A Wise Take On Porn Use
Smart piece on men and women and conflicts over porn use by Dr. Marty Klein on PsychologyToday.com -- "Porn Addict or Selfish Bastard? Life Is More Complicated Than That." An excerpt:
I'm seeing an epidemic of "porn addiction" in my office. Not of porn addiction, but of "porn addiction."Here's how it looks: Wife/girlfriend somehow assumes that husband/boyfriend does NOT watch porn (guess that's what she means by "he's one in a million"). One day, his porn watching comes to her attention (he leaves something on the screen, she searches his website history, he gets an email or bill from some friendly porn site, etc.).
She freaks.
She decides what his porn watching "means":
* He doesn't care for her
* He's been faking sexual desire or enjoyment
* He'd rather be with other women (or men, or kangaroos, or whatever he's been watching)
* He's a pervert
* He's unfaithfulNeedless to say, these interpretations make his porn watching her business. And frequently, she decides she has the moral high ground from which to dictate what his problem is, the fact that he must get it fixed, and what the treatment needs to be. With slight variations, a new version of this case walks into my office almost every week.
In a different world, Mr. Porn Consumer would turn to Outraged Wife/Girlfriend and say "Wow, I can see that you're really upset about what I'm watching. Let's talk about it and see what we can do." In the real world, however, most men are so loaded down with shame about their sexuality that the second their partner attacks them for watching porn, they collapse and allow their partner to seize control of the relationship.
She then drags him into my office so I can fix the poor guy. I'm supposed to turn him into a non-perverted, non-selfish, non-hiding, aroused-by-her-and-only-her ex-porn consumer.
Here's an excerpt from a recent column of mine on porn, Triumph Of The Willie:
It's hard to have a rational conversation about porn because people's first reaction is so often knee-jerk hysteria. I got a lot of that in response to this particular column; for example, as one guy wrote, "Porn focuses on body parts, not on sex. This is how bestiality develops." Yes, we see that all the time: One week, a guy's surfing the net for busty blondes; the next, he's got the hots for the neighbor's Labradoodle....Sure, porn can pose problems in a marriage or relationship -- when used to excess. The same goes for golf clubs, credit cards, and Hostess Ding Dongs. Of course, when there are problems, people love to blame the thing being used instead of the person doing the using. This thinking is fed by the damaging contention that addiction is "a disease." Multiple sclerosis is a disease. You can't decide to not have multiple sclerosis. You can decide to stop engaging in some behavior. You might not want to stop, it might be terribly hard to stop, but if the stakes are high enough, you will. Just ask some guy who tells you he can't stop looking at porn. Sorry, but if his house catches fire, he's not going to sit there at the computer simultaneously getting off and getting crispy.
The hysteria about porn is reminiscent of the hysteria surrounding pot from early on, ever since the propaganda classic "Reefer Madness" depicted it as a demon weed that causes rape, murder, suicide, crazed piano playing, and hit-and-run driving. Of course, if you know any potheads, you know the stuff is far more likely to cause them to lie on a beanbag chair polishing off the collected works of Sara Lee. Similarly, shrill ravings about porn keep the facts about it from being heard, keeping people from being able to differentiate between porn as a problem and porn as a pastime.
This woman's husband hadn't stopped showering, going to work, or having sex with her to lock himself in a room with the naked sex workers of the World Wide Web. In fact, she described him as a sweet, loving, "deeply caring" man who only watches porn when she's out and he's bored. The actual problem in her marriage was her unfounded fears about his porn consumption -- which led to her feeling resentful and shutting down between the sheets. This sort of sex and affection strike can compel even a man who wants to be faithful to expand his horizons from sightseeing in the virtual world to getting naked with co-workers and rent-a-booty in the real one. So, as I advised this woman, no man "only has eyes for you," but if you'd like keep the rest of your husband's body parts from wandering, you should see to it that your bedroom isn't the one place in the world that he can't get sex.
This column I wrote was the precursor.
Great line:
"Of course, if you know any potheads, you know the stuff is far more likely to cause them to lie on a beanbag chair polishing off the collected works of Sara Lee."
I had a roommate years ago who had a about 2 dozen Playboy magazines. He threw them out when his girlfriend moved in. Wasn't even porn, wasn't her complaining, it was his idea.
Weird. They sat on a table in the living room. It wasn't like he was hiding them before she moved in.
Terry Gibbs at May 12, 2011 12:37 AM
I once told a boyfriend he should buy porn because to be honest, most men use the free stuff and are those women really getting paid? It's kind of sad.
Non-economically, I read several blogs on the matter from two sides
http://sexademic.wordpress.com/
and the Robinson's http://www.huffingtonpost.com/marnia-robinson/what-porn-users-taught-me_b_298699.html
Honestly, it's hard for me to know what to feel about this. I don't like the idea of men compartmentalizing their sex lives into this secret habit, so I've always tried to be open about it. Problems for me have been the one boyfriend who had severe ED because of he was really banging on his wang while watching porn and another who asked for more and more painful sexual antics he had seen in porn.
I've used porn myself and decided to stop because I felt that like him I needed more and more absurd/brutal scenes to turn me on and was becoming desensitized to normal sex. My relationships and sex life are much better since then.
Kate at May 12, 2011 5:54 AM
Is this a California thing? It reads like science fiction to me.
MarkD at May 12, 2011 6:05 AM
Women are typically incredible hypocrites when it comes to sexuality. They start from the idea that male sexuality is wrong and female sexuality is pure and wholesome. Then they claim that men make them feel shame, while attempting to shame men into feeling and behaving the same way that they do. You can see the same attitude in that recent post here on older women. It's pure hypocrisy.
thumper at May 12, 2011 7:19 AM
As long as I don't have to watch/read it or stumble upon it when I use the computer, he can do what he wants to.
Kendra at May 12, 2011 7:45 AM
"I've used porn myself and decided to stop because I felt that like him I needed more and more absurd/brutal scenes to turn me on and was becoming desensitized to normal sex. My relationships and sex life are much better since then."
That's really the key. It's not that porn on occassion is bad, but there are so many relationships that are not as good as they could be because of it.
People tell themselves that it's a harmless little pastime, but for many, it becomes excessive, just like drug use does, as the need for an ever bigger "high" or level of excitement increases.
In my experience, there are very few purely recreational porn users, only those who tell themselves they (or their spouse) are.
Anything that takes you away from your partner - directs energy away from the relationship - has the potential to negatively impact that relationship.
I've never asked my husband not to look at porn. He has a subscription to Playboy, which sits in the bathroom, and a couple of pretty tame videos on his shelf, gathering dust. But he doesn't lock himself in the computer room and whack off, like me ex did almost nightly (even while getting sex almost nightly from me too).
I aplogize for being crude, but I was just thinking about this the other day, and how hard my man always is (though pushing 50), and how much cum he has when we make love. And I truly believe that it's partly because he doesn't "waste" it elsewhere.
Would it be the same if he was in that room whacking off on a regular basis? As someone who has lived with a man who did that, I don't think so. My ex was always ready for sex, but his compulsive need for jacking off made both his sexual performance and orgasms less impressive.
My message: Try to save it for your woman, guys. At least if you have a woman to save it for.
lovelysoul at May 12, 2011 7:51 AM
Oh, please. Because a few people cannot seperate fantasy from reality, the majority should be banned from fantasy?
My husband is an anime fan. One of the staples of anime is the cute little school girl in the barely-there skirt. Should I worry that that means he is a pedophile? There are also efeminate heros killing demons, aliens and gods know what else, should I also hide under the bed because they might get me?
Frelling idiots. Porn is the spice to keep the real thing from going stale.
Kat at May 12, 2011 10:13 AM
on an unrelated note, Kat just outed herself as a 'Scaper... ain't nobody else uses the word "Frelling" :devil: how nice.
So LS, do you think your experiences were outliers, or normal? Do you realize that you fit the mold of the person who decides what somebody elses sexuality should be? "Anything that takes you away from your partner - directs energy away from the relationship - has the potential to negatively impact that relationship." LS
How do people who believe that share their partner in any way with anyone else? I don't mean in bed, I mean in everyday life. We are whole beings, not slaves to each other. The first negative impact on the relationship is to demand that a partner never notice anyone else.
Now smarter guys usually realize that their woman will go ballistic if she ever even thinks he has fantasies for another woman, so he hides it. One thing that turns a woman on is that he desire her... and she figures if he's looking at an image on the 'net, he must no longer desire her. There are other ways of figuring out if that desire is there, but she has to accept it.
So, do you want to be lied to, or do you want to accept a man as he is?
SwissArmyD at May 12, 2011 11:01 AM
So, do you want to be lied to, or do you want to accept a man as he is?
There's a middle ground here. My husband has a porn collection. I don't know anything about it or even where he keeps it (probably on his hard drive). That is part of his private life, and I don't want to know anything about it. On the flip side, I don't feel the need to reveal my own fantasies.
With my first husband, he wasn't having sex with me because he was masturbating to porn so much. That WAS my problem, so I felt a right to get involved.
MonicaP at May 12, 2011 11:24 AM
Men like recreational sex. Women like recreational shopping.
Oh, I could whine about buying unnecessary shoes, belts, girlie-cosmetics etc., and that voracious consumption is bad for the planet, and why the $700 hairdo (extensions) when people are starving etc.
American women love nothing better than to get in the role of judging men.
Men need to be more honest. We like naked women, and we are polygamous. Duh.
BOTU at May 12, 2011 11:26 AM
As with any spice, too much is a problem, just enough is not. Do we have the right to tell our mates "Thou shalt not LOOK!" ? Hell no. Just as they better not tell us not to shop, or have lunch with our girlfriends, or anything else. You start dictating, and you've lost the right to ask. Period.
ls, I am sorry you had an asswipe for your first husband. His behavior was abominable, and does, in every way, deserve to be punished by horsewhipping in a public square followed by hanging him by his balls. HE made the choice to be a lecherous, unscrupulous, unfaithful asshole. Not the porn. His video tape collection did not take his little hand and say "Come on! It'll be fun!" it was the other way around, and you have over reacted. I'm glad you are happy now, just remember it is people who make choices.
And yes, blue chicks in living space ships is indeed one of my favorite vices ^.^
Kat at May 12, 2011 11:34 AM
Nobody needs to lie to me. I realize that men fantasize about other women, and women fantasize about other men too. I'm not trying to tell anyone how to live, just sharing thoughts about how to best maximize your sex life with your partner.
For instance, I like to masturbate and fantasize, but, like Kate above, I began to realize that doing that too often impacted my sex life. If I brought out "the Rabbit" every afternoon and pleasured myself before my husband came home, I wouldn't be as horny and excited to have sex with him later. Simple fact.
Now, if you can do that and still be hot for your partner, there's no problem. I have no objection to anyone using porn or anime or whatever to genuinely spice up their sex lives with their partner.
Where I think it goes wrong is when it becomes a distraction/detraction from the real thing. And I believe too many people lie to themselves and their partners that porn is an "enhancement" when it's really not. Often, people use porn (or food, internet, kids, or other distractions) to avoid confronting issues in their relationship and making the real effort to deepen their sexual/emotional connection.
And, as men age, testerone levels decrease, so porn use can become a conservation issue, for lack of a better term. An older guy just has so much sexual energy. He can't have 2 or 3 "performances" a day anymore - or at least GOOD performances.
Believe me, we know too. We may not say anything, but if we're getting the softer end of the stick, we realize that some of that energy/passion is being directed elsewhere.
And that may be our fault. Maybe we're not exciting you enough, or we've let ourselves go, or become distracted ourselves with kids, work, or friends...or "The Rabbit" (believe me, women can get addicted to masturbation too!).
But this is when a couple really needs to address issues that impede intimacy, not run away from them by locking the door and jacking off. That's the easy way out, and too many people take it. But it only hurts your sex life and relationship in the long run.
lovelysoul at May 12, 2011 11:54 AM
Kat reminded me of a girl I knew. She dumped a guy she was dating because he liked anime and she thought the cartoon girls were degrading to women. I remember her telling me that she bitched him out for his porn collection too. Too bad he didn't have the backbone to dump her first.
Kendra at May 12, 2011 12:03 PM
What I'm cautioning against basically is overreliance on this kind of stimulation.
It's like how some very young guys are now taking vaigra. They don't NEED it, but they think it's cool. But I'm hearing from some of my guy friends that this can result in a dependency. Pretty soon they're reliant on the pill to perform.
We are a culture addicted to stimulants, and porn is a stimulant. If you can honestly use it without becoming dependent, or having it negatively impact your real sex life, then it's fine. But when it starts to be what you need to do in order to be with your partner - or worse, what you'd RATHER do than be with your partner - it's a problem.
And, like I said, this isn't just a guy thing. Women masturbate too, often more than you'd think. Or we escape into romance novels, soaps, and other fantasies...sometimes while masturbating...and then, surprise, we're just not as turned on by YOU anymore.
Some of you guys who aren't getting laid and think your wives are asexual may be surprised to know they're pleasuring themselves instead. How fair is that to you?
Any time you're turning away, rather than looking for ways to be closer to your partner, the relationship ultimately suffers.
lovelysoul at May 12, 2011 12:24 PM
Too bad he didn't have the backbone to dump her first.
Kendra, this made me chuckle, thanks!
Kat at May 12, 2011 12:36 PM
My husband does not watch porn. I know some people will respond about how he does it when I'm not around or whatever, but he says he doesn't and I believe him. We've had that wonderful conversation long ago and as pointed out here, I came to the conclusion that it wasn't worth me fighting over. He was/is a faithful husband, and looking online was nothing to be threatened by. He watched porn long after that talk.
The only complaint I had was that if I'm home, and available (kids are asleep and whatnot), he'd give me the opportunity to fulfill his sexual desires - even if it is a "quickie". That didn't stop the porn, nor did it intend to stop the porn, but I can't say my feelings weren't hurt when he would choose porn OVER me. After a little while, he just stopped watching it. I can't say that it doesn't bring me the tiniest bit of joy. However, I wouldn't be upset or disappointed if he did start watching it again.
NikkiG at May 12, 2011 12:59 PM
I have a side question... are we not conflating pr0n with getting off? spcice as Kat put it... It isn't food. It makes the food better. It isn't a substitute for it. Watching or reading something that get 'ya all hot an bothered makes you want you partner, doesn't it?
If they do themselves, that's an ENTIRELY different issue. I think sometimes the pr0n and pleasure are assumed to be the same, esp. for men because of our visual nature. But it's what you do with it. I guess I'm restating Kat's point in that respect.
I've just noticed that most women view the pr0n and the whack-a-mole as the same thing. In many cases they are, but one doesn't cause the other.
SwissArmyD at May 12, 2011 1:06 PM
I was thinking along the same lines, Swiss. It's quite different using porn, or romance novels, or anything else to get aroused, then sharing that arousal with your partner. It's a whole other thing to see it all the way through alone.
Yet, how many men watch porn and don't get off? Just curious.
I suspect it's more common for women to engage in foreplay-type arousal then save the orgasm for their man. I know I used to get very turned on by fantasies, or romance novels, then come all hot and bothered to my partner.
But is that really fair either? I'm sure my partner thought that he was driving me wild - or doing something especially great based on my responses - when I was really imaging having sex in some castle tower with a count. Not even there with him mentally.
I suppose what your partner doesn't know doesn't hurt them, and it's probably ok every once in awhile, but it's so much better if you can be present with your partner and fully aroused by them.
lovelysoul at May 12, 2011 1:23 PM
Mostly off topic but since we're talking about romance novels too, I have to present the hilarity that is Knight Moves. It's the Plan 9 of romance novels.
http://dearauthor.com/book-reviews/review-knight-moves-by-jamaica-layne/
Elle at May 12, 2011 1:40 PM
Too funny, Elle. That's got to be one of the worst ever written.
lovelysoul at May 12, 2011 1:55 PM
So LS, do you think your experiences were outliers, or normal? Do you realize that you fit the mold of the person who decides what somebody elses sexuality should be?
You don't have to decide anyone's sexuality if you are able to chose mates from the outset that fit your needs. Unfortunately because men are ashamed of porn, they often hide its use and you don't really know about it until it becomes a problem (if it does). People should be open about their fetishes/desires/needs/etc. from the outset.
Men like recreational sex. Women like recreational shopping.
I'm a woman and I like both, though for the sake of my relationship I do neither. Is that my boyfriend "deciding" my sexuality?
Kate at May 12, 2011 2:07 PM
Kate, I don't think men are ashamed of porn at all, but they realize that there are women out there who will not accept their interest in it. Couple that with not knowing if their partner will or wont accept the interest until it's too late...
you have to hide it.
you can be made to pay... as Klein says:
"Needless to say, these interpretations make his porn watching her business. And frequently, she decides she has the moral high ground from which to dictate what his problem is, the fact that he must get it fixed, and what the treatment needs to be. With slight variations, a new version of this case walks into my office almost every week."
SwissArmyD at May 12, 2011 2:49 PM
ETA: Shame would indicate that they are doing something that they feel or know is wrong. But in this case, it is entirely someone elses definition of wrong, which they obviously don't agree with.
SwissArmyD at May 12, 2011 2:56 PM
"Kate, I don't think men are ashamed of porn at all, but they realize that there are women out there who will not accept their interest in it. Couple that with not knowing if their partner will or wont accept the interest until it's too late..."
But why would a guy get married not knowing that? I mean, if he has a porn habit, wouldn't that be kind of a fundamental thing to know about his future wife before saying "I do"?
As evidenced by posters here, there are also many women who like porn, or take a laissez fare attitude about it. Wouldn't it be MUCH easier to find a woman like that rather than hide it?
If you were a smoker, wouldn't you want to tell your future spouse - or better yet, find a kindred smoker to be with, or at least someone who doesn't mind - instead of sneaking out back to smoke?
And, if you choose to be sneaky rather than honest isn't the outcome really your responsibility? Why is the woman to blame for discovering something that she should've been made aware of in the first place?
What Kate is saying is that the woman should be given the choice. She may not care, but it also could be that this will be a dealbreaker for her.
I wouldn't have stopped dating my (now) husband if he'd been more into porn. I'm glad he isn't, but if he'd had a typical appetite for it, I would've accepted that...because I actually EXPECTED that.
But if he'd had certain fetishes, it would've been a dealbreaker for me. Been there/done that. Not interested. And, believe me, I asked those questions...in many different ways...over the course of the 3 yrs we dated.
People should know who they marry, and make sure that person knows them. If you're being deceitful, it's the wrong grounds to start out.
lovelysoul at May 12, 2011 3:13 PM
Ok, may I state this in a different way?
Can we agree that men are very visual where sexual attraction/arousal is concerned?
How many of you have sex each and every time with the lights on, ceiling mirrors/walls etc? Do you dance for him? Do anything at all to give him those internal "stock footage" thrills that he can save up and replay?
Now. How about your man? How good is his imagination? Can he create his internal movie from a night, in the dark, doing it missionary?
Yeah, that is what I thought.
That's what porn is for.
Kat at May 12, 2011 4:33 PM
Kate, I don't think men are ashamed of porn at all, but they realize that there are women out there who will not accept their interest in it. Couple that with not knowing if their partner will or wont accept the interest until it's too late...
Um, how about looking for a more sexually open partner instead of tricking someone into a relationship with you under false pretenses? Men who like porn, why risk it? She'll find out and maybe she'll be crazy about it.
Sexual openness at the beginning of a relationship will save you time and heartache. It's not just porn we are talking about either. For example, if a guy wants anal, he should look for a woman who likes that (some of my girlfriends orgasm from anal or at least claim to) and not try to date someone unwilling and hope they'll cave later. Same for girls- there are guys who won't go down on gals. If you are a gal who loves that and wants that regularly, it's good to rule those men out. It's about sexual compatibility.
Kate at May 12, 2011 4:50 PM
Oh heavens.
Guys, there's another reason for this I don't see here yet.
A picture or movie character doesn't smell bad at any time, complain, or have a history unpleasant to think about (even subconsciously).
Sometimes I even think the guys looking at pictures of "tweens" are just wishing they could get a do over, to be young again and pick the right girlfriend this time.
If you're really doing the right things, your guy will really spend a half-hour just brushing your hair. Well, you might not have a guy you can get to obsess on you - you might not even want him to. But it can happen.
Radwaste at May 12, 2011 5:17 PM
"Can we agree that men are very visual where sexual attraction/arousal is concerned?"
Of course. But so are women, despite all the studies supposedly suggesting otherwise. Will women trade off their visual pleasure for financial security? Absolutely. But will they still lust after the cut guy with the great abs and tight butt doing their lawn? Yes. Women are visual too. We just prioritize looks differently. Sexual satisfaction is lower on the list.
"How many of you have sex each and every time with the lights on, ceiling mirrors/walls etc? Do you dance for him? Do anything at all to give him those internal "stock footage" thrills that he can save up and replay?"
I do. I even took belly dancing lessons recently. Pole dancing is next. But, granted, it's because I look great and feel comfortable with my sexuality, as I suspect you do, Kat.
It's a shame, but most women feel very inhibited thinking they're being compared to real strippers, belly dancers, and porn stars. And, therein, lies the vicious cycle of this.
In my experience, most men don't think like that. They are happy to see their partner naked in the raw light, especially if she's having sex with them. But, we women are the ones comparing ourselves and feeling insecure. Especially if our guy seems to prefer a virtual partner to a real one.
lovelysoul at May 12, 2011 7:12 PM
"If you're really doing the right things, your guy will really spend a half-hour just brushing your hair. Well, you might not have a guy you can get to obsess on you - you might not even want him to. But it can happen."
This is so true. Women repeatedly underestimate the power of good sex. Guys are pretty simple. Women try to make them more complex, but the reality is that if a guy is getting laid well and often, he'll do just about anything for you.
lovelysoul at May 12, 2011 7:18 PM
"instead of tricking someone into a relationship with you under false pretenses? Men who like porn, why risk it?" Kat.
find me a man who doesn't like pr0n. remember how they have a hard time studying this because they can't find guys who don't view it to use as a control? There is no false pretense when very close to all men like it. This is just the way men are.
Maybe we are using too broad a scope? Dunno, I know there are prolly guys who don't view it all the time... until my ex started to withold, I didn't bother when I was married, because the images in my head were her...
which leads us to LS's comment about guys being simple... um, yeah, so what does it actually mean when a woman starts to withold, or is never interested? A whole 'nother question I know.
SwissArmyD at May 12, 2011 7:47 PM
"which leads us to LS's comment about guys being simple... um, yeah, so what does it actually mean when a woman starts to withold, or is never interested? A whole 'nother question I know."
I'd say porn use is totally justifiable in that case, but I'd also wonder why she is suddenly witholding. Is it menopause related? Or has something happened in the relationship that could possibly be fixed?
And, as for studies on this subject, they're practically worthless. What guy is going to say he doesn't "like" porn? It's the same as asking women how many "like" money. Uh, 100%! The pertinent question is how much this "like" plays into their day to day, year to year decisions. For some, that is a lot. For many others it's minimal.
Almost all guys will look at porn to some degree. My man has his "Playboys" in the bathroom, so, in a study, it might be said he "looks at porn every day", which would lump him in with guys who are jerking off several times a day to internet porn, even though that's not the same degree.
lovelysoul at May 12, 2011 7:58 PM
find me a man who doesn't like pr0n. remember how they have a hard time studying this because they can't find guys who don't view it to use as a control? There is no false pretense when very close to all men like it. This is just the way men are. -SwissArmy D
Geez, the way some men talk it's like men would never survive without porn. Liking porn is not the same is using porn anyway. I like Reeses cups, I don't eat them because I don't want to be a fat person. And I have known men who didn't use porn and I lived in extremely close quarters with them and we didn't have the internet. The people doing the study didn't look hard enough. I guess I"m suppressing my desire to look hot for my boyfriend. OH THE HORRORS. I will probably explode any day.
Almost all guys will look at porn to some degree. My man has his "Playboys" in the bathroom, so, in a study, it might be said he "looks at porn every day", which would lump him in with guys who are jerking off several times a day to internet porn, even though that's not the same degree.- Lovelysoul
Yeah, I'm sure some of these men had a playboy or two or enjoy an episode of Pirates now and then, to the guys that are literally addicted to it to the point of strangling their penises. I can't believe I've dated two of these sort of guys.
Some of the problem is that people really are afraid to ask for stuff in relationships. Dudes tolerate their wives withholding sex because they don't want to "decide anyone's sexuality." I think it's time we actually have some expectations in relationships about satisfying each other.
BTW I've watched porn with boyfriends and enjoyed that. It has given us fun ideas (though now I realize that the reason most women don't watch porn is most of it simply isn't made for the way women are wired). It's different than feeling sexually depleted because you have masturbated 4 times in one day.
Kate at May 12, 2011 8:43 PM
FWIW, the questions aren't about liking pr0n, but trying to find someone who doesn't or hasn't viewed it...
but when you go back to the original article;
"Here's how it looks: Wife/girlfriend somehow assumes that husband/boyfriend does NOT watch porn (guess that's what she means by "he's one in a million"). One day, his porn watching comes to her attention (he leaves something on the screen, she searches his website history, he gets an email or bill from some friendly porn site, etc.).
She freaks."
This is ANY. She didn't find him boppin-the-bishop, much less having magazines in the bathroom.
That's the thing. Sure we can talk about it on a continuum, but I'd hazard a guess that most women won't accept any. Certainly every girlfriend I ever had trashed anything they found, including some very expensive photography, secure on their moral highground that it was "objectification".
This has certainly been the case for every guy I've ever know, where any such question came up.
"she moves in and rearranges your livingroom, and trashes all your pr0no..." I thought it was amusing, until it happened to me. I don't think it's a generational thing either... I'm in my late 40's but many of my much younger friends in their late 20's have mentioned it.
:shrug:
Also? the witholding wasn't sudden... it was a gradual lengethening of time between intamacy that a lot of people find in marriage. When a person says they don't want to talk about it everytime you bring it up, and eventually you drag them to a marriage counselor, and the [female]counselor doesn't think it;s a problem either, you know it's over. It is just one datapoint, so I dun know what it's worth. It wasn't menopause though.
SwissArmyD at May 12, 2011 8:44 PM
LS I've got to agree w/ Kate here. From everything I've read from you about your ex, he's a narcissistic asshole and a pervert. You seem like a nice lady, but you've got to stop extrapolating your ex's behavior to other men.
I like 'porn' that most people would regard as very vanilla. I've never moved onto the hard stuff, it depresses me. The crazy angry shit with choking and gagging and all that is sick to me. But I don't 'use' porn when I'm in a relationship and I'm happy. The thing is, a lot of the women I've dated will start off strong and then develop 'issues' after a while where they don't want to have sex, or start putting all sort of conditions on having sex. Eventually they just don't want to have sex unless they're in the perfect mood, and even then the slightest thing will ruin it. I think that, in reality, most women see sex and a means to an end. Once they get what they want, the sex stops. That's just the way that women are, so guys use porn to relieve the desire to have sex. What are we supposed to do?
JJ at May 12, 2011 10:29 PM
"Of course, if you know any potheads, you know the stuff is far more likely to cause them to lie on a beanbag chair polishing off the collected works of Sara Lee."
"Nobody does it like Sara Lee!"
Would it be weird to call my "pulse pistol" Wynonna? :)
I remember seeing some infomercial about porn addiction with a married couple. After acting contrite hubby explains how he got "addicted" just after his wife had a baby. How strange...
Sio at May 12, 2011 10:46 PM
Not getting married is the only know cure for porn addiction.
unmarriageable at May 12, 2011 10:50 PM
"Would it be weird to call my "pulse pistol" Wynonna? :)" Sio.
:fallsoverlaughing: y'know that is a very amusing line in the context of this particular discussion...
SwissArmyD at May 12, 2011 11:40 PM
I’ve had alot of experience with the men in my life, boyfriends, and porn. I’ve personally experienced that most men don’t want me to be me in the bedroom. Sure, they want me to moan and have fun and “let go”, be wild, even orgasm; but they don’t want me to get there by really being me. By just being a “normal girl”. They don’t want me and my sexuality. They want porn sexuality, where I mimic the fantasies they enjoy through porn. Where I act more like, dress up and respond like the girl’s they’ve been watching in porn since the tender age of 11. And I’ve done that. I’ve done things I didn’t really want to do because the guys I cared about wanted it, because it was so “normal” to them. I just want to be me. But that’s not want excites most men I’ve known. They can’t be excited by regular girls anymore doing *normal* things.
I try to always pose this situation to men. Think of a polar universe. Where porn is flipped around. It’s not filled with the standard stereotypes we can all make about women in it. Gone are busty young women playing submissively and catering to male sexual desires. Instead this porn is filled with standard stereotypes about men. This porn is filled with the worse and most debasing things a woman could want to use a man for.
In this polar universe, porn instead is comprised of attractive, hard bodied men. In this world, it’s your wives and daughters that want to stoop the “teenage” school boy. It’s your wives that want to stoop the male babysitter you and her hired to watch your children. In this porn it’s your wives and girlfriends that get off to men being called all levels and kinds of names that diminish your masculinity. While the men in these movies act like they love it. These men have good looks and are rich. In these movies that women so enjoy, these men are used, not necessarily for just sex (because that’s a male fantasy) but they are used for their money. Women take advantage of them, use their money, use these men for their money, the bigger and more money the man has, the more and better enjoyment a woman gets from using him. And the man in this movie LOVES being used for his money. He smiles, he panders to it, he acts like being used for his money is the only thing he ever lived for. And when she tapped him of all his resources? She kicks him out. She gets another man to fill his place, she tosses him aside for another man. Slowly going through man after man, using them up and tossing them out when they no longer fulfill her desire for money.
You might think this sounds silly. It’s not. That’s the industry of porn we have currently towards women. Where women are used for sex, then tossed aside for the next girl and the women act like they just LOVE being abused sexually for the pleasure of a man because women deserve to be called names, smacked, choked right? If women sincerely had an industry that treated men like porn treats women, men would be being used for their money, kicked to the curb, called names, and the men in these movies would all act like there was nothing else they lived for but to give women money.
How many fathers would want their daughters enjoying that industry? How many husbands would trust the respect she had for him if she enjoyed these images? I don’t think many would. But so many men enjoy, defend and encourage porn. I see many men spend more time defending pornography, sticking up for pornography then I see them stick up for the real normal boring, not as blindingly sexually obvious women in their real life. Their wives. Their girlfriends. Their daughters. Their mothers. Too many men act like white knights for porn, too many men side with porn. Over the actual woman in their lives.
And really, it’s only getting worse. it’s no longer the monthly Playboy coming in the mail. We have young boys and girls growing up on hardcore porn. And I don’t think most parents are exactly having the conversations they need to tell their sons that this isn’t the way to treat a girl. Or telling their daughters that they don’t have to look or act like that to be beautiful sexual women. Why would most parents tell their kids that when their parents WANT their own partners to act like the movies anyway.
There is very little in porn that’s sincerely about expressing a shared and sexual human experience.
Erin at May 13, 2011 1:42 AM
Erin either you're exaggerating or have made bad choices.
titsky at May 13, 2011 3:24 AM
"This is ANY. She didn't find him boppin-the-bishop, much less having magazines in the bathroom."
I highly doubt these women are dragging their partners to a therapist for a couple of Playboys. This is likely a degree of porn use where it is affecting the relationship or finances. He says they receive a bill or view internet history. How many bills and how many sites we don't know.
There are men with serious addictions out there. I'm not trying to "extrapolate my ex's behavior" to apply it to other men, but this article legitimately brings up my ex. This is the kind of guy who ends up in therapy for porn addiction...not the guy with a few Playboys.
Finding a bill or two may seem like nothing, but if a family is strapped financially, discovering your spouse is squandering what little resources you have by calling 900 numbers is something.
My ex never paid for porn. There is plenty free on the internet, so if someone starts paying for it regularly, it could certainly suggest an escalating level of usage.
Finding a screen open to porn may seem like no big deal...unless you have kids in the house. My daughter found her dad's porn on our (communal) computer. Now, that signifies a problem worthy of therapy. If you're so desperate to jerk off you can't think of who else might see it, especially your child. He was always pretty good about hiding his history, but it only takes one moment of forgetting.
I know there are many men who have more normal appetites for porn, and some don't use it at all when they're in a relationship. But it would be remiss not to discuss those who are seriously obsesseed with it and the problems this can cause in a marriage and family.
Maybe some of these women overracted, but therapy is a last resort for most. My guess is that these are typically cases of more extreme porn usage. Not that she didn't think he viewed porn AT ALL, but she had no idea, until after marriage, just how much.
lovelysoul at May 13, 2011 6:02 AM
OFF TOPIC, but is anyone else eternally grateful to A&E for releasing the entire Farscape series in one package?
And as for men being, I guess corupted?, in that they want regular women to look like fantasy porn women - I'd guess that that really isnt the case, and if it is women realy only have themselves to blame.
You've created a slut shaming culture to inflict upon yourselves and alot of you withhold sex at the drop of a hat so men go elsewhere.
I dont know if this laothsome attitude twords sex is beacuase the self appointed leaders of womens ideological movments are, more often then not, a fridgid bunch of pigs who have never had a real orgasm, but if more men could get sex on a regular basis they wouldnt be spending $40 dollars for one porn movie
lujlp at May 13, 2011 6:21 AM
"How many fathers would want their daughters enjoying that industry? How many husbands would trust the respect she had for him if she enjoyed these images? I don’t think many would. But so many men enjoy, defend and encourage porn. I see many men spend more time defending pornography, sticking up for pornography then I see them stick up for the real normal boring, not as blindingly sexually obvious women in their real life. Their wives. Their girlfriends. Their daughters. Their mothers. Too many men act like white knights for porn, too many men side with porn. Over the actual woman in their lives."
This may be a bit extreme, but you have a great point.
As I've said here many times, I used to love watching porn. There was a period in my 30s when we had bootlegged satellite where I watched it daily - masturbating before my husband came home. This was mostly because I was so dissatisfied sexually in my marrige, so I relate to why many men use it this way too.
But, a male friend of mine became a porn star, then a producer/director of porn, and I got to see the industry up close - the way the girls are treated and talked about, basically like meat. How they put their lives on the line having UNPROTECTED sex for a few hundred bucks...getting tested for HIV every 2 months...all for our viewing pleasure.
Now, I just can't watch it because I know what goes on behind the scenes. It's a horrible, abusive industry. Not just to women, but men also.
And yet, I expect men to defend it, but it disturbs me that someone like Amy defends porn so often in her blog. She obviously has bought the idea that it's a cleaner industry, even with women in powerful positions (a few are), and that it's about women "owning" their sexuality, empowering them, etc, that the industry puts out as its hype.
lovelysoul at May 13, 2011 6:22 AM
"...if more men could get sex on a regular basis they wouldnt be spending $40 dollars for one porn movie>"
You're giving away your age, Luj. Hardly anyone pays $40 for porn movie now. It's all on the internet.
Look, there is obviously a disparity between what women view as a "regular basis" and what men do. My ex wanted sex 3 or 4 times a day, and I tried to keep up with that. But most women won't. And, ultimately, I was exhausted and HATED having sex with him because it was on demand and a chore.
Surely, there are men out there not getting sex even once a week and that is wrong, but I also suspect that many men have such strong sex drives that they are feeling deprived even while getting it 3 or 4 times a week.
And, my gfs and I have discussed that our highly sexed partners usually forget how recently they just had sex. It's very common for a guy to say, "We haven't had sex in soooo long", and it was, like, day before yesterday!
Guys, you can't be like a panting dog all the time. That is a turn off. A friend of mine, who has been married for 18 yrs or so, just confided that she is so exhausted trying to please her Italian husband that she sometimes lies that she's having her period just to give herself a break.
He's obviously a hot-blooded guy, and they have a great marriage, but ultimately, this kind of sexual pressure keeps the woman from enjoying the experience.
lovelysoul at May 13, 2011 6:36 AM
"Sexual openness at the beginning of a relationship will save you time and heartache. It's not just porn we are talking about either. For example, if a guy wants anal, he should look for a woman who likes that (some of my girlfriends orgasm from anal or at least claim to) and not try to date someone unwilling and hope they'll cave later. Same for girls- there are guys who won't go down on gals. If you are a gal who loves that and wants that regularly, it's good to rule those men out. It's about sexual compatibility."
The same criteria we used to pick perfect sex partners are not necessarily the same qualities you want in a spouse.
The guy who is impulsive enough to find new and exciting places to have sex or gives great head, could also be impulsive enough to empty your joint account to buy bon bons.
Might I suggest that in a realistic world, character and friendship might have more value than perfect sexual compatibility?
Isabel1130 at May 13, 2011 6:38 AM
A few things, even on the net they charge 30-40 for higher end porn from big name porn production companies.
Someone suggested that men should tell their parnteres if they used porn as it might be a deal breaker, I agree with that sentiment, but by the sme token women shouldalso tlell men if their idea of a ragining sex life means once every other month in the missionary position with no foreplay.
I get that everyone has different levels of libido, LS tell your freind to tell her husband that she cant have intercourse that often and see if her husband will settle for her sitting on his face while she jerks him off. Or offer to suck him off in the shower on his way to work the next morning.
Now I dont know your friends personally, but I'd be willing to bet that if she offered to get him off and tell him that in this instance he needent return the favor he wouldnt say no.
lujlp at May 13, 2011 7:12 AM
"I see many men spend more time defending pornography, sticking up for pornography then I see them stick up for the real normal boring, not as blindingly sexually obvious women in their real life. Their wives. Their girlfriends. Their daughters. Their mothers. Too many men act like white knights for porn, too many men side with porn. Over the actual woman in their lives."
You know how people can be induced into diabetes with diets high in sugars and carbohydrates? This is an example of the constant poisoning of the public by the endless parade of bad news.
Turn on the telly or look at online news, and tragedy after tragedy is paraded before you. Fascinated, you buy the advertised products associated with those reports - and you come to think that "this is all there is: misery."
But even in the litigious morass that is America, you will find men who will run to defend women, even ones they do not know.
Even as social forces seek to rub them out, to increase the opportunities to prey on misery.
You, too, can be part of that army, seeking to alienate men, to rob yourself of a valuable ally: just insist that what other people want for you should be provided by the nearest "him". Just displace any social skill to demanding something at the point of a deputy's Taser. Just imply that you deserve things for merely existing, as a "right".
That's what I gather you've been taught so far.
Radwaste at May 13, 2011 7:22 AM
"She obviously has bought the idea that it's a cleaner industry, even with women in powerful positions (a few are), and that it's about women "owning" their sexuality, empowering them, etc, that the industry puts out as its hype."
"She has bought..."?
Yours is not the only story. Not everyone can be an Emma Watson, growing rich and ridiculously cute in a protective environment.
And the difference between a college dorm and the set can merely be the cameras. How many people in your part of town, out on the dance floor doing the Electric Slide, have "protected" sex, much less get tested for anything?
Haven't you noticed the deluge of amateur porn out there? What "industry claims" do you brace against that?
Now, lest I be accused of trying a "two wrongs" fallacy, how about consulting a couple of the actual participants firsthand?
You can also argue that these are exceptions, but you could look at tracilords.com (I've seen her at DragonCon, very nice) and Asia Carrera's site. Of course, there's also Grace Undressed, awesomely well written, which explains the entire range of frustrations a human being might have.
Your position reminds me of the arguments about abstinence education. Yes, it would be nice if you could slow some folks down a little, to drop the illegitimate birthrate and the spread of disease, but there is a reason it doesn't work.
Radwaste at May 13, 2011 7:56 AM
Lovelysoul, you should read the article. Because the group of men that he's talking about are the ones with mild porn habits, not men who actually are addicts or have unhealthy habits. Their wives and girlfriends are dragging them in so that the therapist can play marriage cop.
JJ at May 13, 2011 8:36 AM
"Now, lest I be accused of trying a "two wrongs" fallacy, how about consulting a couple of the actual participants firsthand?"
I did. Many times. I've met more young, female porn "stars" in the last few years than most people ever do, and that's why I stopped glorifying this industry. These girls, who are not much older than my daughter, mostly live in group situations, barely surviving, and a lot of them are on drugs. Almost all come from sad home lives. No surprise there.
They worked for Vivid, Playboy, etc, but also tons of internet porn companies. Very few make it big, like the names you mentioned. But some get HIV.
I mean, to each his own, but it's a business peddling flesh, and it's frankly disturbing. I'm no prude, but after seeing it firsthand, my conscience just won't let me enjoy it the way I did before. There's a tremendous human toll piad for this "entertainment".
lovelysoul at May 13, 2011 9:23 AM
There is a toll for all enertainment - few actors make it big, alot of stunt workers wind up dead or disabled, most of the people who sacrifice their education never attain sports golry.
And most of those who do still wind up dirt poor
lujlp at May 13, 2011 9:28 AM
My ex-wife pulled this stunt on me, only with friends. To them, I became a porn and sex addict who "wanted to do things". My ex gave no details, so they naturally assumed the worse.
My wife didn't inform her circle that my "porn addition" consisted of viewing the online equivalent of Playboy and occasionally very conservative, straight, amateur porn (which she knew, because she'd watched it with me more than once.) And that my "sex addition" was wanting sex more than twice a month, that I'd asked for a blow job [she never gave me one], that I sent her a link to some lingerie I thought would be sexy on her and that we might try a sex toy. Had even her bitchiest friends known that, my ex wouldn't have gotten very far.
My wife also left out that every now and then, especially if I had performance problems, we'd watch some late-night cable erotica or amateur porn together AT HER SUGGESTION and she'd get extremely turned on (and then later deny it.)
There is an addage that if a hammer is your only tool, everything becomes a nail. Thus it was that when porn became my wife's weapon and everything became related to that. It was all about her controlling me and our relationship (and was so long before porn entered the picture. The porn meme played into all of that.)
That's what this is all about. Control. Women finding ways to control not just their sexuality, but their husband's or boyfriend's sexuality as well.
(In addition to control, my ex-wife not only has a low libido, low self esteem and, due largely to being raised in a very conservative religion, is fundamentally disgusted by her own sexual desires. Unfortunately, she wasn't, and still isn't honest, with herself about any of this. "Porn addiction" helped feed this since it required no self-examination; she could simply demonize me. Thank God, this didn't happen during the ritual-child-abuse hysteria age.)
Joe at May 13, 2011 9:40 AM
"There is a toll for all enertainment - few actors make it big, alot of stunt workers wind up dead or disabled, most of the people who sacrifice their education never attain sports golry."
Yeah, but comparatively, stunt workers and actors get paid very well. The whole movie industry is unionized. My best gf is a scenic worker (painter) and she gets $30 an hr and double overtime. The unions make sure she gets an extremely fair wage PLUS benefits, like health insurance. She just worked on the Twilight films in Lafayette, LA and she made $45,000 in a little under 4 months of filming.
Compare that to the $200 or $300 your average girl gets for a day of blowing somebody and/or taking it up the ass with 2 somebodies to be distributed worldwide on the internet - making those distributers very rich - and it's just not the same. Especially knowing that she's risking contracting HIV or a host of other STDs in the process. That's somebody's daughter, guys. She's a human being.
We're a nation of consumers. We don't care about the human toll as long as it's delivered to us...on our plates, doorsteps, our TVs, or computer screens. Blood diamonds, who the fuck cares, right? Sweat factories, child labor...that's halfway way around the world, so we don't really want to know.
And, as long as we can beat off in the privacy of our own homes, we'll tell ourselves that the people we're watching are probably all being paid well and living the good life, like Jenna Jamison, Traci Lords, or Asia Carerra, whoever she is...because that's what we NEED to believe not to have a guilty conscience.
But it's not the truth, guys. The majority of the porn you consume uses young girls who are paid peanuts, exploited for their naivete and treated like meat. They're laughed at and ridiculed (called whores) by the very men (mostly) who are producing this entertainment and getting very rich off your willingness to buy it.
lovelysoul at May 13, 2011 12:39 PM
But it's not the truth, guys. The majority of the porn you consume uses young girls who are paid peanuts, exploited for their naivete and treated like meat.
How do you know this. Don't you live in the everglades. Porn isn't produced in the everglades, it's produced in CA.
Also how do you know everything about all porn and also what kind of porn everyone is watching?
I've never even heard of the women that you're talking about.
We get it, you don't like porn. But that doesn't mean that any man who looks at porn is a porn addict who needs to be brought to heel by some neurotic woman. Get over it.
Pill at May 13, 2011 2:21 PM
Posted by: Erin at May 13, 2011 1:42 AM
Sounds like your describing marriage for hard working Beta men.
TomJW at May 13, 2011 3:23 PM
I have read all the posts, but no one hit on why I watch porn...
Because I am lazy, and my wife and I like squeeky clean, just got out of the shower minty fresh sex. She MUST orgasm each and every time, that is my self imposed rule, Thou shall not cume before Yeh. It should be a commandment!
So the above happens every Sunday morning, we have no kids, married for 15 yrs and both in our mid 40's. We had sex more often in the past, but as we get older things change.
I watch porn its of the vanilla variety. My wife found my collection was a bit freaked out...said she could not do those things it would hurt her jaw, and wreck her back/neck/etc. Told her I did not expect her too, and we left it at that
The biggest key to sexual happiness is finding a partner that wants it more or less as often and in the same way as you do.
Hmm what to do about the other 6 days? I am lazy, did I mention that. I would prefer to jerk off than take the trouble of getting all cleaned up and spending that kind of energy to make sure she has a good time as well. She would do her wife duty if I insisted, I could probebly get her to give me a blow job anytime I wanted, but whatever. She is my best friend, I would not want her to do anything she did not want to. But, if she was feeling horny on a Tuesday night, well we would have to take care of that!
and Guys, ever heard of a USB flash drive? Delete your Internet cache, put ALL your porn on the flash drive and hide it somewhere your 10 yr old daughter will not find it. I cannot believe any guy would be so frilling stupid as to expose his child to this stuff.
Objectification? a porn girl, if she was smarter would hook to make $$ more than what she is getting paid by the movie studio. There would be no permenant record of her on the Internet, it is unfortunate that these women do not realize that they could make more in one hour of hooking than they would get paid all day on a film set.
BobbyCanuck at May 13, 2011 4:05 PM
Lovelysoul, now a question, granting that you've talked to a lot of losers in that business:
What would they be doing now, otherwise?
Radwaste at May 13, 2011 7:16 PM
I can't seem to post.
lovelysoul at May 13, 2011 8:57 PM
I live in South FL. There's plenty of porn made here. That's where my friend got his start in the porn industry.
I also visited him in LA, where he had a studio, and worked for the major porn companies. He now lives in Thailand and makes porn there, with young asian girls, immersed in poverty, just trying to put food on the table. He's only around 30 yrs old and bringing in a lot of money off internet porn.
With the internet, porn is made everywhere. You're deluding yourself if you think it's only made in CA. Anybody with the proper camera equipment who can build websites can produce porn and get it into your living room.
lovelysoul at May 13, 2011 8:57 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2011/05/12/a_wise_take_on.html#comment-2136658">comment from lovelysoulOne of your posts went to my spam folder, lovelysoul. Did you not get a notification that popped up? It should, if your post goes to spam. You should be able to post now (now that it's rescued). Sorry about that!
Amy Alkon at May 13, 2011 9:38 PM
Okay, now, what would they be doing now, otherwise?
Radwaste at May 14, 2011 6:38 AM
"Okay, now, what would they be doing now, otherwise?"
So, that's a justification?
In America, there is a lot of other things these girls could be doing rather than sell their bodies.
In Thailand...maybe not so much. But this hardly, in my view, absolves anyone of guilt for helping make this option one of their very few.
lovelysoul at May 14, 2011 7:25 AM
In America, there is a lot of other things these girls could be doing rather than sell their bodies.
And yet they choose not to do something else. Who are you to tell them what they can or can not do with their own bodies?
lujlp at May 14, 2011 7:47 AM
Maybe there should be "conflict free" porn, like "conflice free" diamonds.
Girlfriend in Tears: I can't believe you watch this trash!
Boyfriend: But babe! It's CONFLICT FREE! This shit guarantees that she's paid and treated well, AND there's a clause that she MUST have a genuine orgasm!
Meloni at May 14, 2011 8:15 AM
I'm not telling them what they can or can't do. I'm just saying that's hardly a justification for helping fund an industry that exploits them.
I imagine the guys who go over to Thailand to have sex with little girls and boys say to themselves, "What else would they be doing? Playing in the street?" Maybe they actually believe they're providing a valid public service. After all, their money helps put food on the table. But that's a bogus justification.
The porn industry RECRUITS girls. That's what my friend did in LA. He got a higher wage each time he brought in a girl to do a film with him. So, he, like a lot of people, has websites promising these girls (and guys) exciting, lucrative careers in porn. Mostly, they post nude videos of themselves on his websites hoping to be picked. He makes money on each post.
The girls who actually made it to his LA studio had to first "audition" with him and very few probably got on screen, I'm guessing. When I was there, he had probably 7 or 8 young girls living with him in his studio.
I'll never forget one girl he brought to visit, about 18, crying as he told her she had gotten "too fat" to do regular scenes and now she'd have to do the "n---ger fucking scenes." That's all the work he could find her.
I hestitate to call him a friend, really, because he's so disgusting in the way he treats women. But I've known him since he was a kid and have hopes that he will eventually evolve into a better person. But his foray into the porn industry has done nothing to help. It's a truly ugly industry.
lovelysoul at May 14, 2011 8:19 AM
Might I suggest that in a realistic world, character and friendship might have more value than perfect sexual compatibility?
So are these things mutually exclusive? Nope, I'm quite happy will all three of these in my current relationship :)
Maybe there should be "conflict free" porn, like "conflice free" diamonds.
There is some porn that is definitely better than others- IE actors are paid, tested regularly for STDs, Abby Winters comes to mind. Women might even enjoy that too.
Kate at May 14, 2011 8:57 AM
"So, that's a justification?"
No, LS, it is a question you have dodged.
You have made the point that this is bad. Now, continue. You know that just pointing out the bad things in life doesn't lead to good - it leads to knee-jerk legislation.
Radwaste at May 15, 2011 10:32 AM
How did I dodge it? I said that, in America at least, there are so many other things a young person could be doing. Going to school, waitressing, interning...even stripping, they'd make more money and be safer!
And I didn't suggest legislating. I'm suggesting that if there wasn't such a huge market that every guy (like my friend) with a camera and some tech savvy wouldn't be making this lower end porn that's all over the web, recruiting young girls to take off their clothes and screw strangers.
If no one will buy it, they can't sell it. Of course, I don't expect that to happen, but if I could get one guy (or girl) on this thread to think about porn differently - to really consider the human toll behind it - maybe they'd cut back or at least choose not to view the seedier made stuff.
None of it is exactly "conflict free", but if you've got to view it, stick to the higher end.
lovelysoul at May 15, 2011 12:16 PM
If no one will buy it, they can't sell it.
I agree with you there LS, but the reason most guys buy it is because their wives or girlfriends keep saying no when they ask for sex.
lujlp at May 15, 2011 1:46 PM
I guess that's true. I can't really relate, as I was never one to say "no" (although I should have! lol). It always seems like a stupid strategy for a wife to employ, with outside temptations being what they are. Porn would be the least of my worries. Don't they worry you'll cheat?
That was the main thing that kept me saying "yes". It was pretty obvious that if he didn't get it from me, he had plenty of other opportunities.
Perhaps inducing a little jealousy in the situation might help? I suspect wives get complacent because they take it for granted you'll stick around anyway.
lovelysoul at May 15, 2011 2:08 PM
Well, one more step...
"In America, there is a lot of other things these girls could be doing rather than sell their bodies."
The operative word here is "could". These girls picked something they don't see as horrible as you do, having not thought about anything and not having your experience. Close association, that is.
I still want to know just how differently they act off-screen.
How many high-school single mothers are there, again?
Radwaste at May 15, 2011 6:12 PM
"I still want to know just how differently they act off-screen.
How many high-school single mothers are there, again?"
I'm a bit shocked at your rationalization process, Rad. Yeah, these girl pick something that they don't think is as bad as I do, though I have a lot more life experience than they do, but that doesn't mean they won't regret their choice in, like, 10 minutes!
Many of today's parents have experience in drug use, for example, and yes, they hope they can translate that as bad to their kids. Still, some -perhaps many - will try it, but that doesn't mean that drug use is ok. Just that naive kids, with no experience, are going to try drugs.
And naive kids are going to get pregnant, but are we, as a society, going to accept this as ok? And, furthermore, are we going to say that as long as you're a worthless slut, who will probably get pregnant anyway, you might as well have sex in front of the camera for our pleasure? Seriously? That is your thinking, Rad?
I really don't even know what to say to that.
lovelysoul at May 15, 2011 6:37 PM
"I really don't even know what to say to that."
Because you've been emoting, not thinking, from the start.
The cold, hard world is telling girls that they can have sex on camera and get paid for it.
Not you. Not me.
You've said there's an alternative. I've asked what that is, not because there isn't one, but to try to get you to say what that is - for the girls who decide that having sex might as well be on camera.
-----
This blog has repeatedly and pointedly taken the position that what you do with your own body is your business.
Now it's different, because you don't approve - again, of girls who think that as long as they're going to have sex, they can do it on camera and get paid for it.
Right?
That's as far as I've ever gone with this. You've taken the opportunity to move the goalposts now, when all I intended was to point out that bad decisions and "immoral"* behavior continues without letup.
I must have missed your suggestion for what else {girls who will have sex with relative strangers}+{a camera and money are involved} might be changed to mean.
Take away the camera and money, we get legions of chaste princesses? Of course not. Maybe I shouldn't mention that, now you'll fixate on it.
I don't expect you to remember this, because few remember even their own posts for very long, but I have expressed and opinion that I retain: promiscuity is a danger to present society. On camera or off.
But if you want somebody or some group to stop, you probably ought to say how to get that to happen, just to finish thinking about the problem.
I am merely contending that girls gone wild have done so with or without cameras present, and, by the way, the new notoriety might be magnifying a problem which has existed for some time.
-----
*Immoral - n. - a property of an action or an ethical characteristic of an individual which is different from that considered ideal by the observer, sometimes but not always accompanied by
Radwaste at May 16, 2011 2:54 AM
"But if you want somebody or some group to stop, you probably ought to say how to get that to happen, just to finish thinking about the problem."
I addressed this already. Stop watching it. That will decrease demand.
As for immorality, in general, we can teach our daughters to have self-respect, and choose their partners carefully. Not all will listen, but many do. And there's still a VAST difference between having sex with a boyfriend in private and having sex with a stranger...with a camera.
Even if a girl chooses to have sex with a stranger, or get drunk and topless on spring break, it doesn't need to be filmed and stay on the internet forever. We've almost all done similar things growing up, and, thankfully, they weren't filmed or photographed. Today, however, almost any stupid mistake is documented, posted or twittered.
In this digital age, we must remind young people that even if it seems like a great idea in the moment, that photo or film is going to stay on the web the rest of their lives - possibly costing them jobs, relationships, and causing them embarrassment in the future. I constantly stress this to my kids, just over clothed photos, but certainly, it would apply to doing porn.
That said, there will always be a certain percentage of people who will do immoral things for money or attention. No way to stop this. But that doesn't mean we glorify it or consume it either.
Our consumption of porn is the biggest reason it is made. That's not "the cold hard world". That is you and me.
lovelysoul at May 16, 2011 3:25 AM
"Our consumption of porn is the biggest reason it is made. That's not "the cold hard world". That is you and me."
And that is very hypocritical to me and I have a very low threshold for that.
You once consumed the same porn and received the benefits from it. It helped you maintain your sanity as a bored and unsatisfied house wife at the expense of exploited women in the porn industry.
Then, one day, you became happy wife and do not need any help from watching porn anymore to maintain your sanity. So, you start to preach against the porn industry.
If you ever find yourself as a bored and sexually unsatisfied wife again, would you stop preaching?
I think you will.
chang at May 16, 2011 10:01 AM
Nicely done, LS. You don't have to answer me, of course, but that's what I was looking for, all in one post, and it's right.
Thank you!
Radwaste at May 16, 2011 5:03 PM
"If you ever find yourself as a bored and sexually unsatisfied wife again, would you stop preaching?"
I didn't just stop watching it once I became happy. I stopped after my friend got into the porn business, and he started showing me and telling me about his "work". I wanted to be supportive - at first I thought it was a great opportunity for him. My impression of porn was that everybody was having a great time and nobody was being hurt.
The more I learned, and certainly meeting many of these girls, changed my mind. Kinda like visiting a slaughterhouse might turn someone into a vegetarian. I personally can't enjoy watching it anymore. But that's just my own reaction to it. I'm understanding of the fact that others don't have that experience and can still get enjoyment out of viewing it.
lovelysoul at May 17, 2011 6:12 AM
Leave a comment