It's a given these days that people's sense of entitlement extends way beyond their personal space and into everyone else's in their vicinity. And when you are compelled to call them on it, they give you the finger, either figuratively or actually.

My favorite(!) example: I was walking my 2 chihuahuas on a busy street in a suburb of L.A., and a woman on a bicycle towing a baby-cart attachment was barrelling toward me on the sidewalk. I'm pretty sure that riding a bike on the sidewalk is illegal. I had no time to get out of her way, and one of my dogs freaked out and somehow managed to pull herself out of her collar, then ran straight into the street. Dropping everything, including the leash of my other dog, I followed her into oncoming traffic, cars screeching all around me, and luckily got a hold of her before any harm was done. Bicycle woman had stopped and was watching me. I told her that she should be more careful. Her words to me, before riding off? "You saw me coming."

You know, it's not that hard to teach kids manners. My 2 year old boy picks up his toys and puts them in the baskets, he knows where to put trash, he uses a napkin, and he says please and thank you.

Next time give her a choice - I can yell at your kid to shut the fuck up thus causing them to cry or I can ask you politely to see if you can quite the kid down. Choose!

Maybe it's not worth it to worry about setting off their defensiveness, Amy. By the simple fact that they let their kid misbehave in public they have, in my opinion, left themselves open for being corrected in public by responsible adults.

Robert:
they have, in my opinion, left themselves open for being corrected in public
- - - - - - - - - - -
... or identified themselves as narcissists, who will be insulted by any-n-all social cues that they don't ignore. So go for it...

Marina

You are absolutely right. I ride a bicycle quite a lot, and I hate seeing bicyclists on the sidewalk. Bicycles are traffic. The belong on the road and must follow basically the same rules as any other vehicles.

It's actually dangerous to ride on the sidewalk. I nearly ran over a kid the other day: he was riding on the sidewalk, and sped from behind a bunch of bushes into a pedestrian crossing, right in front of my car. A real pedestrian, or even a jogger, would have been moving much more slowly, and I would have seen them coming in plenty of time.

Christ! My kid is autistic and he doesn't get to behave like that in public! Whenever he gets disruptive, if I'm not able to quiet him, I pack up and we LEAVE. Jeez.

If there is ever a time he is doing something annoying and I don't notice it (because it's, I dunno, part of the background noise of my day-to-day existence), I certainly would never mind it if someone asked me to redirect him. Normally, though, I'm always the one walking on eggshells, asking people if he's bothering them, whereas they're all, "No, no, he's charming!" But I will always ask, because I'd rather make sure than have people suffering in silence.

These days, I think the most annoying thing he does in public is talk like the characters from British comedies-- and, well, I'm doing it with him. :D

Let's examine this. You asked quietly and politely, and one cannot reasonably argue with someone who is being quiet and polite. In addition, your point was valid. She was effectively cornered, knew it, and had no escape route other than passive aggressive B.S.

Her kid is gonna be a real piece of work when it gets bigger. Not "grows up" or "matures", because that won't happen very easily.

Of course it wasn't OK for you to ask her that! You called her on her kid's inappropriate behavior and made her feel bad about herself! How dare you?

It's called disturbing the peace and clueless parents don't know how to parent anymore.

Therefore the rest of us have to be subjected to these disruptions in our everyday lives.

I go with The Stare™.

Works every time. Sometimes the parents will turn around to see why the kid shut up, and see you, and get all defensive. Stare at them and they back off real quick-like.

I sit there and look at the kid adoringly, with a creepy grin on my face.

Sometimes they leave skid marks.

It's not that hard. Simply remove the child from the environment if they become disruptive. I did it dozens of times with my children, sometimes even after having ordered my food or paid for the ticket or settled in or gotten my drinks.

Somehow, they, and we, survived.

The belong on the road and must follow basically the same rules as any other vehicles.

Sorry, but in my experience the typical bicyclist - particularly the ones decked out like they're training for the Tour de Lance - have the same me-me-me mindset that Amy described in this post.

Blowing through red lights/stop signs? check. Riding two or three abreast in a lane (against the law in Florida)? check. Riding slowly on our teeny-tiny, windy canopy roads with higher speed limits and reduced sight lines? check, check, check.

I nearly got into a head-on collision with another motorist because of that last one, as she came into my lane to avoid crushing a couple of bicyclists who where putzing along, side-by-side. Thank you, Ford, for the good braking power.

Not to pick on women, but this is definitely mommy behavior. I rarely see fathers letting their kids go off like that.

The part that wasn't ok was saying it to the mom. The kid was probably banging looking for attention, because like dogs, kids think bad attention is no attention at all. So next time, comment directly to the kid, who will be shocked like Wow! An adult that isn't ignoring me! And will probably smile & be happy to please you.

Of course all kids at some point have been disruptive in public places. But that is where the parent is supposed to step in and correct the disruptive behavior or leave. So it is not surprising that a mother who allows her child to bang a cup on a table for a period of time would think anyone asking the child to stop is rude. I wouldn't be surprised if her friend used her "nice" voice while telling you it was, "not ok." They would never think of using their "nice" voice to tell little Tommy that banging a cup on the table is probably annoying to people. And as Melissa G states, sometimes moms get used to certain noises because it does become our backround noise during the day, but if someone brings it to my attention should I slip up and not realize, I would immediately apologize and correct the situation, though I did always lean more towards being on top of any kind of behavior exhibited by my kids in public.

Oh, I can combine both the entitlement parental units AND the bike trail in one bitch. :D

I was on the bike trail. Here it's marked like a road, with lanes, no passing zones, etc. CLEARLY marked out.

There's an underpass under a main road that has a concrete wall on one side and a nice little rocky area leading to a stream on the other. This supermommy had three kids, two probably between 4-6 and one in her SUV stroller.

She decided to stop and allow the older ones to climb on the rocks and play in the water, which would be no big deal BUT...

...she parks said stroller RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE FUCKING BIKE LANE.

Now, this particular underpass, in the direction I'm going (she's blocking my lane, the stream side) curves up a hill and off to one side, so you can't see who is coming at you until they're practically in your face.

Supermommy sees me coming from SEVERAL yards away and all I get is the deer in the headlights look. No effort to move, nothing. At the same time, there are several kids on skateboards (who's parents apparently taught them correct trail usage, yay!) coming in the other direction. She looks at them, looks at me, and DOES NOTHING. Apparently I was supposed to stop and wait for her precious spawn to finish playing so I could finish my ride.

When I finally got the opportunity to pass her, I just shook my head and said (and not in a NICE tone of voice) "REALLY bad place to stop."

I'm pretty sure that was totally lost on her. GRRRRRRR

Not to pick on women, but this is definitely mommy behavior. I rarely see fathers letting their kids go off like that.

I'm often amazed at the noise that mothers don't even seem to hear. It's like they've become desensitized to anything softer than a bomb going off.

If my friend's daughter is any example to go by, she zones out. When she's watching television, everything else stops existing.

I've picked my kids up and left a (pretty expensive) breakfast with Santa when their behavior was unacceptable. Let alone lesser places. It makes an impression, although generally if they're acting unacceptably, it's because they're overtired, which is my fault as a mom at this young age. So no punishment, just home to nap!

Crap just saw an error...

Bad attention is better than no attention at all.

Regarding bikes: I don't drive. Mostly I walk. You see a lot that way, and my main observation is that a bad bicyclist is a bad driver is a bad pedestrian. That "I own the road" attitude doesn't ever go away.

Regarding this being Mommy behavior: You could be right, but "Daddy" is less and less in the picture. I know raising kids alone is hard, which is one of the reasons a two parent family is desirable. (Whether it's two mommies, two daddies, or one of each. It's a kid's first opportunity to see cooperation and sharing responsibility at work. If the two parents do it right, of course.)

And by the way, there's nothing wrong with a little shame, either. Or a little guilt. You don't have to browbeat a kid in order to let them know that the reason you left the restaurant, grocery store, whatever, was due to their bad behavior. If they feel bad about it, good!

I hold my breath every time you post one of these experiences, Amy. Call me an alarmist, but I worry about your safety...in these "benign" public places.
You can laugh, but I do worry. Maybe I'm a big chicken.

Common sense isn't common any longer.

When my son was little, he was mostly very well behaved in restaurants and the like. I tried to be aware of when he was getting tired (kids can't actually handle as much shopping and stuff as adults, believe it or not), but sometimes I would forget, and he'd get out of hand.

I'd try soothing him with a toy or playing with him, but if that didn't see pretty immediate results, off we went. I was always with my mom, so she'd pay for the meal, have it boxed up and what have you while I was outside with the kid, so that his fussing wouldn't disturb other people. I suppose if I had been alone, I would have asked the waitress to box the stuff up and bring me the check outside. I'll be they'd have done it too.

It's not rocket science.

I'm also very proud, btw, that to this day, he's very polite to wait-staff, saying please and thank you, and calling them sir or ma'm. That's m'boy.

Regarding this being Mommy behavior: You could be right, but "Daddy" is less and less in the picture. I know raising kids alone is hard, which is one of the reasons a two parent family is desirable. (Whether it's two mommies, two daddies, or one of each. It's a kid's first opportunity to see cooperation and sharing responsibility at work. If the two parents do it right, of course.)

Pricklypear, its been my experience that its usually the moms who are married and have a little money that exhibit this behavior. They take a lot of parenting classes about how every word and action will adversely affect their kids entire future and they use their "indoor" and "outdoor" voices and never correct the kid at all because that would be "dampening his spirit and creativity." I wouldn't say this is a problem to be blamed on single moms. This is a problem with people who think they are entitled and who no respect for anyone else but themselves. And again, most of the moms I see that are guilty of this are pulling up in their expensive cars, wearing their bling over their Juicy sweat suits meeting their equally blinged out friends in between their Mommy and Me classes, pianos for tots classes, and Baby Mozart classes.

Again, from alt.support.childfree's "Gutterboy":

"If you don't want my opinion on how to raise your children, do not allow your children to behave in a manner that elicits my opinion."

*****So next time, comment directly to the kid, who will be shocked like Wow! An adult that isn't ignoring me! And will probably smile & be happy to please you.*****

Oh, HELL NO! That's a great way to start a screaming match in the middle of a restaurant.

Anyone ignoring their kids to this level (and yeah, I've seen dads to it too, although not as much, probably because they're not out with the kids as often) is NOT going to take kindly to you pointing that out. ESPECIALLY if you address their little precious directly. You're going to get "HOW DARE YOU SPEAK TO MY CHILD" at an ear-splitting volume that can be heard in space. Trust me.

And, The Stare only works for me about 10% of the time. Now, I KNOW I'm good at it, because when it does work it works spectacularly well. However. 90% of these kids have NO CONCEPT of why you're giving them "the look". They have literally never seen it before. They think you are playing at making faces at them and they just get worse.

Of course, I live in a VERY kid-centric town, so YMMV.

Folks who react like those described above miss a very valuable opportunity. When another adult politely requests a child to behave properly, they reinforce the behavior that hopefully the parents would like to see.

The effect that these little interventions had on my daughter when she was very young were profound.

All of a sudden, my arbitrary rules had been given the stamp of authenticity. There is nothing I could ever have done that would have been as effective as having had my rules of behavior confirmed by a complete stranger.

Kristen, if you look back, you'll see I am responding to Norm's post "Not to pick on women, but this is definitely mommy behavior. I rarely see fathers letting their kids go off like that."

I am not blaming single moms. I know an uninterested husband or boyfriend can just to the load, not lighten it. As you said "This is a problem with people who think they are entitled and who (have) no respect for anyone else but themselves."

Unfortunately, a lot of the people you're talking about are, I'm afraid, single moms. They might be the more affluent "a woman doesn't need a man to have a baby" types, or the Jerry Springer "You don't know me!" types.

Or they might be like a lot of women I went to school with, who just ended up with children and no father figure, and a whole lot of stress. I spent a lot of time helping these women with their kids, and they contributed to my decision not to have any.

This is a side point, but what is with folks bringing their children to places where they obviously don't belong, yet also not bring anything for the child to do. Whenever I go to a "non-kid friendly" place, I always bring a slew of things that my kid can do (that does require him to be loud or get out of his chair). Things include: Coloring books, crayons, colored pencils, plain white paper, and whatever else that he takes interest in. He has a backpack full of the stuff, I never empty the backpack and it doesn't take any time to get him ready to go.

I have this problem with the choir (which I may not be a part of for much longer). Several parents bring their children, but never anything for them to do. Then proceed to spend the two hours trying to calm down, quiet and discipline their children (because they're bored). It's a lot of disruptions in the two hour rehearsal. By the time it's over, I'm ready to run out. I've brought my son ONCE. I had to not bring him because all of the other kids wanted to play with his stuff, but then their parents didn't make sure they helped clean it up.

If we are out, and his behavior becomes annoying (I don't tune out), I redirect him back to his things. If he still doesn't behave, we leave. No fights, no yelling, no screaming (from me or my child). And I expect him to behave the same way whether or not I'm around.

Nikki G, could you please move to my town? Maybe you could lead by example. :D

I think the main problem is that the people who a) bring kids where they don't belong (mommy with the toddler in the bar, I'm looking at YOU) and b) ignore their crappy behavior are the ones who think that their lives should not change one iota because they've reproduced.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Your life changes 100% after having a kid - it's not (supposed) to be about you anymore. Sadly, these entitlement-minded assholes don't get that, and the rest of us have to suffer for it.

And the next bad parent who tells me I don't know how haaard it is is going to get a knuckle sandwich. I SEE how hard it is, I'm not fucking deaf, dumb and blind. Why do you think I don't have a kid? I have neither the patience nor the desire to be #2 in my own life, so I choose to remain childless. So STFU and get your kid out of my bar.

Unfortunately, a lot of the people you're talking about are, I'm afraid, single moms. They might be the more affluent "a woman doesn't need a man to have a baby" types, or the Jerry Springer "You don't know me!" types.

Again, these women are not single moms. Many of them that I see and know have husbands with jobs on Wall Street, or some other white collar job. The women live in huge homes, drive very expensive cars that they change out every other year. Not a harsh word can ever be said to or in front of their precious child because that's what they learned in their expensive parenting classes and books and they are always the ones that are the worst behaved kids.

You're right, Ann. So are you, Nikki G. It's been a while, but I remember my folks at least had paper and pencils so we could draw.

I knew when I was thirteen that I didn't want any kids. In large part that was due to how tired my mom was when she came home from work and then had to listen to us. My dad worked nights and slept days, and my grandma looked after us til my sister was old enough to hold down the fort. So when Mom came there was almost always a litany of complaints.

Once I asked my mom why she was so tired since she had an office job. I'll never forget the look she gave me! I was too young to appreciate how exhausting an office job can be (even when it's not followed up by "Mommm, SHE...etc). Now I know.

Well, Kristen, what can I say? On the one hand, these couples you mentioned have that two-party backup. On the other hand, they are apparently all doing it WRONG.

If anyone reading this stuff has children of their own, I hope they're getting something out of it and trying to set a good example. To those who don't (or are raising their kids to respect other people) I guess we can sing a chorus of Thank God They Aren't Mine, and go on with our lives.

>>They take a lot of parenting classes about how every word and action will adversely affect their kids entire future and they use their "indoor" and "outdoor" voices and never correct the kid at all because that would be "dampening his spirit and creativity." I wouldn't say this is a problem to be blamed on single moms. This is a problem with people who think they are entitled and who no respect for anyone else but themselves. And again, most of the moms I see that are guilty of this are pulling up in their expensive cars, wearing their bling over their Juicy sweat suits meeting their equally blinged out friends in between their Mommy and Me classes, pianos for tots classes, and Baby Mozart classes.

AMEN!!

As for moms vs. dads on the subject, as someone who gets to see a lot of parental interaction with kids, I can say that some dads are just as guilty, but not as often. No, the big parenting offense with dads is what I call "Helpless Dad Syndrome". The one who honestly has this look of near-panic and cannot seem to interfere in the chaos their child creates. He watches, confused, as the kids do whatever they like, and when he tries to exert some power and is promptly ignored. In desperation, he turns all his senses off to focus on his assignment (getting books/movies for the kids or working on his laptop), and decides that the kid can't do any *real* harm (other than destroy my library shelf by shelf).

The other day, a child ran away from his father TWICE (out of the room and to the front door of the library once, and into the ladies' bathroom the second time), and he didn't notice either time. Thank goodness for Good Samaritans!

[This post is not saying that all dads act this way, only that while the overly protective/defensive/parenting class mommy is the most common problem mom, the most problem kind of dad is this one. In my experience.]

By the by, where's Crid?

Crid was too smart to get into this particular clusterfuck. So far, anyway.

Lol, I was wondering where Crid was lurking too!!!

Some people just should not breed.

> too smart to get into this particular clusterfuck.

Watch your tongue, young lady.

It's just that we've all been through this one this one, and principles are powerless in the face of witless audacity. I get a new encounter like that every year or so, one where the person is so self-assured and fucked in the head that they're out the door before the words appear— L'esprit de l'escalier. This probably happens to everyone. This probably happens to Rahm Emmanuel.

But as regards kids, specifically, I don't like 'em. Didn't enjoy being one, never wanted any of my own. It's not a deep hatred, I just don't think they're cute for more than a few seconds and take no fascination from their development. I've quoted it before, but in 1990 a man named Paul Rudnick from Spy Magazine wrote a great piece about childhood, and listed the adult pleasures as complexity, sex, conversation and tailoring. (The violation Amy suffered in the coffeehouse sounds most like #3 on this list, even if the thoughts the child interrupted were her own.)

Childhood is not a utopia but a holding pen; the good stuff comes later, when you're ready, when you've earned it. Children look abysmal in evening clothes and are problematic in theaters, restaurants and concert halls; as a rule, children are useless after 4:00 p.m.

And later, he says:

Big eyes must be rolled.

I tried watching my tongue, Crid. It's very distracting.

"Childhood is not a utopia but a holding pen; the good stuff comes later, when you're ready, when you've earned it."

That is just wonderful. First, it puts me in mind of Ray Bradbury's story The Playground. Second, it's kind of what I've told a couple of teenagers I know regarding the hell that is high school.

You did the right thing, but I have a little sympathy for the mom. My son is right at the age where he's acting up, and while we can often sidetrack him from having a tantrum, it's not always possible. With this behavior, I can see myself getting acclimitized to his tantrums so that I don't notice one right away. If someone came up to me and politely asked me to stop my child from acting up, I'd feel guilty that I hadn't already done it, and so subconsciously might try to deflect it back onto the person who approached me.

Having said that, I can't imagine letting him bang a cup on a table for a couple of minutes, much less in a public place.

I've seen a married mother and a single mother use the same technique on their kids and it worked (badly) the same way. The "nicey nice" voice telling the kid "don't do that". Kids instinctively ignore that voice. Tell the kid once, firmly, then if they keep it up, do something about it. Pick the kid up, take away the spoon, whatever. Nicey nice people talk sweet for a while and after being ignored start yelling/shrieking at the kid.

I don't have kids, but I worked in a day care center, where the only punishment was a time out (there was a verbal warning first), but it worked very well because the rules were simple but consistent. The kids rarely broke the rules once they knew that the rules would always be (gently) enforced. They'd even tell new kids not to do stuff that was against the rules.

Regarding that last comment from KrisL:

Time for Dr. Rosemond again. Quote:

"The only punishment that 'fits the crime' is the punishment that stops the behavior from recurring."

In other words, better to be a bit too harsh than a bit too lenient. Yes, consistency helps too.

I yelled at a neighbor boy a few years ago for making too much noise. He came back a few minutes later with his mother who yelled at me for telling her son to quiet down.

That sounding normal is odd enough, but how does it sound when I add the fact that the boy was 21 years old?

I think it's about a lack of community. When I was a kid in the '60s and '70s, any adult in the neighborhood felt free to correct my actions with a harsh word. But back then I knew all the adults in the neighborhood. They all knew each other too.