Telling The Ugly Truth
There's this notion that if a man loves a woman, he "should" lust after her as well. Unfortunately, male sexuality just doesn't work that way. In fact, it's enormously uncooperative with that point of view.
Even more unfortunately, feminism sold women a bill of goods -- that "should" lust after you business above. According to many feminists, and those who've had their thinking poisoned by them, it's actually seen as offensive to try to make yourself look good "just to get (or keep) a man." Well, I don't know about you, but I want love and a partner, and I happen to be into heterosexual male partners, so I've always tried to make myself look attractive to them.
Oh, and I should point out that even though Andrea Dworkin is dead, and feminism is no longer quite as harsh as it was when I took women's studies back in 1983 as a freshman at the University of Michigan, it has seeped into mainstream culture in a most ugly and damaging way. Women who have never even heard of Dworkin or MacKinnon have lapped up their notions about what they should and shouldn't have to do in a relationship.
I'm working on a column now, a response to a guy whose wife needs to understand that she needs to take care of her looks -- to look good -- to be attractive to him. She does these icky things like leaving the bathroom door open when she's taking a poop, picks her zits to the point that they're open sores, and cuts a fart and then comes to bed -- and expects the guy to be all sexed up for her.
Yeah, I know -- ick.
The problem is, when he explains that certain things turn him off, she gets all offended.
The question is, have any of you guys had any luck communicating to a woman under similar circumstances that she needs to take care of herself and not show all in order to be attractive to you?
Wouldn't do any good if feminists suddenly realized that attraction is hard-wired. They'd probably demand that all men be reprogrammed -- behavior modification, aversion therapy, hypnosis, whatever it takes -- to make men attracted to ("ME!") a woman's "inner beauty."
Isn't that essentially what the neo-feminist movement boils down to? That men are broken and must be redone in the feminist model? Feminists are just perfect the way they are. It's the men who need to be reprogrammed to be attracted to them.
Sorry, can't answer the question, Amy. No experience in that.
Patrick at December 16, 2010 2:20 AM
My personal experience is that there is no way for the man to do this without significant risk. Even (or perhaps especially) in long-term, committed relationships. Our Rabbi routinely advises men to turn out the lights in the bedroom, and use their other senses - not bad advice in general!
My other observation is that lotsa guys do not take care of themselves after marriage. I cannot imagine that beer bellies enhance romantic encounters for the wife (at least in traditional positions). Your comment about blithely passing wind is appropriate here.
Pot, meet kettle.
More importantly (and by your theories, more important to women) people stop courting each other. One unmarried houseguest was amazed that I still thanked my wife when she left me a basket of clean laundry. I asked him - at what point in my marriage do you think my underwear and socks stopped stinking, and it became a pleasure to launder it?
Ben David at December 16, 2010 2:34 AM
Those "icky" things are are icky regardless of gender. As a bachelor slob, i'd be horrified to subject a girlfriend to that kind of behavior myself.
lsomber at December 16, 2010 3:16 AM
I've tried to explain it to some women, almost none of them want to listen, or believe it if they do.
Robert at December 16, 2010 4:17 AM
I actually brought up to my girlfriend the other day the whole idea about "too much intimacy" - as in, just because we're emotionally intimate and trusting and sharing, does not mean we need to be sharing every little detail of our physical life as well. There are things that are better left unseen/heard/smelled, etc. And yes, it certainly goes both ways, and I make an effort on my end.
But she was pretty flabbergasted that I would make such a suggestion. It did not go well.
JakeTaylor at December 16, 2010 4:37 AM
That's just gross, period. I'd have a problem if a boyfriend acted like that, or my roommate, or even a casual acquaintance. I just can't imagine getting that comfortable in front of ANYONE, EVER, whether we were married and sleeping together or it was just a random stranger in an adjacent bathroom stall.
I think some women can err too much in the other direction too-not letting their boyfriend see them without makeup or in gym clothes or with wet hair, to the point where it becomes an inconvenience and a barrier. I used to be like this a little-I hated the idea of taking a shower with a guy because my makeup would come off and my hair would get wet, but I eventually learned to let it go and realized that guys don't really care.
Shannon at December 16, 2010 4:53 AM
If people are offended by basic body functions then they need to grow up and move beyond junior high school.
In a long term relationship (been married for 25 years) its basic courtesy, civility and kindness that gets thrown under the bus. The old saying, "familiarity breeds contempt" is alive and well.
As for sexual attraction, the biggest problem IMHO is the 60 lb weight gain experienced by both male and female as the years go by. If you keep yourself fit and are kind to your significant other, you'll still turn them on no matter how long you've been together.
AllenS at December 16, 2010 5:36 AM
My husband doesn't leave the door open when he poops, but the whole house sure knows it. And the constant burping, and the farting. So no, I don't hop into bed all hot n ready very often. You'd think he's draw a correlation there, especially since I've told him the problem in plain english numerous times. Also, there is the beer belly, but I can get past that, it's the rest that's gross.
I"m not offended by body functions, but it's immature to subject others to them sans emergency. And disrespectful.
He's great in other ways, though, so life is a trade-off. I never go a day without hearing I'm beautiful and have a hot ass, he's a great father, provides well....so sometimes I think you need to look at everything in the marriage, and decide if the other things outweigh the gross. It'd be a rare spouse that changed after getting that comfortable.
momof4 at December 16, 2010 5:57 AM
Women invariably look better with something on as opposed to gratuitously naked. And that means with make up. In bed. That'll help kick start the lust generator...
Mason88 at December 16, 2010 6:32 AM
Mostly off-topic...
I used to do the face-picking thing. Any minor scratch or scrape, and I used to pick endlessly at it. It was a terrible nervous habit. Anytime I was upset about anything, my hands went right to my face and found some little imperfection to pick away at. It was awful, and embarrassing. Nowadays, when I find myself doing it, I put a quick dab of make-up on my face, and that keeps me from wanting to touch my face.
Sorry about the thread-jack, just thought I'd mention it, because I always feel bad for face-pickers.
cornerdemon at December 16, 2010 6:42 AM
Married over a decade. Number of times I've gone to the bathroom in his presense: ZERO. There are days when I don't work and he's basically the only other adult I see. I still put on a bit of makeup. It's my way of letting him know he's still worth the effort. It's the same reason I cook dinner for all of us and we sit down in the dining room most nights. When you love someone, you put more into your daily actions involving them than you do with others.
UW Girl at December 16, 2010 6:54 AM
"The question is, have any of you guys had any luck communicating to a woman under similar circumstances that she needs to take care of herself and not show all in order to be attractive to you?"
In a Word....."No".
Thomas at December 16, 2010 7:14 AM
My fiance has a bathroom where the toilet is completely enclosed in its own room - a water closet, I guess it's called. I was never so grateful as when we were first dating. Not only that, but he installed a fan that comes on when you switch the light on. Neither of us ever has to hear of smell the other's bodily functions.
This is so civilized, and I don't know why more houses don't have this. We've been looking at houses, and usually the toilet is right off the master bedroom, separated only by a flimsy door, so every bathroom noise can be heard by the spouse. Why did Americans ever get the idea that this would be good for relationships?
lovelysoul at December 16, 2010 7:16 AM
The women who "get it" get it early. The women who don't, almost never ever do.
Robert at December 16, 2010 7:21 AM
I wonder if being too comfortable is a test some women throw at men: If you REALLY love me, you won't mind when I shit in front of you. What? Are you saying you don't really love me?
Me biting my nails grosses my husband out out, so I've stopped. Sometimes I do it when I'm stressed or bored, but I'm working on it because he hates it.
When he asked me to stop, he phrased it as a health issue: He was worried I was going to get an infection. He brought it up several times, not nagging, just repeating that he was worried about infections and me getting sick. It was obvious he was just repulsed by it (although fear of illness may have been a secondary concern, since I did bite them really badly), but it was sweet that he was trying to get me to stop without hurting my feelings by saying my hands were gross. I've mostly broken the habit and now keep my fingernails are a reasonable length, and he's happy.
MonicaP at December 16, 2010 7:26 AM
Allen S: If people are offended by basic body functions then they need to grow up and move beyond junior high school.
Oh, get real. If you tell me that you're having explosive diarrhea or projectile vomiting, I will express my sympathy. It doesn't mean I want to see you do it, or even hear about it graphic detail.
There's nothing junior high about not wanting to be subjected the nuances of various bodily functions. What's junior high is being intrigued or giggly about it.
I assume that most adults perform the various bodily functions in their varying degrees of unsavoryness. I don't need to see it or hear about it to be convinced of that.
Patrick at December 16, 2010 7:28 AM
I wouldn't do it.
The obvious reasons have been mentioned above.
Second, despite 35 years of marriage, there are language and cultural mines remaining. I know what I'm saying and I am not a devious or passive/aggressive guy. I don't know what she's translating those words into in her mind, until I've said them. I have seen some dreadfully hurt looks over completely innocent remarks in the past. Explaining that I meant only what I said and no criticism was intended or implied to an upset spouse is not fun. Nor is it something that can be allowed to fester. It took me far too long to figure that out.
Lastly, I have never had the need. Nobody believes Mrs D when she tells them her age. She won't leave the house, unless it is to go to the gym, without being dressed up and made up.
MarkD at December 16, 2010 7:38 AM
I wouldn't want to see a parnter poop and I have no desire to poop in front of a parnter. It also depends on the person though. It doesn't bother some people. I know a couple who is very close who does all that in front of each other and they are still very loving. I have other friends who go out of their way to be private. What the important thing is is to respect what your partner wants. If your partner, man or woman, tells you that certain things are a turn-off, why continue to do it? In the name of feminism or anything else, its just a lack of respect and that's where the break down is.
Kristen at December 16, 2010 7:45 AM
My husband and I are casual about the bathroom. Know why? Because that's when he always has something he has to TELL me about, that's why.
We've been together for twenty-two years now, and the casual attitude probably started around the first time we showered together and afterward one of us had to pee while the other one was still drying off.
I guess we're just animals. BFD.
And oh yes--if and when you decide you have found "the one" and are in it for the long term, keep in mind that long term may well include one partner having to wipe the other one's ass. Life ain't pretty.
However, we do say please and thank you to each other, as in: "Honey, would you please pass me a new roll of toilet paper? Thank you."
Pricklypear at December 16, 2010 8:00 AM
>>My husband doesn't leave the door open when he poops, but the whole house sure knows it.
Momof4,
My younger sister once got really peeved with me when I asked her why she kept a large box of kitchen matches prominently displayed on top of the loo - since there weren't any candles in her bathroom.
(She thought I knew very well why & was "meanly" making her explain!).
The reason, and I'd never come across it before, was that her husband often did smelly craps but that if he briefly lit a match straight afterwards, it somehow hugely neutralized the odor.
So, fwiw!
Jody Tresidder at December 16, 2010 8:04 AM
We've been together for twenty-two years now, and the casual attitude probably started around the first time we showered together and afterward one of us had to pee while the other one was still drying off.
There are times when my husband I have used the bathroom together. He's not going to insist that I pee myself so he can shower in peace. And if I had to wipe his ass, I would. Fortunately, we're not at the ass-wiping stage of our relationship yet, so we can luxuriate in not having to watch each other shit.
But Kristen is right. Some people are bothered by it. Some aren't. Just know where you and your partner stand and work with it.
MonicaP at December 16, 2010 8:05 AM
It's all such rubbish what those feminists say. I mean, maybe some stuff like armpit hair is more cultural but clear skin and nice hips (but not too fat) don't seem to be, according to the studies we've all been tracking via this blog.
But enough with men and what turns them on! How about the idea that when you look better you feel better about yourself, you walk with a little pep in your step...all because you have more confidence. Is that all because we're told by the patriarch that our looks are all that matters and we enjoy succumbing to the demands?
It's one thing to crucify men for what evolution has done (making them visual creatures) but it's an entirely different scam to try and tell the world that you don't give a shit how you look. If they blow dry their hair to make it smoother with few fly-aways and trim their bangs into a stylish fringe - isn't that hypocrisy on their part? Isn't that a betrayal of their dogma?!
It's hard to understand how valuing certain physical characteristics is repression by the patriarchy. Men don't go around asking a woman to have her eggs tested for their health (can you even test that?), so men had to evolve a rudimentary system to evaluate if a woman would be a good partner for procreation/continuation of his genes. A nice person makes for a pleasant life but when you simply want to pass on your DNA you're going for the most obvious signs of health (that's the hip-waist ration; boobs; clear, glowing skin; shiny hair; fit body to pick up the baby and run from woolly mammoths maybe?).
Maybe we'll somehow be able to evolve beyond the point of this biological drive but we haven't yet and until we do men AND women are subject to our Ids and genes.
Gretchen at December 16, 2010 8:38 AM
Yes, we may have to wipe our spouse's butt at some point, but why start early? It's not like you need a training regimine to prepare for that. When the time comes, you'll learn, and until then, you can maintain some dignity and sexiness.
It doesn't bother some people, but I suspect that many who aren't bothered assume that their spouse isn't bothered either, but these may be the people writing to Amy, unsure how to tell their spouse how grossed out they are.
It's such a touchy issue that I would never just assume that it didn't bother my guy, even if he didn't say so.
I agree with Ben-David, that you can't be the pot to the kettle. If you're letting yourself go, farting, belching, and pooping in front of your partner, you're sending the message that it's ok for them to do so.
lovelysoul at December 16, 2010 8:53 AM
Likewise, if your partner is not doing any of those things in front of you, he/she is sending a clear signal that this is how they would prefer you handle your bodily functions. It's respectful to pay attention.
lovelysoul at December 16, 2010 8:59 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/12/16/telling_the_ugl.html#comment-1801570">comment from MonicaPI wonder if being too comfortable is a test some women throw at men: If you REALLY love me, you won't mind when I shit in front of you.
I think that's a big part of it.
Amy Alkon at December 16, 2010 9:03 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/12/16/telling_the_ugl.html#comment-1801571">comment from lovelysoulMy fiance has a bathroom where the toilet is completely enclosed in its own room - a water closet, I guess it's called. ...We've been looking at houses, and usually the toilet is right off the master bedroom, separated only by a flimsy door, so every bathroom noise can be heard by the spouse. Why did Americans ever get the idea that this would be good for relationships?
The apartment we stayed in in Paris had a WC with a tiny sink WAY down from the shower and sink bathroom. It's a great idea to not have it "separated by only a flimsy door" from the bedroom.
Amy Alkon at December 16, 2010 9:05 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/12/16/telling_the_ugl.html#comment-1801575">comment from AllenSIn a long term relationship (been married for 25 years) its basic courtesy, civility and kindness that gets thrown under the bus.
Being courteous is being kind enough to continue being what the other person needs and being respectful enough to close the bathroom door.
Amy Alkon at December 16, 2010 9:08 AM
"Fortunately, we're not at the ass-wiping stage of our relationship yet, so we can luxuriate in not having to watch each other shit."
You do realize I'm talking about the "in sickness and in health" part, right? Cuz we're not about the bukake (or however it's spelled)!
I did have to help him with a hemorrhoid situation once. Ah, romance!
Toiletry aside, though:
I keep picturing two people who have had a lot of work done on themselves wondering where their ugly kids came from.
Pricklypear at December 16, 2010 9:13 AM
Hi Amy,
All this beauty and feminism talk reminded me of an article written by one of my favorite Opinion Writers. This article I'm linking to as well as many of his others are surprisingly worthwhile. The payoff is typically in reading the entire thought: http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sex_news_sports_funny_grok/whyohwhy_arent_you_hot&cr=
brad at December 16, 2010 9:22 AM
You do realize I'm talking about the "in sickness and in health" part, right? Cuz we're not about the bukake (or however it's spelled)!
Oh, yes. I meant that fortunately, we are both healthy and don't need to help each other with bodily functions, so we can maintain the sexy for a while longer. I'm sure we'll get to the point where I have to cut his toenails because he can't stretch far enough to reach his feet, like my mother did for my father, if we live long enough.
MonicaP at December 16, 2010 9:23 AM
Giving birth is one of those gross things (that you're supposed to say is beautiful). I doubt most men really find it sexy, but they stand by you anyway.
But that's one moment or period of time. The sickness and in health part may become really gross, or it may never come to pass. You might die before your spouse, or he may drop dead suddenly. There's no guarantee you'll ever have to change a bedpan, so I don't get the perspective that one should prepare for it by being overly intimate during the part of the relationship when you should still be having passion and romance.
Of course, that may also be a hidden agenda - to kill the passion and romance.
lovelysoul at December 16, 2010 9:25 AM
Brad, somebody needs to send those guys a link to my work (PS Carolyn Hax started her column after I met Don Graham of the Washington Post, who told me he was a fan of my column in the New York Daily News, and wanted to get it in his paper. They decided to get some chick who worked as a copy editor at the paper to write for them instead. I might not have had a degree in psychology, but I read all of psychology myself, decided that Albert Ellis/cognitive behavioral therapy made the most sense, and started going to psych conferences, reading journals, and general educating myself to be more than some chick who writes an advice column. Seemed the responsible thing to do.)
Amy Alkon at December 16, 2010 9:29 AM
LS:
One of my dreams in life is to move into a new house in 4-6 years. Nothing huge, but something with a really intelligent layout, like a smaller space in the master bedroom but a really big closet and generous bathroom...this dream bathroom has two sinks with a mile of space in between and...a water closet!!
As for the Pooping Intimacy Test: My husband dated a woman when he was in college and one day he was taking a crap and she went into the bathroom and said "I'm going to watch you." She actually explained it was a test of intimacy. He was shocked and went for it b/c nothing really bothers him.
She went to Wellesley. I'll let you draw your own assumptions.
Gretchen at December 16, 2010 9:30 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/12/16/telling_the_ugl.html#comment-1801586">comment from GretchenMy husband dated a woman when he was in college and one day he was taking a crap and she went into the bathroom and said "I'm going to watch you."
Eeeuw.
Amy Alkon at December 16, 2010 9:35 AM
> Women who have never even heard of Dworkin or
> MacKinnon have lapped up their notions about
> what they should and shouldn't have to do
> in a relationship
Dworkin wasn't an innovative thinker. The had the same ideas about sex that lots of bitter and naive young women will have. As Paglia once famously noted, her worst difficulty with the world obviously wasn't appetites for sex:
Feminists like Amy's new friend Miss Hall (from yesterday) responded just as you'd expect them to: They skipped right over the insight and assumed this was just a fat joke. Remember a few weeks ago when Amy described a very serious and all-grown-up feminist website that had forbidden "bodysnark" in the comment section? There are people out there who refuse to let the rest of the world grow up. They're prepared to hold the entire planet hostage in sixth grade until the teacher admits that Connor is just a big meany.
Paglia again:
There are a lot of people like that in the world, people who will make a life's work out of projecting their resentments... It's human nature.
The problem with Dworkin wasn't that she was novel. The problem with Dworkin's thinking was that she was mundane.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at December 16, 2010 9:44 AM
There's no guarantee you'll ever have to change a bedpan, so I don't get the perspective that one should prepare for it by being overly intimate during the part of the relationship when you should still be having passion and romance.
Yep. There's a time for everything. Enjoy the time you're in.
MonicaP at December 16, 2010 9:44 AM
Double Eeeuw. I would've kicked her out and failed that test. I really can't go to the bathroom with someone watching, even other women. I once played a whole basketball game having to pee so bad because the locker rooms where we changed had open toilets.
So, I'm a big fan of water closets. Whatever house we get, I'm going to put one in if it doesn't already have one. They're rare here, but I guess they're more popular in Europe.
lovelysoul at December 16, 2010 9:45 AM
A certain amount of showing bodilyness can be sexy to a man (unless he is one of those men who are so hung up on having their woman polished and sterile that they droop at the sight of a single body hair, of course). Napoleon wasn't turned off by natural odours; although two weeks without a wash may be rather long if it's Texas, has a soap been invented that drives a man wild? My husband wishes I wouldn't shave my legs, so I only do that in the summer.
I think a lot of men might get less hung up on farts if their women walked around the house in fishnet stockings and a lacy negligee once in a while. Relationships are about open negotiation!
Alice Bachini-Smith at December 16, 2010 9:46 AM
Christ, people have been aching for a chance to talk about shit 'n piss.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at December 16, 2010 9:50 AM
"The question is, have any of you guys had any luck communicating to a woman under similar circumstances that she needs to take care of herself and not show all in order to be attractive to you?" -AA
I have only had to even consider this in one or two situations. If you are lucky (I wasn't) your partner will understand your explanation and reasoning for your requests and help meet you half way, i.e., you have to put in as much effort as your partner. If not ...
To me, Communication and Effort are key to a relationship ... if the person you love farts and you think, wtf am I with them for? maybe try not saying "I do" so fast, as ... well, sorry folks but humans are nothing more that supposedly highly intelligent MAMMALS ... animals ... and I haven't seen my dog excuse herself or apologize for her functions .. or the neighborhood cats, the local squirrel population or the monkeys at the zoo. Humans made the way we live messed up by all the "self-awareness" to try harder to separate themselves from the animals and denying their true selves ... ok so it seems off topic, but think of this issue in anthropological terms ... do you think our ancestors really cared about his woman shitting in the corner? nope, you're right, he didn't.
remember, "DoDo Doth Occur." and sorry if I offended anyone or drifted too far off topic.
-- Also, my Wife and I are comfortable with each other, but if one of us is self conscious and needs "alone" for something, we respect each other and try to give each other that space ... If I'm showering, I don't care if you use the loo, I'm not occupying it ... just please for the love of B'jeebus, DON'T FLUSH! ;)
Dys at December 16, 2010 9:50 AM
Hi Amy,
Been awhile.
First wife did that. Let herself go and when I attempted to mention some things that really got to me within a year we were done.
2nd wife is european...Alway the lady. She wont even go to Wal-Mart unless she looks decent. Takes very good care of herself.
It is tough to bring up those things to women. My wife and I have discussed it at length and we agree on most of the ettiqutte.
I remember my dad jokingly saying when I was a kid "when she will go to the bathroom in front of you the honeymoon is over"
Thought it was funny then....now I know what he meant.
The Other Mike D at December 16, 2010 9:53 AM
It's tricky to say something about bad habits without putting someone on the defensive.
My mother spent 25 years trying to get me to stop biting my nails by yelling at me to get my fingers out of my mouth and telling me my hands looked like "a monkey's ass." I stopped when my husband asked me to because I was touched that he cared about my feelings enough to not be a dick about it.
MonicaP at December 16, 2010 10:01 AM
Yeesh. Like I said, we're casual. But we don't watch each other. That would be somewhat other than what I meant.
I have gone to Parade of Home shows that included bathrooms with two toilets in them. Now THAT'S casual. Or something.
By the way, how come so many people have no problem taking their phones into the toilet with them? I don't have a cell phone, so I don't quite get it.
Pricklypear at December 16, 2010 10:06 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/12/16/telling_the_ugl.html#comment-1801622">comment from Alice Bachini-SmithI think a lot of men might get less hung up on farts if their women walked around the house in fishnet stockings and a lacy negligee once in a while. Relationships are about open negotiation!
I like to parade around in a bra and underwear when Gregg has come over a little early to fix my computer or something, but doing that doesn't give you some pass to start passing gas! The more you look/act like you did when you were first dating (in terms of being respectful and looking good), the better you will do with the person. If you wouldn't fart in front of him on the first date, don't do it on year five together.
Amy Alkon at December 16, 2010 10:18 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/12/16/telling_the_ugl.html#comment-1801623">comment from Crid [CridComment at gmail]Great points, Crid.
Amy Alkon at December 16, 2010 10:19 AM
My first lady had a colostomy for three years. I had to change the bag on many occasions. As well as a period she was practically comatose and/or immobile I had to change her diaper. Granted I wore latex gloves and wouldn't want to do it as a profession or for a stranger. I look at it as part of the in sickness and health clause even though we weren't married. After a while you get used to it. I still loved her till she passed.
My latest ex was willing to leave the door open when she dropped a load if we were in conversation. But at the same time, you didn't really know what was up.
I, on the other hand, will try to be private about dropping a load. But I know how loud I can be. And trust me -- these 3.2 liter toilets are not all they are cracked up to be, especially when it comes to size. Courtesy flush anyone?
Jim P. at December 16, 2010 10:24 AM
Other Mike D, you actually responded to Amy's question! Is that allowed?
Just kidding--I try it myself once in a while.
Pricklypear at December 16, 2010 10:32 AM
I don't think there's anyone here who doesn't see a difference between helping a partner with something they can't do for themselves and forcing your nasty habits on other people.
Changing a colostomy bag for a partner is an act of love. It's not anything close to being forced to listen to your spouse drop a load because they can't be bothered to close the door, or worse, because it's some weird test of your love.
MonicaP at December 16, 2010 10:35 AM
OK, well the survey says, "No."
but what are we talking about here? A little compassion for your partner? Don't walk in on them when they are in the bathroom, but don't leave the door open when you are. Bodily functions happen, but we all know we don't want anyone else to see that. It's just how do you respond...
when she's drunk and praying to the porcelain alter, do you hold her hair back, and make sure she doesn't pass out? Carry her to bed and wipe her face? Your compassion and love is showing. When she apologizes for putting you through that she is acknowledging that.
But this isn't a habit. This isn't a taking for granted, and I think that is the basis of our question.
You gain 100# because you don't care, unless you have a medical problem. 25# might be happy weight, but importantly, you can work together to get that under control.
The hard part in all of this is that introspection is sometimes not a strong suit. My ex- gained 100# but constantly harped about my allergy med caused elevated blood pressure. When I asked her about her BP, she acted like I was ATTACKING while she felt no compunction at all about nagging me.
This is the same thing with the passive/aggressive bathroom stuff. There are certain things that make people uncomfortable, and you have to pick up on it. I liked showering with my partner, and I liked brushing her hair. I have had several partners that liked that a lot and several that wouldn't allow it. :Shrug:... what was important to me was that they knew I wanted to... But why could anyone possibly want to watch me take a leak, I have no clue. What's the value in that?
SwissArmyD at December 16, 2010 10:41 AM
"I, on the other hand, will try to be private about dropping a load. But I know how loud I can be. And trust me -- these 3.2 liter toilets are not all they are cracked up to be, especially when it comes to size. Courtesy flush anyone?"
One word: Toto. Best flushing toilet ever...put one in your WC, and all problems will be solved.:)
As Swiss says, there's a difference between doing what you have to do to care for a sick spouse and being subjected to unattractive bodily functions because you're taken for granted.
Nobody finds farting or shitting sexy (well, unless they have a fetish), so doing that regularly in front of your partner is like saying, "I don't care if you find me desirable anymore."
If they were honest, some women might actually say that. It's evident from letting themselves go, and this sort of behavior, that sexyness has fallen way down on the list of priorities.
lovelysoul at December 16, 2010 11:11 AM
A favorite piece about Dworkin.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at December 16, 2010 11:14 AM
I wonder if being too comfortable is a test some women throw at men: If you REALLY love me, you won't mind when I shit in front of you.
Heh. A shit test. Literally.
Shit Test -- when a woman gives a guy a hard time, usually for the purpose of seeing how he will react. Because women (especially attractive women) are hit on all the time, they have developed behaviors that quickly disqualify potential suitors that are not of a high enough value for her.
lsomber at December 16, 2010 11:15 AM
I'll answer the question now...however indirectly.
If you are in a relationship with someone you should be able to address things that are important - even if they're uncomfortable - without biting one another's head off. I also agree with Swiss that introspection isn't a strong suit for many people (male AND female). It's really shocking how few people understand the ways they affect other people, and I'm not just talking about annoying strangers on their cell phone on the commuter rail train at 6:30 PM. Likewise, people are overly sensitive about how things affect THEM. Not everything that happens is to piss you off. Gotta roll with it sometimes.
I could never be in a relationship with someone who was totally clueless and didn't take the time to be respectful of me. If I do something that bothers my husband he tells me, nicely and calmly, and I apologize and try to not do it anymore. Compromise.
People need to grow the fuck up or shut up - you married the lazy tool, I don't feel bad for you.
Gretchen at December 16, 2010 11:19 AM
If you wouldn't fart in front of him on the first date, don't do it on year five together.
Well, unless he genuinely finds it charming anyway.
I was being a bit facetious about the negotiating- asking a cavewoman to wear a sexy bra would probably get the guy bashed with a club, but it might make some sort of a point...
It actually makes me sad that some women have carried bodily self-hate right into feminiam, by rejecting the idea of looking good in any kind of female-identifiable way at all. Women should think seriously about whether Andrew Dworkin was the best role model for how to take care of oneself.
Alice Bachini-Smith at December 16, 2010 11:25 AM
The cell phone in the bathroom is something that amazes me. I have a female client that has done that to me more than once.
SSSSppppplllloooooossshhhh!
Eric at December 16, 2010 11:29 AM
Is this really how people live?
I maintain the same body type and size as when I was a football player, trim my nails regularly, wash daily, never ever subject S/O to body expulsions, keep hair short, etc., etc.
All of that, to my mind, is owed (yes, owed) to S/O. In exchange for that person pledging monogamy, you give the other person the best quality sex life you can, including spending some serious effort KEEPING YOURSELF ATTRACTIVE.
Beer bellies resulting from indifference, too-long nails, failure to wash or brush teeth. These should not, in any relationship, new or old, be acceptable.
Spartee at December 16, 2010 11:30 AM
I agree that the 'should' attitude can be toxic. This is something that I'd run into in my last relationship. Once she got comfortable with me, she started putting on weight, and generally letting herself go. I'd tried to address it gently, but it was apparent that she had no interest in changing. Her attitude seemed to be that I somehow had a flawed idea of what relationships are, and so rather than her making an effort, I should make the effort to find her attractive. The whole issue became a debate about whether I had any right to expect her to be sexually attractive to me. So I broke up with her.
joel at December 16, 2010 11:34 AM
"The whole issue became a debate about whether I had any right to expect her to be sexually attractive to me. So I broke up with her. "
I hope that whole process took, start to finish, 20 minutes.
Spartee at December 16, 2010 11:37 AM
Maybe it's the whole being a nurse thing, but body functions don't gross me out in situations where folks have zero control over them. It doesn't disgust me at all to have to help a patient who has Alzheimer's change a gown, but if some 21 year old drunk jackhole pees himself, it suddenly is GROSS.
Trust me, I've seen it a million times. When your spouse or loved one gets to the point that you're dealing with bed pans, you don't give a damn because so many other things are so much more terrifying.
And...
Why the hell don't more houses have little separate rooms for the toilet?
UW Girl at December 16, 2010 11:43 AM
She does these icky things like leaving the bathroom door open when she's taking a poop, picks her zits to the point that they're open sores, and cuts a fart and then comes to bed -- and expects the guy to be all sexed up for her.
Ick indeed. Was she like this when he dated her? I wonder how many women keep up their appearance just to snag a guy, and then completely let themselves go...
Crusader at December 16, 2010 11:47 AM
Goddamn! That's the second day in a row that LS has said something less-than-hideous...
> There's no guarantee you'll ever have
> to change a bedpan, so I don't get the
> perspective that one should prepare for
> it by being overly intimate during the
> part of the relationship when you should
> still be having passion and romance.
...even though I don't agree entirely.
People need to be real about how each others' bodies work. Nobody should spend their life moping about how it's going to end, or presuming that it will so unpleasant as to make the rest of the ride not-worthwhile.
But it might. You probably WILL have to change a bedpan, and will probably need one changed for yourself.
Many years before got sick, Hitchen's condensed it into one of my favorite three-word sets: "This ends badly." (Contenders include ILY and GFY.) And now that he's so ill, I'm particularly impressed with him for not expressing gratuitous regret for his smoking and drinking. He understands that it ends badly anyway, and we weren't put here to be safe and grim.
So anyway, like, right: You shouldn't have to rub your nose in the smelly parts of life, or your partners' smelly life, right now. No one's going to fault you for being a cheerful and sunny person.
But when the day comes —and it could come tomorrow— that you're dealing with the ugly stuff, keep your weeping to courteous minimum, OK? Your parents should have known this could happen when they started flirting.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at December 16, 2010 11:56 AM
I'm afraid to even comment. Two days in a row you've semi-agreed with me, Crid. I know it won't last, but it's a nice little run.
lovelysoul at December 16, 2010 12:06 PM
You must be in the holiday spirit. Been getting any ghost visits? :)
lovelysoul at December 16, 2010 12:07 PM
I like to parade around in a bra and underwear when Gregg has come over a little early to fix my computer or something,
TMI there doctor?
Crusader at December 16, 2010 12:13 PM
I think anyone, no matter the gender, should pay attention if someone says a personal habit is offensive or a turn-off.
Who DOES like under- the- blanket farts, zit-mining, or toe-picking?
If you care for someone, and they think a certain habit is disgusting, then listen! If anyone wants to "stay attractive" for others, then don't try to offend them. That has nothing to do with feminism or how objectively hot you are.
siobhan at December 16, 2010 12:14 PM
More American men are dating/marrying Asian women because they actually care about their appearance. American women have this horrible tendency to gain 100# after snagging a guy.
Crusader at December 16, 2010 12:15 PM
If you care for someone, and they think a certain habit is disgusting, then listen! If anyone wants to "stay attractive" for others, then don't try to offend them. That has nothing to do with feminism or how objectively hot you are.
The thing is it has to be understood what the deal is in relationship. If it's understood from the beginning that farting, burping and gaining weight is ok, then there will be no problem. The problem tends to be a lack of truth in advertising if you get my drift.
Crusader at December 16, 2010 12:17 PM
I've tried to explain it to some women, almost none of them want to listen, or believe it if they do.
Do they consider themselves to be really irresistible?
If a man or woman is always pursued, maybe they think everything about them is adorable. I'd be so embarrassed, I'd want to change annoying habits, and I'd expect the same from him.
siobhan at December 16, 2010 12:21 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/12/16/telling_the_ugl.html#comment-1801699">comment from CrusaderI like to parade around in a bra and underwear when Gregg has come over a little early to fix my computer or something, TMI there doctor?
More women should do that. It's normal behavior for people who want to keep their relationship alive. Just walk past a guy in something sexy when he's supposed to be seriously engaged in something else, and is.
Amy Alkon at December 16, 2010 12:32 PM
It's a 2 way street. My live in BF slurps soup and cereal, a habit which I find completely DISGUSTING. I can't sit in the same room and listen to that garbage. He is also insulted when I ask him to stop. I also hate that he leaves stuff all over the house, just drops clothes on the floor and leaves dirty dishes everywhere. It makes him very unattractive to me. Then he want's a BJ before bed? Pick up after yourself and get some manners...then I will be more relaxed and in the mood!
me at December 16, 2010 12:36 PM
More women should do that.
Just don't do what I did: Open the door thinking it's your husband when it's actually the Fresh Direct guy delivering your groceries. I turned my apartment into the site of a porn flick for 3/4 of a second.
My dog was really unhappy about getting stuck between the door and the doorjamb. That'll teach the little bitch to run out when I open the door.
MonicaP at December 16, 2010 12:38 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/12/16/telling_the_ugl.html#comment-1801706">comment from MonicaPThat's hilarious.
I have texted my assistant sweet messages meant for Gregg, and he once answered the phone, "Hello, my darling," or something like that, and it was his elderly Israeli landlady. Heh heh. "Shalom, my sweet!" I like to imagine her responding.
Amy Alkon at December 16, 2010 12:42 PM
I like to say, the difference between being polite to strangers and being polite to intimates is: With the former, you have to be twice as formal, but with the latter, you have to be twice as tolerant. Or patient, anyway.
And, of course, as others here have pointed out, if you've suddenly turned into a slob, yourself, you can't complain about your partner's doing so.
Miss Manners once said: "If manners between lovers are unimportant, why is it that, when loves dies for non-criminal reasons, it's almost always due to bad manners?"
To repeat something else she wrote:
From "Miss Manners' guide to excruciatingly correct behavior" (first edition, "Family Relations," pages 208-209):
"As befits a highly advanced society, ours has a vast amount of accumulated wisdom on the interesting and crucial subject of Romance. Where to find it, how to encourage it, how to recognize whether it is genuine - all this is discussed exhaustively in our literature. After careful research in the monthly women's magazines and other philosophical journals, Miss Manners has been able to discover only two tenets dealing with how to sustain love, once it has been found, recognized, and acknowledged. It seems there are infinite ways - not to say techniques or tricks - of conducting courtships, but only two principles of marriage:
1. Don 't let yourself go.
2. Don't let yourself be taken for granted.
(Or perhaps it's not to take the other person for granted. Miss Manners sometimes reads these periodicals upside down without noticing that she is doing so.)
What these solemn injunctions actually mean, Miss Manners is not sure. The last time she saw them spelled out, they meant that women were not supposed to wear curlers and men were supposed to bring home flowers, but that was a long time ago, before the invention of the instamatic hot curler and the house plant.
Even then, these rules troubled Miss Manners. They seemed designed to supply marriage, artificially, with the suspense and tension of courtship. Now, courtship is a wonderful thing. There is nothing like it for inspiring attractive, new sensitivities and underwear.
Miss Manners will go so far as to say that the "best behavior" of courtship, both in looks and manners, is the best starting place for the daily habits of a household. What disturbs her is the implied threat that lapses — not into rudeness, but into familiarity and comfort — will kill love. People who behave well only under such threats, and there seem to be many who can live together happily only until they marry and erase that threat, don't know much about love. Any love worth the name ought to be able to indulge the life changes, such as added weight and age, or the relaxation techniques, such as old bathrobes and unshaven weekends, commonly grouped under "letting yourself go."
The entire point of marriage ought to be the luxury of being able to take someone for granted, to know that he or she will always be there, through good times and bad, no matter what. Compared to that, the thrill of wondering whether you will be wanted from one day to the next is rather a crude form of excitement. Miss Manners trusts that none of this will be misconstrued as an endorsement of household ugliness. You know that she believes that manners are even more important at home than in company. If familiarity will breed contempt, there is something wrong. It is the business of the family to be familiar.
(end)
lenona at December 16, 2010 12:56 PM
>>[to Crid] You must be in the holiday spirit. Been getting any ghost visits? :)
lovelysoul - that was wonderful!
Jody Tresidder at December 16, 2010 12:57 PM
"I also hate that he leaves stuff all over the house, just drops clothes on the floor and leaves dirty dishes everywhere. It makes him very unattractive to me."
If Brad Pitt left about those same clothes and dishes, you wouldn't notice, let alone claim such actions make him unattractive.
Spartee at December 16, 2010 12:59 PM
If Brad Pitt left about those same clothes and dishes, you wouldn't notice, let alone claim such actions make him unattractive.
The saying goes that no matter how hot a woman is, somewhere, there is a man tired of fucking her. The flip side is, no matter how hot a man is, somewhere there is a woman tired of fishing his dirty underwear out of the couch cushions. Someone being a slob can certainly make them less attractive.
BTW, I solved that problem by ignoring anything that wasn't in a hamper when I did the laundry. My husband's sudden lack of clean underwear inspired him where simple requests couldn't.
MonicaP at December 16, 2010 1:06 PM
Just recently my husband told me he doesn't want to watch me shit anymore, because it's not attractive. I was a little shocked because I've watched him sniff his poo-filled toilet paper on numerous occasions, and sexually speaking, he loves eating out my ass. But it's not a problem for me and he'll never see me take a shit again.
I used to think having no boundaries was a form of intimacy. But I've seen enough now in my life to know I was simply nosey and disrespectful. That said, husband and I are apparently "gross". We do all the things lots of you say are disgusting, but we don't do them in public. Home however, is a "safe" place for us.
Anon at December 16, 2010 1:06 PM
> Pick up after yourself and get some manners...
And what, "Me", do you admire about this man you've brought into your home?
Nunnamy beezwax and I really don't care, but I have suspicions about the social development of those who'd select as nom de plume the objective of the first person singular.
In the moment you selected that name, it probably felt offhand and diffident... But as a psychological posture, it's a motherfucking land-grab.
Keep your hands off my pronouns, bee-yotch.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at December 16, 2010 1:06 PM
"The problem tends to be a lack of truth in advertising if you get my drift."
I definitely do. There's a lot of false advertising!
siobhan at December 16, 2010 1:06 PM
I was with a friend today and mentioned this topic to her. She's one of my very happily married friends and I asked her what her and her husband do. Her husband has no problem with her peeing in front of him but is grossed out at the thought of her getting in bed if her hands and feet aren't perfectly groomed. I thought she was kidding but she said that its the one thing that is an issue for him so she goes for regular mani pedi's to make him happy. So again its personal preference and respect. She makes a point of doing what he likes and not doing things that turn him off.
Kristen at December 16, 2010 1:13 PM
Power cite, Lenona.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at December 16, 2010 1:34 PM
""I go down the checklist: no short skirt; it was daylight; I didn't drink a lot even though it was alcohol and I rarely drink, but so what? It could have been Wild Turkey or coffee. I didn't drink with a man, I sat alone and read a book, I didn't go somewhere I shouldn't have been, wherever that might be when you are 52, I didn't flirt, I didn't want it to happen. I wasn't hungry for a good, hard fuck that would leave me pummelled with pain inside." from story about Dworkin
I've never read her stuff before, but that kind of thinking sounds like it came from ignorant red-necks who think rape is about sex, not violence, and that only young sexy women get raped. Hello? Was she disturbed and over the edge from her childhood experiences? That explains a lot, but she seems to be pushing the idea that women should hate all men and never enjoy sex- no matter what.
siobhan at December 16, 2010 2:17 PM
If they were honest, some women might actually say that. It's evident from letting themselves go, and this sort of behavior, that sexyness has fallen way down on the list of priorities.
I think that is a big factor that people don't want to acknowledge. Many women seem to naturally drift into a sort of asexual disposition once they're settled. At least that's what I've seen, and what my friends have experienced. But I don't think that it's deliberate. They just don't have the urge any longer. Age also seems to be a factor. Once you start dealing with women in their thirties and older, it becomes evident that many of them just want some companionship. They're not so interested in physical intimacy.
joel at December 16, 2010 2:22 PM
> Once you start dealing with women in their
> thirties and older, it becomes evident
> that many of them just want
> some companionship.
"Many" is an interesting number, as is "older"... For this has not been my experience at all.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at December 16, 2010 2:27 PM
You want awkward/gross? Try listening to your mother pee while talking to her on the phone. I wouldn't have been bothered if she had said, "Son I have to go, can I call you back?".
Sio at December 16, 2010 2:30 PM
Sioban--Dworkin was deeply damaged. And pretty much full of shit.
http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2000/09/20/dworkin/index.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2000/jun/08/society
Belinda Gomez at December 16, 2010 2:34 PM
One thing my husband and I do is treat each other well. We try not to pick on each other, because we are well aware of our own bad habits, and we know how fast it could turn into a "Well,YOU...." kind of argument.
If our sex life has declined some, it's partly due to age, partly due to staying up too late doing other stuff. We have a standing "date". But the romance has not faded at all, a fact that never ceases to marvel either of us.
He knows I'm a cynic--our running joke is that it'll never last. He likes little Asian women, I like the Johnny Depp types, and we both look more like Mr. & Mrs. Santa Claus.
Pricklypear at December 16, 2010 2:46 PM
Correct that--we look like Mr. and Mrs. Santa Claus if they were old hippies.
Pricklypear at December 16, 2010 2:49 PM
lenona - letting go is ok if it's wearing an old bathrobe or not making the bed once in a while. But gaining 50#, not taking care of acne, burping and farting are NOT acceptable EVER.
Crusader at December 16, 2010 2:52 PM
Many women seem to naturally drift into a sort of asexual disposition once they're settled.
One thing some of my friends in long-term relationships talk about is being bored. If you don't mix it up, try new things, sex becomes like playing Super Mario Brothers: mashing the same buttons in the same order so that you can be told over and over again that the Princess is in another castle.
Correct that--we look like Mr. and Mrs. Santa Claus if they were old hippies.
You mean they're not?
MonicaP at December 16, 2010 2:53 PM
One thing some of my friends in long-term relationships talk about is being bored. If you don't mix it up, try new things, sex becomes like playing Super Mario Brothers: mashing the same buttons in the same order so that you can be told over and over again that the Princess is in another castle.
Mashing the same buttons can be very nice if they're not too deteriorated. "Spicing things up", or kinkiness is just covering up the basic problem. IMHO, if a couple can't have basic, straight sex without any kinky nonsense they've got a problem. It's about the fundamentals.
Crusader at December 16, 2010 2:56 PM
Never said anything about kinky. Try it at a different time of day, or rent a hotel room in your own city, or try a different room.
MonicaP at December 16, 2010 2:58 PM
Another key to a fantastic sex life is to be young, fit, healthy and good looking!
Crusader at December 16, 2010 3:05 PM
Another key to a fantastic sex life is to be young, fit, healthy and good looking!
Yeah, those things have never killed anyone.
MonicaP at December 16, 2010 3:07 PM
dunno crusader... most of those people have no clue about anything. I am definitely better now that I was in my 20's. experience, it's a wonderful thing.
"how did you know I liked that?" :evilgrin:
SwissArmyD at December 16, 2010 3:10 PM
Correct that--we look like Mr. and Mrs. Santa Claus if they were old hippies.
You mean they're not?
_____________________________
Well...I didn't want the kiddies in this forum to have their view of them distorted by picturing them kicking back in tie-dyed jeans, Mrs. Claus baking her special brownies, Led Zeppelin on the stereo...
What the hell. Go for it.
Pricklypear at December 16, 2010 3:17 PM
dunno crusader... most of those people have no clue about anything. I am definitely better now that I was in my 20's. experience, it's a wonderful thing.
No doubt about that, many in their 20s are fumbling, bumbling amateurs! But if you have it all figured out when you're at the peak of your physical condition, then the sex is mindblowingly good.
Crusader at December 16, 2010 3:19 PM
Yes, the last couple of days I have found myself not only in agreement with LS but also BOTU who had one of the more intelligent posts I have read on the foibles of scientific studies.
In a nutshell, we live in a very affluent society now. There is no reason to inflict your bodily functions or your snoring on your significant other. Seperate bedrooms, seperate bathrooms with doors that shut should be a must for most couples without small children in the house. This isn't Little House on the Prairie where we are all shoved together in a one room cabin using the same chamber pot and dying from typhoid. :-)
The only thing more damaging to a relationship than intruding bodily functions is the verbal battering that some people give each other. It is all rude behavior people. If you won't do it or say it in an office situation or in front of strangers you should not be doing it or saying it to your significant other.
Isabel1130 at December 16, 2010 3:19 PM
There is no way any man can put that to a woman without a good chance she'll have hurt feelings. He has to say something bc her behavior sounds atrocious. People aren't raised like they used to be and it's unfair to expect her to use a skill set she does not possess. Relationships are work and this guy needs a script. Chances are it wasn't always like this, but the time to speak up was the first time she decided to advertise her ability to give golden and brown showers.
Gspotted at December 16, 2010 3:30 PM
Am I the only plush (as hubby calls it) gal who feels gorgeous and whose hubby (also a bit on the plush side :-)) thinks I'm the most beautiful creature on Earth? (That said, I've just begun following the new incarnation of the Weight Watchers program and lost 2.5 pounds the first week. YAY, I can be cuddly AND healthy! :-))
DorianTB at December 16, 2010 3:33 PM
You're not alone, Dorian, but how gorgeous I feel varies from day to day. Plush. Love it.
Pricklypear at December 16, 2010 3:36 PM
They'd almost have to be.
If that ain't an old hippie....
Conan the Grammarian at December 16, 2010 3:40 PM
Even my dog has the decency to look embarrassed if she toots in front of me. (Or is that surprised? Sometimes I think she doesn't know what happened, and is like WTF?)
Pricklypear, where do you live, in case my sweetie and I ever go on a cycling tour in your neighborhood? Don't you live in Canada? We will bring happy brownies. You and your husband sound like the kind of people we like to hang out with.
Pirate Jo at December 16, 2010 3:45 PM
What I don't get is how hard is it not to fart in front of people? Has this woman never had roommates? Shared a room with a sibling? Gone on a camping trip? Forgoing the makeup or wearing sweatpants all the time is one thing but controlling your bodily functions is pretty much a basic part of living in society past the age of, oh, five.
Shannon at December 16, 2010 3:47 PM
I had a young woman, who worked for me, and was very pretty, but she'd let a fart rip whenever the mood struck. It was so incongrous - this hot young woman farting. She wasn't embarrassed in the least (though I often was). She wasn't a feminist either. I suspect she must've been raised around farters, and just thought it was normal and natural.
She's remained unmarried though. As lovely as she is, none of her relationships ever seem to work out, and I always wonder if it's because the guys get grossed out.
lovelysoul at December 16, 2010 4:41 PM
Crid: Define "power cite"?
__________________
lenona - letting go is ok if it's wearing an old bathrobe or not making the bed once in a while. But gaining 50#, not taking care of acne, burping and farting are NOT acceptable EVER.
Posted by: Crusader at December 16, 2010 2:52 PM
___________________
Who said they were? Certainly not Miss Manners. Nor did I.
What appalls me are those who encourage, say, women going under the knife just because they're 50 and don't look like the movie stars who happen to be that age - because THEY had facial surgery!
lenona at December 16, 2010 5:31 PM
Sometimes a fart's just gotta be let out. No force on earth is going to stop it. And there you are, in the middle of aisle five...
brian at December 16, 2010 6:09 PM
@LS -
I doubt the farts have much to do with it. Jennifer Aniston can't seem to keep a relationship going either.
Know why?
Because she's fucking crazy, that's why.
Men can overlook a fart. Maybe even laugh at it.
But we just can't tolerate crazy - no matter how hot the wrapper.
brian at December 16, 2010 6:11 PM
In the late 1980's, gentlemen's neckwear turned outrageously garish... Even in the most staid and traditional realms, such as law and commerce. Grown men of sophistication and nuance adorned their breastbones with ever-more distracting patterns of flame and contrast. Lesser players, hoping to curry favor with the ambitious attention-seeker as he strutted into the boardroom, would flatter him on the sheer peacock-ery of his fashion choices, thusly: "Power tie, Dave!"
(By the early 90's, in all but the most demure contexts, businessmen routinely wore cartoons on their chests, tucked into grey pinstripe waistcoats. That's not a metaphor; cartoons. Daffy and Elmer Fudd. I saw it with my own eyes. Palms-down buttshake girls in front of Hawaiian sunsets... While selling mortgages.)
The "cite" is your quotation of Miss Manners, whom I've never disagreed with, but never made much time to read, either. (Kinda afraid of finding something I didn't like.) Favorite passage:
As my own middle age roars onward, certain once-forbidden behaviors sneak out with out my awareness until far too late... Snorking sounds in quiet rooms, expressions of unpleasant truth in crowded ones, that kinda thing. Women who truly love me, within the family and without, aren't distressed. (This week I'm attempting a Christmas-y Santa beard: It's as pathetic as that of your 14-year-old nephew, only whiter.)
I meant: Nice comment!
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at December 16, 2010 6:17 PM
PS— I admire Miss Manners like this.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at December 16, 2010 6:32 PM
It's interesting that the complaint seems to be more about behaviour than physical appearance and yet many of the comments are about getting fat or not grooming.
Farting or crapping with the door open has nothing to do with what a person looks like.
I don't know if there is something that Ms. Alkon is leaving out of the letter, but there seems to be a disconnect between "she needs to take care of her looks -- to look good -- to be attractive to him." and "cuts a fart and then comes to bed -- and expects the guy to be all sexed up for her."
The letter-writer doesn't say is wife is putting on weight or that she's stopped waxing, let's say, it's more like he's complaining that she's waxing in front of him and burping while she does it. I don't know how long they have been married, but I can't imagine communication so bad that he can't say "Uh, can you do that with the door closed?" in regards to the bathroom without her freaking out. Or maybe I can and just don't want to think about it.
I posed Amy's question to my husband and he laughed. It's one of those questions to which you already know the answer if you've been married long enough.
My husband is perfectly well aware that his "spare tire" isn't exactly sexy but when I brought it up he pouted and blamed me. He also gets pretty defensive about my mentioning the mutant browlashes and other random things, so I'd say no luck for me.
Or were we only complaining about women?
K.T. Keene at December 16, 2010 9:34 PM
>> Or were we only complaining about women?
Yes.
When the question is..
The question is, have any of you guys had any luck communicating to a woman
Then it's about women.
Sorry about your husband.
mo at December 16, 2010 10:17 PM
Dworkin was deeply damaged. And pretty much full of shit.
Agreed. Once I started reading some of her stuff (for research for a paper I was writing that was against what she was saying, I hasten to add) I was amazed that the feminist party line adopted as much of her as it did. It's true that she said "Violation is a synonym for intercourse," though she later claimed she'd been misunderstood. But she was also against sex of any kind, and it's clearly (at least to me) a result of her deeply, deeply troubled life. In fact, the quote from Madeline Hale on a previous blog post ("My man-hating is simply a function of personal experience and was not brought on by academia or ideology...my problem comes from condescention not from not getting laid") is sort of a truncated version of much of Dworkin's work. It's personal experience extrapolated to be global. The good part is that even a casual reading of either of those women quickly rings the bell on the full-of-shit-ometer if you're not looking to simply reinforce your existing ideology.
So the feminist line about how you should not have to make any effort and your man should still want to do you six ways to Sunday is not what Dworkin was about. She went to extraordinary lengths to not be attractive at all because she didn't approve of sex in any form. Shockingly, the uber-feminist scholarship that worms its way into being semi-mainstream only seem to pick the parts about how men's sexuality is evil.
P.S. I adore Miss Manners. She can give the smackdown like no one else.
NumberSix at December 16, 2010 10:18 PM
Yo, Pirate Jo! I actually live in Montana, not all that far from the border. I could tell you more, but my husband told me I'd have to kill everybody else, and it's just too much trouble.
Pricklypear at December 16, 2010 11:37 PM
Link to that Madeline Hale comment is here:
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/12/15/the_wymyn_have.html
Amy Alkon at December 17, 2010 1:03 AM
"The question is, have any of you guys had any luck communicating to a woman under similar circumstances that she needs to take care of herself and not show all in order to be attractive to you?"
No. To be fair, it's a two-way street - but when she gains ~100 pounds and you're still fit, when pointing out the obvious and objective reasons fitness is superior to sloth as carefully as possible doesn't work, then the only thing that remains is to let her go see that the rest of the world doesn't want to see an overweight woman with personal hygiene issues.
In the process, though, what will happen is that the lady will notice the real world's reaction, make the changes herself - but only remember your flaws, because that's the way to preserve one's ego: pretend you are always correct.
Radwaste at December 17, 2010 5:45 AM
I doubt you'd have to kill us, I can't imagine the rest of us care where you are, pricklypear.
momof4 at December 17, 2010 6:01 AM
What about that "Strangers on A Train" scenario, where you have someone else tell your wife she's got a gross habit and, in turn, you tell his/her spouse the same? I suspect it would work best if you enlisted your wife's friend, and then, you could tell her husband he has a beer belly and nose hair...just a thought.
"So the feminist line about how you should not have to make any effort and your man should still want to do you six ways to Sunday is not what Dworkin was about. She went to extraordinary lengths to not be attractive at all because she didn't approve of sex in any form."
This may sound bad, but I'll throw it out there. I wonder if this is true for a lot more women than we know, and that, in fact, what often inspires feminism, in general, and lesbianism, in particular, is an overall aversion to sex.
Many of the hot lesbian couples you see are obviously having great sex - because they care enough to look sexy. But I pick up a real asexual vibe from a lot of the more frumpy, feminist lesbian couples. Maybe they just cuddle, which is what I suspect a lot of women truly prefer.
lovelysoul at December 17, 2010 6:15 AM
NumberSix: P.S. I adore Miss Manners. She can give the smackdown like no one else.
Me, too! One of my favorite columns of hers was from a woman who had mentioned to her coworkers that she visited a florist to obtain a rare exotic plant and was told that there was one in stock, but it was intended for someone else who had ordered it, and she would have to wait two weeks for them to order another one.
So, she ordered it, and when she arrived home she got a call from the florist shop saying that her plant arrived and she could go pick it up. When she returned to the florists, she realized they had mistaken her for the person who had previously ordered the plant. She took advantage of their confusion and bought the plant.
When she told her coworkers about it, she found her coworkers, instead of rejoicing in her "good fortune," suddenly became abrupt and cold toward her, not speaking to her at all, unless it was a necessary communication for work.
And she asked Miss Manners, "How do I tell my coworkers that their rudeness hurt my feelings?"
Miss Manners, as you would likely anticipate, gave the appropriate and ever-so-polite smackdown.
It was something like, "They weren't being rude. On the contrary, silence is the politest way of expressing moral outrage. Miss Manners would suggest that if you're going to cheat people, you resist bragging about it."
Patrick at December 17, 2010 7:14 AM
But I pick up a real asexual vibe from a lot of the more frumpy, feminist lesbian couples. Maybe they just cuddle, which is what I suspect a lot of women truly prefer.
Have you ever heard the term Lesbian Bed Death? It refers to the disappearance of sexual intimacy between Lesbian couples. Lesbians are the least sexually intimate of any coupling, and what intimacy they have drops off to zero over time. Of course there are exceptions.
The simple answer for why women let themselves go is that they lose their interest in sexual intimacy. They effectively become asexual. This has been recognized for thousands of years. Only recently have we come to the idea that women should be like nubiles their entire lives.
Martin at December 17, 2010 7:15 AM
Addendum: Oh, I just remembered something I had left out. The third sentence of Miss Manners should read, "...Miss Manners, who feels a sudden chill herself, would suggest that if you're going to cheat people, you resist bragging about it."
Patrick at December 17, 2010 7:16 AM
On the other hand, if a woman wants to read a man the riot act about some habit of his that annoys her then he's just supposed to meekly change it immediately.
The double standard lives on.
Locomotive Breath at December 17, 2010 7:18 AM
For a rebuttal of the concept of Lesbian Bed Death, check out http://www.villagevoice.com/2010-06-22/news/myth-of-lesbian-bed-death/.
MonicaP at December 17, 2010 7:30 AM
On the other hand, if a woman wants to read a man the riot act about some habit of his that annoys her then he's just supposed to meekly change it immediately.
Nah. Women who do this are called nags and get all kinds of crap for it, because nagging is unappealing no matter where it's coming from.
MonicaP at December 17, 2010 7:32 AM
That's not a rebuttal, it's several lesbians trying to rationalize the phenomenon and one who claims that it's a myth that serves to appease those heterosexuals who are experiencing “straight panic” over LGBT visibility and power: “
Martin at December 17, 2010 7:37 AM
It's a rebuttal you disagree with, which is fine. A lot of the points remain: that sex tends to taper off even in long-term hetero relationships.
All of my married friends scoff at me for still being interested in sex, telling me I'll think differently when I've been married a few years. One even told me she still wants sex, just not with her husband. (She's not cheating, as far as I know. Just expressing a lack sexual interest in her husband.)
Familiarity and getting mired in the mundane can kill a sex drive dead.
MonicaP at December 17, 2010 7:49 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/12/16/telling_the_ugl.html#comment-1802513">comment from MonicaPActually, people don't understand the female cycle of sexual desire, which is different from the male. I've written about this, but if your local paper doesn't run me (please ask them to), you probably haven't read it. Here's one of the columns on Basson's research:
http://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2007/05/a-tale-of-naked.html
Amy Alkon at December 17, 2010 8:07 AM
Monica the article isn't a rebuttal, it's a few personal anecdotes and a quote from some woman who thinks heterosexuals are panicking over her sexuality. A rebuttal would need to address the claims of the research. This isn't to say that there may not be legitimate criticism of the research, but the village voice article is not that.
Martin at December 17, 2010 8:25 AM
Only speaking for myself, but one thing that sometimes makes me want to give up sex is the pressure to have an orgasm, each and every time. Unlike men, having an orgasm, for a woman, usually takes some effort - a good deal of focus and energy. Often, when I'm dead tired, I just don't care to put in the effort, but that doesn't mean I don't still want to have sex for the closeness and connection. In fact, that's mostly why I enjoy sex.
But men don't usually understand that. For them, it's all about the "O" - ours and theirs. So, we women are often faced with whether to fake it or not. Most guys say, "please don't ever fake it", but when a woman is tired or distracted and realizes it's probably going to take at least 2 hrs of oral just to get her anywhere close to orgasm - and she knows her guy is tired too - it's tempting to fake, which has nothing to do with how great a lover he is.
I mean, sometimes navigating all this is just a hassle, so a lot of women probably just turn off rather than try to communicate about it because it often seems that we're speaking different languages when it comes to sex.
lovelysoul at December 17, 2010 8:30 AM
Only speaking for myself, but one thing that sometimes makes me want to give up sex is the pressure to have an orgasm...
This makes sense. Men seem to take it as a personal rejection when women don't want to have sex (which is why I agree with Amy on this, that women should try to have sex even if they don't feel like it), but it may help men to realize that sex -- and sexual desire -- just works differently for women.
Men don't need to be the world's greatest lovers for sex to be enjoyable, nor does sex have to end with a movie-worthy O every time. This is movie/porn stuff. It DOES help if he's not treating you like the closest available hole.
MonicaP at December 17, 2010 9:07 AM
MonicaP,
Don't disagree. However, that works in the reverse as well, and quite a bit. Shortly after my wife and I got married, she was in the mood, but I wasn't. She took it as a personal insult. It didn't even register for her, that I had just worked an 18 hour day (I worked IT for a law firm at the time, that has offices around the country, so sometimes updates had to happen in the middle of the night), and I was dead tired and just wanted to sleep, and those are the terms I put it in. Didn't make a difference. She still took it personally (as I think most of us do), until we were able to sit and talk about it the next day. It took a bit for her to see it from my perspective.
And the O isn't quite as important, I think, to most guys. There have been times where both my wife and I didn't get there, and still had a lot of fun. :)
Steve at December 17, 2010 10:55 AM
MonicaP - yet you hear stories about young people all the time having "mind blowing sex", I assume the woman is having a shattering orgasm every time. Maybe the problem with you married women is you let yourself go too much and lose that edge single women have.
Crusader at December 17, 2010 1:16 PM
yet you hear stories about young people all the time having "mind blowing sex"
I'm sure it happens for lots of people. I don't know anyone who has ever had "mind-blowing sex" every single time, with any partner. Sex ranges from awesome to awful, with lots of in between, even with the same partner. Also, where are you hearing these stories about mind-blowing sex? Cosmo? Anyone who has been having sex for awhile doesn't need to announce to the world when it's good: It's happened before, it'll happen again.
Maybe the problem with you married women is you let yourself go too much and lose that edge single women have.
Or maybe we just need a partner who knows what he's doing.
MonicaP at December 17, 2010 2:27 PM
Yeah, you have to take those stories with a grain of salt. When I was in my 20s, I had a single gf who was always sleeping with different men and telling me how "hot" it was. Then, one night, she confessed that she'd never had an orgasm. I was so stunned, and I said, "But you're always telling me it's so great!" and she said that it was the thrill of seduction. It made her feel desirable, but she wasn't actually getting off on anything other than the ego thrill.
lovelysoul at December 18, 2010 6:39 AM
Maybe the problem with you married women is you let yourself go too much and lose that edge single women have.
Or maybe we just need a partner who knows what he's doing.
Hey! Remember the topic!
The previous posts have pointed out the role of fatigue in quelling libido.
If you are fit, you don't tire easily and your partner doesn't have to imagine someone more attractive!
If you want something from your partner, you have to make them want to give it to you.
Radwaste at December 18, 2010 8:12 AM
"Only speaking for myself, but one thing that sometimes makes me want to give up sex is the pressure to have an orgasm, each and every time."
That's interesting, because most of us guys have gotten the opposite message. Feminism has drilled it into our heads that if our partner doesn't have Train-Plunging-Into-Tunnel, Waves-Crashing-On-Beach orgasms every time, we are Bad Selfish Lovers, Sexist Pigs, and we probably kick puppies too. I'm not saying you're wrong, because what you like is what you like and that's that. I'm just saying it's the opposite of the usual cultural message.
Cousin Dave at December 18, 2010 8:51 AM
"If you are fit, you don't tire easily and your partner doesn't have to imagine someone more attractive!"
Everybody gets tired, even fit people. I'm fit, and I still get tired. It's more the mental fatique that I was talking about. Female orgasm requires mental focus...at least mine does...and sometimes, I just don't want to focus solely on myself. I'd rather look at him and just enjoy getting him off or feeling connected.
I think the emphasis on orgasm has hurt women too. Ever since Cosmo (and feminism, I guess, though that's not where I got the message) started telling us that we're supposed have earthshattering orgasms every time, women have felt embarrassed or inadequate if they don't have one.
Add to that the porn guys watch, where women are supposedly orgasming within 5 mins, and the average women feels like she must be some outlier because it takes her longer.
The porn is fake. My friend is a male porn star, and he says it's hard enough for him to come - with all the stopping, starting, readjusting camera angles, etc - much less the women. They aren't having real orgasms, but the suggestion that it should be so easy, each and every time, puts pressure on both women and men.
lovelysoul at December 18, 2010 10:54 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/12/16/telling_the_ugl.html#comment-1803315">comment from lovelysoulMany women don't have vaginal orgasms ever or often, and can only have clitoral ones. The problem is, they fake it the first time, and don't tell the guy what works for them (or let him know somehow) and then they feel they can't ever be honest.
Amy Alkon at December 18, 2010 11:00 AM
My ex told me every once in a while she wasn't in the mood. I had no problem with that. Other times she wasn't in the mood to get off. I could deal with just holding her next to me.
Other times she enjoyed me getting her O in any and multiple ways on a given evening.
Men can respect that the big O isn't going to happen. The big thing is just talk to us and let us know what you want. And let the guy be selfish every once in a while.
Jim P. at December 18, 2010 11:10 PM
and feminism, I guess, though that's not where I got the message
I can tell you exactly where I got the message LS. I've always been an avid reader and pinched "Everywoman" off my mother's shelf when I was 12. Hardly appropriate reading at that age, but it gave me a good head start when I started dating...
Reading Joseph Heller's Catch-22 (the best novel ever in my opinion) the same year gave me some other ideas too :)
Ltw at December 21, 2010 7:58 AM
Men can respect that the big O isn't going to happen
Jim P, there's nothing nicer than a partner who is considerate enough to tell you "just ain't going to happen tonight, but it's still nice and you do your bit". I've talked to a few women about this (partners and otherwise) and most are relieved if their man is secure enough to accept that. The pressure of "I have to deliver it to make him feel like a man" is what leads women to fake it.
Ltw at December 21, 2010 8:05 AM
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