If the liquor stores had refused to sell to Natives due to their alleged knowledge that "it would be smuggled to drink or resell" on the dry reservation, they'd have been accused of racism. Seriously, the tribe expects business owners to refuse to do business with Indians? How would they know whether or not that particular person is a tribal member? Based on looks? "You must be this pale to buy beer."

The easy availability of alcohol is not the reason alcoholics drink.

Beth: "You must be this pale to buy beer."

Kinda gives new meaning to "pale ale" doesn't it?

So everyone who refrains from bad habit X just has more self control? I don't know about you, but I don't experience the sensation of self-control at all when I refrain from drinking.

Not that this is directly relevant to the legal issue, but certainly to the moralizing tone. Do libertarians really believe people make choices in a vacuum and that a critical mass of individual choices can't hurt the people that "act responsibly", thus making it a public concern, especially when we have to act on the back end publically to mitigate the damage?

From the BBC article: "One in four children born on the reservation suffers fro foetal alcohol syndrome or foetal alcohol spectrum disorder"

To put that 1 in 4 stat in perspective, for the US as a whole there are 1 - 2 cases of FAD per 1000 live births and about 1 case of FASD per 100 live births:

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/974016-overview#a0199

It's no wonder that the Indians are trying to blame this horrifying situation on someone, anyone, other than themselves.

Deer Ogala Sioux

You could set up check points at the entry points of the reservation. It's tribal lands so you don't have to worry about the 4th amendment. Search for booze, and confiscate it. You can also do a DUI check to see if someone drank it all before coming home. Then you can seize their vehicle for a set time before giving it back.

As an alternative, you could purchase the liquor licenses in that town, and then just sit on them. Or maybe just sell non-alcoholic beer?

What happened to all you people who used to be so handsomely suspicious of government power?

Alcoholism is a wonderful way to keep this famously uppity population of 'minorities' in a posture of docile manageability.

Ok, crid, let the government ban booze. And smokes. And high fat foods. Someone, somewhere might be having fun! stop that!

Care to remind us how well things worked out the last time progressives managed to get booze banned? were there any...problems that cropped up unexpectedly?

Pretend it's a slam dunk, OK? Pretend that there's no shame or responsibility in the centuries-old wretchedness of the reservations –alcoholically, dietarily, intellectually, or in any other respect– for the nation built on their continent.

"famously uppity population of 'minorities' in a posture of docile manageability."

Having lived on a reservation near the subject one for 16 years, I can tell you if that were the intent it has been a complete failure.

And speaking of you racist fuckers and your fucking racist fuck fucks about race...

Can someone please explain to me why KitchenAid had twenty-four thousand followers before this crisis?...

…And why they have twenty-six thousand now?

"Wang, it's a parking lot."

Dood, it's a refrigerator. There's not going to be a lot fascinating nuggets of information about it over the weekend, OK?

How many twitter followers does lawn darts have? How about dental floss? How about chain link fences? There could be important news at any moment!

> if that were the intent it has been a complete failure.

We all appreciate the effort though, right? Like crack in the inner cities... We do what we can do

"Like crack in the inner cities..."

Not exactly. Crack keeps the blacks in their own areas. Indians will drive a long way to get booze. Smart business men put the stores just outside the the border of the Rez. Whites like it because it keeps the drunk Indians on the highways on the Rez. Only works on a closed Rez.

Seriously though, this was nothing but an attempt by tribal leaders to get more money from others to enrich themselves.

If the lawsuit did go through and did happen to win, I'd be willing to bet just who would get the award money and decide how it is spent - the "tribal" leaders. With just a few bucks, for appearance's sake only, thrown to the folks who this was claimed to be for.

Disbanding the reservation system should be the next step. Tribal leaders have failed their constituents and the government isn't helping anyone.

So everyone who refrains from bad habit X just has more self control?

Yep, I'm an addict, I come from a long line of functioning addicts. And as much as I want to get high and turn of my brain I refuse to allow myself to do so.

Addiction my be a disease for some people, but it is a disease you choose to inflict on yourself.

Now I will admit that is a fairly simplistic view of a far more complicated problem, but it is essentially true

Speaking as a racist fucker with his fucking racist fuck fucks about race...

If people want to drink themselves to death then i will let them; people have a right to be damnable fools.
Except for American Indians.
Because they are not people.
They are exotic pets.
Like pandas.
Who need your help.
Help, Crid, help!

Quickly, to the kitchen-aid-mobile!
(loads laser luger, hugs Heidi goodbye)

> Except for American Indians.
> Because they are not people.
> They are exotic pets.

Nuh-nuh-no, you are not that kind, you are not that decent, you are not that aware, you are not that just.

First, we're gonna need to see that you recognize the scope of the problem, and have thought about what it would mean if it were affecting any other segment of our society so horribly. Then, it will be fun to hear you say how this COULDN'T have happened without crushing government intervention in their lives for, like, two (maybe three) centuries.

I'm just glad that the liquor stores are as close to the reservations as they are. If they were 75 miles further into Nebraska, the death toll would be far higher. It would include all those unfortunate enough to encounter a drunken Oglala Sioux driving on the wrong side of the road, on the way back to the reservation, as Dave B said....

I have a friend who used to work as a nurse at a hospital near the reservation. She said she saw 25 year old women dying from liver failure on a regular basis. They were not binge drinkers, they were constant drinkers, and still are.

You can't save people from themselves, but you can do a lot of damage trying.

Crid- one argument against your argument is that given time, this Indian society would have stumbled onto alcohol. Any society that stores grain or comes upon rotting fruit experiences alcohol at some point. Given their genetic background, it's very possible their civilization would have simply disappeared.

Great Zappa vid, BTW. What was he here- 20?

Sorry, Eric - your theory is a little too simplified to be taken seriously.

PLEANTY of cultures have problems with alcohol - but look what is going on with the youth in the UK for example. Crid was it Prager or Darlymple that had some article you posted about the correlation between alcohol abuse and a society that has been so infantilized by government handouts and suffered the indignities of such dependencies is too large to ignore. Or something along those lines.

There is more than one aspect to this - but proximity and recent access to alcohol does not an alcoholic make.

Besides, many of these tribes weren't really novices (to follow your logic) around mind altering substances or encounters. Peyote, Sun Dances, Sweat Lodges, Fasting.... Seems they didn't suffer a severe imbalance until the government came in and really just obliterated their family and community structure and replaced it with ..... Government. That and outlawed their spiritual practices.

With a big wide open hole left there, alcohol seems like a likely substitute to fill it with....

Yeah, about 22. When his son was that age he was an MTV DJ, and he had a lot of very similar vocal patterns. I've heard that on tapes with my sister and her daughter too.

You're both right, the solution is is always an individual responsibility.

But I think this is a kissin' cousin' to the problem America has with obesity amongst the poor. Ag policy (and other policies) have GOT to be a factor in what's happening to these people. It's just not possible that so much sorrow would come to these populations otherwise.

And we should say that as regards fat people in the inner city, there are probably a lot of people who think they're being righteous and libertarian by saying 'they should be able to eat however they want,' as if their options were wide-open... As if it was some bold frontier of compassion from both the left and right. (See also, fatherlessness.)

Whereas out on the rez, it's easier to argue that nobody ever gave a fuck.

Yes yes yes I'm very libertarian.... But describing these nightmares as the outcomes of choices freely made is ridiculous on its face.

"Seems they didn't suffer a severe imbalance until the government came in and really just obliterated their family and community structure and replaced it with...Government. That and outlawed their spiritual practices"

Feebie, I don't know if you subscribe to National Geographic, but the August issue had a story on the Pine Ridge Reservation that covered a lot of that ground:

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2012/08/pine-ridge/fuller-text

"Disbanding the reservation system should be the next step. Tribal leaders have failed their constituents and the government isn't helping anyone."

What KateC said. The reservation system has been an absolute disaster and it's time to disband it. Divide the properties up and give title to the pieces to the individual residents. The Cherokees, to name one, never wanted a damn reservation anyway -- they wanted to assimilate and become citizens of the U.S. If we had let them, both they and us would have been better off.

What's that line I always hear? Oh yeah:

"If you dont want to assimilate into western culture go back to your own country."

Yeah Native Americas! Hear that! GO BACK TO WHERE YOU CAME FROM! Integrate motherfuckers!

I wish I could say I have like tons of Native blood in me so that could give me more authority-but even though I'm hispanic my ancestors were mostly dirty dirty Arabs.

However I do take responsibility for the fuck up world we've given Natives in all the Americas.

Hey um....we came to your country and totally took it so like you have two choices:

Be one of us or well plant you over in a reservation. You're an alcoholic and so is your whole community-well damn man take some personal responsibility. Lift your ass by your bootstraps or go back to where you came from you fucking faggots!

Okay, let this be simplified:

What is the moral duty of the enablers - the people who feed the addictions?

Somehow, if more drugs than alcohol and tobacco are made available, this level of destruction cannot happen. If your valedictorian daughter turns to crack, that's her concern only, right?

The drug dealer handing her cookie after cookie, as she hands over hundreds of dollars for each, is just "in business", right?

I have pointed out the folly of citing the "success" of repealing Prohibition as support for legalizing other drugs, and now this misery is pointed out right here. Thanks!

> I don't do drugs.

Your life is a tidy weave of familial and social relationships between well-settled, long-term thinkers who were free to move for long periods and short ones in pursuit of experiences (education, etc) to enhance their preparedness for lives of work and interaction with others.

That doesn't happen on the rez. It's not just about access to drugs.

> my ancestors were mostly dirty dirty Arabs

Those were some nasty people. What's it like? I read about them in a book. Or saw a Lean movie.

Also, half-Arab and half American Indian?

I bet you're a stone fox.

Not sure what the solution is here. If you make the border towns dry, the folks will just drive to the next town. Having a dry 100-mile radius around the reservation seems impractical. Besides, there's always moonshine.

If you want laws and things as a solution, they should be addressing the cause of the problem. The bars, while enabling, are not the cause. Yeah, its slimy to sell to alcoholics. But it's also unreasonable to expect bartenders to determine who is an addict and who is a social drinker.

I don't know. This is a depressing one.

What's the alcoholism rate like for whites in the border towns? My guess based on no scientific data whatsoever would be that it is pretty high, too.

Huh. According to google maps Whiteclay's entire economy is dependent on alcohol sales to the Sioux. That's fucked up.

I wanna talk about P-Pen's looks some more.

It is legal. It's still fucked up. They don't need to check because they know they are selling to alcoholics, its the whole reason they are there. So very fucked up.

I wonder if there'd be a market for a movie theatre or other dry entertainment venue. Do you think the people on the reservation are bored? (Yes I know that alcoholism is also caused by despair and economic conditions, but if boredom is a problem its more easily fixed.)

> In liquor stores in the rest of the country, we
> also don't have to check as to whether we're
> selling to an alcoholic.

We would if we were taking out such a distinct population.

If liquor stores in West LA were absolutely devastating several generations of Jewish people, or Catholics, while leaving everyone else feeling spry and healthy, things would change. Or if liquor stores in Orange County were so devastating to those of Middle Eastern heritage, something would be done.

But the Rez is America's way of saying 'you're on your own'.

Go too Google Earth, and survey a typical "reservation" from a height of, say, 30 thousand feet.

It may be fucked up, but it's legal.

Not for long. You know it's just a matter of time before it becomes "law" not to sell to them. And then we've got discrimination lawsuits. *le sigh*
Can't win for losing, it seems.

Familiarity breeds contempt. I got laughed at alot when I first moved to the rez - by both whites and Indians. I had great respect for Indians when I arrived - now, not so much. I sure don't know what would make things better. I never thought that I could understand where the concept of "only good indian, is a dead indian" would make any sense. Now, I see how people could arrive at that conclusion - sad, very sad.

Reservations are to Native Americans what Appalachia is to the Scotts Irish. I.E., they are the places where the unambitious, and mentally ill congregate because that is where the government handouts are directed. The reservation system itself is the enabler for the poor choices and the alcoholism.
Successful native Americans got out and integrated a long time ago, and still do.
My husband is part Choctaw. He does not drink period. I suspect it is because he watched his mother 1/4 Choctaw, and his grandfather, 1/2 Choctaw drink themselves to death.

There are a lot of people who refuse to let the disfunctional culture they come from be their destiny.

OK Dave! Tell us your story. What were you doing on the rez? I'm intrigued.

I look racially ambiguous Crid just like my parents. In my mothers side my grandma was half native American half Lebanese. My grandfather was a blonde green eyed Arab.

My father looks like a white pale middle eastern guy and my mom looks exactly like Lucy Lawless but with Halle Berrys skin color.

Since I have a generic first name and an ambiguous last name people make up their own ideas about my race or they tell me I just can't tell what you are.

> Reservations are to Native Americans what
> Appalachia is to the Scotts Irish.

See, that's my heritage. And as an unrepentant liberal, I was looking forward to this book by James Webb.

It doesn't mention alcohol.

When his senate career got weird a few years later, I decided he might have some gaps in his perception of human nature. He's not running for re-election this year.

Scotts Irish in the Appalachias are an interesting group. I remember reading about them alot as a kid.

I'm fascinated by southerners in the U.S. I dont know why but I find them quite fascinating.

Well, things got pretty weird for the cousins down in the holler, but up North we mutated into a sort of typically sketchy European snoot-beast, only with better skills for handling family secrets.

And of course, we got all the good-looking genes.

IOW, I think lsab was onto something with "Successful native Americans got out and integrated a long time ago, and still do."

They say this is what's happening in the Middle East as well. Boston's Tech Corridor and the Silicon Valley get all the ambitious geniuses; the people who move to Paris are the hillbillies. And the ones who stay....

Sooo... enablers have no moral duty?

I guess not!