I work in an industry where men heavily outweigh women, even despite several of the employers actively trying to employ more women.

The problem is always that there just aren't that many women who want to work in the field. I can't see that you could ever produce an equal outcome unless you started saying to women things like "forget what you want to do with your life, you're gonna be a _______, and you don't get any say in the matter".

Offtopic— Point taken.

PS— Will someone please run with this? We're in the United States, fer cryin' out loud...:

> I work in an industry where men
> heavily outweigh women

Feminist theory dictates that women can only choose freely if they choose what they are supposed to.

If they choose something their not supposed to, well thats just proof that they need more training, and their freedom to choose need to be curtailed until such time as thy do as their are told.

Isnt it odd how the women lib movement is far more oppresive then the mythical patriachy they conjure up as an opponent?

It's not just women - this is true of any group that is the subject of "social justice".

Blacks must achieve the same academic honors as anyone else. If they don't, it's discrimination. We are not allowed to consider black culture as a cause.

Women must be equally represented in the upper management of companies. If they don't, it's discrimination. We are not allowed to consider that few women want to spend decades clawing their way up the corporate ladder - your life *is* your job.

Less intelligent children must get the same grades as more intelligent children. If not, it's discrimination. We are not allowed to consider the fact that half of all children are - by definition - below average.

On top of all that, there are factors like motivation, hard work and simply luck. Society's job is simply to ensure that everyone has opportunity. What happens afterwards is a matter for the individuals concerned.

> I work in an industry where men
> heavily outweigh women

Sorry, I meant outnumber :)

No reference was intended to any women in our office, especially since there aren't any at the moment.

So where is the quota for too old, too slow, can't jump, can't shoot, can't dribble NBA stars? I want to apply. Think of the upside. I can't stay awake long enough to get into trouble partying and I'm too cheap to burn through all that money during a career. I'd be a credit to the league.

I thought about the NFL because there are fewer games, but it is too easy to get hurt.

I know most of the comments are going to be about the woman-thing because this is a blog that centers mostly on relationships and gender inequalities. But I find the thing about the judge and the firefighters way more interesting.

Where on earth did a *judge* get the idea that he had this kind of power?? Isn't there someone who supervises or oversees the Federal Judges who can call him on this? Where's the outcry about the abuse of power? I mean, this is WRONG. And kinda scary. I mean, I hear in the op-eds all the time about judges growing more... legislative in their decisions, but this is truly frightening!

THEY don't care. By setting the bar at proportional representation, these advocates will always have leverage to exert their demands. They're deliberately targeting an impossible outcome in order to advantage their position.

Also can we just acknowledge that people who call themselves Feminists are typically just bigots who've wrapped themselves in the mantle of a social crusade? I've lived and worked among Progressives all my life. They're honestly some of the most aggressively bigoted people I've ever met.

Just to comment on affirmative action in fire fighting - Women who want to be firefighters compete against the men, same weight, same reps. There isn't a special "let's make it easy on the ladies" category. If you can't pull the same time as the guys, you're out.

"Women who want to be firefighters compete against the men, same weight, same reps." That depends highly on the department. Some do have identical standards some have a written and confirmed double standard.

I keep noticing this - but have never found an explanation:
I've never seen a female member of a road crew in the UK (we go there frequently & do a lot of driving), yet that's not an especially unusual sight in the US.

(And the UK doesn't lack strong, well-fed women!)

Also can we just acknowledge that people who call themselves Feminists are typically just bigots who've wrapped themselves in the mantle of a social crusade?

Fine with me, as long as we can also acknowledge that people who carp on about the evil feminists do so because thinking about feminism as the complex social movement that it is is just too hard.

Feminists don't have any one approach to social issues any more than Libertarians or animal-rights activists do.

Feminism isn't a social movement, it's an ideology, and by trying to appeal to the complexity of it, you're basically ackowledging that bigotry is a significant aspect. Feminism has been given every opportunity to reinvent itself, but has only become more like a hate ideology.

jason doom, in stereotyping all feminists you show yourself to be the bigot.

Of course bigotry is an aspect of it. Bigotry is an aspect of everything humans have ever done, ever. Some feminists are hateful jerks. Life is like that.

But it's also full of different people with different ideas and approaches, and attributing the word "bigot" to such a large, complex group of people is lazy.

MonicaP: "Feminists don't have any one approach to social issues any more than Libertarians or animal-rights activists do."

You can hear the proof of this almost every time it's up for discussion. "I'm a feminist, but..."/ "I'm not a feminist, but...".

Anything else is sexism or racism, and surely you can't be for those? Amy
----
Absolutely. Look at what is happening in the States because your president was elected for being black rather than for being qualified.

A friend of mine used to work for GE until head office informed staff that from now on they would only be promoting visible minorities. Great. So all the white people who worked hard no longer had any reason to do their best. How utterly racist.

We are not allowed to consider the fact that half of all children are - by definition - below average.

The word you're looking for is median, literally the middle point. Only under a Gaussian (normal) distribution can one say mean=median=mode. Assuming you have a Gaussian distribution when dealing with people is, at best, flawed thinking.

Yes, yes, I'm being a pedantic prick. But mathematical constructs are precise, please use them that way. Innumeracy is a serious problem.

"A friend of mine used to work for GE until head office informed staff that from now on they would only be promoting visible minorities"

Wasn't the CEO of GE a white guy? Wasn't their head office full of white guys? When they came up with that policy, did they all do the right thing & resign, so that they could hand over their cushy jobs & comfy corner offices to more worthy black lesbian Muslims?

promoting visible minorities

Great, now this screws over all the invisible minorities.

Sorry. It slippped out.

Isn't there someone who supervises or oversees the Federal Judges who can call him on this?

Yes, it's the Circuit Court of Appeals, 2nd District. First, a 3 panel appeal, then a larger (11 memebers?) panel, then to the SCOTUS.

Interesting...why hasn't the City of New York filed an appeal? Judge Garaufis issued a summary judgement, saying that no facts where in dispute and that there was nothing for a jury to decide. That opened the door for an immediate appeal.

I've never seen a female member of a road crew in the UK (we go there frequently & do a lot of driving), yet that's not an especially unusual sight in the US.

And how many of them are operating heavy machinery, digging trenches, or working the material? and how many of them are directing traffic?

Feminists don't have any one approach to social issues

Tell that to the feminists. There is a Feminist Orthodoxy, and to pretend otherwise is to bury one's head in the sand. And if you don't believe, go back and look at how badly Sarah Palin was excoriated by the high priestesses when she dared declare herself a feminist.

...all the invisible minorities.

I believe you mean "refraction challenged" minorities.

Tell that to the feminists.

To pretend that so many people follow one grand priestess of all feminists is silliness. I certainly don't, and I'm a feminist. I have friends who are feminists, and we have plenty of disagreements.

For example, one friend of mine would vote for Palin for president entirely because she's a woman, despite hating her politics. I found that pretty revolting until I decided that democracy means people get to vote based on whatever appeals to them.

"There is a Feminist Orthodoxy" There is a Jewish orthodoxy too. Is is as representative of the average jew as is my house cat. Same as tea baggers who get dinged for the bigot dip shits proporting to represent the party.

On the other hand since all the fucking crazies are taking a certain label are you sure you want to use it to define yourself? If a word has taken on a certain connotation in the vernacular you can poo poo about it all you want. It changes nothing. If you are a self defined feminist what horrible injustices are you now trying to correct wrt gender?

Why do injustices have to be horrible? Why can't they be your average run-of-the-mill stuff, like correcting poor access to birth control and abortion, and encouraging women to take up careers in science? Of course, if we're looking for horrible injustices, we can talk about honor killings and genital mutilation.

Feminism has accomplished much, and I wish a lot of women would stop going on about being oppressed by men, since it makes them look ridiculous.

I don't feel the need to find a new label for what I am because some people have a problem with it any more than I'm going to start calling myself a "womyn" because some nutjubs decided "woman" was sexist. It's a perfectly good word.

I R A Darth.. just because some femms shout the loudest, doesn't mean they are the leaders...
however,

"Feminists don't have any one approach to social issues"

Sure, they do, that's why they call themselves feminists. It would be the same if they called themselves Humanists, or Buddists. It's an approach to life itself. That being said, there certainly may be individuals with individual questions and individual beliefs that differ some, and never is that more apparent than when the question of abortion comes up. Feminism seems to have a rift on the question in some places, where other places Pro-Choice is considered a requirement.

Elsewise, I am so glad Wendy wrote this up, becuase it's a clear encapsulation of how levelling a playing field isn't the same as an outcome.

Maybe we should just have everything divvied up between the different races, like what they do in Singapore or Malaysia. Where people of different races do not even pretend to like each other. We can do it with men and women too and bring on the naked hostility. This is going to be the outcome of identity politics.

F-affirmative action, big time. One of the most socially destructive dumb ideas ever.

Feminists, both male and female, appear to believe that women are basically pathetic retards who can only be "empowered" by the external assistance of feminism. Ironically, this nasty bit of ideology is, at its heart, the institutionalized glorification of the "masculine" role, and the denigration of the "feminine" role, even as women are celebrated as "goddesses" and men are vilified as dangerous, perverse, and/or inept. (Think of what was going on in Mark David Chapman's mind as he pumped bullets into John Lennon -- good ol' Mark desparately wanted to be John, so John had to go, right? How can men be allowed to remain men when women now want to "the man"?)

Female feminists are generally wounded and/or unbalanced, on the one hand, or sociopathic narcissists on the other.

Male feminists are insecure sycophants who are in fact really the most sexist of men -- believing that women need help from "white knights" like themselves. Of course, they can never really understand why women generally react to their self-neutering obsequiousness with disgust.

These days the terms "feminist" and "Stalinist" are in the same camp -- and all the pretty words about what "real" feminism is all about can't change what we have had a chance to see in action for the last 40 years. Not pretty. Sad for women, really, but I am well on my way to not giving a sh*t.

>>We are not allowed to consider the fact
>>that half of all children are - by
>>definition - below average.

>The word you're looking for is median,
>literally the middle point. Only under a
>Gaussian (normal) distribution can one say
>mean=median=mode.
>Yes, yes, I'm being a pedantic prick.

The median and standard distribution vary, but - given sufficiently large samples - you do get pretty much a normal distribution. My statement is still not perfectly accurate (since some people are exactly average), but it is close enough for the point I wanted to make.

>>On the other hand since all the fucking crazies are taking a certain label are you sure you want to use it to define yourself?

C'mon, vlad.

Suppose you were having a conversation in a bar and began your sentence, appropriately & mildly: "Actually, as a man - I've often found..."

And some broad turned on you - shrieking: "Oh, so we have to listen because you're a man, do we? Everyone shut up, a man is about to address us! We can't say anything until a man has spoken!"

Who is the crazy one in that exchange?

I'm also glad you linked to this, Amy. If people truly want to see more women and minorities in careers like firefighting, we need to address why they don't go into those fields (or fail the test when they try). Establishing quotas to increase the number of unqualified firefighters doesn't address why minorities are reading at a lower level than whites in NYC.

"like correcting poor access to birth control and abortion, and encouraging women to take up careers in science?" MonicaP

This in a nutshell proves Wendy's point. In the 8 miles radius between my home and work there are HUNDREDS of places to get contraceptives, dirt cheap and many are open 24 hours a day.

Plus?

She could just say "No." or "No, unless you slip Mr. Happy into a raincoat, so you better bring some." She doesn't have to provide it at all. Women are the gate keeper, so they are also in complete control. This is ALSO tru in Cabrini Green, or East LA. Straw[wo]man.

What if the women who want to be in science, are actually already IN science? Sciences are not just some job, they require an aptitude. This is why I gave up on the Nuclear Physiscs. I couldn't handle the level of Math required for the degree. That doesn't mean I don't know a lot, but not enough to make it a career. AeroSpace Engineering the same. Don't impeede women from getting into science, but don't be surprised of they simply aren't interested.

You don't need to shout encouragement for any one area to a woman... just tell her to do what she wishes, with the caveat that not everyone is able to do everything, based on their own abilities.

The blocks to adequate birth control and entry into the sciences often aren't legal, they're psychological. Which is why I'm not a fan of setting quotas and creating laws to control this stuff. It won't help, and it just pisses people off.

I see nothing wrong with feminists wanting to raise funding for scholarships for women in science careers, for example, or develop comprehensive sex ed programs. These are the kinds of things that help women advance and don't hurt men at all, and are entirely appropriate for someone who calls himself/herself a feminist to do.

MonicaP, you called it injustice. That seems to indicate that this is NOT psychological, which woiuld be internal, but is an external block.
On this you need to make up your mind.

"Actually, as a man - I've often found..." I'd ask to be smacked if I began any sentence like that. Any particular reason I need to start with my gender? Any reason you need to point out your gender?

As as a access to BC and education, that's purely a class issue and upbringing issue. Either someone taught you about birth control and the importance of education or they did not.

In some cases it is injustice. Not all communities have as easy access to birth control as yours (or if they do, they make it hard for underage girls to get it). Some women have to drive across state lines to get an abortion because fundies have made it impossible for them to get a perfectly legal one where they live. Purely anecdotal, but I hear a lot more horror stories about women trying to get sterilized than I do about men trying to get sterilized.

These are not injustices on par with honor killings, and I won't pretend they are, but they are matters that need to be addressed.

In other cases, there are simply ways in which women's lives could be improved, and there's no reason not to take the opportunity to do so.

Sometimes men's issues and women's issues are the same issues, like in the trend to treat all men like potential pedophiles. Men get shafted and women become increasingly entrenched in the role of caregiver by necessity when fathers are slammed for taking care of their own children. That's certainly an injustice for both genders.

>>"Actually, as a man - I've often found..." I'd ask to be smacked if I began any sentence like that. Any particular reason I need to start with my gender? Any reason you need to point out your gender?

vlad,
Say, the chat had turned to the noticeably avant garde shape of the seats on the bar stools?

As I undergraduate in comp sci, my class was about 40% female. On the job, it was generally about 10%. I wondered why.

I met a young lady who told me her personal experience. She had gone to college for CS and liked it fine. But work was different. In school she was doing her assignments in a room with a bunch of her classmates where they would joke around and have fun and interact. In work, she was expected to sit in a cube for 8 hours a day without much interaction with co-workers. So she was changing careers to something more social. The environments matched my college/early career experience.

but Monica, they control the gate, they can still say NO. And that is why I mentioned Cabrini Green in Chicago and East LA, both places that I have been many times, there is no lack of available contraceptives...

But for men and women themselves each as individuals, contraception is their OWN decision, and it is they who make their minds up, to do or not do.

This has nothing to do with going across state lines, and EVERYTHING to do with giving people agency and telling them to make their own decision... and then forcing them to take responsibility for it.

This is the difference in thought processes. Can everything be made better by making sure that the magical governemnt fairey shows up to put contraception under your pillow every night? Oh, but then will they even use it? This is like the question about how much more appealing you can make free food by not calling it foodstamps.

This does nothing to foster the idea that you are responsible for yourself. This is something that cannot be mandated by a government.

"Where on earth did a *judge* get the idea that he had this kind of power?? "

Reminds me of the school-busing debacle of the 1970s. At various points there were certain judges who decided to appoint themselves lord and master of which schools every single child in the city would be assigned to. And yes, that was waaaaay beyond their constitutional authority. I'm with Aggie; I don't understand why NYC isn't appealing this. Maybe they're still working on the paperwork.

Also this: I never thought I'd see the day when Michael freakin' Bloomberg would be taking a stand against political correctness. Maybe he's finally getting enough salt in his diet.

If bigotry is such a small part of feminism, explain why its most bigotted stances recieve such broad support and its most bigotted leaders become such popular figures?

Saying you're a feminist that isn't bigotted is like joining the KKK over its stance on immigration.

-------------

Why hasn't the city filed an appeal? Fuck that, why haven't they simply IGNORED HIM?

Judicial power is not unlimited. As Andrew Jackson once said of a judge, "He's made his ruling now let's see him enforce it."

---------

Poor access to birth control? Who in America has that problem?

Other countries sure, but in my line of work its the opposite problem. Unlimited access for free, and instead they choose not to use it so they can get knocked up to avoid deployment.

----------

Feminism hasn't accomplished as much as it would like to think. And it has done a helluva lot more harm than good.
----------

And by the by, it is still pretty revolting to vote based on gender, yes people CAN vote based on what appeals to them, that doesn't make a bad decision any better.

----------

"The blocks to adequate birth control and entry into the sciences often aren't legal, they're psychological"~MonicaP

mwhuh? Howsat work exactly? I'm 32 years old and I've been in coed schools my whole life, in places from Texas to Ohio and on down the east coast...and I've never heard so much as a word against girls in science classes.
----------

"Purely anecdotal, but I hear a lot more horror stories about women trying to get sterilized than I do about men trying to get sterilized." Yes but that has more do to with law suites. My wife was looking for an IUD and most doctors wouldn't even touch her. The reason being that there is a very small risk of permanent sterility. All she would have to do to get a pay day was cry about never being a mom to a jury. It's sad but there is plenty of case law to back the paranoia.

"Say, the chat had turned to the noticeably avant garde shape of the seats on the bar stools?" Is this on of those inie vs outie things? Not sure how that is affected by my having shit dangling down there. Now skirt vs pants yes but girls wear pants and guys wear kilts.

Now I'll buy the point that in rural south access to birth control is limited. You have condoms at every red neck bodega I've ever been in, though it maybe hours away. WRT abortion well if it were used as intended, a last resort there would be very few of them. But yes in rural Kentucky you won't find many clinics abortion or otherwise. That makes this a poverty issue not a wymins issue . Yes I know that last one was really juvenile.

Calling my mom a feminist will likely get you smacked but she is what those dumb bitch dream of being. Has law degrees in 2 countries one she earned while having two small children. That is where I get my fundamental contempt for stay at homes. If she can get a law degree what's your excuse. The local law firms refused to hire her, due to both her accent and her in experince. So she starts her own firm. Now she's either first or second in immigration in her state. Several large firms offered her a position. Her response was "Where the fuck were you when I was starting out, no fuck off."

I judge feminism harshly because it's bullshit. The idea that I got shit handed to me because I was born male is fucking bullshit and that is the core philosophy. Same with all the race bating bullshit. I was bullied a hell of a lot for being Russian. This idea that whites accept other whites is fucking nonsense.

>>"Say, the chat had turned to the noticeably avant garde shape of the seats on the bar stools?" Is this on of those inie vs outie things? Not sure how that is affected by my having shit dangling down there. Now skirt vs pants yes but girls wear pants and guys wear kilts.

vlad,
You took so long to reply, I forgot what my clever response was going to be! (So I went home with the barman.)

What if the women who want to be in science, are actually already IN science? SwillArmyD
-------
Actually, women make up more the 50% of engineering students in Canadian universities today. There are even complaints because women now domininate in fields that were once (even twenty years ago) male only.

Twenty-five years ago, when I was in high school, my math teacher would not acknowledge female students who and actually told us that women didn't belong in maths and sciences. I was actually literally forced out of drafting class by the teacher and students because I had the gall to be the first female in the school who tried to take a class that only men should take.

As for birthcontrol, yes, in most western countries we NOW have access to birth control but try getting birth control anywhere else in the world.

The anti-feminists on this site must choose to be deliberately blind to the subjegation of women around the world. Rape as a way to control the population, female genital mutilation, killing rape victims, denying females an education and murdering those who try to go to school. Denying women the right to birthcontrol, forced marriages. Needing a man's written permission to leave the house.

Wasn't the CEO of GE a white guy? Wasn't their head office full of white guys? When they came up with that policy, did they all do the right thing & resign, so that they could hand over their cushy jobs & comfy corner offices to more worthy black lesbian Muslims? Martin
---------------
Martin,
I don't understand your point. Just because GE instituted a policy to no longer promote white people does not mean white people were forced to quite their jobs. For your information, Lesbians are not a visible minority.

To pretend that so many people follow one grand priestess of all feminists is silliness. I certainly don't, and I'm a feminist. I have friends who are feminists, and we have plenty of disagreements.
Posted by: MonicaP

And yet, feminist theory claim the existance of a shadowy cabal know as the patriarchy where white mens marching orders in their treatment of each other and others are handed down from on high.

How the fuck is that any less ludacris? Any yet feminists proclaim it to be tru all the time.

I think that the easiest way to end such silly quotas is to apply them fairly and equally to areas/professions where whites or men are under-represented. i.e. teaching, nursing, social workers, therapists etc.
Make the quotas or rules for Affermative Action apply to teaching just as they are applied to fire depts.
In a short time there will be screaming in the streets, for the obvious removal of AA policies.

Or apply title 9 to cheerleading, that it will be cut in size until there are a proportional number of men in cheerleading.

First: AA is stupid. It doesn't solve any problems, it just masks them by forcing people without the skills to get jobs they aren't qualified for. If a person needs AA to get the job, he/she shouldn't have it.

Second: Birth Control and education aren't as easy for some to get as it is for others. Try getting the pill in the South without a wedding ring on...You can have a valid script and the pharmacist will refuse to issue it to you because you shouldn't need it. Thank you morality clauses...

Education generally requires money and the belief that you can get it. Are the lack of these things caused by bigotry or the 'patriarchy'? I don't believe so, but they are things that can be solved...through scholarships (linked to a talent or accomplishment) and having great mentors or teachers. Having come from a poor uneducated family, if I hadn't had women along the way repeatedly tell me that there was a way out, I would have never seen it. It wouldn't have been caused by men pushing me down, it would have been caused by no women having the guts to help me up.

Third: We need to place greater emphasis on math and science in general. I've always wondered why a kid in the hood will take a job selling drugs, shooting guns, and being a scape goat for less than McDonald's pays when he can get a job shooting guns and being a scape goat that includes, medical, dental, vision, retirement, food, clothing, and shelter plus a paycheck in the military. The money is about 17k a year, but that is probably better than he is making now. You want a kid to be able to make those decisions himself? Teach him/her math. Want a kid to understand the world? Teach him/her science. Want a kid to be able to earn a living, ensure he/she has an education. It isn't about color or genitals, it is a matter of our expectations as a society.

-Julie W

Some years ago I began to wonder exactly how interested women were in penetrating every area of masculine achievement, including firefighting. Certainly there would be no barriers to entering the volunteer service, right?

If they were into it, I mean.

But I wanted solid numbers. So I wrote to an enterprise called Women in the Fire Service, Inc.

This enterprise is apparently closed for business.

_____________________________________________

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 17:59:59 -0600

To: _____Crid____

From: t______@wfsi.org (Terese ______)

Subject: Re: Statistic help?

Hello, ____ --

There are approximately 5,000 female career firefighters in the U.S., out of 260,000 total career firefighters, so that 's something over 2%.

The numbers for volunteers are anyone's guess. Most states don't even know how many volunteer firefighters they have, let alone how many are men, women, white black, etc. I've seen national estimates for volunteer firefighters from 750,000 to 1.25 million -- a huge variance. Reasonably one might guess that the percentage of women in the volunteer service is slightly higher than it is in the career sector -- maybe 3% -- but that is only an educated guess, nothing more.

Hope this is helpful.

-- TM ______

WFS

"I don't understand your point"

It's the blatant hypocrisy, Ingrid. If a company declares that it will only promote minorities, then hard-working white male employees will be denied the promotions that they have earned, for no reason other than the color of their skin or the configuration of their genitals. And they will have to sit & watch those promotions go to people who've done nothing to deserve them. Meanwhile, the high-ranking executives who came up with this policy have already been promoted as far as they can go, so they will sacrifice nothing for the cause of affirmative action while demanding that their employees sacrifice everything. The only reasonable response to this sort of thing is to quit & look for greener pastires elsewhere.

greener pastures...

Interesting study done in the US. The incidence of female performers in orchestras was incredibly low until they started auditioning performers behind screens so that the gender of the applicant was unknown. It was found that when the gender of the performers was known the male would be hired but when the gender was unknown the incidence of women being hired increased dramatically.
http://www.faculty.diversity.ucla.edu/search/searchtoolkit/docs/articles/Orchestrating_Impartiality.pdf

Thank you, Martin, for the clarification.
I would point out that GE was not discriminating by gender just race so even white women were told they would be denied promotion.

Of course, the feminists are proven hypocrites.
Two words:

Sara Palin

Julie W - "Try getting the pill in the South without a wedding ring on...You can have a valid script and the pharmacist will refuse to issue it to you because you shouldn't need it. Thank you morality clauses..."

The South of WHERE? Ireland? Cause it sure ain't America, honey. I live in the Heart of Dixie and you are wrong. And a touch crazy, bless your little heart.

"The anti-feminists on this site must choose to be deliberately blind to the subjegation of women around the world. Rape as a way to control the population, female genital mutilation, killing rape victims, denying females an education and murdering those who try to go to school. Denying women the right to birthcontrol, forced marriages. Needing a man's written permission to leave the house."

And this is the fault of Western white men, how?

Cousin Dave,

It's not. It's the same old tired strawman tactic of moving the goalpost, that is always used. Let me switch a couple of things in her post:

The feminists on this site must choose to be deliberately blind to the subhuman treatment of men around the world. Male genital mutilation, which happens right here in the US, but strange that feminists never care about that.

Higher rates of suicide, workplace deaths (almost entirely male), denying men the right to be a parent to their children (abortion, divorce, paternity fraud).

What isn't mentioned either, is that in most of those places where females aren't allowed an education, neither are the males (they always seem to leave out the part where the males are denied things, just as females are.

If things are so damn bad in those places, I'm willing to buy a plane ticket for those feminists who are willing to head over there and fight for those things, in those countries where they happen.

Somehow, I doubt a single one would ever take me up on that.

I'll believe Feminists have integrity when they defend women like Sarah Palin, who get mauled by the press because she's a Conservative. Feminist's kind of have the Jesse Jackson thing going on, ambulance chasers, if you catch my drift.

So, Ingrid, WHERE do you live? When I was in college at the University of Arizona 25 years ago there were some very interesting girls in my drafting class, and a totally cute one was my partner using the primative CAD workstations at the time. 30 years ago in a public highschool in NewMexico over half my advanced science classes were girls, and not only did they go to state science fair just like anyone else, they kicked my but in the judging, at the STATE level. When I moved to a religious high school, my favortie math tutor was a girl... she was an ace, and she went to stanford. and then? She decided to settle down and have a family, and hasn't worked in the outside work world since.

It was her decision NOT to swim in the sciences or engineering, though she could have easily done so. Am I to second guess that?

Oh, and? The things you speak of where women are being oppressed worldwide? Huh.
Seems to me that is the definition of ISLAM.