This is why I hate flying - my personal space extends about two feet from my body most of the time. I don't like close talkers either. I was commuting interstate a lot last year and once got a full row of three seats to myself - absolute heaven :)

Some people just don't seem to care about random physical contact with strangers.

Oh, and by the way, I first started out with "Do you mind not touching me? Every time you do, it wake me up."

If somebody at least tries to keep to their own space, I'll deal. But, this guy was a small guy and I'm guessing he just thought, "I bet I can just spread out. She's a girl -- she's not gong to complain."

Again, miraculously, once I made clear that I wasn't going to put up with it, his out-of-control arms and elbows somehow got in control.

And P.S I even told him he could have the arm rest all to himself. I just don't want to be jabbed over and over again or touched at all by strangers...government-employed or those "employed" in being presumptuous assholes.

Hmm.. I think my response might have been something along the lines of "if you 'bleed' into my space one more time, you'll find yourself bleeding profusely through your nose."

This is why I try to get the aisle seat as often as I can (our travel office keeps track of these things). That way, at least I won't be an RPM sandwich, crushed between two people, or between another person and the window. That, and I won't have to clamber over other people's feet if I have to get up and walk around.

I wonder how the "bleed"-er would have responded if Gregg had been awake during the guy's rude shenanigans. This is why, if I MUST travel, I prefer cars or trains! :-) Anyway, I'm glad you were able to once again conquer rudeness -- *brava!*

I sat in the middle seat so Gregg could have the window. I have a very sweet boyfriend. On the way there, he got upgraded to business class and gave me his seat. He always does that -- he insists I take it. Luckily, on the way there, he had an exit row seat with only one other person in it.

I find threats of violence unhelpful -- also, I'm thin and have the wrists of an 8-year-old child. I don't look like I could take anyone on. What I do make it clear that I can do is annoy the living fuck out of you if you continue to abuse me.

Oh, wow, Amy, do I ever know where you're coming from! I used to commute on the train every day, and this was a constant problem. Men have no sense of personal space. When I wasn't being grabbed or groped by some moron, I was doing battle to keep them from "bleeding" into my seat. I used to steel myself, hoping against hope that a woman would sit down next to me and not a man.

And you're right -- they don't pull this shit with other men. I've watched it, hundreds of times. I once actually got into an argument with a guy because he shoved my arm off the arm-rest. Shoved it. Mais oui -- he has the right to take up as much space as he wants, didn't I know that? Silly girl.

Incidentally, I have found this even with otherwise considerate men. My husband routinely kind of spreads all over the place in seats -- at restaurants, in theaters, you name it. I end up quietly pointing out, "Uh, do you think you could put a check on that? You're sharing space with other people."

I first started out with "Do you mind not touching me? Every time you do, it wake me up."

Right there. Assuming you weren't getting worked up about a single, stray arm brushing, he should have taken note and scrupulously avoided further contact.

How people cannot get that sort of stuff always amazes me. And yes, you are right, had your boyfriend been next to him my guess is he would have been much more attentive to avoiding contact. (It is a straight guy thing, trust me.)

Good for you, Amy.

This happens on the subway - where men feel the need to sit with their legs spread a mile apart.

I don't get it. I have longer legs than the majority of the population so it's not because they're all tall (I'm five-ten but my hips are a good 4-6 inches higher-up than other people of the same height. Short torso). Or fat. Or muscular. Or young or old. It seems to be something that men of all types will do with the one common trait being that they're rude.

Women will sometimes do this with their bags.

My husband may need to take a business trip to Texas in April. He's a very large man, six foot five, very broad and heavy too. It is ridiculous watching him try to squeeze into theater-type seats as his shoulders graze the middle of each of the seats next to him. He can tuck his legs in, but his knees would probably be grazing the seat in front of him.
I'm concerned that he might be asked to buy an extra seat after he is on the plane. I love my husband and wouldn't want him to suffer the embarrassment (especially in front of his boss). I'm also concerned because the company would be purchasing the first ticket and it might cause us some financial strain to pick up the other seat, especially if we have bought me a ticket so I can go along.
I wish I could say that diet/exercise between now and then would solve the problem but that's not a cure for a fifty four inch chest.
I would love some advice.

You're right Amy. It's a big problem. If there is free seating, the worst offenders will scan the room looking for the slimmest female. I have put on some weight. The only good part about it is that I actually have much less crowding. The seat bleeders tend to avoid me. I noticed that it even happened at concerts. People would crowd into my space and even in front of me. It is now as though I take up enough space to hold my own. Those types of people look for an easier target.

"I Sometimes Bleed Into The Seat Of The Person Next To Me"

Well, I sometimes drool when I'm sleeping, but I try not to drool when I'm awake and annoy other people with it.

On the same note, I had to take my mother to the hospital the other day for a blood transfusion. She is very elderly and I think her bone marrow is just not producing blood the way it once did. The first time we went, I got a wheel chair out of the lobby. Big mistake. The thing was so wide that both of us could have probably sat in it. Designed to carry people up to about 500 pounds I bet. The extra width made it very hard to maneuver and it got stuck in the door going out to the parking garage because of the push bar door opener. When I got into the hospital, I realized why it had to be that way. Every third person I saw, including the employees were all grossly obese. That afternoon, on the way home I bought one of those transporters which is like a wheel chair but you can't propel it yourself. You need someone pushing it. Small, folds up and easily maneuverable. Perfect for taking my mother to the Dr and out shopping. She just can't walk far enough anymore to go without something like this. Besides all the motorized carts in the stores are usually being ridden around on by the 500 pound people.

I hear ya, Jen. Except I've been losing weight, so people are starting to crowd me again. Like Friday night, I went to see Johnny Winter. (Great show, he's gained weight, he's actully got a little belly roll going on! lol!) I like to stand near the bar, by the sound booth. People left and right were shoving and jostling all around me. As soon as anyone got too close, I shoved 'em (gently, at first) back into their own space. One group of people, 3 guys and 2 girls, were making it so totally obvious about crowding me, they were dancing and what not, but each time one of them got in front of me, so that I couldn't see, I would move them gently but firmly out of my way. And smiled while doing it. Because I'm older now, and I don't put up with anyone's bullshit anymore. Eventually they wandered closer to the stage and started shoving other people out of their way. They didn't exactly start a fight, but they weren't making any friends!

This is why I always wear Doc Martins to concerts. If a polite 'Would y'all please stop crowding/shoving/elbowing me". Doesn't work, an "accidental" Doc heel to the instep while dancing followed by a "So sorry! I didn't realize you had gotten that close again." . Works wonders. I wear the Darcy, higher heeled boot, hurts more, even makes skinheads back off (loooong story).

My worst encouter with a seat bleeder happened on a short leg from Tucson to Phoenix. It was the middle of summer, so over 100 degrees, and I ended up next to a morbidly obese man (400lbs?)who in all honesty couldn't have fit in one seat if he tried.

He was a mouth breather, and his breath was so hideous that I actually used my shirt as a filter for air. I felt sorry for him though, because his breaths were so labored and I thought it must be a terrible way to live, so I didn't say anything.

My sympathy began to waver when he took out his meat sandwich and proceeded to apply five of those little mayonaise packets to it. He ate that sandwich, with mayonaise actually dripping out onto his hands. The sound of him chewing and mouth-breathing simultaneously was--disgusting.

The walking, sitting, and eating must have tuckered him out because seconds after he finished his sandwich that man was asleep, and snoring so agressively that his spit was hitting my face. His snoring was loud enough to attact the attention of all the other passengers, who had started giving me sympathetic looks.

At the time I felt guilty for feeling disgust towards a person who was obese. In hindsight, I wonder why I let myself be victimized by some ill-mannered schmuck who preyed on my misplaced sympathy so he could behave like an animal.

I am tall and confident that I'm much stronger than most people.

I find that standing with my arms crossed, or standing up very straight with my feet hip-width apart (power stance!) is helpful. I also channel a pissed-off look when I'm in a big crowd. It says "fuck with me and I will hurt you." I don't feel badly for appearing unfriendly in certain circumstances.

Good when you're walking through a group of tourists or past the moms pushing 18-wheelers down the side walk by the Children's Museum, too.

If I'm in a bar and people push me I just use my forearm to resist. I don't necessarily push but it gets the message across that they shouldn't push me.

As I read this, I thought one of your responses might be: "If you don't stop figuratively bleeding in to my space you will be literally bleeding into my space". Then I thought that wouldn't be realistic because you are not allowed to have sharp objects on a plane. Then I thought you could use a sharp finger or thumb nail. Then I thought "What would the TSA do if that happened?" Checking fingernails wouldn't take that much time, and they should already have plenty of confiscated nail clippers.

Sorry, I tend to go off on tangents.

"I told him I didn't want to be touched by anybody but my boyfriend"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCrDuGyZ6FA&feature=related

"What are you going to do, BLEED on me?!"

-Graham Chapman, in full armor

I can picture our spunky Amy, "You bleed over, I'll make you bleed!" Yay, Amy!

As someone who used to fly quite a bit (and for a couple of years, a ridiculous amount -- I mean to the point the flight attendants learned my name) I found that big people will flow into your seat regardless. It always seemed to me the rule was to work together and stuff was just going to happen. Just something you had to accept as part of mass transit. On a few occasions it has worked somewhat well...short fat guy flowing in down below with me overhanging up above.

As some who is broad shouldered, my hips fit easily between the armrests but my shoulders are not. I can do this kind of crunch and it works but my muscles will start killing me.

I see the problem in the product the airlines are offering. I would love to purchase a slightly bigger seat for a slightly higher price. When I did the math for a particular flight, I could upgrade to business class which as slightly less then twice the square inches (based on info from seat guru) for over 10x the price. United's premium economy only adds a couple inches of leg room...I have only been able to get it once for extra +100 for one way on a ~300$ roundtrip.

Usually what I try to do is get a aisle seat and just hang into the aisle and let the cart and people bang into me.

Oh, when I asked about a buying two seats together, I was not eligible for that. I could buy two seats but they were not guaranteed to be together and if the flight was above a certain percentage of full, the second ticket would be cancelled. I could buy two tickets at full retail price (e.g. not what you see on Expedia) and the tickets would be guaranteed but could still be cancelled. This was talking to the airline rep on the phone.

This is when medical training comes in handy.

When I encounter "bleeders", I often start coughing and hacking like a character from a Charles Dicken's novel. I then look at the person, and say "Gosh, I am so sorry. I've had this nasty bronchial thing going on since I got back from Uganda, and the doctors just cannot figure it out. But I'm pretty sure it's not contagious ."

Another fav is to start scratching at arm furiously (I always wear a light sweater on a plane), and look at the "Bleeder" and say,,,'The hotel I was staying at had an outbreak of Pseudomonas aeruginosa in their pool. Now, I've got cream on, but the doctors say it's SUPER CONTAGIOUS, so you might want to stay over there. Thanks!"

I remember the time a "bleeder" on the subway used the opportunity to cop a feel. Good times.

Interestingly enough I encountered a space hog on the subway over the weekend, and it wasn't a man. It was a well-dressed, seemingly wealthy woman with an attitude who was attempting to wrap herself around an entire pole and lean on it. Unless she was planning on spinning around it, she didn't need that much space. And in trying to be nice I had actually moved my hand from the top of the pole to the middle so I could hold on without it being inches from her face. That's when she proceded to become one with the pole and push on my hand. She had ample room around her to stand away from the pole; she just didn't want to. At that point I refused to let go, so as long as she insisted on pushing on the pole she was getting my knuckles in her side. But if she looked annoyed then, it was nothing compared to when a huge crowd of people shoved onto the train and left her hanging on for dear life by two fingers and a fully extended arm. :-)

I have actually learned how to take up more space as a slim female. I am not petite like our Amy, but I am not broad either. I am 5'9" and a size 6 with an athletic build. So while not tiny, I certainly don't take up a lot of room naturally. Men used to crowd me on the subway all.the.time. Now, during rush hour, the trains get crowded so it's expected that some personal space boundries are going to be a little more lax, but theres a difference between someone accidentally bumping you, or brushing you, and someone trying to inabit the same space as you. I learned that if I stood with my feet firmly planted, at hip width, held onto the pole with a firm grip, and did not budge when they tried to scoot themselves into my space, they would back off. If I acted like I owned the space they didn't try to take if from me.

Sitting on the train however, well... there's the guy that used me as a pillow for three stops... (this was before I learned to stick up for myself)... luckily for me, another gentlman saw that I was uncomfortable and confronted the guy for me.

I haven't figured out how to make then stop bleeding into my space on planes yet, or using thier legs as space invaders on trains, other than making myself as obnoxious as possible when they do...

The worst - the absolute worst was a redeye flight across the country (Seattle to Charlotte).

I didn't begrudge the fact that we were right in front of the bulkhead - someone has to be. And I didn't mind that the Ass next to me wouldn't trade seats with my fiance so we could sit together (I did mind that he spent five minutes going on about how it would be a nice thing to do and he was nice but he wasn't going to do it). But the Ass next to me went on to display every damn behavior that won't actually get you kicked off of the airplane. Mild sexual harassment of the flight attendent, getting drunk, throwing his pillow at the girls sitting in front of him, bleeding onto my seat, hogging the entire armrestm, and finally falling into a drunken sleep and snoring halitosis all over me with the volume of a lovesick moose. All of that I could handle. The thing that drove me completely around the bend was that he farted every twelve minutes like clockwork for the entire damn flight.

I don't put up with shit from my fellow passengers anymore. That guy managed to use up an entire lifetime of me being reasonably spineless.

This isn't related to the rudeness aspect of this thread, but rather the personal space aspect of this thread. It's a travel story that happened to me a few weeks ago and it still makes me laugh, so I felt compelled to share.

I live in Korea and, holy mackerel, if you have serious personal space issues (thankfully, I don't), this is not the country for you.

Returning from a sightseeing trip in a town about an hour and a half bus ride from the city where I live, I was fortunate to catch one of the last busses of the night. All the seats were taken, but there were a lot of people that still needed to get home. All aboard.

Before I knew it, I was sitting in the aisle with my rear end and feet on the floor and my knees jammed up in front of me. Everyone lining the aisle was seated in the same way and using the legs behind them as a backrest while the person in front of them used their legs as a backrest.

Soon, the guy in front of me fell soundly asleep and his head lolled straight back, bouncing along with the bus' very soft suspension as we raced down the highway at breakneck speeds. And breakneck seemed like an accurate adjective as I thought this guys head was going to snap right off.

I couldn't figure out how this guy could sleep like that, but genuinely worried that he was going to get whiplash as his sleeping, drooling, and violently bouncing face stared up at me. I wound up grabbing my shins in such a way that my forearms would serve as a sort of brace/pillow for him.

You could say that we were all "bleeding" into each other's space, but hey, everyone on the bus managed to get where they were going and I was inwardly laughing my ass off the whole trip.

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