Amy,

Do you like eating meat rare to medium rare?
Do you like your scrambled eggs runny? Soft-boiled (with soldiers?) Sunny-side up?

Irradiated meat maybe one tool amongst many.

But it seems that Craig Goldwyn's method of cooking is more reliant on robotic thermometers and cooking food so it's well done and that seems to be because there is no examination of the other tools, namely, producing food in the first place so as to reduce disease.

That might include not having the massive and environmentally damaging waste pools that are the by product of enormous factory farms, making sure that workers have excellent sanitation, and probably other factors (that my poor brain cannot think of at this stage.)

But there are other issues too. I don't mind paying more for cage free eggs. I eat meat, I eat chicken, I eat eggs, but for my own needs, I do not see any reason to eat eggs from debeaked chicken crammed body to body.

Irradiated food may be a tool, but it's not an excuse to ignore all the other ways that food production can be improved just by saying, "well we can nuke it in the final step" and "make sure you only hard boil your eggs and cook your prime rib well done."

I don't mean to be irritating, but that's how I feel about food producers who want to use irradiated food to cover all the disgusting production sins they commit to keep their costs down as well as the blame the victim types who say that no one should be eating runny eggs or medium rare meat.

I don't know who first thought it would be a great idea to take sick cows and grind them up, debeak chickens, or to create ponds filled with thousands of gallons of pig shit, or to put laborers in fields all day without proper sanitation, but yeah, I am less than overwhelmed when these same guys say, but but but you won't let us irradiate your food or but but but you didn't cook your food to well done!

Anyway, I'm going to crash so I can enjoy some nice runny buttery scrambled eggs in the morning.

It never occurred to me to buy from my local farmer because their operation is safer. I buy from them because the meat tastes better.

Ahh, there's the "debeak chickens" meme again.

Not in SC. I know a coop operator personally.

Giggle test: How is "debeaking" done? There are 30 thousand of them in the coop, and they will be there for six weeks. They still have to eat, without interruption, and one of them dying, let's say by pecking assault, is worth a dime. Ten cents. Go.

Don't forget to show the ROI.

Actually, it gets onto the surface of the steaks, not in it. I am a proponent of irradiation, especially for things like ground beef where the surface is inside once the grinding is done. The luddites have won that battle, despite that big, radiating orb in the sky. Who needs reason or science when fearmongering will do?

My youngest is working on her PhD in food science and can tell you far more about food safey and contamination than you can stand to hear.

I'll point out that all meat processing is done under the supervision of the USDA - even the research animals at my daughter's school. No business is in business to kill its customers. One of those big, evil corporations is even paying for my daughter's research and funding her education. Last, very few people will pay more than the lowest possible price for most things, including food.

So, even this non-fan of big government in general and the Department of Agriculture in particular is a big fan of government agricultural inspections.

Last, I'd suggest a little personal liability for officers of corporations is in order here. When you're responsible, and somebody dies because of something you allowed to happen... Don't rest easy folks, I think the same should apply to police and district attorneys.

Let's break this paragraph down:

I don't know who first thought it would be a great idea to take sick cows and grind them up, debeak chickens, or to create ponds filled with thousands of gallons of pig shit, or to put laborers in fields all day without proper sanitation, but yeah, I am less than overwhelmed when these same guys say, but but but you won't let us irradiate your food or but but but you didn't cook your food to well done! -- jerry at August 12, 2011 1:03 AM

to take sick cows and grind them up,

These animals shouldn't be put in the human food supply. If they are, it is possible that they may pass on the disease (BSE/CJv/Mad Cow) but it is extremely rare -- from the NIH: "It affects about one person in every one million people per year worldwide; in the United States there are about 200 cases per year." How many people die on the roads today? How many heart attacks today?

debeak chickens,

I know you're tired as you wrote this, but what does this cruelty have to do with food safety? Nothing -- conflating the two is a red herring.

or to create ponds filled with thousands of gallons of pig shit, or to put laborers in fields all day without proper sanitation,

Take a guess what the fertilizer that has been used on fields for centuries before this. They don't make manure spreaders to spread the wealth (unless you're in D.C.). Also a lot of Vietnam Vets can testify that mama-san working in the rice paddies would pop a squat right there. Its fertilizer.

I am less than overwhelmed when these same guys say, but but but you won't let us irradiate your food or but but but you didn't cook your food to well done!

The technology to irradiate has been around since the '50s. It has just been the constant fear of "radiation" pounded out of the green/peacenik movement that has held back the technology from being used. In the meantime e-Coli and other food poisoning goes on. It is just that the spinach now comes in a little plastic bag that we can ignore the lessons that our mothers, grandmothers ad. infinitum knew: wash the vegetables before serving them.

You ignored the point of Amy's post and the authors of the referenced articles: no matter how careful the whole food chain is, feces occurs.

The same irrational luddites that oppose irradiation of meat and vegetables are also the foremost opponents of genetically modified food. Somebody has watched "The Attack of The Killer Tomatoes" one too many times. Unfortunately, the fearful and ignorant are scientifically illiterate.

environmentally damaging waste pools

*cough*

You know what some places do with their "waste" pools? they run large hoses out to nearby farmland and fertilize the land the "old fashioned" way.

That's right: cow manure. It's good for the crops, it's less expensive than other fertilizers, and waste producer gets paid to get rid of their product.

*sigh*

So-called "debeaking" is actually "blunting" of the beak, so that the chickens can't do much damage to each other. It only takes the tip of the beak off, and is likely just slightly more painful than clipping your toenails.

A couple of things:

"I know you're tired as you wrote this, but what does this cruelty have to do with food safety? Nothing -- conflating the two is a red herring"

Maybe, but not a total red herring since my point was that there are many things that factory farm operations will do in the name of profits that the rest of us if we knew would be appalled and would object to.

"*sigh*

So-called "debeaking" is actually "blunting" of the beak, so that the chickens can't do much damage to each other. It only takes the tip of the beak off, and is likely just slightly more painful than clipping your "

Well the wiki article on it says, there are pain receptors in the beak and the chickens certainly act as if they are in pain. And the wiki goes on to state this is mainly used when the birds are kept in close confinement. I agree with the rest of your analysis: clipping my nails is not painful.

"Giggle test: How is "debeaking" done? There are 30 thousand of them in the coop, and they will be there for six weeks. They still have to eat, without interruption, and one of them dying, let's say by pecking assault, is worth a dime. Ten cents. Go"

Go wikipedia it if you don't know how it's done.

"You know what some places do with their "waste" pools? they run large hoses out to nearby farmland and fertilize the land the "old fashioned" way"

That there are uses for the cesspools when properly maintained and when luck is with the farmer doesn't negate the risk and danger to waterways, irrigation canals, and public health when the cesspools are improperly maintained or when a storm causes them to overflow.

I LOVE irradiated meat. I grew up in Western Europe in a country where all the meat was irradiated. You could rip it out of the packaging, plop it on a plate, and eat the entire thing without having to worry about getting sick. It's awesome. I hate that they don't do it here, and for no good reason (oh no! RADIATION! That's scawwy!!)

You Just Can't Beat That Irradiated Meat

Bruce Banner can

The problem I think, has always been that people think "irradiation" is the same as making something "radioactive"...

This may put things in perspective.

http://www.3quarksdaily.com/3quarksdaily/2007/08/towards-an-age-.html

Sigh. I just love it when the very first poster jumps in to reiterate the point that Amy debunked in the article.

"Well the wiki article on it says..."

Yeah, because Wikipedia is 100% reliable. Especially when it comes to topics that leftists care about.

"So-called "debeaking" is actually "blunting" of the beak, so that the chickens can't do much damage to each other. It only takes the tip of the beak off, and is likely just slightly more painful than clipping your toenails"

Annnd once again: who does this? Not the coop operator I know personally, here in SC.

Got any nerves in that there beak?

How much does it cost, again?

What damage are those chickens doing to each other?

I'm trying to get people to look things up.

What?

Irradiation has nothing to do with free-range chicken vs coop chicken. I think both, once meat, would benefit.

I might argue against making it a requirement, though, because of cost and availability.

And I am old enough to remember that microwave ovens were denounced because of radiation - indeed, people still refer to "nuking" food.

I'm not exactly sure why it's necessary. People have been eating meat straight off the cow for years, and nothing much comes of it. Sushi isn't even cooked, and if proper procedures are followed it's perfectly safe. The Inuit eat raw seal. Contamination is a risk, but spinach has been contaminated too. I don't know if it warrants making all the farmers and slaughter houses spend who knows how many thousands of dollars on equipment they "think" is safe, and might be disproved in a decade. X-rays themselves, to my knowledge, are cumulative. Do we really need to expose our food to the risk, no matter how minimal, when proper safety procedures usually do the trick?

Maybe, but not a total red herring since my point was that there are many things that factory farm operations will do in the name of profits that the rest of us if we knew would be appalled and would object to. -- jerry at August 12, 2011 9:00 AM

You are dodging the question now. What this have to do with food safety?

So a farm is operated for profit. What is wrong with that? Should they operate to achieve a break-even? A loss?

Do you disagree with automated milking machines? Do you disagree with pasteurization of milk? What about having deer?

Trust me -- after milking cows for a few years -- I know that keeping stuff sanitized with cows involved is nigh on impossible. You stand in a 4' deep pit with the cows udders about mid-chest high. You then wash the udders with a solution and dip the milkers in another solution. You connect the four milkers and let them extract the milk. Meanwhile you have the cows that try to kick the milkers off. You then grab a hook (rubber end tipped) that goes over their back and under the cows pelvis to stop it from kicking the milker off. You are also standing there when the cows decide to relieve themselves. There is nothing like the urine splashing into the trench but it spreads out on the splash. And trust me that when they let the other one go -- <feces> splatters.

The issue is now, like chickens, cows have been bred to be either meat or milk animals. If you were to let the milk cows go in the woods with their calves, a large majority would die from mastitis and similar issues. The calf couldn't keep up with the milk production of the majority of the milk cows out there today.

The definition of a factory farm is also a question. If they have 80 head of cattle, 20 pigs and a few chickens -- are they a factory? What if it is 100? A 1000?

Again -- what does debeaking have to do with food safety?

Hi Jim,

If you can stop demanding people jump when you cry jump, and stop claiming people aren't answering your questions, and actually read their answers, you might find they answered your questions.

Why and when are chickens debeaked? How does that contribute to food safety? Congratulations!

Are we going to have to irradiate our red herrings from now on?

So, no one is going to commnet on my joke about the Hulk masterbating?

Jerry,

I'm reposting the majority of your reply comment here, until you go off onto your rant about the cesspools:
------------------------------------

Maybe, but not a total red herring since my point was that there are many things that factory farm operations will do in the name of profits that the rest of us if we knew would be appalled and would object to.

"*sigh*

So-called "debeaking" is actually "blunting" of the beak, so that the chickens can't do much damage to each other. It only takes the tip of the beak off, and is likely just slightly more painful than clipping your "

Well the wiki article on it says, there are pain receptors in the beak and the chickens certainly act as if they are in pain. And the wiki goes on to state this is mainly used when the birds are kept in close confinement. I agree with the rest of your analysis: clipping my nails is not painful.

"Giggle test: How is "debeaking" done? There are 30 thousand of them in the coop, and they will be there for six weeks. They still have to eat, without interruption, and one of them dying, let's say by pecking assault, is worth a dime. Ten cents. Go" -- jerry at August 12, 2011 9:00 AM

If you can stop demanding people jump when you cry jump, and stop claiming people aren't answering your questions, and actually read their answers, you might find they answered your questions.

Why and when are chickens debeaked? How does that contribute to food safety? Congratulations! -- jerry at August 12, 2011 10:22 PM

I re-read that post about five times, plus the time to re-post it.

Again, I'm not questioning the ethics debeaking. I'm not questioning the ethics of any farm from a small family up to an ADM corporate farm. They are a business, regardless of size, that needs to make a profit. They are going to do their best to produce healthy, profitable, nominally nutritious meats and vegetables for the market.

What I am questioning what debeaking has to do with food safety? Where in any of your comments do you address where food safety and debeaking come together?

I'm going to be generous, and assume I didn't get a response to my last post because Jerry just drifted away from this blog entry. It would never be caused by not being able to come up with a coherent, logical argument.

"Maybe, but not a total red herring since my point was that there are many things that factory farm operations will do in the name of profits"

Oh noes, that evil profit motive. Because in utopian communist paradises, there is no animal cruelty in agriculture.