College Degree Snobbery
A thinker I've long respected, Wendy McElroy, never went to college. Yesterday, I learned that Matt Welch, the brainy ed-in-chief of reason, never finished. He lost a job because of it. Investors Business Daily unhired him in '98 when they found out. He writes about it here:
[July 13, 1998] -- What do I, an obscure free-lancer, have in common with the exalted likes of Carl Bernstein, Walter Cronkite, Pete Hamill, Mike Royko, Hunter S. Thompson, Nina Totenberg and Ken Layne?We are, all of us, ineligible to work for Investor's Business Daily, the nation's 49th largest newspaper. Why? Because none of us has a college degree.
...Ironically, I had originally been attracted to Investor's Business Daily because of its spirited help-wanted ads in the trades, seeking candidates who "go against the grain" or "think outside of the box" or whatever.
Pardon me for stating the obvious, but what in living hell does sitting in classes between the ages of 18 and 22 have the slightest fucking bit to do with "going against the grain?" Or maybe the argument is that William Randolph Hearst would have really made something of himself if he had only stuck it out at Harvard. Mark Twain, H.L. Mencken, Robert Capa, Theodore Dreiser, Ted Turner, F. Scott Fitzgerald, William Faulkner and Edward Albee ... they all managed a little of the old "outside the box" without benefit of a four-year education.
Investor's Business Daily (whose motto is "For People Who Choose to Succeed") in fact spills much of its ink covering the doings of dropouts -- Bill Gates, Larry Ellison, Michael Dell, Steve Jobs, Steve Wozniak, David Geffen. Its editorial page is a living homage to Barry Goldwater (dropout), and echoes the saner sentiments of Rush "dropout" Limbaugh.
You could easily throw together a list of cretins and heroes with or without a bachelor's or master's degree, depending on your politics. It's a pointless exercise, proving only the uselessness of making a hard rule.
Before Matt became ed-in-chief of reason, he wrote for the UCSB paper, was a founding editor of Prague's first English-language newspaper, Prognosis, a correspondent for myriad wire services and European papers, managing editor of the Budapest Business Journal, a reporter for reason, and associate editorial page editor of the L.A. Times.
I've been a nerd and a voracious reader and student all my life -- outside of the realm of school. The book in my bathroom right now? Biostatistics: The Bare Essentials. I nearly dropped out of school after three years at the University of Michigan, but I recognized the dumb prejudice employers have, and finished my last year at NYU, thanks in part to a scholarship I wrote my way into.
Two friends and I started giving free advice on a Soho street corner as a joke, but when people started asking my friends and me serious questions, I read through all of psychology, decided Freud was largely a fraud (just making up stuff and saying it was true) and I became very influenced by Albert Ellis, who co-founded cognitive behavioral therapy with Aaron Beck.
I started thinking I should get a Master's or something and Ellis, who was a fan of my column in the New York Daily News, talked me out of it, telling me, "You know what you need to know; it would be a waste of time."
Later, I started studying evolutionary psychology and anthropology and going to their conferences and those of Council on Contemporary Families, and others, and reading their journals. Again, sans college degree. People still sometimes sneer, "What are your qualifications?" And they're basically that I know my shit, and read and study every week of my life.
UPDATE: Yet another talented, successful pal of mine just told me he doesn't have a degree -- screenwriter Josh Olson, who was nominated for the British Academy Award, the Writer's Guild Award, the USC Scriptor award and the Academy Award for his adapted screenplay for "A History of Violence."
College was fun, as was grad school (terminal Masters program, not Phd) but sometimes I feel like it was one big finishing school.
NicoleK at October 18, 2010 6:21 AM
I don't have college degree snobbery. I do really look down on stupid people...but as many of them have their own degrees (including PhDs, no proof against stupidity)...
I love the Bare Essentials stats book, the authors were the most entertainign stats pros ever. :-)
Catherine at October 18, 2010 6:25 AM
You recommended to me, Catherine...it's not only good, it's really fun. There are all these funny footnotes in the margins.
Amy Alkon at October 18, 2010 6:31 AM
I also think a big part of being a thinker is not being arrogant. I'm often terrified as I start writing a column, and I think that's a good thing to be. (I worry that I won't be able to get the science right, that I won't have anything really new or interesting to say on a topic, that I won't be funny enough.)
I also don't have an arrogant approach to knowing things. As some of you posting here have seen, when I post somebody's research, I'll often write to them to ask them if I've gotten it right. Sometimes they tell me I haven't and I post their remark and make corrections. I don't want to look smart. I want to post the smartest stuff I can, even if I have to admit I was wrong, which is no big deal.
Amy Alkon at October 18, 2010 6:35 AM
That goddamned piece of paper is the bane of my life right now. I don't have it, but frankly trying to get a job anymore, you need it. I'm at the point in my life now where I don't really want to let college interfere with my education. (Does being an 'adult learner' make everyone this impatient?). It took me until I was 27 to figure out what I really wanted to do with my life.
And if I didn't need a goddamned piece of paper to do it, I'd be on my way already instead of spinning my wheels with a bunch of fuckoff 18 year olds who think it's a wonderful thing when the geometry teacher pulls a no-show.
Bitter much? Why yes I am thanks.
Elle at October 18, 2010 6:58 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/10/18/college_degree.html#comment-1767736">comment from Elledon't really want to let college interfere with my education.
Love that.
There's a mediator in the Pacific Northwest somewhere who just sent a guy to me for one of my $125 private sessions. I find them really satisfying, because I have a single hour to help somebody see what their irrational thinking and behavior is, give them practical steps to change it (or help them take a more realistic approach). My job is to see that they don't need to come back, and I think I do it well.
Amy Alkon at October 18, 2010 7:10 AM
Whine, whine, whine...if you don't like the standards they set, don't work for them.
Patrick at October 18, 2010 7:10 AM
I find degree snobbery to be one of the most insidious forms of social elitism infecting every nook and cranny of life today.
It also has its practical drawbacks. Lemme 'splain: my husband, a (now retired) Marine Corps officer of some 30+ years service, who can get 100 people, their gear, 8 huge helicopters, ALL the parts, equipment and sundry other bits and pieces to operate completely independently for at least two weeks together, and have them on their way (his forays to Somalia or Saudi Arabia come to mind) in 48 hours. For all his many impressive and myraid accomplishments, that resume is sans degree. FEMA is not interested.
The same FEMA who REQUIRES a degree for the folks they hire who have no concept of what an EMBARQ box IS, less mind what to do with these strange plans when they're handed them to BUILD them. (For clarity's sake, an EMBARQ box is a wooden shipping container, usually built on site, that holds all your "stuff", and is numbered for a manifest to keep track of what "stuff's" where.) Which is also another important part of experience in rapid deployment ~ knowing WHAT to put in the boxes that come off FIRST (and making sure they do, INDEED, come off FIRST). If you are standing on a rooftop in New Orleans or Nashville, you will be reaping the benefits of that lack of logistical know-how thanks to the emphasis on a sheepskin.
That's just one small, personal example from a different perspective.
tree hugging sister at October 18, 2010 7:10 AM
I suck at algebra. I mean, I really suck at algebra. Can't do it save my life. But I have to pass college level algebra in order to get an Associate's degree in Business Administration. Never mind that I was an Office Manager for a biotech company for 4 years, or that I've got over 30 years of administrative assistance experience under my belt. Nope. Most places don't even want to interview me if I haven't got that degree. I was supremely lucky to land the part time gig I've got now. I'm going to try to parley it into full time. At least I've got common sense working for me. So many of those who have degrees seem to suffer a severe lack thereof.
Flynne at October 18, 2010 7:26 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/10/18/college_degree.html#comment-1767742">comment from PatrickWhine, whine, whine...if you don't like the standards they set, don't work for them.
He didn't. And they were worse off because of it.
I got a college degree because I recognized that snobbery. I would have been better off not going to NYU for my last year of college, and just doing what I've always done: going to the library and thinking a lot, and going to lectures by people who seem to know things. (This was much easier to do when I lived in Ann Arbor and New York.)
Amy Alkon at October 18, 2010 7:26 AM
Maybe that degree is the only currency that they're willing to recognize that someone else has already found you to be trainable/ educable. God knows they're not willing to waste a week or so of their precious time to find out otherwise. To be fair, a degree program has you locked in with a department long enough so that they should be able to ferret out if you're full of bluff and bullshit. Unless they themselves are there on their own merited bullshit.
I've been bashing my head in in nursing school for a few semesters now. Each semester the nurses I work with shake their heads and admonish me to not stress school as much. I have to; anything below an 84 is failing, not much room to slack. However their reasoning is I'll only use 10% of my theory, and that MY REAL EDUCATION WILL BEGIN WHEN I GET ON THE JOB. And I know they're right; I learn more on my clinical days than I do in the thousands of pages of reading I do each semester. But I gotta pay the piper....
Juliana at October 18, 2010 7:56 AM
I have gone back to school as a non traditional student because I want to become a therapist working in PTSD. I need the degree for licensing.
I am non traditional for a reason. I work, I like to work.
I went back to school thru Ashford University online. I tried to do this with U of Iowa but they just didn't have it together with their bachelor of Liberal studies ( off campus degree)but Ashford does. No strip mall school this is university that was once called Mount St Clare with a beautiful brick and mortar campus and prestigious history.
The classes have been challenging, the professors come from all over and I find the set up on using the system to be easy.
Google Ashford University and if you give them a call ask for Karen Striley to help you enroll.
Wanda at October 18, 2010 8:01 AM
My husband is a programmer.. He has a GED and never went to college. Several of the people who work in his department did go and now are trying to pay off thier 50-80k loans while making about 40k a year compared to his 50k+.
He created his own job and dragged his company into the 90's in the process.. Taught them all about that newfangled Internet thing and the intranets the could create for themselves.. Then he explained to them the wonders of the database.. They told him he seemed to know all about this stuff and hired him to create this stuff for them. He did very well at it and has spent all these years gaining experience and making money.. Meanwhile his coworkers were in college paying money to learn to do things that are atleast a year and a half out of date.. He has to teach them the new stuff when they come in..
And they pay for this.. Few of them are anywhere near paying off the loans. The one who is lives with his parents. It's sad.. My husband has spend maybe a thousand dollars on books and spent alot of his own time researching online.
The fact are if you have the talent for something college is just a waste of time..
JosephineMO7 at October 18, 2010 8:02 AM
Employers (and the government, certainly) often wind up shooting their toes off when they look more for credentials than brains and experience in potential employees. I've seen that a lot in my field. The best guy I ever worked with, who basically led our office, didn't have a degree when everyone else in the place did. After that project ended, our company didn't have anything else to offer him, since he had no degree. We lost him, and his value, to another firm (he eventually did finish his degree; as far as I know, he's doing pretty well).
I suspect it's trickier for employers to evaluate potential workers if the degree requirement isn't there. A degree in an applicable field is easy to measure -- candidates either have them or they don't. I've also read somewhere that companies use a candidate's degree as a measure of how persistent he or she is, the idea being that someone who completed college can be counted on to work hard at the job. I'm not sure if that really follows, but there it is. While devaluing the college credential would likely made it harder to evaluate job candidates, it might provide greater value in the long run.
Old RPM Daddy at October 18, 2010 8:33 AM
I taught in a college English department that offered one-credit "special topics" courses on authors or themes the teacher had been researching and wanted to share with students: "Eudora Welty," "Narratives of the Depression," and so on.
A professor in the math department was a film buff with a large collection, and he proposed to teach a course in our department on one of his favorite directors. After we determined that he really did know his stuff and could teach effectively, I thought approving the course would be a shoo-in. But no. We included film studies in our curriculum, he knew films and film criticism, his teaching record was good, and he had a PhD. However, that PhD was--omigod--in the *wrong field!* At least according to a vocal minority. The rest of us had to get just as vocal to prevail and get the course approved.
Disappointing end to the story, though: not enough students signed up, and it had to be dropped from the schedule. At least we established a precedent.
Axman at October 18, 2010 8:55 AM
>> Again, sans college degree
Amy, you might make a correction in the last paragraph of this post. Not to be nit-picky, but I believe it should read, "sans graduate degree."
albertine at October 18, 2010 8:57 AM
I did a research paper on psychology in college. I was assigned reading of Freud, and found him laughably complex and hyper-technical. It couldn't just be a bad translation from the German. I was amazed that his statemements were accepted as scientific, when he was clearly giving names to various categories of behavior (Id, Ego, Super-Ego), then explaining things after the fact as various interactions between these mental states. No prediction was possible, or required by Freud's admirers.
This convinced me that anything called science must be shown to be predictive, otherwise it is just story-telling with a technical gloss.
We see the same thing now in economics. Krugman, the Keynesians, and Team Obama have named various parts of economic behavior, and are spinning stories where no prediction is possible or required. Their economic story is being used by progressives to justify seizing wealth and power.
Andrew_M_Garland at October 18, 2010 9:21 AM
so the big pink pooka in the room is that a college degree is a defacto high school diploma now... many places have monsterfied their job application process, and if the alphabet soup they are looking for doesn't match what you have, they'll never call you. ONE of those requirements is likely to be a degree. That it's bull :shrug: doesn't change the fact that it's part of the deal.
Since I have a 16yrold non traditional kid... yeah this is weighing heavily. But. My recent searches internally in my company, and interviews with other potential mgrs, has just reinforced things. I HAVE a degree, but it isn't an IT degree even though I have been programming for 13 years... and the response has been "oh, you don't have an IT degree..." 'No, but I have 3 letters of recommendation from Mgrs you can go talk to...'
So even the degree, is only helpful to a point...
and you won't even get your foot in the door without one.
All the examples listed of people are EXCEPTIONAL people to start with, they can get away with it. Broing old mister normal isn't going to make it that way.
The reasons to get a degree are simple. It's the one time in your lif before you become a full adult that you can dedicate a large swath of time and energy to going to school.
Before you are working the 40 hr week, before you have a family and all the responsibility that goes with it, and so forth.
Sure it can be done later. I did a lot of my computer work at DePaul while working a 60hr week, with my ex b*tching and complaining the whole time about my hours, but it wasn't nice, it was miserable. It proved that I could overcome those obstacles, big deal.
What I look at the education Q? is how much of a basis does it give you to work, and also what options does is open up. You might get yoor foot in the door, sure. You might even work your way up for 15years... and then when you want a promotion and everyone else in the pool has a degree, and you don't? Guess who doesn't get promoted? Gues who has to stare down the possibility of going to school or losing his job? Guess who has a family and house and so on relying on him being marketable?
Get A degree from an instate place, or CC and then an instate place, so you have the sheepskin, as a basis. Potential employers don't give a damn about if you ever need algebra on the job, or that stupid freshman literature class that you hated EVERY. MINUTE. OF.
It's just a box to check. If you can't check the box, you don't get in the door to dazzle the hiring mgr. with what you know.
SwissArmyD at October 18, 2010 9:28 AM
"Employers (and the government, certainly) often wind up shooting their toes off when they look more for credentials than brains and experience in potential employees."
I completely agree. I was just having a conversation about this the other day with a friend of mine. If I were to own my own business, I can tell you that the work experience piece would be the heavily sought after requirement, not the college degree.
I didn't learn too much in college, other than I was so much better than other people for getting one. You hear this a lot - maybe they push this philosophy so much so that you fork out thousands - tens of thousands to get that piece of paper.
It was the fact that I was working for an insurance broker 40+ hours a week from the time I was 21-29 (while attending college from the age of 19 to 25), and taking 17 units AND paying for an apartment, car, gas, food etc. during that time that gave me my greatest lessons. While I am glad I got the degree, it means less in the real world then what I learned on the job and in life managing the hectic schedule.
There are so many people I've met in my life that were a hell of a lot smarter than me that never went to college.
Feebie at October 18, 2010 9:31 AM
A Bachelors degree is a form of accreditation. Having it doesn't mean your good at what you do just as not having it doesn't mean that you can't do the work in question. But it is a gate to pass ... some form of proof that you might be able to do the work.
When I hire people, I find it very difficult to know if someone will be good. A resume full of glowing references and a job candidate who speaks well does not a qualification make. The degree gives me at least some confidence that this person has received some training, has some understanding of the job, and is generally well rounded.
Software development is perhaps the most loosey-goosey profession because there are a lot of basement hackers who can code like no tomorrow ... without a degree. However, the job entails more than slinging code. You have to collaborate with a team, write user guides and architectural papers, work with customers, etc. These basement hackers are generally very poor at anything other than writing the code. A person with a degree has had the technical writing classes, has had to work projects in teams, and has a better chance of being successful in the job.
However, that being said, I do believe in exceptions. If someone with a great reputation comes to me, but does not have the degree, I'd be fine with that.
AllenS at October 18, 2010 9:43 AM
Personally having tossed away the best years of my life (18-26) perusing first a bachelors then a master in engineering there is no fucking way in hell I'll take orders from any high school diploma. Not a fucking chance, unless they served. Military experince in the real world trumps college every time I've seen those two collide. Also most of the GI bill guys I met in college were far more disciplined and hard working.
Though I have no problem hiring someone with out the sheep skin. Making that an absolute requirement is just stupid. It's rational only if your clients are rife with that same bias, or it's mandated by the field, IE: Doctor, Lawyer etc .
vlad at October 18, 2010 9:59 AM
Don't Envy the Ivy Schools
10/10/10 - EasyOpinions -> Washington Post by Jay Mathews
Who Needs Harvard?
10/12/10 - Brookings.edu by Gregg Easterbrook
Research by economists Alan B. Krueger and Stacy Berg Dale.
→ www.brookings.edu/articles/2004/10education_easterbrook.aspx
========
Mathews: [edited] The Ivy League and other top colleges add no discernable value to the lives of their graduates. They attract students with strengths such as persistence and humor that lead to success. Applicants with such qualities do just as well in life attending schools like Boise State.
The atmosphere at elite colleges is similar to what you find at most colleges. The college years are for trying out new stuff. Undergraduates devote little time to absorbing academic riches.
========
Andrew_M_Garland at October 18, 2010 10:07 AM
I'm so glad Amy's covering this!
And it's not worth as much to intelligent employers as high school counselors and college advisors make it out to be.
I mentioned once before, over a year ago, that I made the choice to utilize a government funded "paid volunteerism" program - AmeriCorps - to get somewhere, career-wise, in a bad economy, and begin to work off those ill-advised student loans. Spartee at the time was extremely critical of my decisions, both to participate in a government program and also at 18 to pursue a B.A. in history, followed by my 22 year old decision to pursue an M.A. (when I couldn't figure out what to do with the B.A.). His criticism was justified but he wasn't especially helpful with suggestions for solutions. Juliana was supportive at the time - she suggested nursing. I've instead gone into mental health, I'm working on my MSW (funded by my now employer) - but it took me til 30 to figure out what degrees are practical and what degrees are useless.
No employer has ever given a damn about my 4.0. Nor should they, I see as an adult. But that's what my college advisor told me was important: a bachelor's degree of some sort, a master's if possible, and a high GPA. WRONG!
Jessica F at October 18, 2010 10:08 AM
"But that's what my college advisor told me was important: a bachelor's degree of some sort, a master's if possible, and a high GPA. WRONG!"
As I got older I realized that this comes from two things. One is that your adviser assumes that you want to be like them. In academia your GPA is ALL that matters. The second being one of pure self service. If they convince you of the need for college then your kids go and they keep their jobs.
My GPA which was not stellar did not hold me back. However my work/project portfolio put me into solid competition with candidates that had years of experince. Me being freshly minted
vlad at October 18, 2010 10:20 AM
"MY REAL EDUCATION WILL BEGIN WHEN I GET ON THE JOB. And I know they're right; I learn more on my clinical days than I do in the thousands of pages of reading I do each semester. But I gotta pay the piper...."
And this is why I have, in my darker hours, been tempted to just fake up a transcript with the required BS classes on it already. A lot of professions should be apprenticeship-learned. That would save worlds of time and money, and attract better people. I mean, if you want to be an OR nurse, sitting in a classroom for hours a day for 2 years isn't really helping you any.
momof4 at October 18, 2010 10:28 AM
Best description of a BA I have yet seen.
"First, we will set up a single goal to represent educational success, which will take four years to achieve no matter what is being taught. We will attach an economic reward to it that often has nothing to do with what has been learned. We will urge large numbers of people who do not possess adequate ability to try to achieve the goal, wait until they have spent a lot of time and money, and then deny it to them. We will stigmatize everyone who doesn’t meet the goal. We will call the goal a “BA.”"
BTW I should have pointed out that my view is from someone with a BS/MS not BA/MA. Most of the columns that paint college as a waste of time specifically exclude Engineering and "Some" science (though never lists specifics) degrees.
vlad at October 18, 2010 10:37 AM
I thought college was a total waste of my time and money. I had a great advisor in my last year, so that saved me from just throwing in the towel. I had to take calculus. Ask me how often I use that in my personal life or on the job as a nurse. That would be NEVER.
A group of us were talking the other day about what a waste of time most of our classes were in college. We all had to take a math class to graduate, but no personal finance. Instead of calculus, I wish my college had offered a "real world finance for dummies" class that told me what the hell a 401K was or what aa Roth IRA was. How about "Email 101 - don't hit that send button yet" or "Psych 205: How to tell if that person is a sociopath BEFORE you sign the lease".
I'm with Amy. I read as often as I can, go to galleries, lectures, even watch cool shows on TV like Mythbusters.
UW Girl at October 18, 2010 10:50 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/10/18/college_degree.html#comment-1767805">comment from momof4The silliest, to me, is journalism school. You learn to write by writing. You can learn how to write a lede, etc., in an afternoon. Reportorial ethics? I could explain them to you in 20 minutes, if that.
Amy Alkon at October 18, 2010 10:55 AM
Kindly disregard my comment of 8:57 AM. After again reading Amy's post it occurs to me that in the last original paragraph "sans college degree" refers to a degree specifically in those fields. Discussion of graduate work was limited to the previous paragraph. Sorry 'bout that.
albertine at October 18, 2010 11:03 AM
I studied advertising (in J-school no less), but I taught myself graphic design on my own.
90% of what i've learned has been on the job, yet I wouldn't trade my foundation (2 yrs. liberal arts core, 2 years of major) for anything.
And I consider learning to be a lifelong pursuit, continuing to read and study various subjects.
In my field, becoming more well-rounded actually makes one better in that field -- i.e. studying languages, history and culture give me wider perspective in finding more effective solutions.
lsomber at October 18, 2010 11:14 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/10/18/college_degree.html#comment-1767817">comment from albertineI have friends in the sciences with Ph.D.'s who had to have the education that they got. But, undergrad? I could have spent four years in the library and come out with more of an education.
Amy Alkon at October 18, 2010 11:18 AM
Warren Bennis and James O'Toole, in an article titled "How business schools lost their way," observed that many years ago, the MIT course in production management was taught by the guy who actually RAN a nearby GM assembly plant. "Virtually none of today's top-ranked business schools would hire, let alone promote, a tenure track professor whose primary qualification is managing an assembly plant, no matter how distinguished his or her performance." A PhD and a record of academic publications would be considered much more important.
david foster at October 18, 2010 11:52 AM
"The silliest, to me, is journalism school. You learn to write by writing. You can learn how to write a lede, etc., in an afternoon. Reportorial ethics? I could explain them to you in 20 minutes, if that."
I have a BA in journalism. I believe you learn to write by reading. If you read a lot you can spot improper writing at a glance as it just reads (and sounds) wrong. What I believe j-school teaches one is the ability to meet a deadline no matter what. There is no such thing as being late in journalism with your work. There are no ethics in journalism except on an individual basis.
I always hated English classes as I didn't give a damn about reading classic literature or diagramming sentences. I much preferred to read the 940 section in the library. I'd always get a C or lower in English. When my senior composition class in high school collectively took the English placement test (essay) to determine whether you got into regular or dumbbell English in college, my comp instructor guaranteed to the class that I was the only one to be certain to get dumbbell. The funny thing was that when it was all over I was the only one in the class who did not get dumbbell English. I took journalism 1 instead of English as it met the same requirement, only to take three attempts to learn that little deadline thing properly.
Jay J. Hector at October 18, 2010 11:58 AM
"I have friends in the sciences with Ph.D.'s who had to have the education that they got. But, undergrad? I could have spent four years in the library and come out with more of an education."
Science and engineering degrees are almost always excluded from "the college is a waste of time" debates.
Right now I'm really wondering if they had it right all along. Have fun in college then the feds will take care of you. Mainly by punishing the hard working slobs you used to make fun of.
vlad at October 18, 2010 12:07 PM
One of the reasons employers establish educational requirements is simply to cut down on the flood of resumes that must be considered: If you can define a requirement in simple "checklist" terms, then much of the screening can be done by pseudo-clerical HR people or by a computer system. Also, many managers have little confidence in their own interviewing skills (an attitude which is often justified) and hence are looking for a security blanket.
There is something analogous going on in dating, where many people--especially women, it seems--have very long "requirements" checklists for potential spouses or LTRs.
I address some of the problems with these approaches in my post about hunting the five-pound butterfly.
david foster at October 18, 2010 12:10 PM
> What I believe j-school teaches one
> is the ability to meet a deadline no
> matter what.
One of the most memorable moments I ever had in a meeting was when I was directing TV news in a large-ish Southern market, and the boss was running down the list of old and new business in a routine monthly gathering. 15 minutes into the show, in walks Tom, a personable but sometimes irritating member of our crew, a guy who'd never been to college and was kind of touchy about it. So the boss finished whatever point he was making, and appended this sentence: "You don't need a college degree to be on time."
After two beats of silence with no eye contact, he was off on the next order of business, and Tom was fucking devastated. Everyone in that room (almost) had learned to be on time before starting high school.
I have some idea of a what a doctor studies to get his degree. Blood chemistry, I'm thinking. Muscle and tendons, maybe. Cellular structure.
Architects? I'm thinking there's a lot of math. And some physics. Some study of materials, and law and codes.
Journalism? I'm not sure what couldn't be covered in a two-day seminar. A brilliant basketball coach put it like this: "Most of us learn to read and write at age seven, then move on to bigger and better things."
_____
If everyone who didn't go to college had done as much as Welch had done to investigate public affairs, no one would worry about degrees. People are too quick to mention exceptions, like how Beethoven composed fantastic works when deaf... But you should try that sometimes.
> ...Award for his adapted screenplay for...
Showbiz doesn't count. It's about emotionally massaging mass audiences, most of whom gots no edjumication either.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at October 18, 2010 12:16 PM
Sure, some of the best minds don't have degrees, but how is a prospective employer to know? The process of screening every hopeful to find a diamond in the rough is expensive and time-consuming as it is. If one has a degree, at least it can be assumed that someone has vetted the applicant's brain to a certain extent. I can claim I know the ins and outs of X, but how do I prove it? A degree in X is a good start.
Beth at October 18, 2010 12:24 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/10/18/college_degree.html#comment-1767845">comment from BethI give prospective editorial assistants an editing test and tell them what a pain in the ass I am in various ways.
Amy Alkon at October 18, 2010 1:10 PM
*****so the big pink pooka in the room is that a college degree is a defacto high school diploma now... many places have monsterfied their job application process, and if the alphabet soup they are looking for doesn't match what you have, they'll never call you. ONE of those requirements is likely to be a degree. That it's bull :shrug: doesn't change the fact that it's part of the deal.*****
THIS. Honestly, the first two years are just a repeat of high school. Total waste of time, IMHO. I got my B.A. in English in '03, when I realized in my late 20's that I didn't want to work on the factory floor all my life. Then I fell into an accounting job there and they paid for me to get my B.S. in Business/Accounting.
Thank God I did that, because they closed the plant a month ago, and even with 7 years of accounting experience, without that degree I'd be royally screwed.
Oddly enough, at the last interview I went to, they actually asked my GPA. That's the first time I've ever had that happen.
Ann at October 18, 2010 1:27 PM
Rampant credentialism would not have happened if every other method for weeding out the stupid and incompetent had not been outlawed.
Of course, they were outlawed so that the stupid and incompetent could get jobs (that they could not do), and then have someone to sue when they get fired.
I have a degree. Essentially, I paid $30,000+ for a job placement service.
brian at October 18, 2010 1:31 PM
I've had to prove I had a degree exactly once. That was to grade TAAS tests. Everyone else has taken my word for it. Makes you wonder how many people just lie.
momof4 at October 18, 2010 1:40 PM
Beth
"Sure, some of the best minds don't have degrees, but how is a prospective employer to know?"
The employer just needs to give a simple common sense test.
I have found the higher up the degree/credential ladder one has gone, the less common sense they have. And if that wasn't telling enough, just give the paper holders a basic economics test.
Pure fail for sure.
AJP at October 18, 2010 1:44 PM
There is obviously a role for credentials in selection and hiring, but Credentialism as an ideology actually makes labor markets inefficient and poses too high of a cost on market entry for workers. Credentialism is also self driving; ironically because it devalues credentials, by dilution and over-specialization.
So you end up with a situation like the one we have now, where degrees are required because everyone needs one, because degrees are required.
mike at October 18, 2010 1:46 PM
"Honestly, the first two years are just a repeat of high school."
Want to see something funny? Check the correlation between bad school districts and rise in remedial courses at the local community college. Our CC is doing smoking business cleaning up after the area public high schools that socially promote students that can't read, add, or write.
Juliana at October 18, 2010 2:01 PM
>> but how is a prospective employer to know?
By having someone who's competent in the field interview them, and test them. That's how it's done when the placement really matters.
If someone is unable to judge the applicant, how are they able to judge the value of their degree?
nolta at October 18, 2010 2:06 PM
Hmm.
I don't have a degree. I have eight red capital "E"s on my office doorway, with a line through them. Sort of a "Not-E" symbol. Each is for a fundamental, potentially fantastically expensive mistake professional engineers, degreed all, made, that I found and corrected. More than once at meetings I've gotten the "who's that guy?!" for bringing up something totally unseen.
Some serious enthusiasm gets real results. Amateur? It means you love what you do, literally.
I know a dear lady who is a professor of journalism. She put out a book about women in the workplace. It's unreadable - an embarrassment able to revive Strunk and White, then kill them all over again.
So yes, alphabet soup gets you looked at, and it doesn't mean you're worth a damn.
Hey, look at "Dr." Kent Hovind!
Radwaste at October 18, 2010 2:49 PM
Briggs vs Duke Power, IIRC, pretty much ended employer's aptitude tests, unless one could prove they weren't biased. Four years and many, many thousands later, you've shown you are worth taking a chance on. Congratulations.
A whole career later, I'm close to concluding that there is no correlation whatsoever between the degree and being good at IT.
MarkD at October 18, 2010 3:25 PM
Sometime in my freshman year, I came across this little pearl of wisdom. Sometime in my senior year, it made sense.
Conan the Grammarian at October 18, 2010 4:03 PM
"Journalism? I'm not sure what couldn't be covered in a two-day seminar. A brilliant basketball coach put it like this: "Most of us learn to read and write at age seven, then move on to bigger and better things."
_____
If everyone who didn't go to college had done as much as Welch had done to investigate public affairs, no one would worry about degrees. People are too quick to mention exceptions, like how Beethoven composed fantastic works when deaf... But you should try that"
And most people read and write like seven-year-olds for the rest of their lives -- basketball players for example -- or teach all one could know about journalism in a two-day seminar.
Jay J. Hector at October 18, 2010 5:05 PM
I don't believe in any inherently "useless" degrees. I have two degrees that are often assumed to be useless -- the kind that make parents FREAK OUT when their kid wants to study them. But, when I applied for jobs after graduation, I had to check a box saying I had the piece of paper. And I do think that a lot of the experiences I had in college and the networking it enabled me to do helped me land those jobs -- all of which I've been very happy with and are in my field.
Is it fair? No. But, as Amy said, sometimes you have to play the game to win at it.
...that said, I agree with Flynne that things are getting a BIT ridiculous. My very first job out of college was a temp-to-hire job as an administrative assistant. The reason I got it was because this employer wanted someone with a college degree. They did not CARE about much else. And you know what? I SUCKED at that job. Being an admin assistant is HARD and involves a skill set that is not in any way tied to having a degree -- but can only be earned through experience.
This company would have been better off hiring someone with on-the-job experience and forgetting about the degree. Strangely enough, I found out that neither the HR manager nor the President at the company had college degrees. They had stupidly assumed that hiring a college grad would mean that I would need less training. Instead they got someone who had very little practical experience and where shocked (shocked!) that they would need to take time out of their days to show me the ropes.
sofar at October 18, 2010 5:07 PM
Journalism? I'm not sure what couldn't be covered in a two-day seminar. A brilliant basketball coach put it like this: "Most of us learn to read and write at age seven, then move on to bigger and better things."
A lot of J schools (including mine) no longer teach writing. They accept only those students who can write already and teach them how to shoot/edit video, use Flash, network, brand themselves and build their online presence. The business side of journalism is also emphasized.
Yes, all of that technically can be self-taught. But it's hard learning that out in the field, where a lot of old-school editors are still all whiny and butt-hurt about the whole "internet thing."
It's a misconception that J school teaches writing, AP style and crafting a lede. I'm sure some still do, but mine did not. We were expected to know all that already from previous work experience. My professors yelled at us for lazy ledes and AP mistakes -- but they never wasted time teaching us that stuff.
sofar at October 18, 2010 5:23 PM
"and teach them how to shoot/edit video, use Flash, network, brand themselves and build their online presence"
So learning that takes a shitload of money and several years? Branding yourself takes coursework? Building your "online presence" ? You're kidding right? You need to go to J school to learn all that?
Ppen at October 18, 2010 5:37 PM
And networking people! you need to go to college to learn how to network!
Ppen at October 18, 2010 5:43 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/10/18/college_degree.html#comment-1767895">comment from PpenGoing to school to learn business side of journalism? What the hell do they teach you that makes it worthwhile? I syndicated my own column to a whole bunch of papers. I didn't need to go to school for that. I was already a pushy broad, and I like eating and paying rent.
Amy Alkon at October 18, 2010 6:07 PM
College is a good way to get your foot in the door, to get employers to give you a shot. Think of it as similar to job insurance. It isn't really, but it helps.
When I went to college, I was really serious about it. I had to take a lot of classes that were completely useless to me in real life. Also, a lot of the classes that should be useful weren't as good as they'd have been if they'd been more focused on real life.
One thing about college, it does prove to prospective employees that you were able to go through college and get whatever grades you got and stick to it for that time. I think for some employers, a good GPA tells them that you were probably studying instead of partying in college.
State universities can be very good, so can community colleges.
I agree that part of college education should be apprenticeships. That should start fairly soon in the process so that people has some idea of what they're getting into before they've gone too far.
As a Computer Science major, I had to take 2 semesters of calculus, science, and a number of other classes that I've never used. Sometimes I think that certain areas of college are more like an initiation than anything else.
There were some good things. I think that learning at least a bit about art and music is important.
KrisL at October 18, 2010 6:32 PM
A friend of mine never graduated from high school. He was bored senseless by it, so he quit and got his GED. He's now a tech geek and VP of a major company. Several years ago, he interviewed with Google. They turned him away when they discovered he didn't have a degree. Fast forward to this year, when Google keeps calling him for an interview, and he keeps telling them to fuck off.
Personally, I benefited from college. No one in my family graduated from high school, even, so it was a chance to learn things I'd never been exposed to before and make connections I wouldn't have had otherwise.
MonicaP at October 18, 2010 7:15 PM
Interesting discussion, if a bit weird for me to observe.
What I have found is that people tend to be a lot more invested in the question than I am, even when talking about my specific case. I was very lucky to find my vocation at 18, and (importantly!) one of the best & most adult-free college dailies in the country at which to learn. Thinking about having a degree is something like thinking about having a big-league baseball career -- that train done left the station a looooong time ago.
Matt Welch at October 18, 2010 7:49 PM
"I suck at algebra. I mean, I really suck at algebra. Can't do it save my life." ~Flynne
I was in the same boat. I discovered, quite by accident, that the trick was to relate to math as a language rather than a machine, and to get a tutor who was fluent in more than one language.
I flunked algebra the first time I took it in high school, and had to take it again years later to graduate from college (on the 8 year plan). Our teacher was miserable - he would only talk to the chalk board, and in a whisper. Our teaching assistant however was fluent in 5 languages and was raring to connect with us. She understood that I needed the concepts to be translated - she saw that I was trying to understand what I was being asked to do, and that I was constitutionally unable to simply memorize it and spit it out without understanding. And translate we did. I think I got a B+ in that class, thanks to her.
By the way - mid-way through the program, it was clear that the students had flocked to the teaching assistant and were avoiding the professor. Please do not underestimate how many people are bad at what they get paid to do; you may have had a string of bad algebra "teachers," and could be perfectly capable of the thinking required for algebra (See "Types of Thinking in Algebra" at http://www.jstor.org/pss/3027828).
I got into one of the best graduate schools in the country (I did not take an entrance exam, so no math barrier) and decided to tackle statistics. The learning support center decided to let me qualify for assistance, in the form of paid tutoring. I requested a tutor who was fluent in more than one language. This guy was fluent in only two languages, but his native language was Korean. Again, it worked like a charm. He was able to understand where certain concepts were not translating for me, and come at it from another angle.
The professor was also excellent (and notorious for being demanding) in that she had taken each assigned problem and broken it down into its component parts, and we could pinpoint exactly where I had gone "off." I was able to build off the "translation" work I had done with the tutor and tell her what I understood something to mean, or at least highlight where I got lost, and she was able to fill in the gaps. I earned an A- in statistics from one of the toughest professors at the school.
For a confidence booster, I recommend "Math Doesn't Suck" by Danica McKeller. She covers the basics and breaks it down in a way that makes it possible for me to feel confident about my foundational knowledge.
You can do this. You just need to get a "C," and you can get a "C" in Algebra.
Michelle at October 18, 2010 7:55 PM
"You just need to get a "C," and you can get a "C" in Algebra."
But why buy that?
The major complaint here is that people with degrees don't know shit - and here's a recommendation to just get by?
Hell, no!
Learn, so that you have the tools to learn more!
Remember telling somebody you'd never use algebra? Guess what? You're being manipulated by politicians who tell you that certain things will happen if they raise the minimum wage.
Ahem. Add the same thing everywhere in the equation. Have you changed the relationship between the sides? NO. (Hint, hint.)
And statistics is not what you think, either - endless lies repeated by special interests to frighten you out of your money.
Unless you learn, you have to believe someone else, and that someone doesn't give one damn about you.
Radwaste at October 18, 2010 8:28 PM
> And most people read and write like seven-
> year-olds for the rest of their lives --
> basketball players for example -
To no tragic effect. Seriously, what are they missing in life, 'cept the honor of your admiration? People all over the world have ways of making themselves understood, even if they don't get paychecks from Gannett.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at October 18, 2010 8:47 PM
I don't have a degree -- I have some certs and have taken some classes over the years. Also ex-USAF. I'm a production DBA.
I'm currently working with an ex-squid who grew up with an IT dad. He's good and learns but he is going to the operating system/networking side. We canned the lazy b**tch that claimed to have a computer science degree -- and couldn't do the basics after three freakin' years. (May her future include "Do you want fries with that?")
We have a newly minted guy with a computer engineer masters degree -- he says, paraphrased -- he's learned more with us of real world in eight weeks than he picked up in four years. He is going for his bachelors anyway.
It takes hours to cut my resume down to one and a half pages (technical or history). And when I walk into an interview -- what do I want to cut out of my portfolio to get it under two inches thick. But I can show them everything that is relevant and have talking points for just about every question they ask.
My last company was a bank -- they created the DBA position for me after being the primary dev staff. My current company (health care SW) had a new position I was hired to fill. It was new last November -- I am now the gatekeeper between the production/support staff and the developers.
The whole point being that a piece of paper can make a difference -- but it should not be a deciding factor.
Jim P. at October 18, 2010 9:43 PM
In my experience degree does not always imply the individual is smart but no degree usually implies the individual is not smart. At least a tech/voc degree.
The two tech/voc degrees and AA degrees value seems rather questionable to me, but I guess they are really cheap (I just checked a local one and they estimate $5000 for the degree). It seems like they constantly have to be retrained.
Experiance is one thing, but not everything. A good friend of mine is really good at what he does but never really got the underlying stuff. When the company changed technologies after 10 years, he was lost and the only thing that kept him from being fired was that he had good friends in powerful places. After about 3 years he was back to being an expert - but he had to relearn the surface stuff again - I still doubt he understands the real why.
The Former Banker at October 19, 2010 12:25 AM
We have a newly minted guy with a computer engineer masters degree -- he says, paraphrased -- he's learned more with us of real world in eight weeks than he picked up in four years. He is going for his bachelors anyway. - Jim P.
huh? If he has a masters, then he is beyond a bachelors. Sounds like you are an admin, I would not expect someone in computer engineering to learn anything about being an admin. That is like expecting a printing press repair person to be good at journalism because s/he can repair the printing press.
The Former Banker at October 19, 2010 12:30 AM
Man, it annoys me when people claim that college math courses are useless. Trust me, those of us who pushed our way through high school and college higher math classes see evidence of our society's ignorance in this area everywhere: credentialed journalists who don't understand probability and statistics, doctors and nurses who don't understand Gaussian distributions and how that might affect diagnosis (probably because they were scoffing at calculus), general members of society who are prone to believing all sorts of pseudoscience because they don't have the basic mathematical tools to evaluate data significance, etc.
And I consider "I can't do math" to be as pointless as "I can't do English." My husband is mildly dyslexic but they didn't give him an exemption to learning how to write. Why do so many otherwise intelligent liberal arts types think that putting an effort to learn basic math skills is not part of a well-rounded education?
Astra at October 19, 2010 12:38 AM
"I suck at algebra. I mean, I really suck at algebra. Can't do it save my life."
I'm trying again for this very reason. Somewhere along the way, in 4th grade, I think, I got distracted by a butterfly or something and missed something important. So I'm teaching myself from the ground up to figure out where I derailed. It could also be entirely that I'm just a moron, which I'll find out soon enough, too. With Internet resources and free classes online, it has never been easier to learn this stuff without formal training.
MonicaP at October 19, 2010 6:45 AM
Something that I find interesting is that the institutions that grant these degrees don't even recognize their own credits after a few years. Basically the credits expire. So they're implicitly acknowledging that the degree, as an indicator of knowledge and capability, expires as well. Yet employers will still privilege a degree over experience many years after it's been obtained.
jakem at October 19, 2010 8:49 AM
@Astra
I took calculus in college. I got a 3.5. I'm a nurse. And I don't use calculus on the job. Statistics, yes. Basic multiplication and division, yes. And I could see the argument that those skills need to be better developed in a lot of people.
However, it's my experience that if anything, people need to take more communications classes in college. I can't tell you how many times I've seen a doctor come into a room and start talking to a patient and their family using all medical terms, leaving everyone frightened and confused.
And how about the many discussions we've had on here about customer service?
Oh, and one more thing; most math majors I've encountered can't communicate worth a damn. One of my husband's friends has PhD in math and listening to the man talk is painful.
UW Girl at October 19, 2010 8:59 AM
Don't have time to read everything here, but I couldn't help noticing that the vast majority of the famous people Matt Welch listed were born before 1950 - some LONG before 1950. I.e., you might as well compare the 21st century to 1860, when even a man who'd had less than one year of formal schooling in his whole life could become President. Or 1883, when even a 16-year-old could be a schoolteacher, provided he/she truly knew the subjects to be taught.
As one person said, today, even if you just want to be a cop, chances are you'll need a degree of some kind that you didn't used to need.
lenona at October 19, 2010 12:51 PM
It depends on what you're getting a degree in doesn't it?
I got a math degree in 1977 and was lucky enough to have spent considerable time writing programs to solve equations in my Jr. and Sr years. Got a job real quick after graduation. Saved my a$$ too when I was given a thankless job to write some pricing and costing algorithms that everyone thought was impossibly complex. I did it and I thank my math teachers for it. I came out of school with $4000 in loans not $40,000 or more. I was taught by PhD's and never by a TA. I had teachers that were heartless and moved by good work, not pleas's of pity. I've never been laid off, nor unemployed since 1978. Without a demanding college program, none of this likely would have happened to me.
I didn't go to an elite school either, just a good liberal arts school that had good profs and small class sizes. Since then, the university system needs a RICO investigation for nationwide fraud.
Like asking parents to pay $30,000 to $50,000 a year for TA's teaching their kids.
richardb at October 19, 2010 3:23 PM
Amy, the first degree I got was an MD. I've gotten a couple more since but only for specific reasons.
The reason why employers require bachelors degrees now is because they are not allowed to use IQ tests. My father-in-law was a high level executive at Hughes Aircraft Company in the 1960s. He was a college dropout and was constantly working with people with PhDs in electrical engineering and physics, including the president of the company. When he was asked where he had graduated, his response was to say that he had only finished the eighth grade. He said it was a great response and many of his associates looked at him with new respect. In fact, he finally got his BA degree at the age of 87.
Mike Kennedy at October 19, 2010 3:27 PM
I find the whinging against obtaining a college degree rather annoying. There is much to be said for obtaining a broad general education (including an introduction to calculus, which is essential for any real work in science or understanding statistics) as well as the (relatively) in depth study in an academic subject area that constituted the course of study for an undergraduate degree in my day some 45 years ago. I suppose in that regard, I'm fortunate to have had that sort of an undergraduate education, and to have been raised in a family in which that kind of a college education had been expected of the men, and of the women who seriously wanted it, for many generations.
The degree itself has become so devalued since, that it has become a mere credential in many cases, but not in all. One can no longer assume that those who have "college degrees" today actually have a general education, or much knowledge even of any real academic subject.
CatoRenasci at October 19, 2010 3:28 PM
Recent headlines tell of new degrees for the "intellectually challenged", meaning anyone can get a degree now. Anyone.
So, not to worry. Everyone can get a degree, and everyone with a degree has just had theirs devalued.
When they call it four years wasted, it will be even more true.
(I dropped out after completing all the work for a Comp Sci major in the 70's. I've written software for NASA, major banks, and invented a new GPS control algorithm to automatically steer farm tractors. Four patents in the field. I found degree snobbery on the East Coast, but the rest of the country can be persuaded, if you're good)
narby at October 19, 2010 3:32 PM
UW Girl..."people need to take more communications classes in college. I can't tell you how many times I've seen a doctor come into a room and start talking to a patient and their family using all medical terms, leaving everyone frightened and confused."
The problem is very real, and not just with doctors (though they are some of the worst offenders)---but is the problem lack of proper coursework, or just lack of humanity and empathy?
Also, "communications" seems to usually mean some strange combination of journalism and PR...doubt it would help much here.
david foster at October 19, 2010 3:34 PM
"What do I, an obscure free-lancer, have in common with the exalted likes of Carl Bernstein, Walter Cronkite, Pete Hamill, Mike Royko, Hunter S. Thompson, Nina Totenberg and Ken Layne? "
Soon as I read that, I stopped. Matt Welch might be principled, even brainy. Nor do I think that being degreed is a guarantee either. But there is such a thing as earning your stripes and meeting the specifications for the job. Did Welch get hired sans degree even though the job required it? If he did and signed a document to that effect he committed fraud.
As to the earning the stripes. Has Welch ridden in a B17 in a war zone? Walter Cronkite did. Or lets say walked onto the periphery of a Taliban camp like Michael Yon has? Or has he written obits at a two bit paper for years in the depression before making it to the national media. Eric Severid did. The list is long, and the tasks each of those on the list performed to get to the pinnacle of their chosen profession is longer still.
Welch comes across as the guy looking for the quick jump and got caught in the act early. Boo Hoo.
JohnMc at October 19, 2010 3:52 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/10/18/college_degree.html#comment-1768211">comment from JohnMcBut there is such a thing as earning your stripes and meeting the specifications for the job. Did Welch get hired sans degree even though the job required it? If he did and signed a document to that effect he committed fraud. As to the earning the stripes. Has Welch ridden in a B17 in a war zone?
Is that really the requirement to report and write think pieces for Investor's Business Daily? Go read Matt at reason before you disparage him. He's the last person anyone would ever accuse of being a whiner.
Amy Alkon at October 19, 2010 4:19 PM
The unfortunate counterpart to the credential snob is the person who feels inferior for not having a university degree. My father had to turn down a partial scholarship to a good school to work for the family business. He and his (equally un-degreed) brother became very successful and well respected in their field. Yet he never could shake the feeling that the world would think that he was stupid, and that the world would be right.
ronbo at October 19, 2010 4:21 PM
All we really need to understand the value of a degree from the most prestigious schools is to look at the nitwits that created the economic morass we currently find ourselves in. There is a huge difference in being intelligent and having smarts. Just because you have the ability to absorb information doesn't mean you know how to use it, or to what end.
Charlie at October 19, 2010 4:31 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Melvill
Melvill's Bio says he attended college, nothing about graduating or advanced degres etc. Searching online ( so yeah .. anecdotal evidence ) ... I can't find anything that say's he actually GRADUATED WITH A DEGREE from Hilton/finished college.
Either way he's my hero, first civilian astronaut wings awarded by NASA !!elventy!1!
Andy
AndyOH at October 19, 2010 4:41 PM
I'm not interested in anybody's "credentials." I'm interested in their portfolios.
iowahawk at October 19, 2010 4:54 PM
How many employers hold views that leftist reasoning is antithetical to good business and even to common sense, yet still require applicants to endure long exposure to professional indoctrinators? The strong-willed person coming through the fire more independent thinking is the exception. More typical of the sheepskinned herd is a closed mind that takes years (if ever) to open up to the possibility that left=good and right=evil just may not have inscribed on the tablets after all.
I have to thank my women's studies prof, Dr. Testicrunch, for hastening my emergence from the fog. The first day my roommate and I were delighted at being the only XY's in class. Hey, it was 1971 and we didn't quite understand the concept. Looking at current course catalogs I shudder at the amount of either humiliation or deception required for an independent mind to be certified by the American madrasahs.
Uffda at October 19, 2010 5:05 PM
While I generally agree that the credential doesn't guarantee (or, even, suggest) intelligence and accomplishment, the opposite also isn't true: having a credential doesn't preclude intelligence and accomplishment, either (Ivy Leaguers not withstanding).
I have a mere bachelor's degree, but could not have accomplished my 51 years of professional experience at 53 years old without it! You see, I began a 25-year journalism while still in college (and degree-less), but could not have become a full-time teacher during that tenure without the degree.
I like to think that I, too, "...know my shit, and read and study every week of my life...". The fact that I have a college degree shouldn't diminish that.
Finally, I'm reminded of some Thoreau (read BEFORE degreed!): "...I called on the king, but he made me wait in his hall, and conducted like a man incapacitated for hospitality. There was a man in my neighborhood who lived in a hollow tree. His manners were truly regal. I should have done better had I called on him."
Tim at October 19, 2010 5:18 PM
I have a vaguely related experience. I've been trying to find a law teaching job for a few years. I have far more law review articles in print than the average prof, and those written during decades of actual practice, handling cases all the way up to the US Supreme Court.
But--no interest from schools. I'm told by law prof friends that a major barrier is likely that my degree is not from a top ten school. A decent school, but not top ten (no way to afford that when I was young. My parents and I were working class, I was the first on either side to go to college, let along graduate).
The other barrier is that today a law prof has a specific course to follow. Get a top ranked degree. Clerk for a judge (i.e., watch lawyers, don't be one) for two years. Then apply to teach. Or, at most, work for a big firm for two years. (Which means you write memos, never try a case or argue an appeal). If you actually practice, that ruins your mind for academia. In the few interviews I've gotten, I frequently am asked "so why did you decide to go into teaching this late in life?" as if experience was a downside.
law type at October 19, 2010 5:29 PM
"The employer just needs to give a simple common sense test"
That's a good way to get sued, if not prosecuted.
"How many employers hold views that leftist reasoning is antithetical to good business and even to common sense"
Nearly all.
"yet still require applicants to endure long exposure to professional indoctrinators?"
Despite undeniable left wing indoctrination in our universities, there's a huge body of research contained in GSS data, and that data is very, very clear - to the extent going to college is going to affect your political views, it's going to shift them to the right, not the left (GSS tool here: http://sda.berkeley.edu/archive.htm ). Somebody with a bachelors degree is about half as likely as a high school dropout to identify as a Democrat, and almost twice as likely to identify as Republican. Indeed, Republicans are one thing our universities are quite good at producing.
J at October 19, 2010 5:46 PM
Tim,
When asked "Why did you decide to go into teaching this late in life?"
do you tell them it's because you thought it a good idea to actually learn something worth teaching?
Lord, how incredibly arrogant these fools in academia are, and what an unrealistic picture they hold of themselves and their mates!
The older I get, the more I believe those who can, do; those who can't, teach, and those who can't teach, administrate.
Lee at October 19, 2010 5:53 PM
"You just need to get a "C," and you can get a "C" in Algebra." ~Michelle (me)
"But why buy that? The major complaint here is that people with degrees don't know shit - and here's a recommendation to just get by? Hell, no! Learn, so that you have the tools to learn more!" ~Radwaste
...
One can buy, at most, the credential. One cannot buy learning. I did offer some suggestions for *learning* algebra - and also one suggestion for relating to the credentialing requirement. "Learning" and "credentials" are two separate things.
A grade is not proof of learning. There is no "universal" grading rubric among U.S. colleges for algebra - so a "C" in algebra at the school Flynne attends could be equivalent to earning an "A" in algebra at a different school - perhaps even in a different algebra class at that same school.
If you want to learn algebra, by all means, learn algebra. If you meet the Professor, engage with the course work, and find that an "A" would be a worthwhile expenditure of time, energy, and emotional investment, by all means pursue it.
If it's nothing more than a cr@ppy suckage of your limited time and energy, do what you need to do to get in and get out. If you are required to get a degree, and the degree requires you to successfully complete a class in algebra, remember you only need to get a "C" to graduate and not tank your QPA.
Please don't dignify the credentialing and grading racket where the grades do not indicate an objective, universal level of learning.
Michelle at October 19, 2010 6:16 PM
@AndyOH Comment at October 19, 2010 4:41 PM
America's First Commercial Astronaut, Mike Melvill of Burt Rutan's Scaled Composites, appears to be a Junior High School dropout
"High School: Hilton College, Pietermaritzburg, South Africa (dropout age 11)" Ref Link: http://www.nndb.com/people/496/000051343/
"Melvill was raised in Durban, S.Af., and attended but did not graduate from Hilton College, a private boarding high school in Hilton." Ref Link: http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/1026168/Michael-Melvill
RM3 Frisker FTN at October 19, 2010 6:35 PM
If an employer uses a college degree as a tool to ensure that all potential job candidates can do basic things like follow directions and meet a simple deadline, they know that they can't be sued for discrimination due to 'disparate impact'.
JustSomeDude at October 19, 2010 7:10 PM
It was Griggs vs Duke Power. IANAL, and my memory isn't what it used to be. Or, there is more history now, so I no longer remember it all.
I'm not certain of the value of the degree itself to the job, but I can tell you that there is nothing more detrimental to an IT organization than someone who cannot or will not learn, continuously. I've had degreed and non-degreed employees in both camps.
I don't regret getting my degree. Some of the things I thought would be useless like accounting, finance and statistics have helped a lot in my career and life. Everything technical is long since obsolete, but the principles remain valid.
MarkD at October 19, 2010 7:16 PM
Hi,
I'm the author of the novel FRAGMENT, from Random House, and I don't have a college degree. I'm constantly surprised how much more I know about biology and evolution than people who do have degrees. As humorist Malcolm Kushner said, "people who rest on their laurels are wearing them on the wrong end." You can never stop learning, but many who get that degree think it means they're allowed to stop learning while being considered learned forever more. This despite the fact that what is taught in college is sometimes one-sided or politically motivated and that the tender age of most college students has not endowed them with the skepticism to know the difference.
Warren Fahy at October 19, 2010 7:33 PM
Mark Twain said it: don't let schooling interfere with your education.
I have several degrees, and a professional certificate. I needed them to become a research scientist and teacher. I'm no longer an academic. But my schooling was irreplaceable, in part for things I did not learn in formal classrooms, but in other ways in the academic environment.
Having been both student and teacher, I can say that without a dount that teachers and fellow students can lead you to the place; but ultimately, there's only learning, not teaching. Our society is afflicted with a snobbery of credentialism. People confuse education with schooling, and both with expensive pieces of paper.
Binah at October 19, 2010 8:33 PM
huh? If he has a masters, then he is beyond a bachelors. Sounds like you are an admin, I would not expect someone in computer engineering to learn anything about being an admin. That is like expecting a printing press repair person to be good at journalism because s/he can repair the printing press.
Sorry! My most humblest apologies for getting them bass ackwards. He can do the job.
As for the There were some good things. I think that learning at least a bit about art and music is important.
Posted by: KrisL at October 18, 2010 6:32 PM
I look at a picture of a bowl of fruit is a picture of a bowl of fruit. Beethoven, Bach, and the rest of it bore me to f'ing tears. Wagner has some interest. But that is limited.
I read the same book that was being read by the high school AP -- was it Methuselah's Tears -- it sucked.
If the author has a an afterword/forward -- that isn't what he thinking. Kiss my ass. The renaisance man is dead.
Jim P. at October 19, 2010 10:51 PM
@david foster -
In my opinion, it's both a lack of humility, humanity, and training that causes poor communication in medical settings.
When I went to college, we in the nursing program were required to take a mulitcultural communications class, and an interpersonal communications class. The pre med students weren't required to take any communications or writing classes. The argument was that they were too loaded down with the science requirements.
Yes, most of the skill of properly communicating with patients may seem like common sense, but trust me, it isn't. I've seen doctors tell patients bluntly "Well, you're going to die within the next two weeks," and walk out of the room. So maybe an interpersonal communications class, or else a swift kick in the nuts.
UW Girl at October 20, 2010 6:20 AM
The reason why degrees are now required]
is because 1) previous employer references are
no longer given; there is a chance
that you will be sued if you give a
bad one, or a good one.
2) It is a quick way to eliminate
obviously unqualified candidates
3) It is a way to limit entry into a
profession, thus making it more
remunerative by limiting supply.
Jack at October 21, 2010 5:31 AM
I heard somebody on a talk show this weekend say,
"College degrees have become overpriced merit badges for adults."
Very true. Unless you know what you want to do, and what you want to do requires college (not, people you want to hire you might require that you went to college), then college is pretty much a ripoff and a huge opportunity cost, especially if you go into debt for it. Debts which are no longer dischargeable by bankruptcy, by the way....
If you think you're smart enough that you don't need to go to college, you are smart enough to figure out how to get past the initial barriers when going after jobs you want. Sure, some companies will rigidly require a degree: these are rigid bureaucracies and you wouldn't like working there anyway. Thank them for not passing your litmus test and move on. If you don't think you can sidle past this hurdle, by all means go back to college and finish up with the easiest major you can find. Spend as little as possible.
I dropped out after 2 years of college and worked for 10 years at various things. Any one of those years was more valuable to me than my two years of classroom boredom.
At one point, I decided to try going back just to have the piece of paper, but dropped out again after taking 2 classes. It's amazing how much less arrogance and stupidity you're willing to put up with after you've been a self-supporting adult for a while.
Now, I'm over 50, still no degree, working in a technical field I started learning on my own nearly as a hobby in my late 20's. I was kind of shocked to notice last year that I'm getting into depth charge range of Obama's tax hikes.
Nobody's even asked me about a degree in 10 years, probably because I'm such a boring rant on the subject of what a crappy waste of time and money most "higher education" is.
Richard Mush at October 25, 2010 4:29 PM
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