It's all about context, which we don't exactly have here. How often is "a lot", and how loudly was the kid speaking?

It is entirely possible that the other person was being an impossible fusspot, just looking for something - anything - to complain about.

It's often said on this blog that men should be allowed to do what they are naturally inclined to do: want more than one partner, having attractive partners for mating potential, etc.

Aren't children, when repeating words and actions doing what they are naturally inclined to do? It's part of normal develpoment to say and do things over and over.

A parent can't be expected to keep their child quiet 100% of the time. It can't also be expected that they avoid all public appearances outside of Chucky Cheese and Walmart because their child may have the potential to annoy someone for just being a kid.

According to the lady who tweeted (?), the only thing her child was doing to annoy was say his dad's name over and over. Maybe Papa was not paying attention. Also agree with bradley13, one person's 'a lot' could be different to someone else's and the phone lady could have been looking for any excuse to complain about a child being on the same flight. I've been guilty myself of getting annoyed at something that normally wouldn't bother another.

Of course, Tweet lady could have just dropped it. It's not like anyone was getting hurt by someone bitching about her kid. To me it just sounded like she needed to attention whore herself at her son's expense.

I've been on planes and heard kids crying and doing annoying things. There are times I can tune it out and times I can't. Yes, the parents should quell it, but I think its just as rude to sit and talk about someone or their kid as though they aren't sitting right there. That person yammering on the cell was out of line. And considering that the dad was described as CIVIL in the tweet, I'd assume that he was at least apologetic about the kid's noise. Sometimes it would be nice if we all learned to be a little more tolerant and patient. I don't know that I'd put a kid banging a cup on the table over and over with a kid saying papa papa over and over. The banging cup can be removed. On a plane, there's only so much you can do.

Kids talk. SO do adults. If all he was doing was saying "papa", then yes the lady was a bitch. There is no right or even expectation of not having to HEAR a kid talk, anywhere, ever, at any age.

We could confine them to their homes until they are 18. Make that 21 if we raise the voting age to what it used to be.

Remember, they are the ones who will take care of us in our old age. No grudges, I'm fairly sure they won't spit in your soup. They won't have this problem, by the way, because many of them will be deaf from their earphones. They won't even hear their kids. Well, I'll be beyond hearing them by then too unless Obamacare is way better than I expect.

How is it that my generation was perfect? Or did the sort of adults who survived the battle of Okinawa or the bombing of Hiroshima realize that a living, fussy kid was not the worst thing?

That would be my Uncle Jack, and my mother-in-law.

People who are easily irritated by things like this should get an iPod. Problem solved. It reminds me of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buTrsK_ZkvA

Some people just like to complain. I have sympathy for both sides though, because I find my own kids' tendency to repeat things annoying and will tell them to knock it off.

I like what MarkD said about our generation being perfect. Kids are very different than when I was younger. There were certain things I never would have done and there did seem to be better manners. I don't want to say respect because I don't think its always a matter of respect. We forget though about temper tantrums and bad behavior as our kids get older. My kids didn't throw tantrums but my boys were always getting into wrestling matches that could wreck a house. Obviously I wouldn't allow that in public nor would I let them wreck the house. I sent them in the yard and let them roll around outside. My daughter who is only 12 laughs at how nobody plays outside anymore. Parents think that their kids should be everywhere and I think that's what's going on now. Parents have the expectation that certain bad behavior is a normal milestone and that everyone should have to be subjected to it. Its not that we were perfect kids because we definitely weren't. Its just that there was a different societal expectation of what was expected in public. I'm glad that its relaxed somewhat and that there is a lot more child friendly attitudes, but the bad parents are the ones that ruin that for the rest.

I can sympathize with both people. That kind of repetition really is annoying, and I'd have a hard time with it, too.

On the other hand: Bitching into your phone about it so the parents can hear you is childish. Especially since I'm assuming she was talking on the phone when the flight was over, as some kind of parting shot. If the kid was speaking at an acceptable volume, well, sometimes people are just annoying.

You don't know exactly what happened; maybe the kid was being a brat, maybe the woman was just looking for an excuse to be annoyed. It was still rude of her to talk about them like they were not even there. I however think you were a little rude here yourself. You tweeted a woman from what I understand you don't know, and scolded her when you don't know the whole story. You then wrote about it on your blog. I find that a little rude...

Kendra: "It's often said on this blog that men should be allowed to do what they are naturally inclined to do: want more than one partner, having attractive partners for mating potential, etc."

I've never gotten that from this blog. That they should be *allowed* to. The idea of gotten from Amy is that women should understand this biological imperative and confront it. TALK about your ideas for monogamy and lay down ground rules. Think realistically about your man's actions and speech before you go committing your entire lives and beings to each other. And as for attractiveness, we can't help the way we're born, but we can help the way we look. If you want a man (or to keep your man), you need to make an effort to appeal to him by staying fit, dressing nice and etc.

I mean, Amy's not saying that Plain Janes (and those who are just flat-out unattractive) should just stay out of the dating game because it's hopeless, she's just advising ways to maximize your potential. And I've always gotten that she understands the desire for monogamy, but that you should discuss it with your partner rather than assume it.

Nothing in there about saying "that's the way things should be!" Just understand why behavior is the way it is and work with it.

I imagine I'll be corrected if I've misinterpreted her stance.

Twitter is a public thing. If you're going to put something out there, the whole world is free to comment on it.

It may be public, but if you posted a picture of you in a dress, and I happened upon it, would it not be rude of me to comment on it and insult you, then blog about it?

I don't see where Amy insulted her. A negative comment is not an insult.

I never said she insulted her. I said it was a little rude and that Amy basicly scolded her, a stranger when she may not have the full picture, but I never said she insulted her. My example I gave you was just that. A example.

You implied it here.

would it not be rude of me to comment on it and insult you, then blog about it?

At any rate, things posted on Twitter are fair game for commentary as long as that commentary is not abusive, which this wasn't. If people don't want the input of strangers, they should avoid posting things on a public forum.

Input is one thing, but blogging about it is another.

Typo Fix
*basicly=basically

Why is blogging about it different?

They're both public forums. Once you've put something out there, you have given up control over it. I tweet new entries to my blog. Sometimes people talk about my blog entries on their own blog. I have no say in the matter, since I've put it out there.

There's no sacred space on the Internet.

Regardless of how bad the kids behavior was/wasn't, this was all the way entitlemommy telling the world how tough she is and how NO ONE TALKS ABOUT MY CHILD THAT WAY. Which, generally, means the kid is probably a total brat, because NORMAL parents don't feel the need to get on Twitter when someone talks about their kid's behavior and insinuate that they'll go all medieval on the person's ass.

I suspect the apple didn't fall too far from the tree here.

And Kali? You post it online, you're fair game. If you don't want people talking shit about you, don't put it on the 'net. 'Dem's da rules.

Everyone twitters their thoughts and daily occurrences (at least, everyone on twitter). That she did does NOT mean she's an entitled mommy. Any more than Amy's entitlednonmommy for blogging here.

I lean towards what Kali's saying. Amy doesn't follow this woman's Twitter. She was directed to it and then felt the need to correct the mother. Yes, the mother put it out in public but more as a frustrated, "ugh, I wouldn't have been so nice to that lady on the phone." I wouldn't have jumped to the conclusion that she was entitled or saying her kid could behave badly. I'd be annoyed if someone had a phone conversation about me when I was just sitting there too. Again, that person on the phone is an adult and behaving rudely. The person on the phone could have handled that better and didn't.

Oh, I definitely think the woman on the phone was a jerk. There's no indication that she even asked the mother to quiet her child, so complaining on the phone after the fact makes her a tool.

But I have no problem with sending negative comments to people who post their thoughts on public forums. Think of Twitter as a giant online bulletin board. If you're looking for sympathetic pats, tell it to your close friends over coffee.

Aren't children, when repeating words and actions doing what they are naturally inclined to do? It's part of normal develpoment to say and do things over and over.

Great! He can say it over and over in the privacy of their home, and when he's ready to travel without doing that, or when the dad is sensitive to the fact that other people may not want to hear a constant stream of repetition and acts accordingly, bring him on a plane.

Kendra also writes: "It's often said on this blog that men should be allowed to do what they are naturally inclined to do: want more than one partner, having attractive partners for mating potential, etc."

Beyond the underlying resentment of men I think I'm picking up there, I don't think you get my take on things. It's that we need to understand our biology, and relate accordingly. You can want six partners, but if you marry somebody, you'd better be prepared to have just one.

Men want attractive women; women tend to want men who show they are providers. So, if you're a woman, look attractive and if you're a man, don't be unemployed, or you're going to have a harder time finding a partner.

As for the person who suggests that the solution is wearing an iPod...what if you want to have a quiet conversation with the adult you're flying with?

Mommy-mommy-mommy-mommy-mommy...! is annoying, same as a kid banging a plastic cup on a tray table for a good part of a fourteen hour flight, as once happened to me. Parents: "He's just a boy."

He should have been just a boy with parents to make him stop or just a boy back in his home in wherever until he could fly according to the same standards we expect of adults. If an adult were banging his cup on my tray table for much of a long flight, we'd find it to be abuse, and he'd be stopped (and maybe taken away in handcuffs at the end). It's a parent's job to moderate behavior, and to THINK OF THE OTHER PASSENGERS.

Let's see, is "Papa-papa-papa-papa!" a sound that is like Mozart to all the other passengers, or might some of them be ANNOYED? Clearly at least one was. I'm guessing more were, too. People don't usually express it.

Thank you Kristen. That was a large part of the point I was trying to make.

When a child repeats "papa papa papa" so much that it annoys the people around them, then it is the parent's fault for ignoring their child. Clearly the child wanted their father's attention and was not getting it. Even if a parent is in the middle of a conversation or task that involves concentration, they can certainly take a second to acknowledge their child and tell it that they will pay attention to them in a moment but first they will finish what they are doing.

I would like to point out that when a child is repeatedly requesting their parent's attention each 'papa' is louder than the last so yes it is annoying. And really, what else is the father doing on the flight that he cannot entertain his child for a few hours.

I am the parent of a five year old and never has my child behaved in a manner that was obnoxious and intrusive to others. Why? Because I cut any inappropriate/annoying behaviour in the bud, I pay attention to her when we are flying or in a restaurant, and because we discuss manners and behaviour and how a person's actions affect others.

You looked at some strange lady's twitter account, and then stuck your nose into her affairs?

Alkon, give it up: Have a baby and shut up.

Your sniveling about children is turning into a bitter harvest harvest of sour grapes.

PS Those who don't want the public to see their Twitter feeds put a lock on them and make them invite only.

>Ingrid has it exactly right.

Not necessarily. If the child is between 1-2 years old, he is probably just acquiring language. He may not be specifically asking for his papa, but just repeating those sounds because they are the first sounds babies learn to make.

If he's 15, the kid or parents are a-holes. But if he's 18-months, there's not much the parents could do about it -- you can't even really "quell" them at that age. You can say "then don't take them on public transport" but that may just not be practical -- we don't have a great train system with private rail cars in this country anymore, especially out West. Besides, it's "public" transport -- some of the public (like toddlers) are annoying.

Oy vey.

Because 140 characters hardly gives a full picture, just to clarify a few details: the kid is three, is still in the developmental heavy repetition phase, and was certainly not ignored by his parent. He otherwise sat still and was especially well-behaved during the whole cross-country flight. As for the "him and his every word just so ultra cute and special to you" isn't exactly true. In fact, it's often quite the exact opposite and he can extra annoying -- to me. I don't enjoy screaming or rambunctious kids on planes. Especially if it's my own! BTW in any situation, if any of my kids are disturbing other people I'm nothing but apologetic and proactive about managing the situation best as I can. I never take the "they're just kids!" attitude and therefore relax and standards and boundaries.

Yet passive aggressive adults are also vexing; if the woman was truly bothered, she should have said something DURING the flight. That said, that notion of being able to "quell" behavior is easier said than done.

Just had a similar incident occur to me. Dh and I went out for a nice meal without the kid and who ruined it for us...3 loud talking, middle aged harpies who should have known better. They spoke so loudly that we couldn't hear each other. People today are just rude... No, I don't want to hear how your dd is having trouble finding acting work even after four years of Theater Arts and how you are just finding out that, that degree didn't come with a money back guarantee. The kid may as well have been there banging on a sippy cup at 25 years old bc her mother was just as a annoying.

NO, a kid getting 100% of his parents attention at that age still repeats things over and over and over. It's how one (even YOU) acquires language.

If the best you can be is passive-aggressive (like the woman on the phone) then your feelings really just don't matter.

If the child is between 1-2 years old, he is probably just acquiring language. He may not be specifically asking for his papa, but just repeating those sounds because they are the first sounds babies learn to make.

But if he's 18-months, there's not much the parents could do about it -- you can't even really "quell" them at that age.
------
I stand by my original post. No matter what the child's age or even the child's intent (attention seeking or babbling), if he had received attention from his father he would have been distracted from continuing the behaviour - even if the child is only 18 months old.

There is a big difference between babbling, which is cute, and repeatedly calling for papa, which is annoying. Babbling generally involves lots of different sounds, not the same word repeated ad nauseam.

if the woman was truly bothered, she should have said something DURING the flight.

Why do other people have to instruct you to parent?

Chances are, she wasn't the only person who was bothered; just the one your husband heard sounding off about it.

Oh, and here's how many parents (or rather "parents," because parenting doesn't seem a big priority) react when you ask them very nicely to, you know, parent:

http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/08/12/that_is_not_oka.html

As I wrote in my book, I thought I could fly when I was eight, but the idea that I could ever be loud in a restaurant or kick the back of your chair in a movie theater did not exist for me in what was possible in the known universe.

Welcome to the lost art of parenting.

Amy wrote: Why do other people have to instruct you to parent?

Sometimes, Amy, it's not instructing someone in parenting but pointing out what might not be an obvious annoyance.

My girl is beyond well-behaved but right now we're working on her not invading other people's space accidentally. She's just so happy to be growing up and so girl gangly/twirly ballerina and curious that I don't think she recognizes when she's bounced too close at the grocery cash register or ATM. I appreciate every time someone -- especially a polite teenager -- turns to her and nicely says, "Excuse me, please," which encourages her to step back a bit.

I don't think that means I'm failing as a parent.

>Welcome to the lost art of parenting.

Which you really can't speak authoritatively on until you've done it.

I'm sure you were occasionally annoying when you were 1-2. All babies are. You can't reason with them any more than you can reason with a cat, who are about their intellectual equals.

I have a 3-month old. I live in L.A., my parents (and aunts, uncles, cousins) live in Florida. For practical reasons, I am going to have to take her to Fla to meet the fam in the next couple of years. Taking a car is not an option. So she'll be getting on a plane long before it's possible for her to grok the concept of inconveniencing other people by her babyness. Do you have an alternative that would inconvenience others less? For that matter, do you feel it's rude to bring a baby on the bus?

Which you really can't speak authoritatively on until you've done it. - franko

I wondered how long until someone pulled out that load of shit.

Does this mean only gay people can talk about gay marrige?
Or only those who have served in the military are allwed to talk about the wars?
I know how about onlhy those that have gone to jail are allowed to speak about the criminal justice systym.

franko, while it may be true that a non parent has no clue on how to raise kids(maybe this attitude is why so many parents no longer use babysitters) that doesnt mean we can figure it out when you are doing it wrong.

Case in point I dont know shit about auto repair - but sholud my engine block ever burst into flames I'm pretty sure I'd be justified in telling people my mechanic is a bad one - even though I myself am not a mechanic

*****Welcome to the lost art of parenting. Which you really can't speak authoritatively on until you've done it. *****

I don't need to walk a mile in your shoes to know your laces are untied.

And Amy's right. Get Skype or let the relatives visit you until the kid is old enough to behave on a plane. The airlines do fly both ways, you know.

P.S. Having squeezed a child out your coochie doesn't make you a parenting expert.

Unfortunately that's how it is in society. Many "parents" think they're real superior to non-breeders.

I wonder how many parents don't realize that they are teachers?

I'm re-reading some Terry Pratchett books, and came upon this wonderful paragraph in a scene about a governess teaching her young charge about some military campaigns:

.."which were suitably bloodthirsty, but more importantly, considered too difficult for a child. As a result, his vocabulary was doubling every week.." "After all, what was the point of teaching children to be children? They were naturally good at it."

Reminds me of how many words I learned from the old Warner Brothers cartoons. Indubitably, despicable, etc. Of course, they weren't originally meant for children either.

Back to the topic--your kids are going to become adults eventually, if they live long enough. It's parents who set them on the path of what kind of adult they will be (whether or not they realize it).

Screaming kids on a plane is not okay. Under parenting parents are annoying. I am not sure how loud the "papa, papa" was, but I think all things considered - I'd probably chosen not to pick this battle. While "papa, papa" can get annoying - it is not nearly in the same realm as a screaming child.

This lady on the cell probably (not knowing, again, how loud the kid was) would have drawn my much more of my ire considering she was 1) an ADULT on a cell phone in a close and confined quarters 2) an ADULT being childishly passive-aggressive. Pass/Agg's are probably a bigger pet peeve for me than cooing or even crying kids.

If I had to take a tally of the bad flights I've been on, I'd say screaming children or misbehaved children make up a very small percentage. The majority of unpleasant situations I've encountered on flights were the result of inconsiderate, childish, smelly, fat, drunk, boundary-less or loud assholes who apparently never got our of their self-centered stage of development - who are themselves grown children. I'd have a tough time picking one of these beauts over a crying infant.

If someone has a loud kid, I would be sure to be as pleasant as possible with my message but I probably would say something. Somethings, in the interest of my own sanity I would probably try to let go of - like "papa, papa" if it wasn't at the top of the kids lungs.

But that is just me.

How is it that my generation was perfect? Or did the sort of adults who survived the battle of Okinawa or the bombing of Hiroshima realize that a living, fussy kid was not the worst thing?

I was raised by parents of that generation. They didn't permit me to be a snot-nosed brat. If I misbehaved in school, and Sister had to give me the paddle, I got an earful. First mom would lay into me, then papa when he got home. I don't remember my first brush with such authority, but I've been told that the first time my father had to take me out of church 'cause I was raising a ruckus was also the last time I had to be taken out of church.

It didn't take me very long to figure out what was worth throwing a hissy fit over, and when it was more beneficial to sit very still, and very quietly.

That is very useful, as I've learned to use that time to meditate. Like when I'm dining out, and the next table over has young children, and they're being obnoxious, making a mess and generally behaving like snot-nosed brats. I meditate. It keeps me from...doing something rash.

After all, what was the point of teaching children to be children?

Childhood is simply dress rehearsal for adulthood.

"Childhood is simply dress rehearsal for adulthood."

IMHO, the more age appropriate the child is allowed to behave (not in public, and not at the inconvenience of others) the less likely they are to act like large children later on - because they got the opportunity to act like children when they were children. I think forcing kids to act like adults is creepy. Guiding them out of the various stages of childhood is what a good parent does - and that is about knowing where they should be at what stage of development.

This also means that in the interest of what's best for their children, parents will have to sacrifice things like nice restaurants, movie theaters, plays or planes for awhile, until their children reach the age level where they are mature enough to participate and not impact others.

I think parents who under-parent are selfish in expecting others to either tolerate their children's behaviors or parent them on their behalf. But I also think it is extremely selfish for parents to force their children to act like little adults before they are ready to do so. They are essentially asking their children to parent them by requiring that they meet all their parents needs (it should be the other way around), They are not adults, they are children. These type of parents are grown children who wind up raising...well, more grown children.

"...it is extremely selfish for parents to force their children to act like little adults before they are ready to do so."

Too bad so many of them are never ready to do so.

There is a difference between not wanting to act like an adult, and not being at the age it's appropriate to start acting like an adult.

No kid wants to grow up - that's the parents job to help them. I just don't think bringing, say, an 18mo old to a nice restaurant and expecting them to behave like an adult is realistic - or healthy.

Sounds like you had wonderful parents, Amy. ;)

I had a conference call about a week ago--I was at Mt. Rushmore, everyone else was in Santa Monica. I'm sitting on metal bleachers (for viewing the sound and light show at night) and talking away, when two school age boys climb up and proceed to bounce up and down on the metal. HIDEOUS LOUD NOISES!

Mom is watching them with a fond smile as I'm going out of my mind. At one point, someone on the other end asks me what clips I've found. I say loudly

"Great home video of children being tortured and killed, filmed at Mt. Rushmore--lots of blood and screaming!"

Mom gives me a really dirty look, and makes the boys come down. I smile sweetly.

You can blog about any fool thing you like Amy; that's what the Interwub is for. But anyone who's raised a kid from infancy is going to know you don't know what you're talking about, and will take you about as seriously as Michael Phelps would take you writing about the backstroke.

I'm not saying I'm the Michael Phelps of parenting -- but as a new father, my understanding of children and parenting is fundamentally changed from what it was 3 months ago, before I'd stuck so much as a toe in the water.

KateC-let me get this straight-you expect kids, outside, at a noisy event, to be quiet FOR YOUR PHONE CALL? You sound like a bitch.

PS-talking on your cell in public is rude.

Franko, I wouldn't say Amy doesn't know what she's talking about just because she doesn't have kids. Its just as parents certain noises beome almost backround noise to us and I can see where a parent wouldn't realize a kid saying papa papa would be annoying to others especially if the kid was sitting still and not screaming it or crying. It probably was annoying to people. I still think that the woman on the phone was rude and I don't know based on the twitters I read that I would jump to the conclusion that the parents didn't try to do something. You don't have to be a parent to know when someone is royally fucking up just as you don't have to be a parent to know when someone is doing a great job.

Amy-last I checked, planes weren't adult places. Bars, yes, strip clubs, yes, the grown-up part of teh bookstore, heck yes, but unless you want to start an airline only for those over 18 (and I'd support your efforts!) you can' say kids don't belong on planes.

I disagree with you here too, Amy. There are times that people have to fly and don't have the luxury of waiting until the kids are older. I'm not saying kids should kick seats, scream or behave horribly, but I'd say that there are times people have to suck it up. I'd be a little more understanding about a kid being upset on a plane than in a restaurant or similar place, especially if I saw the parent attempting to quell the kid. I went to Jamaica last month and sat next to a woman with two kids and a baby. The baby cried a few times probably due to altitude changes. The mom tried soothing the baby but there were still spurts of crying. She was going home to Jamaica to visit family who hadn't seen the kids. Was the crying annoying? Yes, but I was sympathetic to the mom and eventually tuned the baby out and went to sleep. I wasn't going to glare at the mom, correct her, or make huffy phone calls complaining. Sometimes it happens.

franko, I'm sorry but that's poor logic. Amy remembers how she was raised, she saw relative's kids being raised and sees kids in public all the time. Any adult knows bratty kids when they see them. You can tell by a parent's attitude how involved they are as well.

I'm not saying she has nothing interesting to say on the matter; I'm saying she cannot speak authoritatively on the subject. Would you buy a parenting book that she'd written? I wouldn't any sooner than I'd buy a book about training for a marathon by Stephen Hawking.

Assuming a baby repeating "papapapapa" necessarily wants its father's attention isn't just wrong, it's ignorant.

Again, Franko, I don't think that being a parent makes one an expert in any way. As a mom, there are times that I understand something differently than someone without kids only because there are certain adjustments to lifestyle that are made, at least for the good parents. You don't need to be a parent to know that something is annoying and shouldn't be done. While I am not in complete aggreement in this case Amy blogged about, only because I feel I don't know the whole story, I don't see how you feel only someone who has children should be able to say that someone should correct their children's bad behavior. I guess you never decided which restaurant has the best meal, which laws you like or dislike, what movies are worth watching, or whether or not a book is interestijng. I mean unless you've worked as a chef, a politician, a director, or an author.

Which you really can't speak authoritatively on until you've done it.

Other have jumped on this already, but this kind of thinking makes me batshit. Would you accept parenting advice from Shaquan Duley?

You'll have to forgive franko. Such is the burden of our Progressive betters, always being on guard to tell us to mind our station, lest we become a bother.

Dr. Benjamin Spock wrote a book on parenting that pretty much ruined an entire generation of children. He apologized for that on his death bed.

I hardly think that Amy could do worse. And considering she is able to learn from experience (unlike the aforementioned Dr.) I'd say she's got an above average chance of knowing more about parenting than the typical parent.

"Any adult knows bratty kids when they see them."

Not just adults. I know I can't be the only person who got their eye-rolling started early, from watching other kids "acting out", which we used to call throwing a tantrum.

Oh, I know very well I got carried out of at least one store or restaurant in my time, as did my sisters. But my folks didn't wait until we were getting dirty looks from the neighboring tables before they acted.

*****Other have jumped on this already, but this kind of thinking makes me batshit. Would you accept parenting advice from Shaquan Duley? *****

You beat me to it. I think that statement pretty much sums it up.

I don't think that being a parent makes one an expert in any way.... You don't need to be a parent to know that something is annoying and shouldn't be done.

---
Kirsten's comment is absolutely correct.

I see parents parenting badly all the time. I cringe when I see an adult smacking a tiny infant's back in an effort to get the newborn to burp. There is light patting, which is acceptable and effective, and then there is smacking so hard that the baby's back and internal organs can be bruised. These people are parents yet they are causing real physical harm to their own precious new infant.

....
I never said anyone who's had a kid is automatically an expert on parenting. I certainly wouldn't write a parenting book, either.

OK, fine, I didn't realize Amy had read so many studies, I'll buy her book. I'll add it to my list of must-reads:

Opening your Heart to Love by Mel Gibson
Dealing with Addiction by Lindsay Lohan
Power Spelling! by Dan Quayle
A Course in Ethics by Rod Blogojavich
International Diplomacy by George W Bush
Introduction to Color Theory by Stevie Wonder
Tell Him No! by Bristol Palin
Shower Your Children with Love by Woody Allen
Car Safety by James Dean and Isadora Duncan
Get the Man of Your Dreams by Melissa Ethridge
Serialism in Stravinsky's Dodecaphonic Works: a Re-evaluation by Ke$ha

Franko, if Amy was trying to sell you a book on parenting by blogging about this story, I'd say you may have a valid argument. But the fact that she commented and blogged on something pointed out to her does not mean she can't have an opinion, whether you agree with it or not, nor does it mean she must qualify herself as an expert on parenting to have an opinion. Obviously people disagree with things Amy writes on here at one time of another and it becomes an open discussion. I wonder what the title of "your" book would be...."closed minds, closed societies?"

OK, Kristen, you win that argument -- though it's an argument with a position I wasn't taking. Amy is the one who claims to be an authority on child-rearing. I granted that she may have interesting things to say on the topic, but reading studies does not make you an expert on raising kids. It's a physical, emotional, existential trial/adventure that you can't fully understand without experiencing it.

And you totally missed with the parting jab -- you should have gone with "Making Friends and Influencing People" by franko, or "How to Not be a D!ck on Internet Message Boards" by franko.

Which you really can't speak authoritatively on until you've done it.

I can authoritatively speak on being a mature adult, and some of these parents are neither acting mature or adult.

franko, I'm sorry but that's poor logic. Amy remembers how she was raised, she saw relative's kids being raised and sees kids in public all the time. Any adult knows bratty kids when they see them. You can tell by a parent's attitude how involved they are as well.

Posted by: crella at August 18, 2010 8:45 PM

Well said! Anyone can have common sense.

From Samuel Johnson (this was about critics in general):

"You may abuse a tragedy, though you cannot write one. You may scold a carpenter who has made you a bad table, though you cannot make a table. It is not your trade to make tables."

When it comes to child-rearing, it's simply about knowing what proper MANNERS are. Anyone who's grown up in a particular country knows perfectly well what is supposed to be proper etiquette and what isn't. (Manners are what make all societies the same; etiquette is what makes them different.)

Of course, it's unfair to assume that a parent ALWAYS has the choice not to bring a child on a plane. Trouble is, too many adults just don't understand the difference between a Need and a Necessity!

Case in point: From the book, "The Kid Turned Out Fine: Moms Fess Up About Cartoons, Candy, And What It Really Takes to Be a Good Parent":

rmholdsworth dot tripod dot com / id3 dot html

Restaurants and shopping malls became my hunting ground. See that mom with the screaming two-year-old in the men’s section of the department store? That will not be me. If my child ever behaves that way I will pick him up immediately and march his little screaming self to the car. All of my shopping would have to wait. I will show my child who’s the boss! Me.

Then there was that “monster” in my favorite restaurant. The one over at a table in the corner. There she was, screeching that she “wasn’t going to eat that!” Then she crawled underneath the table not to be hauled out again until the check was signed and the tip left. NO, no. My husband and I would tsk tsk, shake our heads and say, “Oh No”. Our children will eat what they are given. They will behave as proper ladies and gentlemen. They will use their utensils, speak in a properly modulated voice and always say “please” and “thank you.” Our children will behave properly..........

...........What I didn’t realize during those years of sticking my nose in the air and damming the bedraggled parenting masses was someone was listening. Someone was up there with a notebook and pencil chuckling to himself as he recorded each time I swore my child wouldn’t behave that way. And boy did I get my just due for all that pre-parenting smugness.

Do you remember that poor mother in the men’s department store stoically pushing her screaming toddler up and down the aisles of modern fashion? What I didn’t realize between the wails for candy and shushes from mom was if she came home without socks for her husband, she would have to tell him why he was missing all twelve pair of work socks and why his sock drawer still held a residual smell of diaper cream. I know this because that was me. And right after the socks mommy had to buy more diaper cream- and put it up higher this time-away from curious hands.

Remember that lovely couple with the child in the restaurant screeching about her meal? What I couldn’t possibly have known while I was calmly munching on my appetizers and sipping on a cool glass of Chardonnay was this family hadn’t been out of the house in what seemed like forever. Only their acute and unrelenting desire to eat somewhere where the meals didn’t come in a folding paper box with a prize at the bottom drove them to take such desperate measures. This was how they found themselves sitting in an elegant seafood restaurant with a little tyrant masquerading as their lovely and gracious three-year-old.

(end of excerpts)

Um, EXCUSE me, but while the first case makes a good plea for sympathy, I have NO sympathy for any parents who "need" a fancy restaurant! If you can afford a good restaurant but not a babysitter, WAIT UNTIL YOU CAN.

Again (and for the last time, I promise) I'm not saying having a kid makes you an expert in raising children. I'm saying you can't be an expert in raising children without raising children.

I wouldn't trust the advice of someone on raising a dog from someone who'd never had a dog. If that's short-sighted on my part, so be it.

If you wanted to direct films, would you ask Roger Ebert or Martin Scorcese for advice? Ebert's probably read more about it than anyone alive. But I think Marty would probably give you more directly applicable advice.

Whatever, I have a very non-theoretical diaper to go change.

Oh, and to Brian: Yes, Spock had his flaws. (Miss Manners once complained that he insulted mothers' intelligence by over-explaining everything, and, while he stopped saying, in 1968 or so, that it's OK for parents to let kids have TVs in their bedrooms, he never spoke AGAINST that practice, IIRC.)

However, he also got an unfair reputation. That is, when he said "trust your instincts," he didn't say "trust your STUPID instincts, such as letting kids gobble junk food and watch TV all day if it keeps them quiet and out of mischief." Which is what many parents did, and when their kids didn't turn out so well, they blamed Spock. Not fair. Even the authoritative family therapist, Dr. John Rosemond, who wrote a dozen books including "Because I Said So!," has said "I am not the anti-Spock." Example: "Should you give your kids reasons? Absolutely. Should you try TO reason with them? Never!" (Which is pretty much the way Spock thought.)

Sometimes seeing something from a distance gives you a clearer view.

And you certainly learn what DOESN'T work.

I'm saying you can't be an expert in raising children without raising children.

If I were giving birth, I would take the help of a male OB/GYN who had delivered hundreds of babies over the help of a woman who had given birth to a few herself.

Being a parent certainly offers a perspective that non-parents don't have, but that perspective does not confer any special advantages in understanding child behavior.

Things to consider, as a bystander:

1. Is bringing the small child in the first place a selfish decision on the part of the parent? (Clearly, yes, in the case of fancy restaurants; but in a plane, one can't know for sure - it COULD be an emergency of some kind.)

2. Is the parent making a visible EFFORT to do something about the noise - assuming it's louder than any noise YOU'RE making ? If yes, one has to be patient. (Hint: Pressure changes in planes hurt children's ears horribly.)

3. If the answer to #2 is no, does one have the right to complain, politely, whether to the parent or the flight attendant? Of course.

4. Does complaining about an APPARENT lack of effort on the parent's part make you, the bystander, an arrogant know-it-all? No.

Bottom line: Being a parent doesn't mean being allowed to break strangers' sense of decorum any more than Absolutely Necessary - and that means remembering that just because you can tune out childish noises at your home doesn't mean strangers should have to. (That includes the strangers living downstairs, of course.)

The woman sent me another couple of tweets. I think the attitude of this one says it all:

amyalkon: @TasterTotsLA My neighbor needs PT work. Perhaps she could offer you/your husband parenting training? She's amazing. Very considerate, too!

Oh, here's more on Spock, from, of all people, the fundamentalist James Dobson! The book is "The Strong-Willed Child."

"Based on these conversations (face-to-face, in 1974 or so) I am firmly convinced that Dr. Benjamin Spock believes in the value of consistent discipline and parental leadership. His reputation for permissiveness is largely unjustified and is, in fact, a matter that he resents deeply. Dr. Spock blames Norman Vincent Peale for confusing the public on his views, and believes that the minister's deeper motive was to discredit him deeper motive was to discredit him for his pacifist stance on the Viet Nam war. I can't speak for Dr. Peale, but I do believe Dr. Spock's views have been grossly misrepresented to the American public. I found him to be a very gentle, unassuming man who did not seek the parental influence that fell to him....."

(snip)

From reading the chapter, *I* suspect that the problem was that while the simple rule nowadays is "act, don't yak" when it comes to disciplining children, Spock, while agreeing with that, was never that blunt in his writing, and, in fact, could be quite long-winded, so a lot of parents just didn't get the message he was trying to send.