My problem isn't with Asian Americans getting into the top schools. They should not be discriminated against.

My problem is with foreign Asians (i.e. going back to their respective countries) taking over our hard science PhD programs that are funded through government grants.

Look I love Asians (and I am excluding American Asians because they do not hold this view at all) but they are extremely racist. So when they come and study here hard PhD science stuff they stick together according to their country and the foreign professors actively discriminate Americans and other people not from their country. They form these "clicks" with their professors.

We are actively paying foreign students and professors to learn our stuff for the greater good of their country (usually China) and then go back because we do not have Americans getting hard PhD's anymore. Sorry all our children are getting PhD'sin philosophy.

How do I know this? Saw this first hand what a couple of my friends had to go through to get their real PhD's.

I've also been to Asia several times to know how incredibly racist they are against people they view as inferior. I've always been lucky because I look white enough but good luck if you look "inferior" ( dark Asian, black, Hispanic etc).

Oh and if you are a blond man with blue eyes expect 5 star treatment.

And one more thing most of these foreign students do not want to stay here but go back. They view this place as some sort of Vegas vacation.

They want to live their traditional lives back in their home country and are not actively seeking to make friends with "others".

Asian Americans are NOTHING like this btw.

Race should be irrelevant. Simply said and - frankly - simply done.

Any college or university that can be shown biasing results based on race should be slapped down, hard. To avoid any accusation of racism, they should define simple, objective admissions standards, for example, a minimum GPA plus SAT scores. If they have too many applicants who meet the published criteria, then they should have a defined tie-breaking mechanism: date of application, random lottery, or whatever.

Too many schools want to know what extracurricular activities you did. Or want an essay. Or want a handwritten resumé. This kind of stuff is irrelevant to your academic ability, and is really just an opportunity for the admissions office to play favorites based on unstated criteria like race and gender.

I sense Ppen's frustration, but consider this. These programs are not discriminating against Americans as much as Americans are turning away from them. My daughter is a PhD candidate in a STEM field at a public University and most of her peers are Chinese. They tend to do the work and get the degrees. They have to return to China for at least two years because the Chinese government pays for their education. This program would be in trouble without that funding.

The opportunities are there, for those who meet the requirements and do the work. My daughter probably spends 60 hours per week or more studying and in the lab. She's smart, not brilliant, but she out works her peers. The other American in her class transferred to dental school before he even finished his Masters.

Ppen, do you actually know any foreign Asian PhD's? It may be different in fields that have larger foreign enrollment, but in my neck of the woods (astrophysics) your picture doesn't match my experience. It sounds dated to me. The Chinese astronomers I've worked with have split down the middle on staying in the U.S. vs. moving back to China. Most of them speak better English than your average American.

And let me tell you, if we don't get money from Japan, China, India, and Korea (all of whom are spending like gangbusters right now), we will not be able to build the next set of telescopes we need. Large telescopes are too expensive--international collaboration is the way of the future. And it's much easier to collaborate with people you've studied with and worked with, all of which the U.S. PhD education system fosters.

"Too many schools want to know what extracurricular activities you did. Or want an essay. Or want a handwritten resumé. This kind of stuff is irrelevant to your academic ability,..."

Oh, sure.

If I was a loner, who has no idea that an essay is a particular kind of paper, who copied their resumé from an Internet farm or had a friend do it, that would be a great indication the college isn't wasting a seat.

Hey, by many indications, college attendance is artificially high as colleges offer nonsense courses in order to get money. How can you have this both ways?

"It is noteworthy that many high-achieving kids at selective public magnet schools are children of working-class immigrants, not well-educated professionals. "

The thing that amazes me most about the whole topic is that nobody ever seems to ask why this is.

Caltech stopped accepting Chinese nationals to a number of programs, due to the state-condoned cheating that's rampant in the schools that groom kids to go to college abroad. Asian-Americans have a real disadvantage, esp. here in California, when applying to the UC system.

"My problem is with foreign Asians (i.e. going back to their respective countries) taking over our hard science PhD programs that are funded through government grants."

For those of you disputing Ppen, this is common enough and troublesome enough that it is recognized as a national security issue. When we say "Asian" foreign students in this context, we really mean Chinese. What is happening is a form of technology transfer, and a lot of the technology is sensitive.

Astra,

It definitely depends on the field. People that want to stay here are totally different animal altogether.

Like I've said I've been to Asia numerous times to know the know environment. Koreans tend to be the worst when it comes to race.

Remember they do hold outdated social norms. One of my friends in Japan had a Chinese landlord in the middle of the bustling city and his whole building was empty. Why? The rent was cheap, the building was nice but no Japanese person would rent from a Chinese guy.

Don't think Chinese are any better. If you are a darkie Asian good luck not being treated like pure shit in any Asian country.

Btw funnily enough if you are a pale blonde white guy with colored eyes expect to be treated like you are a god.

There is an amazing array of accents at my kids selective charter school. About the only accent you don't hear is ebonics. There are planty of black kids there, but they are largely first generation african immigrants. One of my daughters' friends' family just moved here from India 2 years ago. Her parents were an arranged marriage, her mom doesn't drive, but they're getting their daughter a good education.

Ability should be the only criteria for entrance into any academic program or job.

I suspect the horse is out of the barn with regards to China. My daughter's professor is a naturalized American citizen from China, and as close as it comes to a rock star in his field. Who is beholden to whom?

He is inventing technology that is helping all of us. This field has nothing to do with national security, so rest easy. Some times we win one.

I am under no illusions regarding the prejudices of some Asians. Mrs D is from Japan and I know where I fit in their social heirarchy - namely below nearly any Japanese (possible exceptions being criminals and burakumin), ahead of Koreans, Filipinos and blacks, possibly on an equal footing with Chinese, although who knows with those troubles over the Senkaku Islands? I know the difference between tolerance and acceptance, and i know enough of the language and customs to know where I stand and with whom.

None of us can change that, but how do we win by being just as prejudiced and closed-minded as the worst?

Some of those Chinese students like how they are accepted here and want to come back, or stay. I see that as good thing.

Yes, the favorable prejudice about blue eyes is real. :-) Well, at least it was, long ago, in the country that used to be Japan.

Some of those Chinese students like how they are accepted here and want to come back, or stay. I see that as good thing. -- MarkD at January 14, 2013 11:35 AM

I think that any foreign student that gets a masters or PhD in a STEM or medicine should have a green card application stapled to their diploma.

" but they are largely first generation african immigrants."

Black Africans (especially Nigerians) are notoriously very educationally minded. These people bust their asses to become doctors. Funny enough they hate black Americans for various reasons (education, the fact that they are descendants from slaves, culture etc.).

Don't ever let people fool you into thinking any one group of people "stick together". I've been to various places and know that Americans are the most tolerant group of individuals. Really nice and welcoming and whenever I hear someone complain about racism here I chuckle. Not to say it does not exist but damn it's nice to know I am not a second class citizen simply because I'm me ya know?

"Mrs D is from Japan"

The women there are very very very beautiful, I was pleasantly surprised just how well they maintain themselves.

Amy talks about women in France being well dressed...well these Japanese bitches be climbing mountains in big ass HIGH HEELS, short skirts and being all dressed up to go look at some temples with their boyfriends on top of mountains.

Who does that? That's right only Japanese women.

well, if you stopped discriminating on race, then you would have to stop discriminating on race. How would you balance out your other races?

If you make this all about academics, who stands to lose the most? There's your 6' Pookah in the room. Asians are taking the hit for the social engineering happening at the other end of the achievement spectrum...

and the WHOLE thing distorts what learning is about.

I went to MIT, I'm an Asian American, and I am somewhat familiar with MIT's admission policies.

First of all, admissions policies at MIT for undergraduates vs graduate students are completely different. MIT (and most Ivy-quality schools) expressly want diversity in their undergraduate students. Otherwise every undergraduate is a valedictorian, straight-A, 2300-2400 SAT nerd. That makes the campus boring. And having exprienced the result of having that diversity, I agree with the policy. Even though there were (and are) plenty of nerds at MIT, there are enough other students to make campus life vibrant, energetic, and stimulating.

To be clear, *nobody* admitted to MIT is unqualified. Virtually all of the 18,000 applicants each year can do the work. [About 2000 of those applicants are accepted and about 1100 enroll.]

As part of the undergraduate diversity, MIT limits foreign undergraduates to ~18% of the enrollment. That means it is much harder for foreign students to get admitted to MIT than for American-born students. So even though the American-born Asians in the original story have a tougher time getting in, be careful what you wish for. A true meritocracy would probaby have 70% foreign undergraduates at MIT.

Graduate admissions at MIT are by department, e.g. math, physics, chemical engineering, etc. Most MIT departments are research based and hence admit graduate students based on their research potential without regard to diversity. So many MIT graduate departments ARE 70% or more foreign students.

Having dealt with the MITRE Corp (Many Idiots To Reinvent Everything) in the USAF, I no longer trust the name of any corporation.

Harvard picks people by category. They want the best of every category. They want to create leaders in every domain. So a category might be "Asians with high test scores", or "Artistic radical" or "Great musician" or "Arab royalty" and they'll pick the best in each category. Test scores matter less if you're a Great Musician (though still have to be good).

If you're Asian you'll probably have better luck if you have something edgy going for you, interesting politics or something.