Woody Or Wouldn't He?
Excellent post at Psychology Today on why men use porn by Dr. Mark Goulston:
For women, verbally venting their frustrations is a great stress reliever. No one knows why; it just is. Well, for men, an orgasm is a great stress reliever (not to say that that isn't also the case for women)....There are two kinds of sex -- sex with love and sex just for sex's sake. Many husbands feel guilty about having sex just for sex's sake with their wives, because they feel like they are using her as a thing (as opposed to making love to the person they care about). So instead of using their wives as things, many men use pornography and masturbation (and often feel ashamed or even pathetic for doing so - one man in a couple's session when confronted yelled in embarrassment, "Meet Hilda!" and pointed to his right hand). I'm not advocating it or saying it's a wonderful practice, I'm just saying it's fairly common and not always unhealthy. Pornography and masturbation (in moderation) have probably saved more marriages than they have hurt. I think it's pretty sad, but it's just a fact of modern life. The trick of course is to do it in moderation rather than letting it become a full time substitution for real sex.
To give you an idea of the stress men feel, one man asked me a few months ago if I knew what the definition of a shower was. I told him I didn't. He told me: "A shower is the place where grown men go to cry when they're afraid they can't keep the promise they made to their wives and children to always take care of them and don't want their family to see how afraid they are."
Sometimes a guy just wants to get off. If it's to Svetlana and her udders, it's really none of your business unless you aren't getting it thanks to Svetlana and friends, or unless he's beating off so much that he stops eating, sleeping, and going to work.
Let me say it again, for those who didn't read/see/hear it the first 300 times: Male sexuality and female sexuality, and males and females, are different. The differences play out in a number of ways -- for example, just above and just below.
A churlish newcomer commented the other day on a column:
Women are idiots. you want it both ways. A strong man to "take care of business" and a sensitive man to look after your needs.
My reply:
The idea that men aren't "sensitive" is bullshit. They just don't express it like women, nor should they be expected to. It's related to brain structure, it seems, and hormones. Testosterone isn't exactly "the chat hormone."
I don't disagree with what was said except to say.....there was an underlying suggestion that women aren't in need of "quality alone time" (and it isn't a stress reliever). Maybe that is overwhelmingly true, however, it isn't based on my own experience/obervations. My experience says women also enjoy their "quality alone time" (one difference being a good visual works for men -- while it's a good story/scenario that works for women......though again based on my experience women most definitely aren't opposed to a good visual).
Regarding "men aren't sensitive", it's conventional wisdom that says that. CW is wrong....just as it is wrong about love-marriage-relationships (among others).
TW at June 14, 2010 12:12 AM
Well, I haven't done the study, but the perception I get is that a women's masturbation as well as her use of generically cock shaped vibrators or definitely cock shaped dildos is cherished, sacred, holy, sacrosanct. Each and every female orgasm is a reason for a new tweet.
But a man's masturbation or his use of porn or his general fantasizing about specific female body parts or acts done to him is bad, shameful, perverse, objectifying, patriarchal, disgusting, creepy, sick.
More specifically, sometimes a woman fantasizes of rape. And sometimes a man fantasizes about rape. Compare and contrast the reactions.
jerry at June 14, 2010 12:53 AM
This is the same agenda-driven BS as numerous other posts here, whose goal is to convince people that they are slaves to their baser animal natures. ("Men are genetically programmed to cheat" etc.)
Baloney.
In my religious Jewish community, men are forbidden to even touch their wives for 10 days out of every month. They somehow manage to get through without "Svetlana and her udders".
How?
We limit our consumption of media crap, and build communities where the social norms is family-friendly - including a norm of masculinity that is not pegged to the lowest common denominitor of PUAs and "scrubs".
Not more than 50 years ago, the vast majority of American young people adhered to norms of dress and behavior that are now branded "prudish" or "repressive".
Ben-David at June 14, 2010 12:57 AM
> He told me: "A shower is the place where grown
> men go to cry when they're afraid they can't keep
> the promise they made to their wives and children
> to always take care of them and don't want their
> family to see how afraid they are."
Um— It's not like I have a wife anymore or ever had kids, but that's just silly and overwrought. Someone's sense of drama is being pandered to....
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at June 14, 2010 4:52 AM
Nothing wrong with masturbating. Sometimes, I just want the release without the bother. Doens't bother me at all that DH does too. It's like the difference in a fast food burger and a 4 course 4-star meal. Both can be good, and sometimes you just need a meal without all the time invested.
I have issues with porn. I have issues with the unrealistic expectations it can give of women and the fact that very nearly all women in it lost their ability to choose a long time ago. I get that men are visual-driven (I would own no thongs otherwise). I don't hate men for that. I just have issues with porn.
momof4 at June 14, 2010 4:52 AM
It's like — "Sometimes a guy just wants to stay home from the transmission shop and sit on the couch in a big fluffy sweatshirt and slam down a whole container of Haagen-Dazz and cry and read Car & Driver with the smooth jazz station on the radio.... Because MEN have feelings, too!
No.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at June 14, 2010 5:03 AM
"They somehow manage to get through without "Svetlana and her udders".
Do they? Monitoring web usage, are you?
Spartee at June 14, 2010 5:14 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/06/14/woody_or_wouldn.html#comment-1723611">comment from Ben-DavidIn my religious Jewish community, men are forbidden to even touch their wives for 10 days out of every month. They somehow manage to get through without "Svetlana and her udders". How? We limit our consumption of media crap, and build communities where the social norms is family-friendly
OH, PLEASE!
When I lived on 19th Street in New York, when I'd first moved to New York, I was followed into my building one day by a young Orthodox Jewish guy -- in the hat and peyas and everything -- who pushed me up against the wall and tried to kiss me.
Later, when I was asked to write a film about women who wrestle men for money (as a sexual thing), the women who did told me that many of their customers were Orthodox Jews. Beards, black hats, peyas and all.
Amy Alkon at June 14, 2010 5:53 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/06/14/woody_or_wouldn.html#comment-1723612">comment from Amy AlkonOh, and Crid, agree with you on "overwrought" at the end.
I think the guy felt compelled to go that route to justify the "stress reliever" take.
Amy Alkon at June 14, 2010 5:54 AM
Everyone has different tastes and desires, and whether they admit it or not, both men and women have their ways of getting their rocks off in private. Why is everyone so hung up with all this unnecessary guilt? If you and your sweetie want to indulge your little sexual quirks together, that's fine. If each of you has something you'd prefer to do by yourself, that's okay, too. Just close the door discreetly if you don't want people to see what you're doing, and of course, don't do anything that would physically or emotionally harm yourself or your sweetie (unless for some reason you like that sort of thing, but I don't roll that way :-)). As long as you're doing your own private thing IN ADDITION TO your "couple time" rather than INSTEAD OF "couple time," there's nothing to be ashamed of. Lighten up, folks!
DorianTB at June 14, 2010 6:15 AM
Let me say it again, for those who didn't read/see/hear it the first 300 times: Male sexuality and female sexuality, and males and females, are different.
---------------------------
Thank you for saying this. This should be so painfully obvious, but people today are so indoctrinated about "equality" that something as obvious as this needs to be taught to them.
Our parents and their parents knew this.
I had to explain this to a 40 year old female co-worker with 4 children a couple of months ago. I said sex between males and females is not equal.
She of course disagreed with me.
I gave her the following example: I said she could go out in front of the building where we work and start hitch-hiking. She would be picked up probably within 2 minutes by a guy and she could be having sex within 5 minutes if she wanted. She could repeat this all day long everyday for a year. I could go to the same street and hitch-hike and not be picked up by a woman wanting to have sex with me in a year. It gave her a totally different perspective and she said yeah you're right.
I also had to convince her that women have all the power- because they say if, when, and where sex will take place.
David M. at June 14, 2010 6:34 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/06/14/woody_or_wouldn.html#comment-1723625">comment from David M.I gave a similar example to a friend, but made the setting a bar, David M.
Amy Alkon at June 14, 2010 6:46 AM
> I think the guy felt compelled to
> go that route
Well it's like he's saying it and taking it back with the same breath: 'Men and women are not at all alike, but actually they're exactly the same, it's just that men are so ashamed....' etc etc etc. So a man is just a woman who weeps in the shower instead of the living room.
The stereotype of the laconic, masculine guy isn't just a fable... (And those of us who do like to talk a lot often get pissed off when people people say stupid things.)
Crid [cridcomment at gmail] at June 14, 2010 6:56 AM
I knew a few women who swore their men never masturbated or watched porn. Why? Simply because the woman found it distasteful and wouldn't allow it. Of course those are the men that hide their stash and do it when "honey" is out shopping or lunching with the girls. A man is built differently. He wakes up hard. What's wrong with him taking care of that? And what's wrong with sex sometimes just for sex? Its all the rules that need to go.
Kristen at June 14, 2010 7:00 AM
I don't know if I take the weeping in the shower thing literally, but the current economy is affecting men who want to provide but can't.
I'm Miss Chatty, and I talk to a lot of strangers. The woman who gave me my mammogram told me that her brother had to move to Dallas (away from their family here) after finding it absolutely impossible to find a new job in Los Angeles.
This time recalls Hoovervilles and such for me.
I got an e-mail from a guy who was suicidal because he couldn't find a job after looking constantly (maybe for over a year, if I remember correctly).
On a side note, the guy wrote me because the suicide hotline COULDN'T TAKE HIS CALL.
You know we're in trouble, as a society, when the suicide hotline is all "Your call is very important to us...please don't shoot yourself, we're gonna be a while," and then NEVER picks up.
Amy Alkon at June 14, 2010 7:30 AM
If it's to Svetlana and her udders, it's really none of your business unless you aren't getting it thanks to Svetlana and friends
There's this. In my first marriage, he was the only one getting any. We were both virgins, and it's rough when the entirety of your sexual experience is beating it off to Svetlana. In fairness to him, though, I remember being floored that anyone ever figured out which parts went where.
MonicaP at June 14, 2010 7:31 AM
Oh, in case you're wondering, I asked for his phone number, called him, and I think explained why he was feeling so depressed (men as providers, etc.) and gave him some advice.
Basically, I think he just needed a stranger to care about him enough to do something for him.
Which reminds me of something that happened last week, or maybe two weeks ago. I was writing and somebody had a HOWLING child screaming for about 5-10 minutes straight outside my house. I went outside to snarl at the "parent," but it wasn't a parent and child at all. It was a woman wailing at the top of her lungs. "Are you okay, did something happen to you?" I asked.
"My father died," she said.
"I'm so sorry," I said, and being bad about what to say in death situations, just blurted out, "Can I get you a bottle of water."
I mean, how water relates to fathers dying, I don't know, but I ran in and got her a bottle, and brought it to her, and she thanked me and stopped crying.
I think she just needed another human being to care and do something, really ANYTHING, for her.
Reaching out to strangers -- the need for us to do that in a spread-out society of strangers -- is part of my last book and a substantial part of the next.
I was touched by a Nancy Rommelmann post in which she tells her daughter (about her help for a drunk/drugged girl):
http://nancyrommelmann.typepad.com/nancy_rommelmann/2010/06/four-parts.html
Amy Alkon at June 14, 2010 7:37 AM
Oh, in case you're wondering, I asked for his phone number, called him, and I think explained why he was feeling so depressed (men as providers, etc.) and gave him some advice.
Basically, I think he just needed a stranger to care about him enough to do something for him.
"I'm so sorry," I said, and being bad about what to say in death situations, just blurted out, "Can I get you a bottle of water."
I mean, how water relates to fathers dying, I don't know, but I ran in and got her a bottle, and brought it to her, and she thanked me and stopped crying.
I think she just needed another human being to care and do something, really ANYTHING, for her
_--------------------------------------------
Very cool Amy! Those are very caring gestures and god knows we need more humanitarians. Don't blush but my already high opinion of you has just soared.
David M. at June 14, 2010 7:58 AM
My wife doesn't care where I get my appetite as long as I eat at home.
Todd Fletcher at June 14, 2010 8:17 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/06/14/woody_or_wouldn.html#comment-1723645">comment from David M.Thanks, David M.
I'm also proud to be a bitch when it's called for.
But, with very little effort, you can make a big difference in other people's lives. And, per the happiness research I quote in my book, it's in your self-interest to be generous and pro-social. You'l like yourself better and it seems to communicate to others that you're a good egg.
Amy Alkon at June 14, 2010 8:30 AM
But, with very little effort, you can make a big difference in other people's lives.
I remember about 10 years ago, I had had a completely terrible, horrible, no good, very bad day. While I was waiting at the bus stop, a drunk, homeless guy said, "You look like Nicole Kidman, without the tooth problem." I'm not sure whether he was referring to my tooth problem or hers, but it was the only remotely nice thing anyone had said to me all day. I loved that homeless guy.
MonicaP at June 14, 2010 9:19 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/06/14/woody_or_wouldn.html#comment-1723657">comment from MonicaPAwww.
Amy Alkon at June 14, 2010 9:20 AM
From my limited experince women who have fervent objection to spanking the monkey come in two flavors. Religious objections and control freaks. The religious objections while silly are generally benign, lacking in any malice. The second type are the ones that worry me, they are typically filed with hate and rage for being unable to control other facets of their lives.
On a side note.
"I was followed into my building one day by a young Orthodox Jewish guy -- in the hat and peyas and everything -- who pushed me up against the wall and tried to kiss me." This is why I support carrying a firearm, the little fucker rightly deserved a toe tag.
vlad at June 14, 2010 9:23 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/06/14/woody_or_wouldn.html#comment-1723663">comment from vladI used to see him every day after that, walking with the herd of black-clad Orthodox Jews to 47th Street Photo (on 18th Street...I think they had some outlet there). He'd hang his head when he saw me.
Amy Alkon at June 14, 2010 9:30 AM
> typically filed with hate and rage for
> being unable to control
The tantrums of a child. Plenty annoying in our personal relationships, but they're not yet marching in the streets (besides, y'know, the lefties. By my understanding, it's not possible that something called the "New School for Social Research" could even have a "Distinguished Professor of Philosophy"... It would be a contradiction in terms.)
(Wikipedia: "From its founding in 1919 by US Fabian Socialists....")
Crid [cridcomment at gmail] at June 14, 2010 9:38 AM
"Plenty annoying in our personal relationships, but they're not yet marching in the streets" Anti porn rally at UNH which is a far cry from the crap pandering socialist haven of the New School.
http://www.fosters.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100416/GJNEWS_01/704169923/0/FOSNEWS
vlad at June 14, 2010 9:53 AM
To what effect, beyond earning mockery on west coast blogs?
Academe, babe.
Crid [cridcomment at gmail] at June 14, 2010 10:08 AM
'Sides, I excepted the lefties!
Crid [cridcomment at gmail] at June 14, 2010 10:09 AM
In case there's any doubt about women needing some quality alone time & stress relief of their own, take a look at this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4713323.stm
It's a 28,000 year old sculptured & polished dildo from an Ice Age cave in Germany.
Did the cave-woman who used this whine & bitch about her husband whacking off to the Venus of Willendorf after the mammoth hunt?
Martin at June 14, 2010 10:16 AM
"Your call is very important to us...please don't shoot yourself, we're gonna be a while"
That's nothing. Wait until they put in the voice mail systems: "Press 1 if you have a gun. Press 2 if you are taking pills. Press 3 if you are about to jump off a cliff..."
Cousin Dave at June 14, 2010 10:18 AM
fine Crid we have the same dip shit behavior from the far right. Though in this case it's anti gay porn.
http://media.www.smithsophian.com/media/storage/paper587/news/2008/02/28/News/Umass.Republican.Club.Confronted.During.Rally.For.Public.Decency-3237528.shtml
vlad at June 14, 2010 10:35 AM
So don't patronize the far right... No skin off my nose.
Crid [cridcomment at gmail] at June 14, 2010 10:46 AM
When people are on that river de-nial, it always cracks me up. "My husband would never [do what any other human male would do}. U-huh. Sure. That goes along with "We don't do it that often, but he's fine with it."
When we first were married, you never let me sleep, now you never let me sleep in the same bed... I wonder what this study would look like when controlled for the length of relationships or marriages, and how often the guy's mate indicates they are intimate, and how often they themselves say they are.
Bottom line to Amys point about male/female differences... the effect of men being made to mate as often as possible, is that you have to figure out other alternatives when that isn't possible in modern life. When in the course of human events you discover that "hmm, it also feels good, destresses and so forth! WIN/WIN!"
And 5 fingered Sally never makes up a reason to say no.
SwissArmyD at June 14, 2010 10:55 AM
I find a lot of people can't acknowledge (let alone explore and try to understand) some of the differences between men and women. Girls my age, I think, expect guys to think just like they do. Or be the ultimate empathetic mind readers. To be really general: a lot of what we all enjoy talking about on this blog (evolutionary psych/female vs. male) is highly offensive and radical to girls my age.
I was talking to a guy, as he was kicking my ass, on Saturday morning (http://www.sssfighting.com/) b/c he is frustrated with women in general. He was telling me how he mainly meets chicks: in bars, and girls who fight/know fighters. He said "porn has ruined women". I kept my mouth shut to hear him out: he theorized that porn and t.v in general has gotten women to a point where they don't know how to act normally. They think they're supposed to act like women in shows, and that in the bedroom they need to be like a porn star.
Granted, most of these girls he dates had rough upbringings and probably have issues because they got tossed around by their dads (they date dudes who kick ass for a living...). He was frustrated that he couldn't sit and talk about different topics with women like he was with me. I felt really bad b/c he's a good guy but I explained he's picking the wrong chicks in the wrong places. But I did agree with some of what he said b/c it seems true: women can't just be themselves. People my age are constantly playing into some role. At least, I see it around me all the time. Anecdotes may not mean much, but this is observable outside my own immediate group of friends.
The flip side of this is: It's really hard for ME to make FRIENDS with other girls.
I told him to take a class or two at the Harvard Extension school...people go there who are trying to better themselves and there's a higher chance of meeting someone who isn't focused on sleeping around with fighters and who have major daddy issues. Or, try a dating website...just stop going to trashy townie bars and stop sleeping with ring girls. Hopefully he'll listen.
Gretchen at June 14, 2010 11:11 AM
just stop going to trashy townie bars and stop sleeping with ring girls. Hopefully he'll listen.
I'm seeing this issue with a friend of mine. She's 32 years old and still meeting guys in bars, which isn't a problem in and of itself, but she wants to get married and have lots of kids, and she doesn't get it when I tell her that men in the types of bars she frequents aren't looking to make babies with her, unless it's to make babies and leave. She sleeps with them first, and if she likes the sex, she has a relationship with them. I don't remember the last time she's had a relationship that has lasted more than a couple of months.
Men and women, for all their differences, seem to have the same problem: They look for partners in all the wrong places, ignore the obvious signs, then complain that there are no good men or women. No, maybe there are no good men and women at "Bob's Love Shack and Beer" at 3 am.
MonicaP at June 14, 2010 11:24 AM
"and that in the bedroom they need to be like a porn star." This is a bad thing why now?
vlad at June 14, 2010 11:37 AM
"This is a bad thing why now? "
It's bad in that they're trying to act. They're pretending to be dirty...and maybe they really are, but mostly they're not naturally the way they're acting, nor do they feel good acting that way. It's one thing to do something you aren't crazy about, but your partner is, just to make that person happy sometimes. It's another to be so insecure in the sack that you feel like you need to perform for the camera. NOTHING is real.
Maybe I'm not wording this right - but the result is some kind of awkwardly force performance. We all act a little bit. Perhaps we aren't so forthcoming with our complaints about stuff when we meet someone b/c we don't want to immediately appear to be miserable. We can reveal pieces of ourselves to a person over time. But those pieces ought to be genuine. Not "Okay now I need to smack him a little b/c they do that in porn and it's hot?". I did that. And the guy slapped me back and I was shocked. He laughed and was like "see, it's not really sexy like in a dirty movie - it hurts!". I had never thought about it before b/c I was trying to give him what I thought he wanted...based off what I watched in movies.
I realized this, felt embarrassed for my young, misguided transgression(s) and moved on. My friends don't get it even after I tell them.
Gretchen at June 14, 2010 11:50 AM
"Okay now I need to smack him a little b/c they do that in porn and it's hot?" Ah ok that's not what I envisioned when you said act like a porn star. I prefer my violence and sex to be completely separate. Also I get what you mean by everything feeling fake.
vlad at June 14, 2010 11:58 AM
> It's bad in that they're trying to act.
> They're pretending to be dirty...and maybe
> they really are, but mostly they're not
> naturally the way they're acting
And then comes a wee voice from the gallery... "Hey, Crid! Does this resonate with your theory that much of the support for gay marriage is also a posture of sexual sophistication by people who don't really think about it much, and who, y'know, spend too much time watching television?"
Reply: Why yes, Pilgrim, it does resonate, and thanks for asking.
I don't think there was ever a time in history when it was cool to be erotically naive. But there were certainly contexts when being unaware wasn't a source of great shame. And it's at least possible that since the advent of mass media and the penetration (so to speak) of Hollywood fashion generally, the rage for being in the know has been cranked up to an extreme (and unproductive) degree. When grown women wanna get slutty, everybody's happy; When younger women feel compelled to fake an understanding of these forces, it's pathetic. ('C'mon honey, didn't you see that movie?')
See also, family composition.
Crid [cridcomment at gmail] at June 14, 2010 12:49 PM
"When grown women wanna get slutty, everybody's happy; When younger women feel compelled to fake an understanding of these forces, it's pathetic. ('C'mon honey, didn't you see that movie?')"
So we agree - people are *acting* not living. And it's sad and results in very unhappy relationships with very unhealthy behaviors within those relationships?
"See also, family composition."
Sure.
Too much porn, and not enough dads probably had something to do with the current trend I am noticing in my peers. I've seen the same kind of sexual timidness, concealed behind some kind of sex goddess persona, being worn by all sorts of people - stereotypically trashy ones, buttoned-up ones...but the problem is always the same. No confidence and total confusion as how to act and *interact*. How else can people learn how to behave but to watch some Jersey Shore or Real World (back in its heyday) b/c mom and dad are too busy ignoring them to show them how to be nice.
These people also suck as friends.
Gretchen at June 14, 2010 1:14 PM
Male sexuality and female sexuality, and males and females, are different. The differences play out in a number of ways
---
that's right Amy, porn works for men and erotic literature works for women.
Ingrid at June 14, 2010 1:20 PM
Most of the problems in marriage come from bait and switch. The woman acts like she really wants the man sexually and then gets the ring and than just wants to talk and cuddle.
The guy may act like a real hard worker and than switch to slug behavior.
Both partners need to ask them selves….. Would my partner marry me now based on my current behaviors.
Guys are NOT wired for monogamy even though culture/economics demand it. Most men take the past of least resistance. If the wife is not available they WILL go somewhere else. The question is where their wallet or looks/personality ambition can take them. Porn is the easiest way.
We have a generation of men being raised by single mothers that are turning them in to wuss bags. They are taught to step lightly around female emotional firestorms. Instead of being direct with their needs they take the path of least resistance where ever it may take them. Lincoln freed the slaves. Many in relationships don’t realize that.
David H at June 14, 2010 1:26 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/06/14/woody_or_wouldn.html#comment-1723712">comment from Ingridthat's right Amy, porn works for men and erotic literature works for women.
As I wrote here, quoting evolutionary psychologist Catherine Salmon.
http://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/07/when-hairy-palm.html
Amy Alkon at June 14, 2010 1:39 PM
"Regarding "men aren't sensitive", it's conventional wisdom that says that"
No, it's conventional stupidity that says that.
"I gave her the following example: I said she could go out in front of the building where we work and start hitch-hiking. She would be picked up probably within 2 minutes by a guy and she could be having sex within 5 minutes if she wanted. She could repeat this all day long everyday for a year."
http://www.wetherobots.com/2008/01/07/youve-been-misinformed/
(As you said, this should be obvious ... but people don't think.)
"My experience says women also enjoy their "quality alone time""
The drive to masturbate is obviously far, far lower in women than men.
Lobster at June 14, 2010 4:05 PM
Crid said "I don't think there was ever a time in history when it was cool to be erotically naive. But there were certainly contexts when being unaware wasn't a source of great shame."
Actually, in Victorian times it was, at least nominally, cool to be erotically naive. In the preface to his great work of mythology, Thomas Bulfinch wrote:
"Having chosen mythology as connected with literature for our province, we have endeavored to omit nothing which the reader of elegant literature is likely to find occasion for. Such stories and parts of stories as are offensive to pure taste and good morals are not given. But such stories are not often referred to, and if they occasionally should be, the English reader need feel no mortification in confessing his ignorance of them."
How sad is that?
Steve H at June 14, 2010 4:07 PM
"The drive to masturbate is obviously far, far lower in women than men."
Yeah? Who has more toys for that?
SwissArmyD at June 14, 2010 4:25 PM
Most of the problems in marriage come from bait and switch.
I don't think that this is typically deliberate on the part of women. It seems like their sex drive genuinely increases at the beginning, until you become more settled, and then it returns to whatever is normal for them. Mine does, but my normal is always higher than theirs. You just hope that you're sex drives are eventually close enough that it doesn't become an issue.
The women who deliberately bate and switch are the Cosmo super sluts. These are the one's who'll pretend to be highly sexual and adventurous, when they're actually not. They're typically kind of neurotic in bed. It's all a show.
toecutter at June 14, 2010 4:29 PM
""The drive to masturbate is obviously far, far lower in women than men."
Yeah? Who has more toys for that?"
What's that got to do with anything at all? http://www.goaskalice.columbia.edu/1568.html
Lobster at June 14, 2010 5:59 PM
Yeah? Who has more toys for that?
Men come with their toy pre-attached SwissArmyD...although there is the Fleshlight (ewww!)
Ltw at June 15, 2010 1:04 AM
Well, I am a big fan of masturbation and porn (as I blab about here http://blogs.marinij.com/katwilder/2008/02/the_m_word.html and here http://blogs.marinij.com/katwilder/2007/11/whats_wrong_with_porn.html).
The only time I have a problem with them if they are interfering with the relationship and intimacy. But, I'd feel the same way if it were other things — too much Xbox, or golf or drinking or watching mindless TV or eating.
And, you know, if I were a guy, I'd be stroking that thing, too ...
Kat Wilder at June 15, 2010 6:45 AM
"A shower is the place where grown men go to cry"
While men may have their emotional moments, some more than others, and sometimes need emotional support etc., I detest the way it's worded as if to imply that he was speaking on behalf of all men, or as though he was trying to admit some super painful secret that men in general have been keeping. Given it's a third hand account, it could be the doctor twisting the wording though.
Lobster at June 15, 2010 9:06 AM
"And, you know, if I were a guy, I'd be stroking that thing, too"
Multiple times a day if I didn't have things like 'work' to worry about :)
Lobster at June 15, 2010 9:09 AM
"I detest the way it's worded as if to imply that he was speaking on behalf of all men"
Plus he made it sound so ... gay. (jokes)
Lobster at June 15, 2010 9:10 AM
"Men come with their toy pre-attached SwissArmyD" -Ltw
um, yeah, so do women... and theirs is a bit less messy...
That's my point Lobster... those studies are self reported. Just like number of partners, and frequency are self reported. But most also assume that men over report, and women under-report, based on social norms.
Much more to the point, women don't need toys any more than men do, they have them on their hands too. But, women actually BUY toys for this. Wouldn't that seem to indicate they take the need rather seriously, if they are willing to invest money in it?
I'd be much more willing to bet the numbers are actually more or less equal, it's just the stigma attached.
SwissArmyD at June 15, 2010 10:26 AM
Wouldn't that seem to indicate they take the need rather seriously, if they are willing to invest money in it?
Women don't always play with these toys alone.
MonicaP at June 15, 2010 10:49 AM
Ben-David - In my religious Jewish community, men are forbidden to even touch their wives for 10 days out of every month. They somehow manage to get through without "Svetlana and her udders".
Yea, right. I remember back in my college days a friend took a psych class, and the prof asked the class to raise their hands if they masturbated. Nobody did. He then asked them to write it on a piece of paper, fold it, and turn it in, with no name on it. 28 out of 30 wrote yes. The old saw - 90% of people masturbate, and the other 10% are liars.
My wife doesn't want me doing it, because she says it's HER job to take care of me.
William (wbhicks@hotmail.com) at June 15, 2010 11:02 AM
"But most also assume that men over report"
Um, men may over-report number of partners, but not masturbation - they under-report masturbation (for other reasons e.g. religious indoctrination etc.). Men masturbate. Virtually all of them. And A LOT. It's even biologically driven; we get 'full'. I would masturbate multiple times a day if I had the chance (and when on holiday, I do) while not one girlfriend I've had has masturbated more regularly than once a month or so. None of them owned 'toys' either. Men are seriously horny buggers, and to try deny this and pretend that women are equally as horny as men is so absurd and directly in the fact of obvious reality that you might as well be claiming the sky is purple. If women were anywhere near even slightly remotely as horny as men, trust me, we'd all be having sex so much that there would be no civilization/work/economy/Internet etc.
Lobster at June 15, 2010 9:20 PM
"My wife doesn't want me doing it, because she says it's HER job to take care of me."
Sounds like a keeper.
Lobster at June 15, 2010 9:23 PM
SwissArmyD, you out-of-hand dismiss all actual statistical studies as 'inaccurate', but then on what do you base your claim that women masturbate at least as much as men? Thin air? It's not as if SwissArmyD has access to more information on the public's masturbatory habits than anyone else (unless you personally have secret hidden cameras installed in thousands of homes) --- so you are just making it up.
Lobster at June 15, 2010 9:26 PM
I think the studies show that men tend to masturbate more often than women, but the figures are relatively high for both sexes. That is, a slightly smaller majority of women masturbate fairly often, while a larger majority of men do so.
But there are many reasons why women may not masturbate as much as men that don't necessarily mean women are less interested in sex. For one, it could be that masturbation is simply less effective for some women compared to the alternatives (regular intercourse, oral sex, toys etc.). For example, I have seen studies that show just over half of all women are able to orgasm through masturbation. But for men, it would be closer to 100%. It seems obvious that people will do something more if it works for them and seems to yield better results easily.
Nick S at June 16, 2010 5:52 AM
It may be that women are less sexual than men. Although if that is the case, I suspect it is not as strongly the case as some people would believe.
It may also just appear to people that men are more sexual than women, because male and female sexuality is different. That is, men are quicker to respond. But in some ways women are arguably more sexual than men. Women are capable of multiple orgasms, while men are not. And there are many more erogenous zones on the female body than on the male body. Male sexuality is more like just another bodily function. There is a certain amount of fluid to be released, and then you get on with everything else in your life. Whereas female sexuality is like a deeper buried pool that is a little harder to access but is potentially more vast.
There are a growing number of studies that show that women are actually more sexually stimulated by various things than they will perhaps acknowledge or even realize. Such as where the subjects are asked whether or not they are aroused by various images and scenarios, and then they are hooked up to certain equipment to measure their objective responses. Among other things, a higher percentage of women show bisexual tendencies and are aroused by women than will actually admit to being either lesbian or bi.
That confirms what I have gradually come to realize myself: that women are often secretly horny and are perhaps aroused by a lot more things than most men would probably think. I know this is hard for some people to accept, because it often goes against what they have been conditioned to believe all their lives. And it was hard for me to accept for a while too, until I gradually changed my ideas.
Nick S at June 16, 2010 6:31 AM
"That confirms what I have gradually come to realize myself: that women are often secretly horny and are perhaps aroused by a lot more things than most men would probably think"
Oh that I know, and fully agree with. But they still don't come close to men. And they still have far less drive to actually act on horniness in any way than men do. All it takes are some incredibly simple thought experiments to demonstrate this, but it's already been elaborated over and over in this thread by others. If you aren't so horny as to act on it, you aren't as horny as a man who does, simple as that. Women are not as sexual as men, it's really that simple, I don't know why it's so unthinkable to admit such a glaringly obvious thing but I suppose that's the power of indoctrination.
Lobster at June 16, 2010 6:54 AM
Lobster, chill out. I don't have tons of studies to claim, I never said I did. Where are yours, if you are claiming any? However, every girlfriend I've had certainly had them... I tried to make sure they never needed them after. Anecdotes are not data as they say, so studies where you ask people? Might not be as accurate as you are thinking. I have to wonder when we are talking female questions, if we don't need to throw in age components... I wonder how many women we very interested in pleasure when younger, and when older and more settled, not so much. Is their a question of single vs. married? It may well be that over our lives on average that men are mor consistant, I'd buy that. But in their 20-30 do people shag like rabbits? What do you think they do when they can't find a partner? Women will certainly deny it, several of my girlfriends did... for one right until I rearranged the furniture in her dorm room as a gag... When I pulled out all the drawers to move the dresser, there were a number of interesting things in there, which she blushingly denied ever using.
Male and female intersts are different, sure. But women read pr0n rather than view it... are we thinking they might be using batteries to paradise not as often but for longer sessions? That there IS an industry for their toys, but for guys not as much [check your local shop if curious] should tell you that paying customers are to be had. That also tells me that it goes on more often that anyone is willing to admit.
In the long run it doesn't matter much.
SwissArmyD at June 16, 2010 10:34 AM
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