speaking of mommy dearest, I wonder if Chua's daughters will eventually pen a skreed against her, and go the other way with their prenting.

Dunno, I have wondered if she is just being a provacateur in pushing this as a good solution, or if she is just trying to prove that her solution was good since she picked it.

either way she sounds like a piece of work... I am wondering how she measures success. Kinda feel sorry for the schmoe she's married to, if she is so extreme.

I work with people who were raised like this. They are almost all profoundly unhappy. What's worse for their careers in science, they are motivated only by success and, one imagines, their mother's voice in their head. This leads to a dearth in creativity in their work, as only an internal drive founded on curiosity and love of science leads to real insights. You can punch a clock in medicine or law and be really successful, but in science it's a dead end in the long term.

Good thing I was adopted as a baby by Caucasians in Virginia!

I've commented on this before, but would like to add that I think it's tragic that those parents who engage in this sort of behavior see their kids as little more than trophies. It's the same thing with those crazy-ass parents who do those baby beauty pagents. It's not about the children, it's about these parents congratulating themselves -either publically like Chau does or privately as they smile smugly at the many trophies their kid won- on what they've managed to goad thier kids into doing. I just want to grab these people, shake them hard, and tell them to get their OWN f*cking life. Maybe then they'd stop torturing their kids!

In an all-Chinese school, where every mother is Amy, do they award all A grades? I guess not, so there is a problem here.

Not to get all multi-cultural on y'all, but these first and second generation immigrants probably had it a lot tougher than those of us whose parents came from Europe four or more generations ago. My Dad ran away from home at age 14 in World War Two to join the British Merchant Marines, so when he raised his children there was a greater expectation of hard work and survival than I am instilling on my child. I am definitely more interested in my child being happy than my father was with my happiness (though we all grew up happy for the most part).

Those who survived Mao, the Communists, the wars in Asia, getting to America, and assimilating here were the tough ones, but their children are caught in the middle of the Xbox generation and their tough parents upbringing. The idyllic childhood of Norman Rockafeller doesn't connect with the parents.

It would be an interesting comparison to those who survived the Holocaust and how stringently they were educated.

OOps- I meant how stringently the oversaw their children's education.

Eric - There's being strict and instilling discipline, then there's child abuse. From the article:

Here are some things my daughters, Sophia and Louisa, were never allowed to do:
.
.
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• not be the No. 1 student in every subject except gym and drama

Her children were not allowed to be less than number 1 in their class. If there were two parents like Amy Chua in that school with a child the same age, then ONE of their children would be being punished all the time, merely because they weren't the absolute best, because there was another parent driving their child the same way.

I found this to be quite interesting considering the stereotype, I too am guilty of believing, regarding Asian children and their schooling. I have always known that Asians put a premium on education and often commended it, but, I guess I never looked at the other side of it long enough to realize that the kids are probably very unhappy.

It's a shame when a child isn't allowed to just be a child and have some fun. Of course school should be a priority but a kids need a break too. They should be allowed to make their mistakes, and have a life outside of school... just like adults do outside of work.

Amy Chua is more extreme than I would be, but I have seen far more of the opposite extreme not to admire the results of what she has done.

And for the record, her daughters are quite happy and helped co-edit her book.

Agree. It's one thing to teach your kid to do his best, follow through on commitments, and live with consequences. It's another to make his life suck.

And what does the bitch have against drama and sports? Drama was my thing in high school. I was in every play, and I got excellent grades. Kids learn valuable lessons about teamwork, cooperation, getting along with others, and commitment from both sports and being in plays. And if you get a big part in a play, your memory gets a considerable workout.

I'm about to make a sweeping, purely anecdotal, possibly unfair generalization: I've met a few too many hard-driving Asians in school and at work who were nit-picky detail hounds, but were totally not creative and couldn't see the big picture for their lives. I'm guessing they were the products of this kind of upbringing.

fyi: Hugo Schwyzer knows about having blood on his hands.

http://hugoschwyzer.net/2010/03/23/the-magic-of-trust-of-consent-power-bdsm-and-professor-student-sex/

Before he became a born again feminist, he had violated professor student roles several times.

Now in his second career, he's the darling of the women's studies set as he rationalizes his prior behavior by preaching the religion of misandry.

So link to him as much as you want, but I ain't taking his advice on anything.

This reminds me of one of my favorite Jewish jokes.

Do you know the Jewish view on abortion?

A fetus is a fetus until it graduates from medical school.

I tell this to all my Jewish doctors and they all laugh uproariously and then tell me it's true!

Jerry --

I'm at a total loss. What is your point? That Ms. Chua's maternal methods are good because you don't like Mr. Schwyzer?

By the way, wanna hear some irony? Ms. Chua's husband, Jed Rubenfeld (like Ms. Chua, also a professor at Yale Law School) studied theater at Juilliard. And his kids aren't allowed to be in a school play?

I never knew her -- she came after my time -- but he seemed pretty normal. What the fuck is he doing to his kids?

Some thoughts

First off as to Drama and Sports. All fun that they maybe, heck I was in drama and I liked it, they are overall are useless courses. Of Drama students I can say out of 10 drama classes with 20 students maybe might ONE might make it big enough to earn money in it for life. Same with sports maybe if your kid is really good and in the right sport he might make something but the odds are so slim. But what is it we tell all the black kids playing basketball yes try hard to get to the NBA but find something to fallback on. Maybe the only real good about sports is you get a proper respect towards health and exercise and your sure as heck do not need to be first to learn that.

I meant to comment on the previous thread. But one concept you also have to understand why Chinese and many immigrant parents push their kids to excel. Children are retirement funds. When you finally start to slow down in your sixties who would you rather stay with you child who you let find himself and is now living in a small apartment trying to find work as an actor or that child who owns two homes and a couple of cars and is a respected doctor.

Also you have to understand is that many cultures have different concepts of family. The west is more individualistic, so we push try to be find your way versus Chinese, Korean, Jewish is you are not just a person you are part of a small community called a family. Heck here in Korea is is expected kids live at home till they get married. They are not really expected to work BUT to study! When children are older and have their own children grandparents are expected to help babysit and raise because that is what is expected. (Thru first born boy usually get the most concentration). So on to many other little things.

There is a certain "Keeping up with the Kims" mentality in Korea. Sometimes it is with material goods others it shows thru with children. Oh my kid not only goes to Math "Hagwon/cram school" but he also does English, and TaeKwonDo.

As to no watching TV boo frigging woo. TV and computer games are horrible. Me I am addicted to TV and I sure as hell wish my mother had been worse with it (heck she was pretty strict). I may not be a parent but if I had a choice of my kid smoking or watching TV. I would prefer them to smoke at least they would meet some people. Actually that is my thinking if I catch my kid smoking I give them a choice no TV or computer games till they leave home or smoking!

More thoughts to come later! Maybe!

No one is saying drama and sports are valuable because you might make a lot of money doing them as a profession. They're valuable because they teach other life skills. And they're fun -- nothing in the world wrong with a little fun. I did drama and I'm athletic, and I watched TV, and guess what, I was an excellent student and successful (and happy). What Ms. Chua is doing to her kids is not essential to success. It's child abuse.

Also -- "children are retirement funds"? I hope you don't have kids.

You should be your own damn retirement fund.

I find this whole thing macabrely amusing from my perspective as someone who graduated (with honors!) from one of The Schools into which Ms. Chua was desperately trying to get her daughters admitted. Not Yale -- the one a few hours north of Yale, in Massachusetts.

For one thing, I don't know if she realizes that the schools she's targeting value achievement and good grades, yes...but they also value diversity of activities. I've interviewed kids for my alma mater and I can't remember seeing one who only had one activity on his/her CV, no matter how impressive. Know what else these schools like, at least from well-off applicants? Volunteer/community work. I don't see any reference to that here.

Know another thing they like? Distinctiveness. Diversity not just in the sense of ethnicity, but also in the sense of interests. I hate to break it to Ms. Chua, but there are a boatload of Asian students applying to top schools who are experts in math and music. Her daughter who refused to play along and took up tennis instead is very shrewd; there are not a lot of Asian tennis players applying to top schools. What do I care that she's Asian? I don't, but the combination of her ethnicity and interests is rather distinctive. (I don't think it's a coincidence that who I think may be the first U.S.-born Asian NBA player, Jeremy Lin, graduated from Harvard. There aren't going to be many Asian basketball players applying to any U.S. schools. He stood out.)

What I really don't get is the refusal to allow playdates and sleepovers. Okay, so...basically her daughters aren't supposed to have friends? Talk about stunting their futures! At least in the U.S., your ability to make connections with your peers is vitally important to future success. I can assure you that I had playdates and sleepovers. So did my friends at college, back in the day. Taking a few hours out from studying to socialize did not harm our intellectual development -- in fact, I'd argue that it helped mine, especially in later years of grade school.

Now, do I think there's a grain of truth to what Ms. Chua is preaching? Sure. When I was a teenager and young adult, U.S. culture seemed to be flooded with messages that teenagers who studied hard and were ambitious about their futures were joyless grinds who needed to loosen up and forget about that awful Ivy League. I cannot count the number of teen movies I saw with that message -- everything from "Dead Poets' Society" to "Pump Up the Volume" to "Risky Business" seemed to preach this line that wanting to do well academically would stunt one's development. On the real-life side, I remember charming incidents such as the one in which a teacher at my high school referred disparagingly to the practice of "grade-grubbing." Wanting to work hard at school and activities did not appear to be particularly valued from a cultural perspective. I notice that this appears to have changed in pop culture, but that's happened at a time in which kids get trophies just for participating and we hear non-stop preaching about the importance of self-esteem. I don't think it's bad, per se, to help kids set goals, to encourage them to live up to their potential, and even to push them a bit. Kids benefit from structure.

But if Ms. Chua can't think of a more effective motivation technique than refusing to allow her child to eat or drink until something is done successfully, then I don't think much of her people skills. Plenty of parents who have kids accepted to top schools manage to be kind, rather than harsh, with their children. In fact, I'd say most do. Because I *know* the people who have attended those schools. I have no doubt that Ms. Chua's book will sell, but if people really think it's a manual for getting their kids set on the path to academic nirvana, they might want to think again.

Sigh. Just what I'd expect from a Yalie.

Of course you're right that Harvard, Yale, etc. like diversity and interesting activities on student applications. But they also do take a good number of not particularly interesting grinds with perfect test scores and grades -- particularly if their parents can pay the full ride, and particularly if their parents are alums who donate to the school. (Actually, I don't have a problem with that at all -- the ivy league dishes out plenty of scholarships and financial aid to students without family wealth and connections, and somebody's got to pay their way or that can't happen.)

Ms. Chua and her husband are both extremely well-connected and very talented (misguided, but talented). I have no doubt their kids are very talented, too. And I doubt very much either of them are going going to have much difficulty getting into Yale or Harvard or wherever they want, whether or not they were in drama club.

But that's just it -- why deny them drama club? It won't hurt them and it might help. And it just might make them happy.

I'd love to ask her husband how he feels about the drama thing -- obviously his Juilliard drama training didn't make him less of an academic superstar.

What transpired when Chua's daughters gave her handmade birthday cards:

I gave the card back to Lulu. “I don’t want this,” I said. “I want a better one — one that you’ve put some thought and effort into. I have a special box, where I keep all my cards from you and Sophia, and this one can’t go in there.”
“What?” said Lulu in disbelief. I saw beads of sweat start to form on Jed’s forehead.
I grabbed the card again and flipped it over. I pulled out a pen from my purse and scrawled ‘Happy Birthday Lulu Whoopee!’ I added a big sour face. “What if I gave you this for your birthday Lulu- would you like that? But I would never do that, Lulu. No — I get you magicians and giant slides that cost me hundreds of dollars. I get you huge ice cream cakes shaped like penguins, and I spend half my salary on stupid sticker and erase party favors that everyone just throws away. I work so hard to give you good birthdays! I deserve better than this. So I reject this.” I threw the card back.

There can be an argument made* for pushing your kids academically and with extracurriculars (even though, as a counselor of mine once said to me, you can't possibly do your very best at everything all the time--it's not possible), but to tell your kids that you won't accept their cards because you spend lots of money on them for stuff you think is stupid? Horrible.

*I am not in any way defending her parenting style here. I, too, think she's so far beyond the line between strict and power trip that she can't even see it anymore--the line is a dot to her.

I think many chinese parents have a bad habit of either pushing their children too hard or too extreme in their parenting or neglect too much the potential of their children other nonmaterialistic ability or deny their children the ability or the right to pursue a happy life.
If a parents failed to develop a child self esteem and a child self confidence, then it failed in their parenting duty. Providing a child financially is important but it is even more more important to develop the child in an appropriate direction that is best suited to the child interest, instead of repressing an innocent child interest or pushing a child inappropriately.

Excelling in academic related matters may by admirable, but having the maturity to respect for a child that is not as academically bright is also important. Chinese who were born with certain impatient arrogance would most certainly cause alot of irreparable damage to a child development.

I agree that asians on the whole should not boast too much about their real or socalled ability in the western world.

F the chinese, the men have little pricks and the women just lay there and accept, boring,nothing to envy at all

"Asian girls and young women have especially high suicide rates"....nothing compared to the suicide rates of men since men are anyway burdened with the responsibilities of life.

"Many of them, particularly in my Humanities and Gender Studies classes" - big red flag. So the writer is a humanities and gender studies teacher. That itself makes the worth of her opinion suspect.
The opinion of a person who does not generate wealth or even earn her own money by doing something productive and instead lives by sponging off people who generate wealth cannot be considered good in any way.Everyone knows what a farce humanities and gender studies are and that they are just feminist indoctrination programs that are funded with tax money. And everyone also knows the cooked up statistics that feminists resort to in order to get more free money. So I would definitely look very hard at the opinion of someone who is involved in a field like that. And the quality of her students is also definitely suspect as anyone who intends to be a productive member of society would not go into her classes except for the purpose of attending one of the mandatory humanities electives grades.

I bought my son a Wii for Christmas. I bought my daughter an easy bake oven, those were their big gifts, they got a good number of smaller ones as well, all total I probably spent about 600-700 between the two of them.

If my children handed me cards that were hand made with their own little fingers and creative minds that said with every spray of glitter and every reused ribbon, "Daddy will like this, he'll think its wonderful." I'd cherish it in the spirit in which it is given.

I'm accustomed to harshness, and when it comes to discipline I am hard on my children, even more so in some ways than I am on the soldiers entrusted to me.

However never in a billion years would I even consider telling my beloved children any variation of: "I won't accept this, I spend lots on you and deserve better."

That woman is horrible to my mind beyond measure as a parent. She is worthy of every ounce of hatred and contempt her children will heap upon her when they are grown and gone.

I usually laugh at the concept of therapy for most people, but for them, I would recommend it when they grow up, so that they do not become the example that they had.

I honestly wish I had never read the birthday card story - that broke my heart. I started by merely not understanding Chua, now I hate her guts. If hers was the only method of parenting that guaranteed success, I would rather have my kids end up lifetime fast-food workers.

The cruelty of most asians is less obvious, if you are a well off foreigner. I have noted that
it is not only irresponsible, uncaring, exploitive selfish asian parents, but too many well off asians strangers/employers/dictators also tend to be extremely abusive when they have the upper hand.

I subscribe to the theory that the style promoted in her book is completely wrong. If parents place their own interests above the needs and interests of their children and force them to do everything according to their wishes this may have detrimental consequences once those children grow up.