Don't Be Too Quick To Be Feeding The Hungry
Not without a license, that is. Walter Olson blogs at Overlawyered about a church that had to shut down its program to feed the poor because they weren't licensed as a commercial food prep facility. He quotes commenter "Density Duck":
...Our local church had to shut down its Feed-The-Hungry operation (where a bunch of retired housewives cooked simple meals and froze them to give to the local soup kitchen.) The reason is that the church kitchen wasn't certified as a commercial food-preparation facility, as one of the lawyers in the congregation helpfully pointed out to the lady in charge of the program.
Walter's covered the issue before:
The Health Department in Middletown, Connecticut issued a "citation against St. Vincent DePaul Place on Tuesday for accepting some donated food from unlicensed kitchens. The department has asked the nonprofit group, which runs a soup kitchen, to comply with the health code by accepting food that comes only from licensed kitchens."
The best, though, was the comment GregS was smart enough to leave on Overlawyered, but the elected officials killing the Feed-The-Hungry program weren't smart enough (or didn't care enough) to figure out:
Fortunately, those hungry soup kitchen patrons can fall back on the more hygienic alternative of dining on the food they find in local dumpsters and garbage cans.
And a sort of related suggestion: If you don't return your bottles for the deposit, get bags when you go to the grocery store and put the bottles out in the bags next to the trash bin so people who live by returning collectables don't have to go through the bin.
This actually makes me a little sad. Has the modern western society gone so legalistic and PC that helping people is against the law?
I can not wait to see in the news of some little old grannies and church ladies being swooped upon by a swat team and arrested for giving unlicensed sandwiches.
John Paulson at November 12, 2010 3:15 AM
"Has the modern western society gone so legalistic and PC that helping people is against the law?"
In a nutshell: yes.
I want to ask a more general question: why does a kitchen require a license? Such things should follow the principle of "innocent until proven guilty": the government should assume that your kitchen is sanitary and competently run - unless there is credible evidence to the contrary.
Only if problems turn up - a failed health inspection, multiple guests complaining of food poisoning, whatever - only then should the government have any reason to impose restrictions.
Let me point out, btw, that having a license is no guarantee at all that a kitchen is either sanitary or competently run. Anyone can put on a good show for long enough to get a license. What happens afterwards is a completely different question...
bradley13 at November 12, 2010 4:23 AM
"Has the modern western society gone so legalistic and PC that helping people is against the law?"
As bradley13 said, "Yes."
It's very simple. If the poor and needy can't rely on help from their neighbors, the only place to turn for "help" is the government.
Tom at November 12, 2010 4:31 AM
Licensing is one of the franchises of government. By operating without a license, they are diminishing the value of that franchise. This is why they had to be stopped. It's not about public safety, it's about the standing of the local government and their ability to command respect and obedience.
jojo at November 12, 2010 6:52 AM
I believe, in many places, it's illegal for a kid to have a bake sale. Not often enforced, but I blogged about one occasion where it was in the past.
Amy Alkon at November 12, 2010 6:59 AM
Time to start revoking some government authority.
Robert at November 12, 2010 6:59 AM
Here's a story from Food Renegade:
http://www.foodrenegade.com/do-you-eat-illegal-baked-goods/
More interesting thoughts on this at the link.
Amy Alkon at November 12, 2010 7:01 AM
We're ruled by greed and fear.
Pricklypear at November 12, 2010 7:50 AM
I'm in Conn, and I can attest to this craziness.
Our Masonic lodge is used by a local soup kitchen during the day. We have had to upgrade the facilities so they could pass the health inspection. Same people doing the same cooking on the same equipment. The only thing that changed was some lighting and a few odd pieces of equipment.
And like in Middletown, we recently discovered that we could no longer donate the overage from meals that we've made the night before, or accept home-made goods from members wanting to donate to the kitchen.
Our lodge also used to take donations from the large church across the street, which often had leftovers after large events. Now that food has to be tossed because, naturally, the church does not have a commercial prep license.
Now, I do understand the concern. It is possible that somebody might cook something that becomes tainted from improper handling. I can well imagine a situation in which somebody gets violently ill (or worse, dies), and then tries to sue the food bank or soup kitchen. Then, how far back does it go? Will the person who made the stew in their home kitchen then be liable?
Tom Accuosti at November 12, 2010 7:50 AM
Why just the homeless? Why just fundraisers? Why not shut down the neighborhood barbecue unless we ask a bureaucrat's permission (and give him the first pickings off the grill to boot).
"It is possible that somebody might cook something that becomes tainted from improper handling." Wha? (waves hand dismissively, blows raspberry). There are plenty of restaurants that poison people everyday, their certifications paid for, proudly displayed on their greasy walls, put up there by E. Coli contaminated hands. Can't tell you how many times I got food poisoning from the dorm cafeteria at my state university. Horrible feeling, still can't look at a chicken patty sammich without tasting that "urp-whoa?!?!" taste. And they were certified. Not worth the paper it's written on.
Juliana at November 12, 2010 8:27 AM
Time to start revoking some government authority.
Way past time, I think!
I got upset when I was told my girls could no longer bring cookies or cupcakes to class on their birthdays. That was a tradition my mom started when we were in grade school, and a lot of other moms followed suit. No more! For #1's 10th birthday, when she was in 5th grade (the year after we were told no more cookies, cupcakes, brownies, etc.) we made jell-o jigglers in star shapes. They got sent home. She was sad, I was MAD.
And now this.
There are plenty of restaurants that poison people everyday, their certifications paid for, proudly displayed on their greasy walls, put up there by E. Coli contaminated hands.
Exactly, Juliana.
And on kind of a related note, I went to Max Ferguson's opening last night in New York before I went to see Ian Hunter. (Fabulous! Wonderful paintings, they even had some of his black and white proofs on the walls next to the finished paintings. His work is just so meticulous, and I still love "Central Park Nocturne" it's just beautiful.) The staff was pouring wine and serving little corned beef on rye sammiches, and little pigs in a blanket and other finger foods. Not a license in sight. It would be a crying shame if the gubmint came down on these gallerys for serving finger foods and wine at openings, wouldn't it?
Amy, Max said to tell you "Hi" and he hopes you're well. He signed his catalogue for me! He's such a sweet guy, took the time to talk to a LOT of people who approached him.
Flynne at November 12, 2010 9:12 AM
Hi Tom! Are you related to Steve Accuosti? He lives with one of my friends from high school in Indiana. I was just wondering because he spells his last name like you do, and his dad lives in Southbury, CT. I live in Milford (which is where my friend is from. She and Steve used to live here too).
Flynne at November 12, 2010 9:17 AM
Those inspections and certifications create jobs for bureaucrats. I'll let you be the judge of how much safer your food is.
My opinion was formed when I worked as a dishwasher in a restaurant as a kid. It was solidified by a long running epidemic of hepatitis A in this county a few years ago. For those who don't know, it is a relatively mild form of the disease spread by folks not properly washing their hands after taking a dump. Cases were turning up for months after the initial diagnosis and the mandates to wear disposable gloves while preparing food.
You went to High School with some of these underachievers. They couldn't follow directions then, and nothing has improved since. The health inspector is not watching them wash their hands.
On the bright side, if anybody died, it would be on the news, so the managers and owners do care. The health inspector won't lose his job, so you decide how much you think he helps.
MarkD at November 12, 2010 9:24 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/11/12/dont_be_too_qui_1.html#comment-1781051">comment from FlynneFlynne, I'm so thrilled you went to Max's opening. Just wish I could've been there. I have the catalogue...it's incredibly moving.
Amy Alkon at November 12, 2010 10:15 AM
If its private property... can't you feed your guests? Am I gonna have to get a permit for my next dinner party? Isn't a Church private property?
NicoleK at November 12, 2010 11:49 AM
In my restaurant days, I ran into that too: we could not give homeless people the food that we had left at the end of the night to eat. However, if we threw it in the dumpster, then they were allowed to eat it.
Cousin Dave at November 12, 2010 5:12 PM
I worked in a family restaurant as a dishwasher and sometimes assistant cook.
We would save the whole buns and toast that came back for use in making the stuffing. We would make a five gallon bucket of brown gravy on a Sunday and use it up or pitch it the next week. Occasionally it would develop mold -- we would scrape it and pitch the effected area and use the rest. They knew when they were going to be inspected and the week beforehand it was scrub to the walls. But at the same time -- we were never accused of food poisoning and had a full restaurant most dinner hours and all night Friday and all day Saturday. Sunday morning was a killer -- we would run out of plates.
I also later worked for a couple years in a soup kitchen at a church on Saturdays in a Texas town. (I was USAF and so were the rest of our volunteers on saturday.) I don't remember if they had a commercial license. I know the "customers" were, in general, grateful for the meal. Some donated some of their spare change.
Allowing the government to control charity is the wrong solution. This is the same thing as the government taking out the "orphanages" with the Human Services/CPS system. I worked as a security guard at an orphanage for several months. Most of the kids did okay. Those kids who were having issues were counseled -- but the large majority did well with the standards of the orphanage. I have as yet to hear that someone did as well in foster care system. There may be some great foster parents out there -- but a large majority aren't equipped to handle disturbed kids.
Just my $0.02.....
Jim P. at November 12, 2010 9:27 PM
Wow. Why it this so hard to get right?
For instance, the BATFE actually allows you to sell a gun to anyone you wish, without a Federal Form 4473, if you are not "engaged in the business" of selling guns. The sole arbiter of whether you are in that business is, of course, BATFE. But some of them recognize that Uncle Bob might want a few bucks for his pistol since he doesn't need it, and that generally, criminals do not get their guns this way.
Inspection are done on food prep facilities before startup to keep you from getting sick. What mental disease do you have that says you want consumer protection when you buy a can of soup at Whole Foods, but you give that up at the buffet?
Is it the same one that says since some places with inspections are filthy dives, the inspections should be done away with?
Once again: be consistent. Do you, or do you not, want consumer protections on commercially-prepared food?
So the solution is to simply recognize that people other than businesses feed people. End of fracas!
Radwaste at November 14, 2010 3:31 PM
I need help with this too! Thanks. BTW, if anyone needs to fill out a 2008 ATF 4473 form, I found a blank form here http://goo.gl/9RRGn6
katherine at January 6, 2015 3:24 PM
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