Why Men Lie Up And Women Lie Down
Satoshi Kanazawa blogs at Psychology Today:
Both men and women lie, but they lie about different (and predictable) things.Whether in personal ads or in face-to-face conversations, men tend to lie about their earnings and their height. In contrast, women tend to lie about their age and their weight. And both men and women often lie about the number of sexual partners they have had in their lives.
On all of these dimensions, men typically lie upwards and women typically lie downwards. Men pretend that they make more money than they actually do, they pretend that they are taller than they actually are, and they pretend that they have had more sexual partners than they actually have. In contrast, women pretend that they are younger than they actually are, they pretend that they are lighter than they actually are, and they pretend that they have had fewer sexual partners than they actually have.
...In other words, women lie and pretend to be what they used to be before in the past, whereas men lie and pretend to be what they will be in the future (or what they hope to become in an alternate universe or in their fantasy).
He doesn't exactly mince words on feminism. My problem with it: Modern feminism is too often about how things "should" be instead of how they are. I got piles of hate mail for explaining how they are in a piece I wrote for Psychology Today about the realities about beauty.
As I recently told a reader of my column who wrote me a snarly letter, women's worth devalues as they get older and men's tends to go up. Women get less attractive over time, and less valuable as partners, and men have the possibility of getting more valuable as partners by getting richer and more powerful.
Sorry if that's not how you think things "should" be -- it's just how they are.
Thanks, Captain Obvious.
WhistleDick at May 11, 2011 4:34 AM
It is, indeed, how they are, though it's interesting to compare how they are more so in this country than in Europe. As I'm sure you know, women of a certain age have no problem attracting men in, for example, France and Italy, where there's much more appreciation of Woman qua Woman.
Lisa Simeone at May 11, 2011 4:47 AM
True Lisa...but the brothels over there do HUGE business.
And guess what the ages of the employed women tend to be.
I ought to know, I've visited enough of them. Ahhh the memories, I miss Europe.
Robert at May 11, 2011 5:01 AM
Um, ladies?
I'm 6'5", a little handsomer than George Clooney, a little tougher than Chuck Norris, and a little richer than the Donald. I'm typing this from my yacht, while engineering a hostile takeover.
Just thought you'd like to know.
Old RPM Daddy at May 11, 2011 5:06 AM
Yeah, Robert, and those brothels are full of girls who've been trafficked. Nice.
Lisa Simeone at May 11, 2011 5:12 AM
Wow. I agree with you, but it's depressing, although I have to ask, as a 40(ish? am I right?) woman, how does that make you feel? Worthless?
Choika at May 11, 2011 5:36 AM
Life is unfair, and then you die.
As a 60(ish) guy, there isn't enough future to delude even myself about how great it's going to be. Instead, I go with today being a nice day, I'm still married to a nice, good looking lady who likes me (proof that there are miracles), and I've still got a job and my health.
I don't need a lot of money to have everything I need.
MarkD at May 11, 2011 6:05 AM
Trafficked? All of them? Assuming that all women who sell sex are victims has its own problems, chief amongst them disempowerment of women.
How do I get on the committee that decides who has moral agency and who needs the State to tell them how to live? What, exactly, are the qualifications?
--
phunctor
phunctor at May 11, 2011 6:28 AM
"As I'm sure you know, women of a certain age have no problem attracting men in, for example, France and Italy, where there's much more appreciation of Woman qua Woman."
/eyeroll
You know those guys who watch too much porn, and as a result they generally cannot discern that such fare does not, in any way, depict the reality of female sexuality?
Yup, well, there are female equivalents, and when you encounter someone suffering from similar female-centric delusions, you know it. This comment is the product of one such sufferer.
Spartee at May 11, 2011 6:33 AM
"Wow. I agree with you, but it's depressing, although I have to ask, as a 40(ish? am I right?) woman, how does that make you feel? Worthless?"
I suppose that depends on where she obtains her sense of worth.
After reading these blog posts for a year or two, I suspect Ms. Alkon obtains only plenty of her sense of self-worth from other sources that aging will not unduly burden her outlook on life.
Spartee at May 11, 2011 6:36 AM
Oops. Edit: "I suspect Ms. Alkon obtains plenty of her sense of self-worth from other sources, such that aging will not unduly burden her outlook on life."
Spartee at May 11, 2011 6:37 AM
"More valuable as a partner" is wildly subjective though...to whom...for what...and for how long?
My ex is 63, handsome, and very wealthy, but he still can't get a partner in her 20s, and really, even 30s. He may occassionally get dates with women that age, but it never lasts. And, if they are interested, it's only for his money...because he's not really "more valuable" as a partner. He's still unfaithful and a little crazy.
The only women who find that kind of man "more valuable" as a partner usually have issues (and I say this as a former woman with issues). Sure, they're richer and more powerful, but is that really the standard a smart woman sets (or should set) for a valuable partner?
I've learned - from actually having all that - it's not what it's cracked up to be, and most of my fellow trophy wives discovered the same. A rich, powerful, jerk is still a jerk, and many of the richest, most powerful men are jerks. That's how they came to be rich and powerful.
lovelysoul at May 11, 2011 7:09 AM
I need to go to Sephora after work. Thanks for the reminder.
ahw at May 11, 2011 7:29 AM
A lady friend once told me that the way to get over a man was to get under another one.
Roger at May 11, 2011 7:31 AM
Wow. I agree with you, but it's depressing, although I have to ask, as a 40(ish? am I right?) woman, how does that make you feel? Worthless?
I take care of myself (see pictures above and here: http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/06/28/la_press_club_a_4.html ). Oh, and I'm 47.
And this, by Spartee, is quite correct: "After reading these blog posts for a year or two, I suspect Ms. Alkon obtains only plenty of her sense of self-worth from other sources that aging will not unduly burden her outlook on life."
Amy Alkon at May 11, 2011 7:31 AM
Sunday, Gregg came to meet me and hang with me at Starbucks and looked at me (in a form-fitting sweater and jacket and long flowing pants and high heels, with my hair down and just a little eyeshadow and pink lipstick) and told me I'd never looked prettier.
I'm not 21-year-old hot, but I think I look much better -- I look like "somebody" now...I look like me. More sophisticated. And I'm in the best bodily shape I've been since I was in high school thanks to eating low carb. I also have personal style that's highly developed. I typically wear slinky (mermaid-style) evening dress skirts as daywear with a leather jacket and high-heeled boots. Just to go write at a cafe or go pick up my mail.
The kind of man I'm interested in is going to appreciate a 21-year-old for her 21-year-old hotness but not want one as a partner. The same goes for the sort of men who are interested in hot friends of mine who are not 21, like Catherine, a professor-friend who comments here sometimes, and my journalist friend Nancy Rommelmann, whose first gem of a first novel, "The Bad Mother," was just published.
Amy Alkon at May 11, 2011 7:47 AM
"Wow. I agree with you, but it's depressing, although I have to ask, as a 40(ish? am I right?) woman, how does that make you feel? Worthless?"
No not worthless, but worth less than you used to be. When you just spent you last 20 yrs being on top, having people fawn all over you, not having random people buy you drinks is quite a let down. But that is more because your past was so high rather than the future being so bleak.
Joe at May 11, 2011 8:20 AM
"The kind of man I'm interested in is going to appreciate a 21-year-old for her 21-year-old hotness but not want one as a partner."
I guess I wonder, then, why you focus so often on the other type of men in your blog. Saying women become less valuable as partners as we age seems to run counter to even your own philosophy and experience in life.
Yes, men are visual, but there are plenty out there with more depth than that, and we both found one, even at an older age.
I just feel like I have to pick the older women up off the floor after these blog posts - remind them that there's hope. On the surface, the info is quite discouraging. But happiness and relationship success isn't based in quantity but quality. We older women may attract fewer men, but I think the ones we do attract are better men...and much more valuable partners than the stereotypical "rich and powerful" man.
In keeping with your statement I quoted, the kind of woman I'm interested in being - and the kind of women I admire most - may appreciate a rich, powerful man for his ability to pick up the tab at dinner, or buy a piece of jewelry. She may find that an amusing, handy trait to have in a friend, but she doesn't want (or need) one as a partner...unless he's also a decent human being.
lovelysoul at May 11, 2011 8:35 AM
You nailed it Amy...and its not just feminists who have a problem with how things "should" be. Try some of the dating sites where guys regularly get bitched out by 40+ women for not answering their profiles or ignoring their emails. The worst is getting chastised for the old "men should be attracted to what is on the inside" garbage.
mike at May 11, 2011 8:35 AM
Hey, you know what's a more attractive quality than age, wealth, weight, height, or prowess? Honesty. The truth will out, looks will change, everyone gets old. Long term, a trustworthy person is better catch than a thin, tall, rich, young lying asshole. Give me a solid character over any of the above, any day of the week.
mse at May 11, 2011 8:38 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2011/05/11/why_men_lie_up.html#comment-2125957">comment from lovelysoul"The kind of man I'm interested in is going to appreciate a 21-year-old for her 21-year-old hotness but not want one as a partner." I guess I wonder, then, why you focus so often on the other type of men in your blog. Saying women become less valuable as partners as we age seems to run counter to even your own philosophy and experience in life.
It's true. Women in America, in general, seem to take care of themselves according to the "Men 'should' like me..." model.
I don't give advice based on my life or my needs. I'm a weirdo, an outlier.
IF you remain interesting and especially if you live a life of the mind, you are likely to remain more interesting to men. But, there are also costs. I don't cook, I don't want kids, just for starters.
And David Buss found in his massive study of what men and women want that we all prioritize kindness in a partner, but how many of you women are going to partner up with a really kind homeless man and how many of you men are going to partner up with a 350-lb sweetiepie?
Amy Alkon at May 11, 2011 8:41 AM
Well, I can honestly say I attract far hotter men now than I did in high school. Some of the guys I dated in my early 40s looked like models. True, maybe I'm an outlier. Like you, I'm in good shape and lot more attractive than other women my age (47). But I think that's only a part of it.
Confident men like confidence in women. I might've had fewer wrinkles at 20, but I was insecure and dependent (I remember bawling over a tiny zit and thinking I "wasn't pretty"). As an older woman, I know who I am and what I stand for. Men of all ages find that sexy...as long as it's not packaged in lots of flesh. That part is true - being fat is almost universally unattractive (to both sexes). But it's unattractive at 25 too.
lovelysoul at May 11, 2011 8:52 AM
No more than I'd partner up with a lying sack of shit just because he has a fat portfolio. It's not an all-or-nothing. And truth be told, I would literally and honestly rather be married to a good man who was also a fatty than a tall, rich prick. Guys can lose weight. Douchewad behavior tends to cling.
mse at May 11, 2011 8:53 AM
"And David Buss found in his massive study of what men and women want that we all prioritize kindness in a partner, but how many of you women are going to partner up with a really kind homeless man and how many of you men are going to partner up with a 350-lb sweetiepie?"
That's extreme. Most people don't make partner choices in an all-or-nothing fashion like that. But will a guy choose a kinder girl with a few extra pounds over a skinny girl with a bitchy, demanding attitude? Usually, yes.
Will most intelligent women choose a guy who is kind to her over a blowhard, controlling Mr. Moneybags? Usually, yes. Not always, but the more mature she is, the more likely she will.
The point is why do any of us want partners with lesser standards? You don't want a guy like that. Nor do I, so what does it matter if we can attract 50 of them or 5?
My husband and I were out the other night, and some young, attractive guy kept hitting on me, using every line in the book and bragging about his career. My husband was saying, "Wow, he's aggressive!" But it was just amusing because both of us knew that I wouldn't be with that guy if he was the last guy on earth.
And, when the time comes that a kid like that fails to hit on me, why should I be sad over it or feel "less valuable"?
lovelysoul at May 11, 2011 9:11 AM
why does it have to be "hate male" and not hate mail?
Little Freudian Feminist slip working it's way into the language there? Kind of unlike you really.
Just a cheap poke for a typo!
mlah at May 11, 2011 9:15 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2011/05/11/why_men_lie_up.html#comment-2126076">comment from mlahwhy does it have to be "hate male" and not hate mail? Little Freudian Feminist slip working it's way into the language there? Kind of unlike you really. Just a cheap poke for a typo!
Um, it's called blogging at midnight while exhausted. My brain does this when I'm tired. Probably a facet of my brain that allows my facility with puns. I'll correct that. If I'd, say, substituted "due" for "do" or vice versa (as I have on other blog items from time to time), what would you accuse me of...possible hatred of accountants?
Amy Alkon at May 11, 2011 9:20 AM
My gf turned 50 a few weeks back, and we went out to celebrate. She's an attractive woman, made all the more so with a great set of fake boobs, which she likes to show off in slnky tops. I swear, I thought I'd have to beat the men off with a stick! She was honest about her age - and she doesn't look 25 anymore - but none of them seem deterred in the least. We had tons of male company all evening.
So, I'm not sure guys are all that turned off by older women, per se, just that most older women look, act, and dress old. This sends the message that you're no fun, which is undesirable no matter what age you are.
lovelysoul at May 11, 2011 9:26 AM
Well...I did notice something between 45 and 55. The younger women don't really respond to me anymore. I think the same thing happens to women, ages 35 to 45. Men are lucky; we get another 10 years to play the field, roughly speaking.
Then, you have to hope for the best in an older age bracket. This is "intelligent design?" Crap to that.
I married offshore, so I got a young wife. Would not have happened in America.
Do what you gotta do.
BOTU at May 11, 2011 9:50 AM
Women over 40 can be very attractive, but they have to make an effort. So do men that age.
Lisa has pointed out two countries where women make a lot of effort. The men of these countries are also known for being crazy cheaters. So you know why the women work so hard.
In the US, women don't want to make an effort, so they don't age well. You see the same in the UK. It's like the women turn thirty five and suddenly become lesbian gym teachers. I don't know why.
But I think that there is a balance. If women make some effort, they are fine. It's just that they can't sit back and get fat wearing a potato sack and expect men to find them attractive.
Pedro at May 11, 2011 9:58 AM
Lisa, those girls are making more money than I am.
The idea that any of those girls needed to be smuggled in is ludicrous at best.
Lets pretend you're right for a moment though, if aging women were in demand sexually, wouldn't they smuggle THOSE instead?
The feminine fear over sex trafficking is just more of the same crap that was abound in women's crazy heads back in the 1980s when there was all that baseless paranoia over child molestation, satanic killings, stranger danger, and other horse shit that was nonexistant.
And yes I said it, women's heads, I was growing up in the 80s, I remember the talking heads and their various "for the children!" cries that saw so many innocent people prosecuted and sent to prison for crimes that not only did they not commit, but never happened at all. Some of those people are still in prison.
And as for trafficking, I'd have to look it up, but if I remember correctly the total number of people actually found, here in the U.S. by way of example, was around 4,300 cases. Unfortunate yes, but not the innumerable legions that were "estimated" (read: wildly guessed at).
Frankly sometimes it seems to me that to many women can't wait to imagine themselves or other women as utterly helpless victims. It gets very old very fast, especially when the exact opposite is so patently obvious at every turn.
Robert at May 11, 2011 10:09 AM
edit: Should have read crazy women's heads.
Robert at May 11, 2011 10:10 AM
"In the US, women don't want to make an effort, so they don't age well. You see the same in the UK. It's like the women turn thirty five and suddenly become lesbian gym teachers. I don't know why."
There are a lot of women in America who do tend to themselves. Skin care and plastic surgery is huge here, at least among my set of friends.
The thing is, in contrast to places where women simply become more elegant as they age, often when a woman takes care of herself here, you'll have absolutely no idea how old she is.
I was having a facial the other day, and I always thought this woman who was doing it was around 28. She told me she was 51!!! I about fell off the table! Her body - everything - looks 20ish. If a guy met her in a bar, he'd have absolutely no clue.
At my wedding recently, my new huband's aunt told me that she liked me the first time we met, but she thought, "I wish my nephew wouldn't date such young girls!" She had no idea, until the wedding, that I have kids, aged 21 and 17. She thought I was in my late 20s.
I have frequent facials, peels, and zap any age-related tags or spots I can. The technology is there if a woman wants to look younger. It's not cheap, of course, but it's also not unaffordable to women who choose to make it a priority. We all splurge on something. Great skin care, to me, is a worthy investment.
lovelysoul at May 11, 2011 10:29 AM
Read mystery series written by a woman and with a female protagonist. At some point, they all degenerate into the romance novel archetype. The boyfriend is well off financially, wildly successful in his chosen field of endeavor, is a former covert operative, travels extensively with charities for the world's poor or with various intelligence agencies, and is invariably "ruggedly" good-looking. And he sweeps the heroine off her feet repeatedly.
Compare this to mystery series written by a male author with a male protgonist. The girlfriend comes in a wild variety of flavors from low maintenance to high, from calm to neurotic, from divorced or widowed housewife living on alimony to high-powered executive, from prom queen to tomboy.
Former woman? Or woman formerly with issues? Or both?
Conan the Grammarian at May 11, 2011 11:27 AM
You do look fabulous for 47 (I hope to as well, hence my slavish devotion to floppy hats and sunscreen). And I agree with most of what you've said about women and beauty. It make not be what we want it to be, but arguing with millennia of evolutionary wiring is just fruitless.
It's just...disheartening, I suppose, to think that there's an inevitable slide into invisibility lurking around the corner of 30.
Choika at May 11, 2011 11:37 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2011/05/11/why_men_lie_up.html#comment-2126618">comment from ChoikaThanks, Choika. And my grandma on my dad's side was beautiful and elegant and fashionable until she died. She dyed her hair jet black, always wore red lipstick...
Amy Alkon at May 11, 2011 11:45 AM
"Modern feminism is too often about how things "should" be instead of how they are."
But its worse than that. Modern feminism assumes that things will eventually become what they "should" be if only they press their agenda hard enough. They ignore the fact that men will always be more attracted to thin women who take care of themselves, and less attracted to the intelligent, sweetie-pie fatties with no makeup and a bad sense of style. Biology and evolution have made sure of that.
AllenS at May 11, 2011 12:22 PM
"Former woman? Or woman formerly with issues? Or both?" lol. Worded that totally wrong, Grammarian. Should've said I include myself.
"It's just...disheartening, I suppose, to think that there's an inevitable slide into invisibility lurking around the corner of 30."
Noooo...this is just isn't true! It's not inevitable. Especially not right after 30. Gosh, I thought that in my 20s, and I only wish I'd known then how great the 40s would be. I'm thinking the 50s may be even better.
As long as you take care of yourself - take care of your skin, particularly, and keep your body slim and toned - there's no reason anyone should even know you're over 30, much less find you invisible.
Look, men respond to sexy. That tends to get equated with youth only because too many women stop being sexy when they decide they're "too old" for it. As my 50 yr old friend proves, that just isn't necessary. She's got it. She flaunts it. I wish I could show you the bikini shot she just posted on FB, as she's out snorkeling today. I bet you the guys on that boat all have chubbies at this moment. She's anything but invisible. Age is just a limitation if you let it be.
lovelysoul at May 11, 2011 12:31 PM
So if you're 40, don't look at 40-year-old guys, look at 50-year-old ones.
And erm, you can tell a 40-year-old who has had plastic surgery. If you think she looks 28 it's because you're not 28. A 28-year-old can tell that the 40-year-old is not her age peer. And if she says, "Really, I thought you were 30" its because she's being polite.
It's not that they don't look nice, it's that they don't look young. They look lovely, but in a 40-year-old who has had plastic surgery kind of way, not in a 28-year-old way.
I want to look elegant when I am old, not like I am trying to look young. The most beautiful, sophisticated older women I've met may have had a discrete lift or two, but not like they were trying to look a decade younger, just more toned.
The most beautiful older woman I met was at a spa in Germany. I was hanging out with her Russian granddaughter who was a few years younger than me (I forget exactly, I think we were 25 and 19 or so). Her grandmother was accompanying her. She was so elegant, with her neatly tailored clothes, her perfect white chignon, her discrete and yet beautiful jewelery. I imagine she had a bit of work done, but subtle.
On the other hand, there was this 40-something I knew with dyed jet black hair, fake boobs, fake tan, face lifts galore. At first I thought she must be older than she was, because she was trying so hard to look young. But of course when she asked how old she looked I said 30.
But man, that Russian matriarch! God, was she beautiful! She... shone. Does that make sense? It was like she was glowing.
NicoleK at May 11, 2011 12:47 PM
No, honestly, Nicole, this woman looks 28. I've shown her photos to several guys, and they're amazed at how young she looks. They have no reason to lie about that.
She's probably had some work done, but you can't tell. And she is, after all, an aesthetician. She has lots of equipment - stuff to stimulate collagen, zap off skin tags, resurface the skin. You name it.
Some people start early doing that - using sun screen and having regular skin care with great products. I'm grateful that I did this, as it makes a big difference.
But, the bottom line is that there are 25 yr olds sitting at home who can't get dates and 50 yr olds out there having a ball. There's nothing inherently magical about age which creates enjoyment in life or success in relationships.
lovelysoul at May 11, 2011 1:00 PM
Lie about their income? Why? The only income the girls I date care that I have is $200 for one hour and an extra $100 for anal. Obviously these poor souls are not meeting the right sort of girls!
Swiftsure at May 11, 2011 1:35 PM
>> No, honestly, Nicole, this woman looks 28.
Is she Welsh? The Welsh are known for looking weirdly young. I mean 50 year olds looking like 25 year olds and that sort of thing. It sounds crazy, but I've seen it. One side of my family is Welsh and we joke that they're vampires.
peta at May 11, 2011 1:43 PM
hmmm, I thought it was: men lie up so that women will lie down...
SwissArmyD at May 11, 2011 2:53 PM
So if you're 40, don't look at 40-year-old guys, look at 50-year-old ones.
This is probably the best advice. I'm 41, and to be honest, I just don't find many women my age attractive. From what I gather, my experience is very common for men my age. It's not that I think that middle aged women are 'worthless' or even unattractive. But the spark isn't there. It's hard to describe. I imagine that it's similar to what a woman in her twenties feels like towards a man my age. She may think that he's 'handsome' but the sexual attraction isn't there. It feels unnatural. And FWIW I'm not chasing around 25yr olds or anything like that. The women I find attractive tend to be in their early to mid thirties. Men and women just age differently, and like BOTU and Alex Baldwin say, 50 for men is like 32 for women. It's not 'fair' in the cosmic sense, but it's really not that big of a deal. You just need to accommodate it and get on with your life.
jack at May 11, 2011 3:49 PM
Here's what I've observed. A person starts out with a list of qualities they'd like in someone. Then someone strikes their fancy, and the list goes out the window.
@jack, I feel about men my age the same way you feel about women your age. (I'm 42.) If I went out with a 50-year-old man, I'd feel like I was dating my father.
Lori at May 11, 2011 5:52 PM
It isn't the age of a person that makes them attractive, it's their maturity, personality, and charm. After that comes looks. I have been utterly enchanted by someone most of you would probably not have given the time of day, because he was witty, intelligent, attentive, charming. After a while his looks actually Improved in my estmation based on my growing affection. We only ended our relationship when one of us had to move cross-country.
But I digress. I didn't have to "accomodate it and just get on with my life", I married a gorgeous, wonderful man who happens to be my best friend, and 20 years younger than my 47 years.
So, tell me again why I am not "attractive" anymore?
Kat at May 11, 2011 6:15 PM
I'm certainly glad that I'm not in the market and posting on a dating site. I would tell the truth about my age and weight. Then men would add 20 pounds and 10 years to my statistics and I would be doomed. Unfair! It makes it almost necessary to lie to find someone appropriate.
On the other hand, I hear that mature women are in demand. I went to a topless bar with my husband. A dancer came up to us to make conversation. She asked me how old I was. When I replied,"48", she told me that I could make a living as a dancer. She said that the older women made the most money because the older men had the money and they weren't interested in women that looked like their daughters. She told me that she was 38.
Honestly, I was wearing cropped pants and a boat-necked blouse. I am a little overweight in a curvy way. I do look fairly close to my age. Her words shocked me - maybe it was part of the "game" so that I would feel comfortable.
On the other hand, I do get male attention. I think that I exude self-acceptance and confidence. I also really enjoy meeting people and listening to what they say.
Don't write yourself off because of a few wrinkles or even a few pounds. Yup, I am working on both of those. Perhaps they both just serve to make me less intimidating. ha!
Jen at May 11, 2011 7:03 PM
"If you think she looks 28 it's because you're not 28. A 28-year-old can tell that the 40-year-old is not her age peer. And if she says, "Really, I thought you were 30" its because she's being polite"
100% agree with Nicole K. I'm in my late 20's and I can tell. Women in their 50's just don't look like women in their 20's no matter what they say.
My mom is in her 50's and she happens to look very young. She has never had any work done, it just comes from being mixed-race and getting the best attributes of each race She looks like Lucy Lawless with Halle Berrys skin. Trust me my mother has never had a zit or a wrinkle in her life, her skin is perfection and she is naturally a beauty. No makeup, no plastic surgery or anything needed. But still if I didn't know her I wouldn't say she is quite that young.
"I've shown her photos to several guys, and they're amazed at how young she looks"
Photos are VERY deceiving. Just ask anyone on a online dating site.
I for one seriously doubt the contentions of women who say they look young just because of my mother. My mom looks like Lucy Lawless with Halle Berry's skin. That's a really rare mix.
Ppen at May 11, 2011 7:25 PM
"she said that the older women made the most money because the older men had the money and they weren't interested in women that looked like their daughters. "
I call BS. First off an older gal isn't going to tell you how much less she gets paid. If you really wanna do the research In turn ask a 20 year old whether the much older gals are making more.
Ppen at May 11, 2011 7:27 PM
"Photos are VERY deceiving. Just ask anyone on a online dating site."
I agree with that, but I'm a bit annoyed at the people arguing that this woman can't look 28. She does.
These are photos that I snapped with my Iphone, not ones she posted somewhere to be deceiving. We were all posing together, so when I've asked people, including some young guys, to guess the age of the girl on the right, they all come back with late 20s. They are genuinely shocked when I tell them she is actually 51.
And they don't know her, so they're not just being polite.
Now, certainly, if they were hanging out with her, she might give her age away by her actions, dress, or lack of knowledge of some trendy band or something. I'm not saying a 20-something couldn't ultimately tell she is older, but I went out with her the first night we met, and we were in a club at south beach, and I thought she was around 28, and all the young guys hitting on her seemed to think she was around their age too. Certainly no one suspected she was 51.
I find it interesting that some here find this so unlikely that they must challenge it. Of course, there are those people that everyone just says look young to be nice, but there are also those who truly look way younger than they are.
lovelysoul at May 11, 2011 7:52 PM
@Kat - Where did I state that you're not attractive?
Look ladies, I've had to accommodate the fact that most women of the women I meet aren't going to want to be with me for my entire life. They were either too old, or too young, or out of my league, or another race, or whatever. It's just a fact of life for men. I think that one reason that older women find this idea so objectionable is that it's not something that they're accustomed to dealing with. Young women don't tend to recognize what motivates a lot of the attention that they get from men. So when they find their options limited, they think that it's unfair. When in reality, they've simply lost their advantage.
jack at May 11, 2011 8:20 PM
This is probably the best advice. I'm 41, and to be honest, I just don't find many women my age attractive. From what I gather, my experience is very common for men my age
Ok, Jack, I will grant you the "many" as in "not all", but then you go on to state that your "don't find many women my age attractive. " is "very common for men my age".
Being attractive is a skill that is learned, same as any other skill. By observing each other in our early teens, we learn what works,. Flirting should be as natural as breathing. Clothing, grooming, behavior should all be a package we build as we grow, to become the person that we want to be, and to attract the person we want to attract . If your fkirting is forced, or overdone, it's obvious, and off-putting. If you don't groom, or dress nicely, you'll end up with Sasquatch for a prom date.
This goes for men too. If you are still looking, maybe you should find a really close, honest female friend to help you straighten out why.
Kat at May 11, 2011 10:47 PM
I thought I'd jump into all this and self-identify as a man who is attracted to women forty and above to the exclusion of all others. The occasional mid-thirties woman makes an exception, but it's not often.
It's because of the reasons that the ladies on here have mentioned. Being sexy takes practice. While I'm happy to appreciate the rack on that twenty-five year old, she just isn't sexy enough for me.
Yes, this also applies when it comes to my modest porn surfing. I wish there were more porn stars that were older. Hell, maybe I've got myself a fetish. It seems pretty natural to me, though.
I know from talking to friends in my age group (40) that I'm an outlier, but I wanted to lend credence to what lovelysoul, Kat, and others are saying.
whistleDick at May 12, 2011 2:02 AM
Plus, older women have tricks up their sleeve that'll make your dick spin. :)
whistleDick at May 12, 2011 2:03 AM
"The kind of man I'm interested in is going to appreciate a 21-year-old for her 21-year-old hotness but not want one as a partner"
The great philosopher and western thinker (and juggler, by the way) WC Fields once said of young women that they were like elephants - fun to look at, but I wouldn't want to own one.
Jesper at May 12, 2011 5:41 AM
"It's just...disheartening, I suppose, to think that there's an inevitable slide into invisibility lurking around the corner of 30."
Welcome to how today's young men have felt for most of their lives. When I was 20, I couldn't pay a girl to go out with me. And it wasn't that I was playing out of my league (well, not usually). I got turned down by any number of women who could have stood to take some pounds off, and I was pretty damn skinny then. I could stand in front of a woman and she'd look through me like I wasn't even there.
As Amy has pointed out, one thing that women find attractive in a man is status. Well, in terms of gender/age demographics, men in the 20-30 bracket are at the absolute bottom of the status ladder: they are in school or in entry-level positions at their jobs, or else they are struggling to start their own businesses and working 16 hours a day and eating raman noodles. (Or, these days, a lot of them are just unemployed.) By contrast, their female cohort is at the peak of their social status. It's not a fun time.
And I didn't have the disadvantage of being repeatedly told, as a schoolboy, that I was inferior to the girls. Or growing up in an age where the media keeps informing me that society regards me as surplus at best and dangerous at worst.
Cousin Dave at May 12, 2011 10:08 AM
Here's what I've observed. A person starts out with a list of qualities they'd like in someone. Then someone strikes their fancy, and the list goes out the window.
Sure but physical appearance obviously plays a big part for women as well. Women like to deny this, but when you look at couples they're usually pretty close on the 1 to 10 scale. I know plenty of decent stable guys who can't get any play with most women because of their appearance. There's nothing wrong with them outside of the fact that they're not good looking.
Jamal K. at May 12, 2011 7:20 PM
"By contrast, their female cohort is at the peak of their social status. It's not a fun time"
I must admit, despite the fact that I myself am a woman I do find it deliciously awesome that women do get to learn the nasty little lesson that being on top is only temporary and another broad will soon take your place.
"I know plenty of decent stable guys who can't get any play with most women because of their appearance"
Look I've dated ugly men and good looking men and honestly I can say their is noooo difference. What matters is ambition, being a manly man helps alot too. Probably what the guys you are talking about lack is something Amy calls "being the big man on campus". Meaning being the leader in their field and acting with that social confidence. One of my prettiest friends is married to a short guy with acne, but he is the "big man on campus". Makes a ton of money in a field he's terrific in, is the leader among his friends, and is quite confident. For a woman, the only thing lookwise that matters is the man being taller.
Ppen at May 12, 2011 10:15 PM
Probably what the guys you are talking about lack is something Amy calls "being the big man on campus"
Yeah. That's true. They're not alpha type guys.
as for the height thing, I experience that first hand. I'm a little over 5'11 and when I was single used to always get questions from girls on my height, whether I was 6'. There are a lot of women who won't consider being with a guy under 6'. Which is fine, no one should have to force themselves to find somebody attractive. But I have to assume that the height thing for women is more about status then appearance. Because if you have to ask, then you can't tell by just looking at someone.
Jamal K. at May 13, 2011 9:24 AM
I'd divorced in my late 30's and have been dating ever since. Most of the women I've seen have been over thirty five, to mid forties. The things that knock a lot of women out of the running are appearance and attitude. You can't put on 80lbs and expect to get the same attention that you did when you were more fit. And you can't be a neurotic PITA and expect men to find you attractive. I have the impression that some women pick up bad habits in dealing with men when they're younger and don't recognize that they can't get away with them as a grown woman.
The other thing is that many of the women my age that I meet are very very settled. They have certain attitudes and a certain lifestyle and they don't want to deviate from them at all. Which is fine, but it makes it impossible to develop a relationship with them, because everything has to be on their terms.
Juan at May 14, 2011 8:19 AM
"But I have to assume that the height thing for women is more about status then appearance. Because if you have to ask, then you can't tell by just looking at someone."
This frustrates me too. I definitely prefer guys over 6 feet because I'm 5'8 myself and I want a guy that's taller than me, but if you're 5'3 or 5'4 I don't see why it matters! I'm happy to date a man that's five or six inches taller; shouldn't you be too? I know that it's everyone's prerogative to like what they like, but it seems like a petty thing to care about.
Shannon at May 14, 2011 6:28 PM
It is ANYTHING but petty to have a person you're attracted to, with whatever features that entails. One of the most unkind things a person can do is to try to be magnanimous in dating, by dating somebody they think is a wonderful person but who doesn't have whatever it takes to turn them on. Maybe they're too fat, too skinny, too short, too blond. Ultimately, once they're out of the newness phase, they're not really going to want to have sex with the person -- if they ever did. Unless you're simply looking for a BFF, not a sex partner, that's not going to end well.
Amy Alkon at May 14, 2011 6:59 PM
Shannon that's the exact same thing. Anyone over 5'8 is taller than you. LOL.
But I still agree with Amy. You can't force yourself to find someone attractive. The tricky thing that I see with women is that what they find attractive seems to be more socially determined than it is with men. Women will find a man attractive because their friends or social group find him attractive. But if that changes, then she won't any longer. I'd seen this happen when I was younger and for a while it was a thing for women in my area to date black guys. Suddenly many of the white women I knew had black boyfriend, some even married them. Then the black-guy thing went out of fashion and none of them would date a black guy and the ones who married them got divorced. That was an eye opener for me.
I like women, but also recognize that when it comes to romance, men are only along for the ride. Women don't really fall in love with men, they fall in love with the story that they're telling themselves about you. That story has a lot to do with their social circumstances and if those change, there's a good chance that you're through.
Jamal K. at May 15, 2011 7:28 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2011/05/11/why_men_lie_up.html#comment-2139505">comment from Jamal K.The tricky thing that I see with women is that what they find attractive seems to be more socially determined than it is with men.
Sorry, but women's preferences are mainly that a man is tall and symmetrical and numerous studies that have measured female preferences around the globe bear that out.
You're taking events and attributing causality to them with no proof that you're at all correct.
You also make wild and unsupported generalizations about women, like "Women don't really fall in love with men, they fall in love with the story that they're telling themselves about you."
Amy Alkon at May 15, 2011 7:34 AM
I was single used to always get questions from girls on my height, whether I was 6'
You know how to answer that right?
"No, sorry I'm just under one foot, oh, you meant my height? Yes I'm 6' "
If your within a half inch just say yes
lujlp at May 15, 2011 8:25 AM
"The tricky thing that I see with women is that what they find attractive seems to be more socially determined than it is with men."
Well Amy's right. That's just ridiculous.
"Then the black-guy thing went out of fashion and none of them would date a black guy and the ones who married them got divorced"
So white women only dated black men because it was fashionable at the time. Right. Got it.
"Then the black-guy thing went out of fashion and none of them would date a black guy and the ones who married them got divorced"
So again it became unfashionable to date black men which lead to divorce. Got it. Makes sense, women only date to be fashionable. We are so obsessed with fashion that it determines who we are attracted to. Because we all know that who you are attracted to is based on what other women think.
But perhaps the explanation is that women are independently attracted to one thing which coincides with the thoughts of other women. For example women 1 is attracted to tall guys and women 2 is attracted to tall guys and they are both attracted to the same thing inherently and it just happens to be the same thing other women are attracted to not because of social cues but because of our years of evolution and brain wiring. Understand? Just like men don't find young fertile women attractive because other men find such women attractive. They find young fertile women attractive independently of what other men think due to years of evolution.
Ppen at May 15, 2011 11:42 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2011/05/11/why_men_lie_up.html#comment-2140742">comment from PpenThank you, Ppen! I worked really late and it was so nice to see this.
Amy Alkon at May 16, 2011 12:00 AM
You two are twisting what I'd written. If women's preferences are more influenced by social factors than mens, that doesn't mean that they're entirely determined by social factors. It simply means that these present a greater influence on their preferences. How is it that you can agree that women are influenced by a man's social status, but then deny that they are influenced by social factors? Status itself arises from social factors and reflects them. The term is meaningless, for this purpose, without reference to a social context. Seeing that Amy is familiar w/ the research in this area, she should be aware that it's been demonstrated that status cues influence women's perception of physical attractiveness in men. For instance, when men are depicted in the context of fancy cars, wearing expensive suits, and such they're regarded as more physically attractive than when these status elements are not present.
Also Amy, 'symmetry' for the purpose of these sorts of studies is basically a proxy for physical beauty. It's a way of reducing the racial and ethnic variation in physical traits to a geometric measure. It's also applied as a term of art. Because by 'symmetry', what the researchers typically mean is left / right symmetry of normally distributed features in a front facing orientation. Not full geometric multi-axis symmetry. A fully symmetrical person would be shaped like a sphere. A cyclops has excellent symmetry in the face, but their features aren't normally distributed. By normal, I mean gaussian normal.
If you actually look at how these studies are designed, they typically use images of a person's face, or models from the waist or chest up. The subjects are focussing on facial features. So when the research is said to reveal that people prefer symmetry, what that means is facial symmetry with a normal spacial and scale distribution of facial features. It doesn't mean that people are going around measuring the relative lengths of each others arms. You keep arguing that women don't care about a man's appearance because they prefer symmetry, but that's exactly what 'symmetry' represents in this research. Men prefer symmetry as well. So how is it that men's preference for symmetry means physically attractive facial features, but women's does not?
Jamal K. at May 16, 2011 11:41 AM
Leave a comment