionary.

And, by the way, if the government can tell ATM owners what they can charge, and doctors what they can, what stops them from setting the going rate on fixing a toilet or telling you what you can charge for your services?

Amy,

Obviously you have forgotten about all the water savings from low-flush toilets.

I am still trying to find the old toilets to retrofit my house. I have a well and a septic tank. I find that having to flush my low-water use toilets 2-3 times doesn't seem to save water. But of course I have days that I have enough residue to be above the water level.

Of course, congress knows how to deal with that. ;-)

"Amy's ongoing perfection aside (and by the way, you'd be more credible if you ever admitted to a single personality fault)"

This immediately made me not want to read whatever else was posted, since it was sure to be whiney twaddle. I've never bounced a check, and I'm 40 years old. So bite me, I guess I'm perfect too. By your logic, I'd have to do more DUMB things to be taken seriously, which makes me unable to take YOU seriously.

Last week a stripper told me she took cards - seriously. This no cash thing is becoming more and more of a reality.

Ok, I have to ask - where does she get you to swipe the card?

*snicker*

I've bounced, ran up multiple "overdraft" fees, late on the CC, payday loan, and all the rest of the horrible banking fee type incidents that can be named (and some unnamed).

I have used the overdraft to rob Peter to pay Paul. But my bank knows they will hear from me if the OD fee wasn't deserved. (I.e. payday night and the money will be there by the processing time.)

I'm not crazy about it, but I understand what I'm doing and live with it. So the U.S government can FOAD.

> Last week a stripper told me she took cards -
> seriously. This no cash thing is becoming
> more and more of a reality.

An hour ago the grocery (Pavillion's, one of the tonier Southern Cali chains) I saw the checker hold up a twenny (fifty, maybe) to the light, and right in front of the customer, who didn't seem at all offended. And I thought— When was the last time you saw a retail functionary offering ANY resistance to a credit card whatsoever?

Make fun of banks. Make fun of Goldman, make fun of Citi, make fun of whomever you want. Everyone in the world seems to understand that they're running a tighter shop than is the federal reserve.

(Let me note, in a parenthetical closing comment, that I loathe my President and all my federal-level representatives, without exception and without surcease. Thanks for reading this far.)

There are literally hundreds of industries based off selling convenience. You pay more to have your pizza delivered instead of picking it up yourself, to take a taxi rather than waiting for a bus, to jump the lines at an amusement park, etc etc. There's no reason why ATMs shouldn't be able to charge for convenience as well. Yes the $3 fee is annoying but whenever I pay it, it means that I've decided that having cash right when I need it is worth $3, and it usually is. If you plan ahead and use ATM's sparingly then the fee is basically negligent anyway.

If you plan ahead and use ATM's sparingly then the fee is basically negligent anyway.

I think you meant negligible - but actually it works either way :)

"And if no-one used the machine, I would have blown all the money I invested into putting it there. That is, I'm taking the risk." Well yes but when the banks take a risk it's with your money and if they fail you and I get to bail them out. In addition to losing a chunk of that money we gave them in the first place to fees.

I think we should let the market decide what to charge. The fees are $3 to $20 dollars because people in a given area will pay that. Want it to go down then don't use the ATM and the prices will drop. That's how free market works. Unless the ATM owner get a bail out.

BTW those cock sucker at BOA now charge their own customers to use an out of network ATM. So it's $2 from the ATM and $2 more from BOA. The best part is that they have no reason not to because they are TOO BIG TO FAIL.

"and you will likely leave Bank of America forever" Doing so now but they will still get my tax dollars so leaving will have no effect.

Since I design banking machinery for a living . . .

Yes, the system cost to the bank of a not on-us ATM transaction is likely between 25 and 50 cents.

But that's not the only cost of operating an ATM. It bever ceases to amaze me that so many people seem to think that you can buy, install, operate and maintain a complex machine like an ATM for nothing.

A decent through-the-wall ATM in a busy off-site location will contain more than $100k in cash. That cash has to be gotten there by armored-car service, which also removes deposits and replenishes consumables. An armored car run is never less than $100, often a lot more, never mind the overnight value of the cash itself. Every day.

That same decent through-the-wall ATM cost its owners in excess of $100k to purchase and install, with a service life between 4 and 6 years. Many off-site ATMs are not bank-owned, which means the investor who bought & installed the machine needs to recover his investment, plus operating expenses unique to the off-site (power, surveillance, insurance, datacomm, scheduled maintenance, repairs &c) and turn a decent profit as well.

Overall costs of ATM transactions vay widely, depending on location and the situation of the specific machine. There are ATMs on Nantucket, and at the Grand Canyon overlooks, for example - but their owners have to have cash trucked in from the mainland, or from more than 100 miles away, every day and sometimes more than once a day. Do the math.

One thing's for sure - if politicians give in to their populist impulse and impose limits on ATM withdrawal fees, the one certain outcome will be less ATMs, and the ones that disappear will be precisely in those locations where users would happily pay a higher fee for the conveneince of the machine being where it is.

llater,

llamas

Yes, thanks for those thoughts. A good man emailed this morning with a comment about how insurance company management is often so proud of its skills and forward-thinking... But in truth, government regulation is so thick that they're just along for the ride anyway. Bank will soon be very much like that, with contributors riding herd on the legislatures. This will end badly.

And if no-one used the machine, I would have blown all the money I invested into putting it there. That is, I'm taking the risk. So I profit if it goes well. -- Nick S.

Based on the numbers I have seen, at the average fees you see around here ($4 or even more) your risk of loosing money on the venture is pratically zero so long as it is placed in a reasonable location (e.g. not your backyard - bank, convenience store, mall, bar, etc. ).

Of course, the cost varies by site. The $.25 I said earlier was average - the cost the bank figured on when deciding to set up a new machine. Keep in mind that if an atm needs to be serviced a lot it also is generating a lot of fees.