India Is For Rapists: Was Their Tent Too Short?
A Swiss tourist reported being gang raped in India while camping with her husband, and Sean McLain reports in the Independent that an Indian police inspector says she has to share blame for the attack:
Tonight, a spokesman for Madhya Pradesh police caused anger by suggesting that the Swiss woman and her husband were partly to blame for the attack. Inspector Avnesh Kumar Budholiya said the tourists had been careless in travelling to a remote part of the country they knew little about."No one stops there," he said. "Why did they choose that place? They were in the wrong place at the wrong time. They would have passed a police station on the way to the area they camped. They should have stopped and asked about places to sleep."
Neerja Ahlawat, sociologist and deputy director of the women's studies centre at Maharshi Dayanand University in Haryana said: "This is typical of all the cases that take place in India. The police don't want to take responsibility. Indian women are not safe, in small towns, villages or the big cities, partly because the police are not assuming responsibility for keeping women safe. They blame the dark, the clothes a woman wears, everything but their shirking of their duties."
At least this is suggesting to Western women that going to India is a great idea if your dream vacation involves being gang-raped.
This is, perhaps, morally similar to the Steubenville situation...
If a person walks down a dark alley in a bad neighborhood, they may be mugged. The mugger is the criminal, and carries 100% of the guilt for the crime. However, the person - the victim - carries the entirely separate responsibility for being stupid.
In this case in India: Some areas are relatively safe; others are dangerous. In particular, rape in India is frequent, and broadly tolerated. That is no excuse for the rapists, who should be punished. However, the woman and her partner are stupid for not informing themselves before wandering off on a camping trip in a foreign country.
a_random_guy at March 19, 2013 7:04 AM
She was from my metro area! Its a bit weird.
NicoleK at March 19, 2013 7:14 AM
partly because the police are not assuming responsibility for keeping women safe
Gee, just like in the USofA.
I R A Darth Aggie at March 19, 2013 8:07 AM
I agree that this is terrible, but I think denizens of the first world might remember that the universe is not their playground. Paying attention to your surroundings is important. And no, police forces aren't actually preventing crime 100% of the time, especially in poor rural areas.
KateC at March 19, 2013 8:43 AM
It's because a lot of people have a view that if your society is safe so must all the rest ( the opposit view is held by some people in bad societies).
I grew up in both, women were thought of as inferior in my family and as equals in society. I have a pretty realistic view I think.
Ppen at March 19, 2013 9:07 AM
The articles I read said the forest she was camping in was actually a well-known popular camping spot for tourists.
It's important to remember that for all the Swiss tourists who get raped in India, there are thousands who don't.
I'm not sure why the media is suddenly reporting on Indian rapes so much. I doubt that it is a new thing.
NicoleK at March 19, 2013 10:44 AM
A former girlfriend (very built, very blonde) went there thinking she was going to this ancient land of mystics and mystery, and ended up barricading her door at night to keep the men from breaking it down to rape her.
You know it's a craphole when you book the flight. What do you expect to change by the time you land?
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at March 19, 2013 11:06 AM
"The articles I read said the forest she was camping in was actually a well-known popular camping spot for tourists."
Nobody on earth puts a tent and sleeps in India unless it is a secured area. Things are not like USA or scandinavia where you just pick a random spot in the forest to put a tent and only worry about your cellphone batteries running out or grizzlies and polar bears mauling you to death. No Indian family ever goes camping. If they want a place to sleep, they go to a hotel for a good reason.
What the swiss couple did is like roaming around on foot in the night in downtown LA or NY or with no weapons to defend yourself. If someone got mugged or killed or raped doing that, fat chance the cops would be able to help in any manner.
Redrajesh at March 19, 2013 11:23 AM
So, what I am hearing is that the culture and laws of India is very different than that of Switzerland or the US, that men are not raised to respect women or basically "keep it in their pants" so to speak. This may lead to ghastly situations, such as the Swiss tourist being raped, or even worse, the Med student that was essentially raped and tortured to death.
If I am understanding this correctly, could someone please explain why liberals think every culture/society/MCF of a country is just as valid, and worthy of respect, as any other?
Enquiring minds want to know.
Kat at March 19, 2013 12:09 PM
Oddly enough, Red, no one goes camping outside designated areas in Switzerland either. For different reasons, though. It's illegal because it hurts the wildlife, and since wildlife is very scarce...
NicoleK at March 19, 2013 12:18 PM
Recent headlines might have served as a warning:
> denizens of the first world might remember
> that the universe is not their playground
There are things about safety & responsibility that India hasn't figured out yet.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at March 19, 2013 12:33 PM
Also, an old/relevant Cintra:
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at March 19, 2013 12:37 PM
Was Their Tent Too Short?
She wasn't tents enough.
This is why you always want to be two tents.
...
I was once accused of being "pro-rape" for being ardently in favor of a "campus carry" bill in the legislature at the time. (It shouldn't need a specific allowance, but that's a ideological nit that unpickable today.)
I said wait a damn minute. I want the women to *shoot the [rapists]* (hopefully, dead), and *I'm the one* who's "pro-rape? I don't think you've thought your case through.
Unix-Jedi at March 19, 2013 12:44 PM
Let's not forget that India has a caste system. The Indians that we think of as stereotypically shy, rather geeky, and non-imposing came to the U.S. and Europe to get away from that.
Cousin Dave at March 19, 2013 2:09 PM
I said wait a damn minute. I want the women to *shoot the [rapists]* (hopefully, dead), and *I'm the one* who's "pro-rape? I don't think you've thought your case through.
Posted by: Unix-Jedi
They did think it out Unix, you are a man (I'm guessing your a man), and that automatically makes you pro rape
lujlp at March 19, 2013 2:26 PM
> denizens of the first world might remember
> that the universe is not their playground
*People* of the world,No Matter Where They Are From, might remember that we are all human beings, and those women's bodies were not their playgrounds, to rape, beat, and in the case of that poor woman on the bus, gut like a fish.
It doesn't matter whether you grew up on Park Ave or in the back woods of where-eversville, there is absolutely no gray area here. Right and Wrong are clearly defined, and trying to blame the victims is.... lame doesn't cover it, neither does shameful. I have no word for it, but I'm sure Crid will :)
Kat at March 19, 2013 4:44 PM
Kat,
An ex Egyptian guy of mine wouldn't take me to Egypt with him. He said I would get sexually assaulted if we went to the part where he was going. Just because WE know it's wrong will not stop them (they don't think it's wrong anyways).
The victim is not to blame but you do not go to these places thinking it couldn't happen to you. These men are animals and like if i was in Alaska i wouldnt expecr a Wild dog to act like my pug at home.
Rape happens because for some cultures it's well....um natural.
Ppen at March 19, 2013 4:55 PM
Ppen, you missed my point. I know that you don't walk down a dark alley at midnight wearing a miniskirt and singing "Save a Horse, Ride a Cowboy" at the top of your lungs and expect to reach your destination unmolested.
My point is that I am royally sick and tired of people making excuses for the "cultures" where rape is, to use your word 'natural'. Not just rape, but FGM, acid attacks, murder-for-being-female-and-getting-raped, the list goes on.
We even saw it here, when those 2 football players were convicted of rape. All sorts of sympathy for them and their "futures", but hardly a word for the victim. MSM reporters weeping over the rapists as if *they* were the victims, it made me throw up a little in my mouth.
Cultures can change for the better. Why can't we say "Hey, India! (or whatever) Clean up your act or my country is going to quarantine you. No one in, no one out. period."
Ok, that would be a bit drastic, but we can tell them to kiss our tourist dollars goodbye, and forget any $million$ in foreign aid, etc.
`Kat at March 19, 2013 5:13 PM
a_random-guy: If a person walks down a dark alley in a bad neighborhood, they may be mugged. The mugger is the criminal, and carries 100% of the guilt for the crime. However, the person - the victim - carries the entirely separate responsibility for being stupid.
I agree.
Neerja Ahlawat: "Indian women are not safe, in small towns, villages or the big cities, partly because the police are not assuming responsibility for keeping women safe."
That may very well be true, that police could be doing a lot more to help keep women safe in India. But even if Indian police were doing a lot more, police can't be everywhere, protecting everyone all the time. Predators exist and will always find ways to prey on people.
JD at March 19, 2013 6:57 PM
Kat: Cultures can change for the better. Why can't we say "Hey, India! (or whatever) Clean up your act or my country is going to quarantine you. No one in, no one out. period."
We seem unable to clean up our act when it comes to people slaughtering others with guns.
JD at March 19, 2013 7:01 PM
JD, sweetie, did you go thru the "Willingness to suspend disbelief" line twice instead of hitting the "Logic circuits" line when you were assembled?
If you can't do any better than that, perhaps you should try doing some homework before you randomly hammerhead your way into a discussion with something that has *absolutely* nothing to do with the topic being discussed.
Kat at March 19, 2013 8:01 PM
> I have no word for it
Dunno. See some of the reactions to Steubenville. There are commenters on this blog who are trying desperately to talk their way around what happened, as if it should be expected. They're effort is desperate because America knows better.
Teaching American men to see the humanity of women is a lot of work. We're so good at it, and it works so often, that we forget how much work it is. Human nature is always looking for a way to let the ugly stuff out to play.
India needs to get started with the difficult work, and I can't imagine how to encourage them.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at March 19, 2013 11:24 PM
Their, not they're. Sorry.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at March 19, 2013 11:44 PM
Crid gets it. Referring to the people involved in a de-humanizing way, or making excuses for the perp's because they were "raised that way and the victim should have known better" is total and complete $hit.
Sure, we aren't perfect. The difference is that we address our problems and concerns so that does not negate our responsibility to encourage, wait, no, strike that, Demand better behavior from our fellow human beings in this or any other part of the world.
I would probably faint if someone on the left were to actually point out that mutilating a 5 year old girl's genitals with a dirty piece of broken glass was wrong, and should cease as of 5 min ago. Hell, I'd faint if anyone inside the Beltway would get up off of their tax-payer funded fundament and actually do something constructive about what women and children suffer in the 3rd world.
The point is this: As a society, we respect life, and those that don't are the exception, not the norm. Compare/contrast that to a place where women can't even walk down a busy city street without being molested, and then come back and tell me in 100 words or less why we shouldn't hold ourselves out as a role model.
Kat at March 19, 2013 11:55 PM
Put this somewhere you can see it:
Police are not required to protect you.
This has been settled, beyond dispute, in case law, in acknowledgement of a sad fact Utopians don't wanna: the first lawsuit for non-protection would strip a community of all police and fire protection.
The operative syllable in the term, "self-defense" is self.
Radwaste at March 20, 2013 3:13 AM
"...anyone inside the Beltway would...actually do something constructive about what women and children suffer in the 3rd world."
How about just staying out of it. I mean, completely out: dear barbaric country, if you want any sort of aid, trade, or anything else, first you have to clean up your act. Here is the minimum set of human rights that must truly exist for your population. Otherwise, you are a blank spot on the map, you do not exist.
Get every Western country to take this attitude, and many (not all, but many) of the countries will make sudden and astounding progress.
a_random_guy at March 20, 2013 8:58 AM
>How about just staying out of it. I mean, completely out: dear
>barbaric country, if you want any sort of aid, trade, or
>anything else, first you have to clean up your act. Here is the
>minimum set of human rights that must truly exist for your
>population. Otherwise, you are a blank spot on the map, you
>do not exist.
What makes you think I don't classify that as "Doing Something"? I suggested the quarantine in one of my previous posts, as well as demanding better behavior combined with the loss of foreign aid $. If you are going to call me out, please make sure you have a good reason. I only respond well to constructive criticism.
Kat at March 20, 2013 9:50 AM
Those of suggesting action wrt backwards countries: I am not optimistic. After all, few domestic programs improve the behavior of the participants, largely because requirements are "gamed", allowed to slide, or fail to impart personal responsibility.
Look at Muslim-dominated nations. They have no intention of changing, even as they can see the direct result of Western prosperity.
Radwaste at March 20, 2013 12:02 PM
Don't be naive, people. We don't help poor countries to help them, we help them to help ourselves. We hope to get something back from them. As long as we are getting what we need from them, we don't care what they do to their people, as long as ours benefit.
NicoleK at March 20, 2013 1:06 PM
that has *absolutely* nothing to do with the topic being discussed.,/i>
Kat, it has to do with what you wrote. You suggested that we lecture India (or any other country where people commit horrible acts against others) to "clean up your act." I just pointed out that we seem incapable of cleaning up our act when it comes to people committing horrible acts against others.
JD at March 20, 2013 5:40 PM
http://rooktopia.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/now-is-the-winter-of-our-discount-tent.jpg?w=450
Unix-Jedi at March 21, 2013 5:17 AM
Anyone know what the rape rates in these countries were before US aid packages demanded local governments crack down on prostitution?
lujlp at March 21, 2013 9:35 AM
I had an acquaintance who planned a trip to Madagascar, to view all the wildlife.
She was born in Egypt, while her father was a fairly high ranking diplomat in the British embassy. so theoretically, at least, she should have had a working knowledge that the "world was not Disneyland".
You would think anyway.
Without bothering the check with the U.S. embassy, she flew to Madagascar with her daughter, and landed smack in the middle of a military take over. (2009)
Instead of turning around immediately and leaving, she made her second bad decision, deciding to hire an armed guard so they could go out and see the wildlife.
Yes, she and her daughter got back to the US with no damage, but I have trouble imagining someone with a medical degree, being this idiotic.
People when you go to a country, where all the houses have bars on the windows, and are usually surrounded by walls, topped with barbed wire, and broken glass, THERE'S YOUR SIGN!
You are not in a safe place, and all the woulda, coulda shoulda, won't save your sorry ass from a lifetime of poor decision making, if you end up in the wrong place at the wrong time.
If you value your life, you will get smart, and get out of there, not spend your time belly aching that the police should do more, or the people or the wildlife should conform to your civilized expectations.
Isab at March 22, 2013 3:32 AM
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