Silly NYT Piece On The Supposed End Of Dating And What's Probably Going On
A silly lamentation on how all the boys want to do anymore is hook up, and all they'll do is text you to come hang with their friends -- no more asking women out on dates. Alex Williams writes in the NYT:
"At 10 p.m., I hadn't heard from him," said Ms. Silver, 30, who wore her favorite skinny black jeans. Finally, at 10:30, he sent a text message. "Hey, I'm at Pub & Kitchen, want to meet up for a drink or whatever?" he wrote, before adding, "I'm here with a bunch of friends from college."Turned off, she fired back a text message, politely declining. But in retrospect, she might have adjusted her expectations. "The word 'date' should almost be stricken from the dictionary," Ms. Silver said. "Dating culture has evolved to a cycle of text messages, each one requiring the code-breaking skills of a cold war spy to interpret."
"It's one step below a date, and one step above a high-five," she added. Dinner at a romantic new bistro? Forget it. Women in their 20s these days are lucky to get a last-minute text to tag along. Raised in the age of so-called "hookup culture," millennials -- who are reaching an age where they are starting to think about settling down -- are subverting the rules of courtship.
Instead of dinner-and-a-movie, which seems as obsolete as a rotary phone, they rendezvous over phone texts, Facebook posts, instant messages and other "non-dates" that are leaving a generation confused about how to land a boyfriend or girlfriend.
"The new date is 'hanging out,' " said Denise Hewett, 24, an associate television producer in Manhattan, who is currently developing a show about this frustrating new romantic landscape. As one male friend recently told her: "I don't like to take girls out. I like to have them join in on what I'm doing -- going to an event, a concert."
...Hookups may be fine for college students, but what about after, when they start to build an adult life? The problem is that "young people today don't know how to get out of hookup culture," Ms. Freitas said. In interviews with students, many graduating seniors did not know the first thing about the basic mechanics of a traditional date. "They're wondering, 'If you like someone, how would you walk up to them? What would you say? What words would you use?' " Ms. Freitas said.
That may explain why "dates" among 20-somethings resemble college hookups, only without the dorms.
Actually, it doesn't. It explains "dates" amongst 20-somethings in New York.
University of New Mexico evolutionary psychologist Geoffrey Miller (@matingmind) explained on his Facebook page:
Yet another NY Times writer complains that in New York, with a highly female-biased sex ratio among singles, males exert little mating effort. Reminds me what my dad said: "There are only two concepts you really need from economics: supply and demand."
And my thought on it:
The truth is, when men become ready for committed relationships (when they outgrow the hookup phase) they will act accordingly. Men who are looking to get married and have a baby will not text a woman to come hang with the gang at some bar.
Supply and demand, if women are willing to 'hook up' when at their hottest for damn near free why would I enter into relationship where an older woman viewing me as a perspective mate is going to want me to spend close to a grand before letting me touch her tits?
Not to sound crass, but as I dont want kids and wont get married under the current legal scheme, the odds of me finding a long term partner is exceedingly slim
lujlp at January 13, 2013 7:04 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2013/01/13/silly_nyt_piece.html#comment-3552559">comment from lujlpNot to sound crass, but as I dont want kids and wont get married under the current legal scheme, the odds of me finding a long term partner is exceedingly slim
I didn't want to get married or have kids, and for some men, that was a dealbreaker.
I also wanted a man who was ethical, among other things, and I'm a bit much to take for a lot of men.
It took me a while, but I found one. Unless you want to start a harem (or whatever the male-populated equivalent would be) it just takes one.
And guys who want a woman who doesn't want kids and doesn't need to get married should look at women who are very career-driven and passionate about and happy with what they do. This means that their career will come first, but that also means that you won't have some needy Nancy always clawing at you.
On the other hand, other than a monthly event I go to that we attended on Friday, and needing to go get my mammogram reshot (grrr!) on Wednesday, I haven't left the house except to take Lucy down the steps since last Saturday. If Gregg didn't come over a few nights a week to make me happy and feed me, my refrigerator would be bare and my mail would remain in my mailbox (I don't get mail at home).
Amy Alkon at January 13, 2013 7:17 AM
"Men who are looking to get married and have a baby will not text a woman to come hang with the gang at some bar."
Yup. And what's wrong with that anyways? I love doing that. Hanging out with a bunch of straight guys at a bar is fun.
Basically it's because some women want to force men into the big R (relationship).
When I go out with my desperate for the big R female or male friends they get nada. I used to consistently get tons of guys asking me out. Why? Because I don't read of desperation. I'm a fun playful drunk!
If you want to settle down and have kids look for the right person and don't expect everyone is looking/ dreaming for the same thing. You can't force a lifetime commitment on people.
Purple pen at January 13, 2013 8:42 AM
P.S. I'm in my late 20's and guys take me on proper dates all the time.
Purplepen at January 13, 2013 8:45 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2013/01/13/silly_nyt_piece.html#comment-3552644">comment from Purple penI'm with you. I also think it's easier to be yourself when in a group.
Amy Alkon at January 13, 2013 8:58 AM
I'd like to think I'm an ethical person, and most of my aquaintences if asked would probably say I am
I certainly dont claim to be a moral person under the current judeo christian scheme.
And while I've got the sex drive to keep up with small harem, I doubt I'd ever find 2-6 girls cool enough for such a situation without brain washing, and its far too much of a hassle to start a cult for just sex
lujlp at January 13, 2013 9:04 AM
This isn't new. We've all heard for years that the best way to find a partner isn't to wait for someone to ask you out, but to do the things you like to do. Eventually, you'll keep running into someone who likes the same things you do, and if there's chemistry, you start doing those things together. I'd say if a guy asks a girl to come and hang out with his friends, it's a pretty good indication that he likes her. It's not same thing as a text asking a girl to come to his house, which is what a guy would do if he just wants to hook up.
Boldly Beth at January 13, 2013 9:12 AM
As a guy who went from preferring asking women out on traditional dates to preferring to text them at the last minute for drinks, there's one obvious reason why that this article is completely ignoring: the rampant flaking on dates among this generation of women.
I'd guess that I got flaked on about half the time. Sometimes I'd get advanced notice. More often I'd show up for dinner or drinks, text them after 15-20 minutes, and get an "I forgot" in response. One woman flaked twice in advance claiming family issues, then about half an hour before a Valentine's date at a nice restaurant claimed she had to go visit her dying grandfather. What shows up on Facebook the next day? Pictures of her out with friends getting trashed, with them commenting about how fun "last night" was. It's not even that she wasn't interested in me, she spent months after trying to get me back. But something that seemed more interesting came up, so our date got cancelled for that with a ridiculous excuse.
Then add onto that the huge number of women who seemed to be using me for free dinners. There was always a second date, but a large chunk of women suddenly dropping away just before date three.
At some point I recognized that there's just no point taking a woman out on a date unless you're already sleeping with her. Why waste my time planning a nice dinner with someone when the odds are I'm going to be eating alone? Why spend a bunch of money on someone when the odds are she already knows she's not interested and is just stringing me along?
If I text a woman saying "I'm out with friends at X bar, come hang out," then what's the loss to me? I'm already doing what I would be doing anyway. If she shows, great. If she doesn't, I'm not sitting around alone waiting for her to tell me she's not coming. And the closer I wait to the time I want to meet up, the less chance something else more interesting is going to come up to ditch me for.
At the end of the day, you can't expect just one gender to follow the rules. If women want to treat dates they agree to as tentative pending nothing better coming along, don't expect men to play along.
mm2003 at January 13, 2013 9:43 AM
Don't see what the fuss is about. If a guy invites you to go and hang out with his buddies, one of those buddies might be a better prospect than the original inviter.
As for the rest, this is what feminism has accomplished: men are evil, men are the enemy, men aren't to be trusted, the patriarchy is oppressing women, women deserve preferentiual treatment, women get the benefit of the doubt, after-sex regret can be transformed into rape, blah blah blah etc. Women can have sex anytime they feel like it, can indulge in immoral behavior on national TV (e.g. Sandra Fluke), and in short, can behave exactly like they imagine men behave. That mindset has become enshrined in state and federal law, and in institutional regulation (e.g. at college). Now the rules of the game all favor women.
So men refuse to play that game anymore, have altered the game to suit themselves, and all of a sudden everyone's getting upset about it. my question: what did everyone think was going to happen? Did feminists and their camp followers think that men were just going to roll over and take all that?
Men have discovered that the benefits of marriage (heck, even of a long-term relationship) are far outweighed by the negative consequences attached to the failure thereof, so: men don't want to get married anymore, and instead they satisfy themselves with their buddies, their games, their online porn and the occasional hookup with a willing-but-stupid woman. A -> B -> C.
I hope the feminists are happy and contented now.
Kim du Toit at January 13, 2013 10:24 AM
It took me a while, but I found one. Unless you want to start a harem (or whatever the male-populated equivalent would be) it just takes one.
They're called "Beta Orbiters".
Dr. Kenneth Noisewater at January 13, 2013 10:24 AM
It's a culture thing, the feminists finally got what they thought they wanted, to be treated just like one of the guys. It's not so great after all, is it.
Forrest at January 13, 2013 10:45 AM
"...Hookups may be fine for college students, but what about after, when they start to build an adult life?"
um, yeah, college students are adults, and this infantilization of adults is part of the problem with understanding.
Time was that dating was a late highschool thing, and college [or that age range] was for finding a mate. So the dating there was with purpose.
The relaxation of ALL the rules, based on the change in technology, changes the RULES.
They ain't going back, and this is related to the inherent instantaneousnes and living in the now of new life.
or does anyone suppose that we are eventually going to burn all our iPhones, and stop checking facebook incessantly?
The next new thing will be the next new thing. It's just that this generation is finally figuring out that the rules of relationships have changed a bunch since the 60's...
When the yoke of what was thought to be tradition was thrown off, there wasn't much thought to new rules... because of course this was an organic thing that was made up by individuals along the way.
Now that it has been realized that is was not only 'tradition' but also instinct... the rules still seem bad, but hard to ignore... and new rules still are not forthcoming because they are going against instinct.
That is to say, men search for a good childbearer based on her looks, and women search for a good provider based on his looks and provider signals.
There are myriad ways that we try and short circuit that. And it has gotten faster and more pronounced now that technology makes the cultural trappings instant. It is said that the dicision of suitability is a split second one, as evolution dictates [ie. only by looks] but we long ago made cultural constructs to not only enhance long term suitability, but also to lock one person in with one person... else Alphas would always have harems, and everyone else would always be at war. But that was thousands of years ago.
Throw those ideas out, throw the idea out that one purpose of your life is to push the survival of your genes and the species by having children, become completely narcissistic about doing your own thing, and?
Men are all for hooking up, and women are always chasing the most alpha they can find.
There is going to be an ever diminishing pool of guys interested in the long term relationship, as it's too much trouble for the ROI, and women aren't going to figure that out till it's way too late. Because they themselves don't want anything long term, till they do, and they are often in their 30's by then.
This may lead us back to a time when younger women looked to older, settled and established men to pair with... or something entirely different. Who knows?
The hooking up culture lament is simply a case of Getting MORE of what you reward. Couple that with discarding social rules that had a purpose, and not making any new ones?
What'dja expect? This may bee a New York thing, but I guarundamtee it goes on everywhere to some degree...
SwissArmyD at January 13, 2013 10:46 AM
What's wrong with socializing with a group of friends to acquire some introductions? Isn't it better to meet in a group where the individuals you will encounter are known to some of your co-workers, or fellow church-goers, or fellow Sierra Club hikers? If a guy you meet is interesting, you don't have to wait until Sadie Hawkins day any more to ask him out. Don't expect the guy to pay for everything, you probably make more than he does.
There's another problem. College enrollment is now skewed 70/30 in favor of women at some institutions. Statistically, these ladies are simply not all going to be able to find male college graduates to marry. They're just not going to be there any more.
Also, younger men typically have no special interest in having children immediately. They will have friends who were deceived into a relationship for the purpose of pregnancy and who are now paying for child care. So you shouldn't wonder why they run screaming out of the room at any hint of manipulation.
wGraves at January 13, 2013 10:47 AM
It's actually surprisingly difficult to get a girl to commit in advance to a formal date like a dinner and a movie. Maybe it's too intimidating, maybe there's some message of sexual interest that women don't want to send too early. Whatever it is, women just don't respond well. They'll veto the day but not suggest alternatives. They'll say yes conditionally, but say they're "really busy." Or they'll say yes and bow out at the last second. Obviously some of these girls aren't that interested in the first place, but isn't that what you're supposed to find out on the first date?
The big advantage of informal and impromptu meetups is that women will actually show up. Nowadays, the first date is something you have to graduate to.
Zach at January 13, 2013 10:59 AM
I would echo SwissArmyD's sentiment.
A narcissistic culture that now needs instant gratification with a short attention span bourne of technology and rejection of rules for behavior is what we see demonstrated.
When you removed the personal nature of communicating with people, you also remove the things that made communicating enjoyable.
It seems nowadays that kids, I infantalize them because they behave in an infantile manner, are only concerned about getting an update on facebook or someone liking one of their posts. Like one of those crack addict rat specimens continually mashing the lever for another piece of crack.
Of course I say this on an internet forum. Oh the irony...
Azenogoth at January 13, 2013 11:47 AM
SwissArmyD said
The relaxation of ALL the rules, based on the change in technology, changes the RULES.
___________________________
Not really. There's a very strong backlash against using cell phones anytime, anyplace. Even in Greyhound buses. Technology doesn't get to decide what's polite and what isn't. Calling someone at the last minute, at the least, is likely to get the response "oh, that's nice, but I made plans elsewhere already." Whether that's true or not.
___________________________
They ain't going back, and this is related to the inherent instantaneousnes and living in the now of new life.
or does anyone suppose that we are eventually going to burn all our iPhones, and stop checking facebook incessantly?
__________________________
Well, there's no shortage of Facebook haters. And just because texting and Twittering are all the rage right now doesn't mean the older generations are willing to get sucked in - or even that the young ones won't get tired of their peers' short attention spans.
If someone wants to contact me, I have my phone and my email - and even if I carried my phone, I'd have to turn it off quite often, like most people. People have plenty of reasons not to answer immediately even when a phone is set to vibrate. Unless you're paying someone to be on 24-hour-call, don't be surprised by that.
lenona at January 13, 2013 11:58 AM
Old saying (more or less): Why buy the cow when she gives you milk for free.
Why the whining about the guy who texts a chick to come along with the guys? For a woman, her social network is what determines the worth of the guy. If they like him, she can date him. If they don't, then she can't. Whether or not that is BS I don't know, I read it on a chick mag website. Go figure.
tim s at January 13, 2013 12:29 PM
Isn't the whole idea behind It’s Just Lunch a casual meeting?
Jim P. at January 13, 2013 1:10 PM
Lenona, next time you are at a movie or a bar, peoplewatch the 20somethings... they don't turn their phones off, and I live in flyover country.
Interestingly, I've had a couple of my younger frineds lament that they had so many choices of what was going on on saturday night, they couldn't decide. Another went to a great deal of trouble to set up a party... aand everyone bailed, to devastating effect.
It's hard to decide what to eat when everything on the menu looks amazing...
SwissArmyD at January 13, 2013 1:33 PM
I never understood why men so easily forked over $$$ on dates with near strangers. Proud to have been a cheap date throughout my youth: if we can't have a fun conversation over a cup of coffee (I'll even pay for my own)- I never saw the point of taking it further.
The only purpose I can see for the formal "date" is to get a clue about how a guy handles money. But you can get that info in other ways.
ALP at January 13, 2013 2:05 PM
I went to see my Uke teacher play a show the other night where a 20-something guy let me share his table. At a break one of his friends joined and complained about the date he had the night before.
He thought it went well enough, but he hadn't texted her that day. Then she texted him and they exchanged texts until he suggested they hang out in the next couple days. "She never texted me back. I know she got it. What's up with that?" "Girls are weird".
I guess for today's Romantic Comedy instead of the heroine complaining to the sassy best friend "I know he got my message, so why isn't he calling?" it'd now be Texting Guy.
rosalind at January 13, 2013 3:49 PM
"Hanging out" is what we used to when we were kids after school-- unstructured time together, with no agenda or expectations, other than simple enjoyment... I like it.
"Dating" is what we do AFTER we've achieved relationship status. It's our way of showing our appreciation for what we bring to each others' lives.
In my experience, dating never works as a mean of initiating relationship+sex. In fact, the sex often comes first...
jefe at January 13, 2013 5:50 PM
I guess I'm dated, but If I've not had at least a one-to-one with the guy, (drink, whatever), I'm not ready to meet their friends and family. For one thing, it divides my attention too much. Meeting friends and family of my prospective partner is stressful enough without the worry of doing it before my date and I have determined whether we are interested in further exploration. Also, if family and friends are sprung on me (this has happened), and it's not just coincidence, I start questioning his level of independence.
Meloni at January 13, 2013 6:28 PM
"And while I've got the sex drive to keep up with small harem, I doubt I'd ever find 2-6 girls cool enough for such a situation without brain washing, and its far too much of a hassle to start a cult for just sex"
While you've done pretty well with this sentence, I imagine your mass SMS text message: "Hey ladies, let's fcuk!"
You know it'd happen.
Radwaste at January 13, 2013 7:02 PM
Women:
You will get dates, if you more or less guarantee some "real romping in the sack when you get back."
Money it tight. No man wants to waste money.
Otherwise, tweetybird around the clubs with the pack.
The Real Man at January 13, 2013 9:02 PM
You know Rad, it took me re reading your post after ten minutes to realised you were making fun of my spelling.
Until I caught onto the fact that you misspelled fuck I couldnt understand why you thought I'd write it in the first place or what the hell the last paragraph meant.
Had you been a little more devious you could've added a extra 'd' to ladies
lujlp at January 13, 2013 9:13 PM
Well, the last few years I have lived in the opposite when it comes to NYC. Lots more men then women (in my age group at least). I see this behavior all the way up into the 30s too.
Actually I see this in general. People don't make plans - and I mean just plain old friends - everything is last minute. The friends I made at my new job (mostly 20 somethings) often times would make plans by sending an email out Friday saying something like - "heh this looks cool, anyone want to meet up for it on Sat night?"
I think the conventional thing just doesn't work well for guys. Around 50% of women cancel on me in the last 24 hours (though I have only totally been stood a few times). They guy is expect to pay. I think alot are as much looking for free food & entertainment...whenever I have suggested something low cost she is busy...and then it seems like after 2 or 3 dates some reason pops up for no more dates - but the reason given (if not generic) is something she knew on date 1 or even in my online profile.
As a guy who does not want kids and is not interested in raising someone else's kids my options are quite limited -- the women (at least where I have lived) who meet that criterion are quite rare and in high demand.
The Former Banker at January 13, 2013 10:01 PM
If someone wants to contact me, I have my phone and my email - and even if I carried my phone, I'd have to turn it off quite often, like most people. - lenona
I can't think of anyone in the under 65 crowd that often turns their phone off. Especially in the dating crowd.
The Former Banker at January 13, 2013 10:05 PM
This whole thing is hilarious. It's not like a newspaper is going to tell people how to get together.
And luj, you'll have a fine time in most American bergs, because lots of people want to play in groups, and they don't care how you spell. Just advertise. They'll find out you usually know what you're talking about, as I have, and then the spelling thing is just funny.
Radwaste at January 14, 2013 12:12 AM
It's actually surprisingly difficult to get a girl to commit in advance to a formal date like a dinner and a movie.
I agree with Zach and the Former Banker. Women are pretty much getting what they asked for. I've run into a rash (no, not that kind)of women over the last couple of years who will act interested, catch up a few times - and I'm starting to regard the phrase 'let's catch up' as a red flag - then just stop phoning without telling you. Then apparently it's bad to send them an annoyed text six weeks later saying "you could have told me" (I'm not losing anything by doing that, and I won't take that sort of rude behaviour anymore). It's not like I call or text every day. Trying to balance showing interest with not scaring non-committal people off seems to be impossible these days.
So why would any guy ask women out on actual dates? I'd love too, but it seems to put them off...
Ltw at January 14, 2013 12:31 AM
I've been out of the dating loop for 20-odd years now, but I can definitely relate to the being-stood-up thing. IIRC my record was six in a row (all different women). I also got ditched several times.
What broke me out of that loop was signing up for an expensive dating service. Believe it or not, I think the "expensive" bit was key. Not that you really got any exceptional services for your money -- it wasn't a matchmaking service, just a pretty ordinary video dating place in the pre-Internet days. However, the cost discouraged lookie-lus and players, and I think that made a big difference.
Cousin Dave at January 14, 2013 6:39 AM
Women:
You will get dates, if you more or less guarantee some "real romping in the sack when you get back."
Money it tight. No man wants to waste money.
Posted by: The Real Man at January 13, 2013 9:02 PM
___________________________________
Which is why I would recommend that women start a trend of refusing to let men spend any more on them than they want to spend on the men. (Yeah, I know - fat chance.) Even if that means nothing but cups of coffee for a couple of weeks.
As I mentioned last year, you can't expect anyone to want to marry you after just three dates or even three months, so don't let yourself be put off by someone who doesn't want to sleep with you that early either. Of course, you have every right to be put off by someone who doesn't reciprocate financially - but if you really want full financial reciprocity, don't make $200 dates the norm, for crying out loud! Yes, the other person should have the grace to refuse such extravagant generosity in the first place, but it won't always happen. There's nothing rude about carefully testing her pattern of reciprocity before being willing to treat her to dinner and not just coffee. Besides, any reader of "The Complete Tightwad Gazette" will tell you that there's usually no shortage of fun, free things to do if you look hard enough and stop being embarrassed about being frugal in general. Not to mention, how is a home-cooked picnic not romantic, if done right?
___________________________________
As a guy who does not want kids and is not interested in raising someone else's kids my options are quite limited -- the women (at least where I have lived) who meet that criterion are quite rare and in high demand.
Posted by: The Former Banker at January 13, 2013 10:01 PM
_____________________________________
Funny, I've never heard childfree (CF) women say they find it easy to find men who don't want children. Some do find them, of course, but plenty of women complain about being hounded online, not just by divorced fathers, but childless men hungry for fatherhood.
lenona at January 14, 2013 8:04 AM
This isn't a problem with women dating. It's a problem with socialization in general. It's impossible to get anyone to commit to anything. I threw a party recently and had to track down 2/3 of the guest list for a response. Some people never responded but came anyway. Some people said they were coming but never showed up, with lame excuses later. If I send mail invitations, people say they don't check their mail. Others say they don't check their email, so sending evites is pointless, too. Or they consider parties an open house where they can come if they they feel like it. It's maddening.
I remind myself that this is maddening because I'm older. Young people might be just fine with it. But most of my friends are in my age group, so I'm not sure what makes them think this is OK.
You will get dates, if you more or less guarantee some "real romping in the sack when you get back."
True, except for when it's not, like for the countless friends I have who won't put out immediately but have still found happy, long-term relationships.
MonicaP at January 14, 2013 9:46 AM
If the gist of the article is accurate (and since it appeared in the "New York State-Shtupper" (aka the New York Times, I have a default skepticism on it), all I can say is, "Thank God." Dating to me is about as fun as dental surgery.
Bilwick at January 14, 2013 12:55 PM
At least the dentist gives you pain pills.
Meloni at January 14, 2013 5:12 PM
Isn't the whole idea behind It’s Just Lunch a casual meeting?
Well, that's part of the idea. The other part is for the people behind It's Just Lunch to make a lot of money.
JD at January 14, 2013 5:22 PM
...in New York, with a highly female-biased sex ratio among singles...
I've heard/read that about New York before.
Women in New York should consider moving to Seattle. The ratio seems to be the opposite here. Almost everywhere you go in public, at almost every event*, there are more men than women.
*possible exception: a concert by Melisaa Etheridge, k.d. lang and the Indigo Girls.
JD at January 14, 2013 5:29 PM
ALP: Proud to have been a cheap date throughout my youth: if we can't have a fun conversation over a cup of coffee (I'll even pay for my own)- I never saw the point of taking it further.
Always nice to see a woman who doesn't judge a man by how much money he spends on a date.
JD at January 14, 2013 5:34 PM
"They ain't going back" This is surely the silliest vanity of our age: We assume that the latest fad is the wave of the future. Any trend that has been going on for the last five years will obviously and inevitably continue for the next hundred.
In real life, these trends go back and forth all the time. In the 1920s, "Free Love" was all the rage. The first pornographic movies were made in the 20s. By the 50s there was a decided shift to monogamy and courtship. By the 70s it had gone back to free love, probably somewhat of a swing back in the 80s, and now we're into hook-up culture. An easy prediction to make is that in another 20 or 30 years we'll swing back to monogamy.
Sure, cell phones make it easy for one person to contact another and say, "Hey, want to hang out with me and my friends?" But if this has become the norm -- and I don't know any statistics, just going by the article -- I sincerely doubt that the existence of cell phones is even an important factor. How much harder was it in the 1950s when you had to call on a land-line phone? You'd miss people if they weren't home, but if they're already out somewhere, they're probably busy anyway. I'm told that in the 40s and 50s it was not uncommon for a guy to drive by a girl's house on his way to meet up with his buddies and ask if she wanted to go along. Someone in the 1800s could surely have stopped by a girl's house while riding his horse to the saloon to meet his buddies. If it wasn't done, the reason was more social than technological.
jay at January 14, 2013 9:19 PM
Someone in the 1800s could surely have stopped by a girl's house while riding his horse to the saloon to meet his buddies. If it wasn't done, the reason was more social than technological.
Posted by: jay at January 14, 2013 9:19 PM
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Er, exactly. I find it hard to imagine that any 19th-century girl in her teens living with her parents would be allowed to go to a saloon!
It reminds me of what Michael Dorris said in the book "The Broken Cord" - that the main reason doctors and scientists didn't figure out until 1980 or so that pregnant women really, REALLY shouldn't drink alcohol was that there were so many taboos against women drinking in general - all around the world. (However, a recent cover story in Boston Magazine suggested that only alcoholics are likely to have a baby with FAS or even FAE - that would explain why most of us are more likely to know a person of ANY age with Down Syndrome than a person with FAS.)
lenona at January 15, 2013 10:28 AM
I think people who want to be childfree long term are the minority. I know the cliche is that women want to get married and have kids and have to con men into it, but fact is most guys aren't these crazy players getting mad pussy every weekend (or even trying to), and do want to settle down. It's more a question of timing than anything else. Which is why CF folks of either gender are going to have a harder time finding someone... most people want kids.
A lot of people say they don't want kids for various reason: they don't want to scare someone off early on, they aren't ready just yet, etc. But most people want kids. So the real CF people have to weed out the fake ones.
I have lots of single friends who think if they play it cool and pretend they don't want to get married, they will meet a guy and get married. They feel bringing up the subject is putting too much pressure on the guy and will scare him off, but if they pretend its not what they want he will come around and want to marry them. To these girls I say... WTF?
Guys who want to get married are not scared off by girls who want to get married. If your guy is scared off... he never wanted to get married to begin with. Be glad he's gone and find someone who does want to settle.
And the surplus women in NYC making it hard to date... how much of this is a myth? Because the population is something like 8.2 million. The surplus is something like 200k? 200k/8.2 million is .024, or 2.4%. OK, it is a bit more than the 1.6% difference nationwide, but not hugely. I'd bet most of those women are over 80.
NicoleK at January 17, 2013 11:27 AM
I have lots of single friends who think if they play it cool and pretend they don't want to get married, they will meet a guy and get married. They feel bringing up the subject is putting too much pressure on the guy and will scare him off, but if they pretend its not what they want he will come around and want to marry them. To these girls I say... WTF?
Guys who want to get married are not scared off by girls who want to get married. If your guy is scared off... he never wanted to get married to begin with. Be glad he's gone and find someone who does want to settle.
Posted by: NicoleK at January 17, 2013 11:27 AM
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Well, of course there's no good reason to LIE about wanting or not wanting to get married. If you might change your mind, though, there's also no point in pigeonholing yourself by saying one thing or the other.
However, as has been discussed here previously, it IS possible to scare off decent young men who just might come to see things your way with the right handling. (After all, what 20-year-old man is eager to get married ASAP?) E.g., do not bluntly announce to a man that you're a virgin and are holding out for a marriage proposal - but since you're likely to be in the minority, you still have to drop gentle hints as to what your principles are if you don't want him to misunderstand and think your polite refusals are your cowardly way of trying to get rid of him.
lenona at January 17, 2013 1:48 PM
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