Wow, that is a warped statement and makes my next statement a tough one to have to write: Akin needs to win. In our two party system their usually are these two choices: bad choice A or worse choice B. A victory for McCaskill means these certainties: Harry Reid remains the Senate Majority leader, President Obama continues to have no senate oversight, and the last glimmer of chance for repealing Obamacare is dead as a doornail.

What he said was odious, but it's hard to imagine why his thoughts about rape could matter that much.

"What he said was odious, but it's hard to imagine why his thoughts about rape could matter that much."

You're kidding right? A lawmaker throws around terms like "legitimate rape" and it doesn't cause concern about what kind of rape he thinks is illegitimate? As a would-be senator, who is going to be in a place to make rules that affect a "woman's right to choose" absolutely his stance on this is relevant.

He spoke poorly, but I presume he meant those cases where consent was withdrawn after the fact were not legitimate.

You don't have to agree with his views, but I think demonizing those with whom one disagrees has gone too far. He doesn't seem to have the talent for success in politics, namely tell everyone what they want to hear.

His rationale is weird, but I'm with him on the rape issue. If it's a human, it's a human. Circumstances of the conception don't eliminate its rights. If it's not human, then it's okay to abort it for any reason you want, at any point. I personally agree with the first statement, but I can at least respect people who believe the second. All the wishy-washy "in cases of rape" people are really just saying that women who want to have sex deserve to be "punished" with a baby, while good girls who were forced should get a pass. That's pretty archaic and patriarchal.

> As a would-be senator, who is going to be in a
> place to make rules that affect a "woman's
> right to choose"

You can never, ever understand how badly I wish this were true.

But the abortion people did an end run around the legislature, didn't they? It was cowardly and it was naive. And people like you have lived in panty-pissing terror about it ever since. Forward motion on any number of other social nightmares has stopped cold because the people with strong beliefs about abortion didn't have the fucking character to persuade anyone else. This is precisely the attitude of infantile churlishness that's crippled effective (rather than large) government in my lifetime; since Roe.

If you're frightened about government power in such matters, over the idiot ramblings of a goof congressman from Missouri, then you probably deserve to be. Who gave him that authority?

Wuzzen me, little sister....

You know that politically incorrect uncle at the family reunions? The one who's lovable and well-meaning but hopelessly stuck in the 1950s and ignorantly sprinkles racist or sexist language in casual conversation, but who no one ever corrects because "he's just stuck in his ways"?

Yeah, don't nominate him for the U.S. Senate.

I'm not going to defend the position, but try to explain where it came from. I grew up in the '70s and '80s. My prime school years were several years after Roe v. Wade.

The health classes in school (early '80s) taught us that women rarely (

That was the bill of goods sold to us by our teachers and the MSM, back then. I don't know if it has changed after all these years.

I never actually questioned this until Amy posted this last night. Then I went searching and found out I was mis-educated all these years.

Probably the occurrence of pregnancy in forcible rape (dragged into an alley and beaten and raped) is in the less than 5% range for other reasons. The timing in the month, prevalence of birth control, morning after pills, the rapist being smart enough to wear a condom to limit DNA, etc. but I'm going to look at and question my assumptions.

That being said -- it sounds like Akin needs to do some research as well -- but I'm not going to condemn him for the same position that has been held by the right for the past 30+ years.

The lesser than sign (<) messed up my post above. Sorry. Here's the missing paragraph:

===================================
The health classes in school (early '80s) taught us that women rarely (<1%) became pregnant in a forcible rape situation. The reason for that was apparently women's bodies would react and secrete hormones that would stop the pregnancy.
===================================

I would suppose illegitimate rape would be when the woman claims she had too much to drink to give consent (but not so much as to prevent her driving to her house, disabling the alarm, and putting the dog out back)

But I love abortion debates; people who make exceptions for rape prove their pro life stance has nothing to do with life and everything to do with punishing dirty whores who enjoy sex.

And people who allow and exception for incest I cant understand at all. In the context of "rape and incest" the incest is obviously vollantary, otherwise it would have been covered under rape. And the only reason to allow an exception under vollentary incest is genetic problems leading to malformations or disease, yet the people who allow for incest exceptions also refuse exceptions for the same genetic and malformitive problems in case not stemming from incest.

And the people who refuse to allow exceptions in cases where the mother will/might die are just fucking cruel and ideologically blind and have no real basis for their beliefs

Twitter has a lot of stuff about the popularity of this belief. Start with McArdle here and watch her exchanges for the next to hours.

...when he said pregnancies in the case of "legitimate rape" are rare...

When the hell is any rape, of anyone, "legitimate"? WTF?

Guy's an asshat and should step down. Now. I don't care if he's "stuck in the 50s (and WTF is that??)". There is never a case where rape is "legitimate'. EVER.

Seriously. WTF.

☢ NOTE TRIGGER WARNING ☢

When the hell is any rape, of anyone, "legitimate"? WTF?

According to a few feminists when that person is a man put in jail under a false rape accusation.

&

Just about everyone hows made a "dont drop the soap in prison" joke

This is the same state that elected a dead guy to the US Senate.

http://deadsenator.com/

I'm pretty sure the "legitimate" tag was a ham-handed way of differentiating between violent, forcible rape and "I shouldn't have done that last night" claims.

Clearly not to somehow say that there's such a thing as a "legitimate" rape.

I know, AB, I was just sayin', is all.

Idiocy is rampant at the federal, state and local levels.

Can't fix stupid.

Speaking as a republican... he said whaaaaat????

Yeah, that's damnably ignorant. About normal for Missouri, though. Hates that place.

"I'm not going to condemn him for the same position that has been held by the right for the past 30+ years."

I'd expect someone in the House Science, Space, and Technology Committee to actually know something about science.

"I'm pretty sure the "legitimate" tag was a ham-handed way of differentiating between violent, forcible rape and "I shouldn't have done that last night" claims."

I like how you're sure about that. I'm not sure about that. There's a whole continuum of poor decision making and violence from "I shouldn't have done that" and being assaulted at gunpoint. So I'm not sure if he thinks slipping someone a roofie is rape, or taking advantage of them while they are drunk, or taking advantage of someone who's mentally handicapped, or any other number of things that fall short of being pulled into a dark alley.

Odd, I'd read somewhere that rape was more likely to result in pregnancy than the same given set of facts but in a consentual setting. I'll see if I can find that study later. When I read it I assumed that there was an evolutionary aedvantage to recombining genes that way. Got to go do school pick up right now though.

gun=rape
roofie=rape
vollentarily drinking= not rape
passed out from vollentarily drinking = rape

Rape -- forcing someone into a sex act -- is a disgusting crime that cannot be tolerated, no matter the gender of the rapist.

It has been the feminists and their enabling "white knights", though, who have begun to turn the term into a joke.

When colleges are coerced into having policies that make consensual sex a "rape" because the guy asked one too many times, or because, as the captain of the football team, he took advantage of the "power differential," and/or because the girl had (voluntarily) consumed alcohol, the term begins to get watered down, to say the least. Some qualifying terms have become inevitable, don't you think?

For all the people who huff and puff about any deviation from the feminist, PC line, how do you excuse such extreme infantilization of women (and such reflexive demonization of men)?

Let's not forget that the feminist-generated "study" of campus rape included a very substantial portion of "victims" who did not consider themselves to be so, and who continued to date their "rapists."

Finally, I have seen reports of a study showing that the candidate (and past "education" programs?) had it exactly backwards:

Giving lie to the feminist canard that rape is all about "power," the vast majority of forcibly raped women are in their peak fertile years, and, lo and behold, are in the peak fertility of their cycle. The result is that victims are proportionatley MORE likely to get pregnant as a result of a rape, unfortunately.

I retract my previous comment. I should have read what he said before commenting. The man's entitled to his opinion, but he's wrong on his facts.

I heard him doing an interview -- it was exactly what I suspected.

He had been told about some study years ago that said in forcible rape, pregnancy chances were very low. He also stated unequivocally all rape is wrong.

He fully apologized for all comments.

I've sen this attacked so many times in so many places today. Most ar saying oh wow, or sharpen the pitchforks, and some saying he's trying to push Sharia law, that he's pushing burkas/chastity belts. It was only here that I saw anyone actually attempt to say what, was medically incorrect about what he said.
And even that, doesn't actually disprove it.

Let's break down what he said:

"legitimate rape" as people actually have to admit, some things called rape are in a grey area, and some never happened. Statistics are thrown around, with varying definitions, and deliberate exageration/minimalizations usually for political spin.
Since this is also about abortion.
Case in point probably the most famous rape in US history, the one that started off Roe vs Wade, was later admitted to have never been a rape. But was claimed one to be one to gain sympathy in the court/press/public. So it does happen. Plenty of arguments on how often it happens and why. But it does happen.

"As I understand from Drs" he supposidly got his info from Doctors, and believed them about medical information, Sorry can't fault him for that. Alternatively like many politicians he could have lied, sure can fault him for that IF he did.

"Preegnancy from rape is very rare" Ok, some debate as to what rare or very rare actualy means.

" the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down" Ok I'm not an obgyn or a Dr of any kind. I don't know if not true or partially true. Definately not an on/off switch, but if partially true? I don't know. What I do know is some friends have been trying to concieve, and they mentioned to me some of the things to try to help it along. One of which was reduse stress. in other words stress and the situation does effect fertility.
How much it affects things, I have no idea. But again not an on off switch.

Also the human body does do odd things that we aren't conscious of. For example, it has been found in studies that a guy who thinks he is being cheated on, somehow his body chemistry changes the contents of his sperm.

And on the counter side is JayRs stuff about, being more likely since men can sense when women are in their cycle. And are more often in the fertile age range.

But hard science on this is pretty much impossible. It's just guesses.

Unfortunately, this discussion, mainly elsewhere, is being feuled by political slogan, to demonise a person and a party. and as MarkD said. "I should have read what he said before commenting." Which way too few are actually doing.

For example, it has been found in studies that a guy who thinks he is being cheated on, somehow his body chemistry changes the contents of his sperm.

What?

By the way, the national GOP has pulled his funding.

http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/akin-funding-rape-comments/2012/08/20/id/449146

Mitt Romney earlier called the remarks "inexcusable."

Stupid remarks made... trying to give a damn. Nope, can't give a damn.

See Sharon Osbourne vs men who've had their dicks cut off or more recently the whole rape jokes aren't funny controversy with comedian Daniel Tosh.

Really, I don't care about the "legitimate rape" portion of the debate. I was in Texas for "lie back and enjoy it" Clayton Williams; that's old news.

But the ignorance about rape and pregnancy risk! And the people here somehow claiming it's okay because they're ignorant too. I'm well aware of how stupid our lawmakers are but when they reveal it this blatantly they have to pay a price.

> But the ignorance about rape and pregnancy risk!

To be honest, I'm kinda skeeved that anyone would bother to hold and carry a street-level (non-medical) belief about the topic, either way.

I mean, how many orphan baby gizzards do you have to stir into a boiling pot of Baal's blood before you summon the Dark Lord, anyway?

And how badly do we, in a theoretically decent society, need to know?

(Allusion þ Lisanti)

This is a prime example of dirty politics. Divert attention. Get the feminists enraged. Make him look like a idiot, at best, or a jerk, at worst.

However,

Claire McCaskill knowingly billed the state of Missouri for her private airplane trips. To the tune of 70,000 dollars worth. She might of paid it back, but that, in my opinion, is only because she got caught.

Idiot vs. Thief.

I'll take the idiot, please.

@ Astra "But the ignorance about rape and pregnancy risk! And the people here somehow claiming it's okay because they're ignorant too."

Well than Astra, please enlighten us on the EXACT statistics on how likely it is.

@ Kevin "What?"

It looks like I am remembering something from The Human Animal and Desmond Morris from TLC. Though I'm not sure, since searchig the web for info on sperm, gets you links to all kind of weird pages.

But the ignorance about rape and pregnancy risk! And the people here somehow claiming it's okay because they're ignorant too. -- Astra at August 20, 2012 2:46 PM

Astra,

Do you know that food pyramid is really upside down? Do you know that fiber is an irritant to the bowels?

When did you find out? Did you happen to continue to believe in the information until you got here? Or do you still believe in the food pyramid?

For some reason, in the past number of years, I just never had a reason to bring up the discussion of forcible rape and pregnancy in polite conversation; let alone have to look for a source. I suspect that Akin hadn't either.

Now from the controversy -- he is learning.

Condemning someone because they were taught something erroneously and never investigated further is unfair. If he refused to change or learn -- that is another story.

Tweet of the week

But I love abortion debates; people who make exceptions for rape prove their pro life stance has nothing to do with life and everything to do with punishing dirty whores who enjoy sex.

Posted by: lujlp at August 20, 2012 7:30 AM
_____________________________

Check out this very lucid chart:

http://www.amptoons.com/blog/2006/03/21/why-its-difficult-to-believe-that-anti-choicers-mean-what-they-say/

The top is divided into three columns:

1. Policy

2. Is this policy consistent with the belief that abortion is exactly the same as child murder?

3. Is this policy consistent with wanting women who have sex to suffer consequences?

There are eight policies.

I very much doubt Akin "heard" anything directly from real doctors - especially gynecologists. If he had, he would have SAID gynecologists and even NAMED one (as opposed to those anti-abortion doctor/politicians from some years ago, whose only specialties were teeth and eyes) and been a lot more specific about the medical details, since he would have heard them directly - or at least read them from a real gynecology journal.

I always thought the idea was supposed to be that if a woman isn't ovulating at the time she's raped, chances are she doesn't have much vaginal lubrication (essential to sperm mobility) either, and so she'd have to be aroused and receptive in order to create the extra lubrication needed.

However, the following is confusing.

From the Washington Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/wp/2012/08/20/rep-todd-akin-is-wrong-about-rape-and-pregnancy-but-hes-not-alone/

.....Akin later issued an apology, saying he “misspoke” when he made an “off-the-cuff” remark. Empirical evidence suggests that he is indeed wrong: Research published in the Journal of American Obstetrics and Gynecology suggests over 30,000 pregnancies result from rape annually. “Rape-related pregnancy occurs with significant frequency,” the trio of researchers from the University of South Carolina concluded. “It is a cause of many unwanted pregnancies.”

A separate 2001 study – which used a sample of 405 rape victims between ages 12 and 45 – found that 6.4 percent became pregnant......

(snip)

The trouble is, is it so surprising that a 1-in-16 chance is considered "really rare"? WHY is the rate that low - though of course many of those women who didn't get pregnant may have used Plan B or may have been infertile before age 40?

Meanwhile, next door in Kansas...

GOP Representative goes skinny-dipping in the Sea of Galilee, thumper constituents go crazy trying to save Jesus's walkin' pond from teh blasfemee:

http://news.yahoo.com/republican-congressman-scolded-drinking-nudity-israel-022047815--abc-news-politics.html

The trouble is, is it so surprising that a 1-in-16 chance is considered "really rare"? WHY is the rate that low

Not surprising at all, I'd say. Women are typically only capable of conceiving for a few days each month. While sperm can live in the body for a couple of days after it's ejaculated, that only adds a couple of days to an egg's effective lifespan (plus, sperm takes a while to make it up the fallopian tube -- if you have sex a day after you ovulate, the egg may be un-fertilizable by the time it encounters sperm). If you assume that women aren't more likely to get raped during the most fertile time of their cycle, that would mean that the significant majority of women who are raped don't have a fertilizable egg around in the first place. Throw in the use of condoms by some rapists, the use of Plan B by some victims and infertility, and the 1-in-16 chance looks fairly reasonable.

Oh, and while rape victims may not be producing lubrication related to arousal, sperm is typically carried on its way by cervical mucus, which is totally independent of arousal or its lack thereof.

On a political note: Dude is toast, toast, toast. It's not just that he's coming across as a troglodyte -- he wasn't smart enough to anticipate a question that he was sure to receive. I predict they find a way to force him out and get the female candidate (sorry, can't remember her name at the moment) in instead. Boom, issue over.

Science on pregnancy and rape is here:

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/context-and-variation/2012/08/20/here-is-some-legitimate-science-on-pregnancy-and-rape/

Posted by: Amy Alkon at August 21, 2012 5:45 AM

Thanks. What really caught my eye was the fact that plenty of women who were raped just happened to be on the Pill or other long-term contraceptives already. Nothing surprising about that.

But, of course, had Akin tried to use THAT argument, he would only have been playing into the hands of the pro-birth-control crowd - something anti-abortion types will never do.

Unfortunately for Planned Parenthood, though, abortion will always be a Catch-22. That is, if everyone used birth control, there would be fewer abortions and thus more pressure to outlaw them, but when fewer people use BC, that includes women seeking abortions, of course, which pushes the stereotype of such women as irresponsible and undeserving. (Right now, from what I heard, about half of all women and girls who have abortions weren't using BC - and that number could easily be higher.)

So, just to clarify, it seems that the rate of pregnancy for consensual sex and rape is about the SAME - but if it's barely over 5% in both cases, that's mainly because of BC use and a woman's "safe" days - about 7-10 days per month. Take away the use of BC (including Plan B) and the odds are very much in favor of pregnancy.

Oh, and was this ever discussed here?

http://www.motherjones.com/mixed-media/2011/05/venn-diagram-rape-vs-flat-tire

Namely, when Kansas Republican Pete DeGraaf said that women should "plan ahead" for being raped and possibly impregnated against their will. (He compared being raped to getting a flat tire.)