Jews and most Christians are not ignoramuses who've been cowed into accepting Biblical authority blindly. We've *examined* the ACTUAL CONTENT of the Bible, *decided* we agree with its moral teachings, and *accepted* upon ourselves the path of growth and self-mastery it describes.
In other words, we're grownups....
That's the same reason we reject the claims of Islam and the *content* of the Koran.
This goes all the way back to the original revelation at Sinai - which is described as a covenant between God and an entire nation, instead of the (strawman) fable of some crazy guy coming down from a mountain saying "God spoke to me."
Moses himself - like Abraham and Sarah - is recorded arguing and challenging God.
It's also why Judea - and, later, Christendom - moved quicker than any other religious culture away from coercion, and towards personal conscience.
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2011/11/20/youre_all_going.html#comment-2779508">comment from Ben David
We've *examined* the ACTUAL CONTENT of the Bible, *decided* we agree with its moral teachings, and *accepted* upon ourselves the path of growth and self-mastery it describes
Oh, please. Most people were born into a religion and stayed in it because they don't give it -- or whether it's rational to believe in a big man in the sky -- any thought.
I'm interested in what you think the "personal conscience" was in all the kids who called me "dirty Jew" when I was growing up and told me I killed Jesus.
God is an immature, jealous, evil, mass-murdering brat. And you've *examined* the ACTUAL CONTENT of the Bible, *decided* we agree with its moral teachings, and *accepted* upon ourselves the path of growth and self-mastery it describes
Bullshit. Unless you're an evil fucker who believes in these sorts of "moral teachings."
Ok, and what makes your argument for God™ more valid than a Muslim's argument for God™?
Or what make's a Hindu's argument for Shiva® and Vishnu® invalid?
Jim P.
at November 20, 2011 7:32 AM
Let me moderate this just a tad.
America is the way it is, common law, etc., because of British Protestants. Not Portuguese Catholics - we're not Brazil. Not Spanish Catholics - we're not Mexico. Not French Catholics - we're not Quebec. Not Islamic anything - we're not sweaty desert madmen so intent on forcing others to worship the way we do we make entire nations hellholes.
These Protestants still carried a message, one of service to others. Sure, it wasn't kept perfectly clean as it was passed along, but it's a principle that works: when you sacrifice what you can to others without expectation of reward, and others do that as well, you get a better community. And no, you don't have to be a Thumper to act like this - but that's the example.
Enter the "ME FIRST!" generation...
When you see irreponsible behavior, whether it's just one of the Rude People™ or an OWS-er, they aren't expressing this principle, and I think we agree that they should.
Radwaste
at November 20, 2011 9:40 AM
America is the way it is, common law, etc., because of British Protestants. [...] These Protestants still carried a message, one of service to others. Sure, it wasn't kept perfectly clean as it was passed along, but it's a principle that works: when you sacrifice what you can to others without expectation of reward, and others do that as well, you get a better community.
And messages of predestination, intolerance, enforced conformity, and a few other messages that helped to screw up life for everyone.
When you see irresponsible behavior, whether it's just one of the Rude People™ or an OWS-er, they aren't expressing this principle, and I think we agree that they should.
The OWSers think they are doing public service. Haven't you heard, they doing this for us.
Conan the Grammarian
at November 20, 2011 11:57 AM
JimP doesn't get it:
and what makes your argument for God™ more valid than a Muslim's argument for God™?
I'm not really arguing - Jews don't proselytize - you can read, observe life, intuit, and make up your own mind.
And the fact that Judeo-Christendom has developed in that way - and respects both open argument and personal conviction - is the difference between us and convert-em-by-the-sword Islam.
Get it now?
Amy's discovered her inner child:
I'm interested in what you think the "personal conscience" was in all the kids who called me "dirty Jew" when I was growing up and told me I killed Jesus.
Uh-huh.
Like schoolyard tauntings of 10-year-olds are an accurate assessment of the Judeo-Christian ethos and cultural contribution.
I'm not really arguing - Jews don't proselytize - you can read, observe life, intuit, and make up your own mind.
And the fact that Judeo-Christendom has developed in that way - and respects both open argument and personal conviction - is the difference between us and convert-em-by-the-sword Islam. -- Ben David at November 20, 2011 1:13 PM
Let me generalize it then. What makes the Abrahamic religions with a monotheistic God™ more valid than Hindu with Shiva® and Vishnu®?
You also don't address the central tenet whether God™ exists. If he/she/it does exist -- why have there been no contact in over 2000 years?
And here is a question: is there no bullying of Muslim or Christian children in Israel based on the religion?
Jim P.
at November 20, 2011 3:04 PM
Well are you a dirty Jew?
You look pretty clean to me.
Bay
at November 20, 2011 5:23 PM
Pick your own message, Conan. Pick the right one!
Radwaste
at November 20, 2011 8:02 PM
JimP still doesn't get it:
Let me generalize it then. What makes the Abrahamic religions with a monotheistic God™ more valid than Hindu with Shiva® and Vishnu®?
You also don't address the central tenet whether God™ exists.
You've looped back to standard atheist talking points instead of addressing the point - which is that these questions are not resolved by either ignorance superstition or my-way-or-the-sword fundamentalism in most of Judeo-Christendom.
So the tactic of lumping together all religious people as ignorant, fearful doofusses is a purposeful lie by Harris and others who argue in this vein.
You ask:
is there no bullying of Muslim or Christian children in Israel based on the religion?
Nope - no religiously sanctioned, encouraged dissing/second-class citizenship similar to the Muslim idea of dhimmitude, or the Christian notion of eternal damnation for Jews.
Jewish doctrine is that moral, righteous gentiles are beloved by God just as Jews are.
There is obvious tension and hooliganism due to ongoing violence and suspicion of the "other". But any violence along these lines is roundly condemned wall-to-wall by mainstream Israelis and Jewish religious leaders.
Ben David
at November 21, 2011 5:55 AM
Amy's still in the schoolyard:
Address that. That evil stuff in the Bible...that's your morality?
What's to address?
You linked to a childish list of verses twisted out of context, starting with an obviously allegorical passage from Ezekiel that is childishly misunderstood as endorsing violence.
Then it goes on to quote Cain and Abel - a story whose obvious moral is God's abhorrence of murder - as further evidence of the "evil stuff in the Bible".
The list just gets more willfully stupid from there.
There ARE intelligent questions about Biblical morality. That link ain't it. Mammaleh, you are more intelligent than to pass of such puerile stuff as argument.
Here's one Buddhist tenet I don't remember seeing in any other religious book (not verbatim - I don't have the book):
"If you want to buy some gold, will you do so without testing it first?"
"No, of course not. It might be false, and then I would have been cheated."
"It is just so with my teachings. Do not accept them as truth until you have tested them first."
lenona
at November 21, 2011 11:54 AM
"You also don't address the central tenet whether God™ exists."
Hi Ben,
You my dear have not addressed my central tenet regarding gayness and promiscuity. Gay men are promiscuous because they are men and NOT because they are gay.
Please do reply this time.
Hugs n Kisses
Purplepen
at November 21, 2011 12:28 PM
The evil stuff in the bible BenDavid? How about the two or three score offences punishable by death?
One of those being failure to scream loudly enough while being raped
As for Islam spreaing by the sword, have you heard about what happened to the pagans and native americans when the cathoilcs got hold of them?
Or how about your own people? How many city stayes were your ancestores ordered to destroy by god in order for your people to have a home?
How many children in those towns had their throats slit? How many women were carried off as spoils of war?
Blah, blah, blah - same old strawmen.
Jews and most Christians are not ignoramuses who've been cowed into accepting Biblical authority blindly. We've *examined* the ACTUAL CONTENT of the Bible, *decided* we agree with its moral teachings, and *accepted* upon ourselves the path of growth and self-mastery it describes.
In other words, we're grownups....
That's the same reason we reject the claims of Islam and the *content* of the Koran.
This goes all the way back to the original revelation at Sinai - which is described as a covenant between God and an entire nation, instead of the (strawman) fable of some crazy guy coming down from a mountain saying "God spoke to me."
Moses himself - like Abraham and Sarah - is recorded arguing and challenging God.
It's also why Judea - and, later, Christendom - moved quicker than any other religious culture away from coercion, and towards personal conscience.
Ben David at November 20, 2011 1:04 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2011/11/20/youre_all_going.html#comment-2779508">comment from Ben DavidWe've *examined* the ACTUAL CONTENT of the Bible, *decided* we agree with its moral teachings, and *accepted* upon ourselves the path of growth and self-mastery it describes
Oh, please. Most people were born into a religion and stayed in it because they don't give it -- or whether it's rational to believe in a big man in the sky -- any thought.
I'm interested in what you think the "personal conscience" was in all the kids who called me "dirty Jew" when I was growing up and told me I killed Jesus.
Amy Alkon at November 20, 2011 6:28 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2011/11/20/youre_all_going.html#comment-2779511">comment from Amy AlkonHere's a bunch of the utter evil crap in the Bible:
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html
God is an immature, jealous, evil, mass-murdering brat. And you've *examined* the ACTUAL CONTENT of the Bible, *decided* we agree with its moral teachings, and *accepted* upon ourselves the path of growth and self-mastery it describes
Bullshit. Unless you're an evil fucker who believes in these sorts of "moral teachings."
Amy Alkon at November 20, 2011 6:30 AM
Blah, blah, blah - same old strawmen.
Ok, and what makes your argument for God™ more valid than a Muslim's argument for God™?
Or what make's a Hindu's argument for Shiva® and Vishnu® invalid?
Jim P. at November 20, 2011 7:32 AM
Let me moderate this just a tad.
America is the way it is, common law, etc., because of British Protestants. Not Portuguese Catholics - we're not Brazil. Not Spanish Catholics - we're not Mexico. Not French Catholics - we're not Quebec. Not Islamic anything - we're not sweaty desert madmen so intent on forcing others to worship the way we do we make entire nations hellholes.
These Protestants still carried a message, one of service to others. Sure, it wasn't kept perfectly clean as it was passed along, but it's a principle that works: when you sacrifice what you can to others without expectation of reward, and others do that as well, you get a better community. And no, you don't have to be a Thumper to act like this - but that's the example.
Enter the "ME FIRST!" generation...
When you see irreponsible behavior, whether it's just one of the Rude People™ or an OWS-er, they aren't expressing this principle, and I think we agree that they should.
Radwaste at November 20, 2011 9:40 AM
And messages of predestination, intolerance, enforced conformity, and a few other messages that helped to screw up life for everyone.
The OWSers think they are doing public service. Haven't you heard, they doing this for us.
Conan the Grammarian at November 20, 2011 11:57 AM
JimP doesn't get it:
I'm not really arguing - Jews don't proselytize - you can read, observe life, intuit, and make up your own mind.
And the fact that Judeo-Christendom has developed in that way - and respects both open argument and personal conviction - is the difference between us and convert-em-by-the-sword Islam.
Get it now?
Amy's discovered her inner child:
Uh-huh.
Like schoolyard tauntings of 10-year-olds are an accurate assessment of the Judeo-Christian ethos and cultural contribution.
Ben David at November 20, 2011 1:13 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2011/11/20/youre_all_going.html#comment-2780097">comment from Ben DavidJews don't proselytize -- not because they're superior, but because they spent centuries being told they'd get their asses handed to them if they did.
"Like schoolyard tauntings of 10-year-olds are an accurate assessment of the Judeo-Christian ethos and cultural contribution."
They're far less odious than all the evil shit in the link from the Bible and that "morality" you say you've "chosen."
Address that. That evil stuff in the Bible...that's your morality?
Amy Alkon at November 20, 2011 1:18 PM
Jim P. at November 20, 2011 3:04 PM
Well are you a dirty Jew?
You look pretty clean to me.
Bay at November 20, 2011 5:23 PM
Pick your own message, Conan. Pick the right one!
Radwaste at November 20, 2011 8:02 PM
JimP still doesn't get it:
You also don't address the central tenet whether God™ exists.
You've looped back to standard atheist talking points instead of addressing the point - which is that these questions are not resolved by either ignorance superstition or my-way-or-the-sword fundamentalism in most of Judeo-Christendom.
So the tactic of lumping together all religious people as ignorant, fearful doofusses is a purposeful lie by Harris and others who argue in this vein.
You ask:
Nope - no religiously sanctioned, encouraged dissing/second-class citizenship similar to the Muslim idea of dhimmitude, or the Christian notion of eternal damnation for Jews.
Jewish doctrine is that moral, righteous gentiles are beloved by God just as Jews are.
There is obvious tension and hooliganism due to ongoing violence and suspicion of the "other". But any violence along these lines is roundly condemned wall-to-wall by mainstream Israelis and Jewish religious leaders.
Ben David at November 21, 2011 5:55 AM
Amy's still in the schoolyard:
What's to address?
You linked to a childish list of verses twisted out of context, starting with an obviously allegorical passage from Ezekiel that is childishly misunderstood as endorsing violence.
Then it goes on to quote Cain and Abel - a story whose obvious moral is God's abhorrence of murder - as further evidence of the "evil stuff in the Bible".
The list just gets more willfully stupid from there.
There ARE intelligent questions about Biblical morality. That link ain't it. Mammaleh, you are more intelligent than to pass of such puerile stuff as argument.
Ben David at November 21, 2011 6:02 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2011/11/20/youre_all_going.html#comment-2782122">comment from Ben DavidOh, please. Every single verse there is "twisted out of context"? No.
Amy Alkon at November 21, 2011 6:25 AM
Here's one Buddhist tenet I don't remember seeing in any other religious book (not verbatim - I don't have the book):
"If you want to buy some gold, will you do so without testing it first?"
"No, of course not. It might be false, and then I would have been cheated."
"It is just so with my teachings. Do not accept them as truth until you have tested them first."
lenona at November 21, 2011 11:54 AM
"You also don't address the central tenet whether God™ exists."
Hi Ben,
You my dear have not addressed my central tenet regarding gayness and promiscuity. Gay men are promiscuous because they are men and NOT because they are gay.
Please do reply this time.
Hugs n Kisses
Purplepen at November 21, 2011 12:28 PM
The evil stuff in the bible BenDavid? How about the two or three score offences punishable by death?
One of those being failure to scream loudly enough while being raped
As for Islam spreaing by the sword, have you heard about what happened to the pagans and native americans when the cathoilcs got hold of them?
Or how about your own people? How many city stayes were your ancestores ordered to destroy by god in order for your people to have a home?
How many children in those towns had their throats slit? How many women were carried off as spoils of war?
lujlp at November 22, 2011 12:48 PM
"Like schoolyard tauntings of 10-year-olds are an accurate assessment of the Judeo-Christian ethos and cultural contribution."
Actually, since children act out what they are taught before they learn the effectiveness of concealing it, it's a very good indicator.
Where do you think they are taught to taunt others based on religion?
Radwaste at November 22, 2011 2:23 PM
What is really telling is how private people take every little thing you write as seen in their comments.
Sterling Neverson at November 27, 2011 4:44 PM
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