ow sickening! The comment from the Consumerist says it all. I'm sure the boy had his hands all over everything in the store at that point, and an employee finally had enough. Strangely I never had this problem when my kids were toddlers - because I made them ride in the cart! I never would have been so stupid as to have a 2 year old roam free in a store. Maybe at age 4 minimum, and even then they would be absolutely told not to touch anything.

You know, even NOW my kids don't run away from and roam all over the store touching everything, and they're teen-agers! I didn't allow it when they were younger, unlike a lot of other parents I've seen. I remember one incident at the mall, I think the girls were maybe 6 and 3, or thereabouts, and they were watching in horror as these two little boys, probably close in age to them at the time, were jumping all over all the displays and pulling toys off the shelves, trying to pull the packaging off and throwing them around when they couldn't get it off, and their mothers were just standing there talking to each other, like these kids didn't even exist. I wish I had said something, but it was 2 of them and only one of me, so I just turned around and us the hell out of there.

It's never okay to grab another's kid (saving they are about to fling themselves off a cliff), just like it's not ever okay to slap your spouse. 2 year olds are quick, and he COULD have made the 5 feet from the customer service desk to the employment computer in 2 seconds or less. You can't chain your toddler to yourself, not can you just not do errands for several years. Yes, he may have been letting his kid run wild, or he might have taken his sight away for 2 seconds, and been going to grab the kid himself when this happened. Either way, the woman was an idiot and opened herself and the store up to a lawsuit.

Karen, my 18 month old can unbuckle the cart straps and be up ready to take a header in the time it takes me to swipe a credit card. Carts aren't always the answer. They can help though. Not that Kohl's HAS carts.

Bottom line-someone grabs my kid, I'm going to think lawsuit (or at least getting them fired) too. "We don't put our hands on other people" is the sort of thing one should learn in kindergarten. And we just don't have enough info here to know if daddy's crappy or not.

Really MO4 you would sue or put an end to someone's livelihood for such a small thing? What is meant by grabbed? I doubt seriously that this child was actually manhandled to that point were a lawsuit or a firing was necessary. It is just this kind of extreme thinking which has remendered school hallways chaos zones and led to teachers being unable to teach. Every offense against my child must be reported to the authorities and PUNISHED. I have a friend like this. She drops notes to the administration every time her little angels feel they have been treated wrongly. I just chuckle to myself every time she shares one of these stories. All she has done is teach her kids to complain about everything and constantly be on the look out for situatations that aren't "fair". MO4, if this is how you think, be prepared to be hated by every teacher in the school.

"It's never okay to grab another's kid"

Bullshit.

Whatever you think of Mrs. Clinton, she had a good point with that "it takes a village" stuff.

I live in South Korea now. The culture here is such that anyone on a crowded city bus will think nothing of cracking a misbehaving kid on the top of their head with a middle knuckle. It doesn't hurt them too much and leaves no mark. When the kid goes whining to the mother about it, the mother's answer is always, "What the hell did you do to deserve that?" She then gives the kid another crack on the top of the head.

The result? There are a lot of very respectful, polite kids in this society that will grow up to be well adjusted, successful, and polite adults.

If someone hit my kid, I would sue. If someone grabbed my kid's hand to keep him from touching something, no I would not sue because I'm not hysterical that way. I might be mad at the employee for grabbing my kid, in which I would complain to the manager. But I only would be mad if I was standing right there and the employee was not letting me handle it (yes, that could be the case here, but I have my doubts). If I was really not paying attention then I would not feel that I even had the right to be angry.

Momof4, the point isn't whether Daddy's "crappy"; it's not a value judgment on parenting.

The point is whether the child was misbehaving. He was, and by the father's own admission.

And it doesn't sound like the child's misbehavior was the end of the world (sad to say, we've all seen worse). But you know what? It's not the end of the world either if a store employee stops the misbehavior.

I like the real-estate-agent euphemism analogy. More analogies I've heard:

"Spirited" = "Difficult to discipline."

"Restless" = "He was running around."

"Fussing quietly" = "The baby was wailing loud enough that people were giving us looks."

Was the kid out of control? Almost definately.
Did the worker overstep bounds? probably not but maybe.

What can he do now?
Easy and best solution, He and the kid never shop in that store again. He gets the moral highground of a personal boycott they loose one customer they would rather not have a win - win for everyone.

People have a right to protect their property and their employers property. Granted, I think the employee should have requested the parent control the kid first, but they may actually have already done that, or gotten flack from the parent of some 'little angel' for doing so in the past. The guy didn't say his kid was crying, he said he was 'about to cry'. The kid wasn't hurt, just scared/startled. And being scared by a stranger who didn't actually mean him any harm is better than wondering off and getting hurt/killed, and may actually help prevent that from happening in the future.

I'm sure Darren would have paid for anything his kid broke.

Actually, I'm sure the rest of us would be forced to pay for anything the kid broke. Later, when he's in a hospital visiting grandpa, he can have all sorts of fun playing with the machines.

Reminds me of this story from alt.support.childfree (a group that is far less interesting than it once was):

This is by Jennifer Landry.

As I am walking to the pharmacy counter in the back, two hellsproggen, approximately ages 8 and 10, come barreling around the corner and crash right into me. I say "Uh, guys, this isn't a playground. Maybe you need to be slowing down and watching where you are going eh?" Doesn't the YOUNGER one give me a saucy eye and lip "Yah, fuck off lady", whereupon they both go barreling the other way.

Now, I am not big into blaming kids for their behavior, not until they get to be teenagers, at any rate. I figure they are like dogs, myrmidons like Elizabeth says, and they aren't any better than their training. So I am ready to let this go. I wasn't hurt, the whole thing was done. Until I come around the corner to hear "Mom, we couldn't get the candy, some lady was in the way and wouldn't move." There stands Moo, absently nodding at the kid as she .......and here is where I just had to start smiling because it was too good an opportunity to pass up..... checks out the condoms, plainly intending to make a purchase. Thank you so much to whomever it was who did this in the past and inspired me. I walk up to her and say "Ma'am, your children just crashed into me, and when I asked them to slow it down, chose to respond with profanity. Do you find that sort of behavior acceptable?" Whereupon I was treated to the bovine look we all know so well, and in the whiniest voice I have ever heard out of an adult, "Well, I'm sure they didn't mean nothin' by it!". While she hugged one to each side, plainly intending to defend them from the mean crazy lady.

I knew this was a lost cause. The location was just too perfect though. I grabbed a 6 pack of Trojans without ever losing eye contact with the silly bint, dropped them in her hand basket, and said "Never mind. Just do the world a favor and use those so you don't create any more like those two. Have a nice day!" And brushed past her to go get my scripts. The poor pharmacist who witnessed all this had to go in between the rows of medicines so Moo wouldn't see the tears rolling down his face as he tried not to die laughing.

She beat feet for the front registers. With the condoms.

(end)

Most of the better stories in that ng are under "spine" or "spinal."

Check these out, too - search on the following phrases within the ng:

"Snape" plus "it is nice" (this one's definitely funny)

"tried to get out of a moving car" (that's not the climax of the horror story, unbelievably - these are foster kids, aged 2 and 4)

Teachers like me, sheep. Mostly, I think, because they really like my kids. It's easy to like kids who have never once in 2.5ish years of school, gotten anything but green on their behavior. Would you be okay with some stranger grabbing you if you were doing something they didn't like? I doubt it. Why should kids' bodies be less inviolate?

No one's application is getting deleted because a kid hits a button. They aren't stored in that machine, they are networked off immediately upon submitting. Let's not be hysterical, shall we?

Yes, call ME hysterical if you will, but I am not going to be calm about someone grabbing my kid. Mostly, because I would be right there, and there'd be no need to save someone wanting to bully someone smaller. And I can't stand bullies.

We have only this guy's description of the action as a "grab". I still am not believing that it was that bad. Most people do not go around abusing other people's children in public. Like Dr. Rosemond says, "If you don't start discipline from the first day you bring them home, you are already behind."

You can't chain your toddler to yourself
Sorry, I can't let this one pass. I had a harness, the kind they sell to keep a kid from falling out of their Highchair, and a dogs leash that kept my little mini-me attached to me at all times when we went to a busy, crowded, potentially kid-losing place like the mall or amusement park. If she slipped her hand out of mine she was brought up short by the leash till I could get her under control again. People gave me lots of grief for "walking my kid like a dog", but when the one Mom approached me, with her 6 little ones all under the age of 7, and asked me where I had gotten my contraption, I knew it was a good thing. That, and the fact that I *never* had a problem finding/keeping control of my mini-me.

Momof4: You can't chain your toddler to yourself,

Yes, you can. Many parents put their toddlers in a harness and line.

Momof4: Karen, my 18 month old can unbuckle the cart straps and be up ready to take a header in the time it takes me to swipe a credit card.

Let's see. I could swipe my credit card in less than a second. Swipe, and it's done.

You're telling me your kid can unbuckle the cart straps and be standing up in the child seat of a shopping cart in that time? I call bullshit.

Momof4: Yes, call ME hysterical if you will, but I am not going to be calm about someone grabbing my kid. Mostly, because I would be right there, and there'd be no need to save someone wanting to bully someone smaller. And I can't stand bullies.

Tell someone not to touch your property is not bullying them. And that goes for an employee fulfilling his obligation to protect store property.

It's a little bit mind-blowing that you would say such a thing. So, if your kids to someone's home and the host spots your kid about to knock over something fragile and undoubtedly expensive and stops your child from doing so, you're going to scream bloody murder about this person bullying your child?

Momof4 said "Would you be okay with some stranger grabbing you if you were doing something they didn't like? I doubt it. Why should kids' bodies be less inviolate? "

If an adult acts in an anti-social manner, they can expect to be grabbed or worse. Your body isn't inviolate to others when you don't respect the rights of others. Nobody's talking about grabbing a child who's behaving. If you keep you child under control, nobody should be grabbing your kid.

Lenona - that was funny as hell.

While my ex and I didn't leash our children, I too have seen it quite a few times. It especially makes sense if you have several.

"It's never okay to grab another's kid"

Why not? Is the kid gonna die of contamination or something?

If a small child is seriously misbehaving - I see nothing wrong with grabbing the kid's hand and marching it over to mommy/daddy, and telling them why you are returning their sprog to them.

It needn't be ill will. Maybe it's an accident - kids are fast and can sneak off. In that case, I trust the parent would realize what happened, and be grateful that someone else took some responsibility. If it's an underparented child, well, maybe the kid will be so shocked at being brought under control as to think twice the next time.

I can't say I've done this (touched a strangers child, in this sense we are discussing) more than once in my life. But the situations do arise. The one time I did this was in a health food store, where the kid was stuffing its face from the open bins. "Health food store" is the first clue - this was a new age mother who saw nothing wrong with the behavior I described, and did not buy my flat-out statement that this was stealing. I chased the kid off from the bins twice more while I was shopping.

I just have to say that those harness and leash things for toddlers are disgusting.

I have three children. They're all about 15 months apart in age from one another. When they were small, it simply wasn't so damn hectic that I felt a need to leash them up. Jesus, have some dignity and give some to your kids as well.

That some people think it's okay to leash their kid like a dog is abhorant to me. Kids should behave, yes, but they are people, with rights, not little pets. You don't get to leash them, and random people don't get to grab them. If you want a dog, get one. And if you think it's okay to grab adults when they're doing something you don't like, and you're not a cop, you're probably going to end up in jail at some point for assault.

SHeep, how does one discipline a newborn? I'm truly curious just what you think it's okay to do to a baby.

Not to mention, employees don't get to use force to protect store property. If you work retail, and try to restrain a thief, or chase one down and tackle them, you're going to get fired, not thanked, 95% of the time. Because if you're not a cop, you can't grab people for doing something you don't like. Unless, of course, you're defending your life or someone elses, but we're not talking self defense here.

I feel sorry for parents who have kids and say that they would never leash a child, even for their own protection and yet at the same time think if you don't seatbelt your kid into a car or an airplane that it is a form of child abuse. What is the difference? In both causes you are restraining the kid for their own and other people's protection. I never had to leash one of my kids because they responded to verbal commands. I did have a sleepwalker and put a latch on the outside of the door where he slept because I was scared stiff that he would leave the house at night when I was asleep.
I had some poor friends who had a kid who was so hyper that if he was not restrained would be in the middle of the table during dinner. They had two choices, either restrain him or never take him out of a secured house until he outgrew it. If you have a kid that you can't control you had darn well better restrain him/her in case he runs through a store and knocks over an 80 year old lady and breaks her hip, in which case, if it happens to be my mother, I will be suing YOUR ass.

The woman apparently "grabbed his hand and started fussing at him". After he touched the computer screen. Some screens are delicate (flat screens can be) and most people don't particularly want a 2 year old's hand (which is frequently not clean) messing up their screen. Grabbing a hand isn't quite the same as the way you make it sound, Momof4.

Not trying to insult kids, but 2 year olds aren't usually that great at not breaking/getting dirty valuable equipment.

What would you do in this case, Momof4? You get the choice of stopping the child or maybe having to explain to management why you allowed valuable equipment to possibly get damaged.

The "fussing at him", well, that could be all sorts of things. Since the man complained, I'd expect he'd be likely to exaggerate, and "fussing at" doesn't sound like a big deal.

Do you think maybe the kid was scared becauase his father was angry?

@momof4
you totally can chain your kids to yourself.

http://www.babble.com/CS/blogs/strollerderby/archive/2008/06/27/from-leashes-to-crib-tents-acceptable-methods-to-tie-down-your-toddler.aspx

And I can't think of a better way to run errands hands free...or you could just control your darn kids.

MO4 said-
SHeep, how does one discipline a newborn? I'm truly curious just what you think it's okay to do to a baby.-

Well, being a respected parenting expert, Dr. Rosemond suggests regular beatings for the 12 month and under crowd. Duh. What he means is that babies need a schedule and it is your responsiblity to provide one. As the baby develops into toddlerhood they should be directed to follow your instructions and do as you ask. This includes staying by your side at the store. By the time they hit three they should and can be helping you pick up toys, clothes, and books. What he says is that most people keep waiting for some magic moment when dicipline should begin, when in reality, parents need to establish their authority early. Failure to do so early only makes gaining control harder later.

Most people don't even realize they have a problem until its too late. For example, I have another friend whose 8 year old dd was recently very sick. The child refused to take her medicine bc she didn't like the way it tasted. This led to long drawn out battles every 8 hours when another dose was required. It was already a stressful situation and my friend's lack of parental authority made it just that much worse.

That some people think it's okay to leash their kid like a dog is abhorant to me. Kids should behave, yes, but they are people, with rights, not little pets. You don't get to leash them, and random people don't get to grab them. If you want a dog, get one. And if you think it's okay to grab adults when they're doing something you don't like, and you're not a cop, you're probably going to end up in jail at some point for assault.

Oh, this made me laugh. You haven't lived til a sweaty, slippery 2 yr old slides out of your hand and takes off full speed, only to get dumped on their butt 'cause they hit the end of the leash. Garanteed one time only application, along with my Umpire "Safe!" Stance.
Geebus jumping on a pogo stick, my dogs are the ones that don't need leashes, they all know how to heel, and training them was easy, fast and milk-bone cheep.

Oh boy, here we go with the argument about leashes and "dignity".

Look, just because YOU wouldn't want to wear a harness doesn't mean that a child's dignity is compromised by his/her wearing one. I wouldn't wear jeggings, myself, but I'm not going to say anything about the dignity of those that do.

Yes, kids SHOULD stay calmly and quietly by their parents when out and about. But because toddlers and preschoolers are pretty inconsistent, easily-distracted and unpredictable creatures, there has to be some safety measure for when what they SHOULD do isn't what they actually do. I usually gave my kids a choice of safety measure from the time they were 18 months or so...stroller/cart, leash, or hand (mine, Daddy's, or siblings' where applicable). A lot of times they CHOSE the leash, which was a monkey backpack. They had the dignity of walking freely in a safe range (I'm 5'2"; my arms aren't that long) of having both hands free, etc. They also never suffered the indignity of being separated from me and being frightened to death, or getting so far away from me that they got into mischief and were frightened by someone else reprimanding them.

As far as a child's or adult's body being "inviolate", that actually stops to a certain degree when you're touching someone else's expensive, fragile property! If an adult were touching my computer in a way likely to damage it, I might grab his/her hand, too! Of course, I would say something first, and an adult (who wasn't disabled in some way or not an English speaker) would probably freaking stop! A two-year-old might not...and it's not mentioned whether the employee said "Hey kid, stop touching that!" before grabbing the little boy's hand.

I have one of those "wild" two year olds. In the store, he is either in his stroller, in the shopping cart (and yes, Kohl's has them) or holding my hand.

Why? Because two year olds cannot be trusted. Period.

I currently work at a packing and shipping store, and if a child comes behind the counter and grabs a box knife, I can, will, and have grabbed the little arm firmly and whisked said box knife out of the little hand. I then place my hands on the child and forcibly usher them back to Mommy.

At past jobs I have been known to pick up a child who was wandering into employee only areas or out the door and turn them around so they walk back towards Mommy. (And it's always Mommy, not Daddy for some reason.)

I have also followed children who rode their bike or ran past my backing up car in a parking lot back to their parents (and once the child's house) to inform them that perhaps their little one needs more training regarding car safety.

I've mostly been thanked for my efforts--the rest of the time I've recieved the stare n' grunt. At no time have I made a child cry.

MO4: So basically I have to smile and nod no matter how badly your child is behaving? Because you are a mom of 4 and have the moral superiority to do what ever you damn well please.

The basic thing is if there is one child age 2 you can easily control them, 2 gets harder. With the third you are now short one arm to exert physical control. I love the leash as parents who care enough to use one typically have kids who don't need it.

I feel bad for retailers and the employees. You can't stop a kid from doing something really stupid. You are however responsible for their injuries if they do.

momof4 - I believe in most states retail security employees are deputized with the right to use force to protect store property - at least to reasonably restrain shoplifters until the police arrive.

These comments annoy me....

"The only reason the kid cried is because he probably was told not to do something for the first time in is life."

I don't know anyone who has a kid over the age of 2-3 who hasn't told them no at least a thousand times! I don't what happened here but it's probably not that big of a deal. The kid was probably almost right next to dad (CS area in walmart/target, etc is right where the job app computers are) and touched the screen. Whoopie Doo! Who cares?! If some lady grabbed him roughly and yelled at him then I do agree it was totally uncalled for. If she said "No, no, that's not for you and brushed his hand away (gently) then again WHO CARES!
Again, why is this blog worthy? Is Amy TRYING to bash parents any way possible? Even something as little as this has to brought up on why people are such dismal parents?
Of course, the only good parents are of children who would never wonder 3 feet away, get excited in a store, and wouldn't dare cry in public even if they are only 10 months old!!

If anyone cares, one popular abbreviation for real parents is PNB - "Parent, not Breeder."

As you might guess, the opposite is BNP.