It's not a job that anyone raises 4 kids on, unless they're union waiters in a hotel or a banquet place. It's not a highly skilled trade and there's a huge number of people who'll do it for a while. Not every job is going to pay a so-called living wage, because not every job is a career. High wages for these jobs serve to keep unskilled and low-skilled people out of the job market. Here, in LA, there's a vast army of people who work for very little, and thus, high school kids can't get into the working world, unless they're well connected and middle class to say the least. Jack up those wages even more, and there's no way an unskilled person with a GED has a hope in hell of getting a foot in the door. The minimum wage came about because African-Americans would work for less that white men, and horrors! that had to stop.

They should be paid whatever the market demands. So, if the wages are too low, people will quit to do a different job that pays more and restaurants will have to increase the pay to attract people.

With the possible (possible!) exception of motherhood, there's no job in the world for which a person should expect to earn a living wage…

 …NONE. 

The spark that makes capitalism burn is the necessity of watching each other carefully to figure out what we can do for each other to make our way through the world.

I was not brought to this planet so that you could extract a living from me while not paying close attention to what I truly truly want... (Perhaps before I know myself, Steve Jobs-style.)

I can tote my own goddamn food. I'm a fairly heavy tipper too... But I'm not impressed.

I find that the entire question is so obvious and central to the human experience that Amy has hurt my feelings, pretty badly, merely by approaching it in such a naive manner. I'm going to go write in my journal for awhile; then I'll listen to some music and sit on the sofa in a big fluffy sweatshirt and cry while watching daytime TV video and eating Häagen-Dazs directly from the tub with a tablespoon, Lewinsky-style.

Seriously, Amy. Sharpen your fangs. It's commerce.

…And there's a recession on.

I usually tip 20 and up to 30 or more percent. I'll leave $3 tip for my $9,90 relleno platter.

That being said, no. No. People get crap jobs and then are supposed better themselves to get a higher-paying job. Waiting tables should not be a career. It can be supplemental income of something you do while attending school or between jobs.

Get more skill and more experience and get a better job. Don't make it a career choice.

Define "living wage". Or better yet, define "my fair share" of taxes that the government should be able to extract from me to insure that the waiter, at some restaurant I never go to, is paid a "living wage".

Want all restaurants to have the same business model as General Motors?

This is what you would end up with if you mandated a "living wage". (Whatever that is)

A restaurant is free to raise their menu prices enough to cover paying the waitstaff, and then post a sign on the door saying prices include the gratuity and tax.

The fact that you don't see that happening, says something.

A relative of mine is a doorman at an expensive hotel near Reno Nevada. He is a college grad, and was offered a place in management at the hotel.

He did the math and to move into management, it would be longer hours, and a pay cut.

Right now his life is all about snowboarding. These are the choices that free people get to make.

> Consider that by not paying a living wage you
> are having other people pick up the cost if
> the person has to go on welfare.

Fuckthat Fuckthat Fuckthat Fuckthat Fuckthat FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKK......................

Christ I hate that.

So no matter what happens, no matter how little effort you make (or how little interest you show) in being useful to other people...

...I'm going to be responsible for keeping you fed, right?

I seriously believe that this approach of yours is corrosive, nay, metastatic. 'Exactly how little can was ask of ourselves without suffering too much...?'

Poor old Charlie, laid off, took a lower paying job, starved to death. It's. Just. Not. Happening.

The phrase "living wage" is nothing but propaganda. Old, tired propaganda.

If you don't like what your job pays get a harder, nastier job. I waded in fresh (warm! smelly!) cow guts to put myself through college, in the fellmongery of a decidedly old school meat packing plant.

Nobody forced me to do that awful job, I chose it because overall it met my need to make a year's living expenses during the summer.

My only expectation was that I would be easily replaced by someone who wanted the money even more than me if I didn't provide an honest day's work.

I thought it was pretty cool. I guess I was suffering from false consciousness.

Does 20% = a living wage? 30%? 60%?
And if the server has a kid or two, it needs to double?
If server marries do I then tip half as much?

This is the problem wit the "living wage " junk. Wages should be based on the work done not on the supposid need. If you pay for work, you gt work. If you pay for need you get more need?
The problem is through guaranteed welfare instead of charity, we have already started down this path.

I don't ever think about a "living wage" because it's a phrase that makes no sense (at least to me).

Yes, there are places where college kids can't get a waiting job because there's adults taking them - and some of the "long-termers" help business much more than the waiter-de-season. BUT, if I were to think of it as a "living wage" (and my paycheck doesn't breath, so it sure as heck isn't alive), well, then I'd have to decide what that means.

Does it mean TV? Cell phones? How many kids does the guy/gal have? Is s/he single? How busy has it been during their shifts?

There's no reasonable way to know or guess. So, I don't think about or really care about the "living wage" because it doesn't make sense. (Frankly, I find the term gets my dander up as it makes me think of a giant pulsing stack of money, oozing green money-blood). Also, I've known a few servers (knew them before they took such jobs) and they had nicer phones/cars/TVs/computers/etc than I did, and I worked higher paying jobs.

BUT... I tend to be a pretty good tipper for wait staff. My "base" tip: move the decimal over 1 to get 10%. Double that. A bit better than average & I round up, a bit worse & I round down to the nearest dollar. If I have very lackluster service, but not horrible, I might tip 15%. This would be having to remind the server about stuff more than once (I shouldn't have to ask for a Coke twice, or a missing spoon, etc). Everyone gets a freebie though.

The one time I tipped way less the waiter basically took off (everything was very slow). We'd all finished and after 10-15 minutes, we went to the hostess who said it was "shift change," but 10 minutes later we were STILL waiting for our check. The person who finally brought it wasn't the person who had half-assed waited on us, so the tip was the iconic 2 cents, if I recall.

I have tipped much more than that though. We used to frequent a Pasta House Co. and hit a late Saturday lunch almost every week. It would be very slow and quiet - maybe 4 tables at a time MAX. We ended up on a first-name basis with our favorite server and would ask for him. Every now & again neither of us would be very hungry - maybe order 2 soups. The bill would be, like $10. I'd typically leave a $5. This guy would know any exceptions/changes we'd want (no mushrooms kind of stuff).

General rules: if things are a bit slow & the waitperson acknowledges it & apologizes, no problem. If I get something wrong & it's corrected quickly, no problem. If I do something weird (which I often do) like ask for dessert first and they don't bat an eyelash, that's an immediate bump-up.

Now... my issues are how much to tip the pizza/Chinese deliver guys?

Here waiters get minimum wage plus tips. My SIL is a waitress at a mid range restaurant (like Olive Garden type and pricing). She makes more money hourly on average than I do (I currently make $21.87 an hour). Around here everyone talks about wanting to be a waitress or bartender because of how well it pays, yet somehow a lot of other places in the US it's about the poor starving waitress getting stiffed on tips and the poor things are so overworked and can't help it if they forget things and screw up your order. I get really annoyed that everywhere I go lately people have tip jars set out expecting to be rewarded for doing the job they were hired for in the first place. If they can't make enough to support themselves on, do what other people do and find another career or a second job, especially if it's an unskilled job.

So we should subsidize people that make poor career choices? Need more money? Get some skills or education and get a different job. It isn't as though the waiters are forced to do only that job. Waiting should be temporary. Unless a person chooses to continue longer knowing the income expectations.

My almost 19 year old son is chafing in his current job. He gets a bit more than minimum wage. My advice to him is the same here. Find out what it will take to get a better paying, satisfying job and then *do that*. Whether it is schooling, certificates of competence, knowing the hiring director, having a certain skill set or whatever.

I forgot to mention, I keep seeing those tip jars on the counter at self-serve frozen yogurt shops. What am I supposed to tip for? That they stood there working the cash register? I put the yogurt in my cup and put toppings on it myself. They stand there and watch. I do all the work. What exceptional, tip worthy service did they provide if all they did was ring up the sale?

Aren't the cooks and dishwashers the ones who are getting screwed on wages and tips? Depends on the managements' pay arrangement, but usually cooks and dishwashers make much less than wait staff, I think.

There is a definite skill to serving, though (I could never be a server). Professional, friendly service goes a long way. I'm a tight wad, so I double the sales tax and give %15 as a tip.

On the other hand, I've known wait folk who won't contribute taxes on their tips and complain about low pay. Maybe they should pick tomatoes and prune pistachio trees for a career.

If it's all about the waitperson's need and not about the value I receive, then I suppose I should feel obligated to dart into restaurants & toss a few bucks on the tables, whether or not I actually order anything? What percentage is appropriate if I just stay home and cook & serve my own meal?

Consider that by not paying a living wage you are having other people pick up the cost if the person has to go on welfare. -- Amy Alkon at April 14, 2013 1:41 PM

There should be no minimum wage law as a function of the federal government.

The living wage should be at most a municipal law. And if the restaurants close in a city because they can't compete with the next town over that has food cheaper then that is that cities decision.

Just as you were commenting on Gregg shopping in Venice, why isn't a living wage law any more of a dipshitted laws?

The minimum wage and living wage laws really take away any incentive for someone to do a better job. A person knows that they can walk into any number of businesses knowing that they'll get $8 an hour. So they do the minimum to get by, and the business manager can't fire them because they do their "job". Or if they are fired they can go down the street. So the manager has to hire five people where if they actually had to compete he could get the same amount of work done with just three and manager would have an incentive to give raises to to keep them.

As far as welfare -- it shouldn't exist or should be what it was meant for -- a three to six month save your butt because something went catastrophically wrong. After that, you are expected to go back to work. Same with food stamps and all the rest of the social programs.

> Waiters in France at restaurants where there
> is a service charge and not a tip (save for
> some change at the end) are excellent.

I can't imagine the relevance of your point.

They've found a way to earn a living... That's what you want, right?

it's amazing how ostensibly libertarian impulses, slide right down into the gutter of socialism when they encounter "unfairness" in free enterprise isn't it?

Probably why they will never make it as a political party.

> Aren't the cooks and dishwashers the ones
> who are getting screwed on wages and tips?

If you're getting screwed, GET A NEW JOB. I used to wash dishes; learning to edit TV shows bought me a house, world travel....

Figure out what people will pay a lot of money for; Do it.


I don't understand why you're pretending this is complicated.

> slide right down into the gutter of socialism

I've been getting all snippy with Amy about this stuff for very nearly 10 years.

> I suppose I should feel obligated to dart
> into restaurants & toss a few bucks on the
> tables, whether or not I actually order anything

☑ (Apparently so, Dood....)

> And all of you arguing value for service, do you
> pay both the waiter in the high-end restaurant
> and Applebee's 50 cents for refilling your water
> glass, or is your argument not about what you
> think it's about.

?

? ?

Rephrase.

I tip between 15 and 20% by default. If the server actually comes across as rude or apathetic, the tip drops to between 10 and 15%. For good service, the sky is the limit, depending on how much they actually go out of their way, etc.

I really hate to skimp on tips because I was a waitress for a while. Of course, I was 19 and living with my parents, so I thought any tip I received was pretty cool.

I used to wash dishes; learning to edit TV shows bought me a house, world travel....

You're smart and I'm glad it worked out for ya -- but let's be honest: you got fired from the dish washing job because you didn't have the skills.

Just because you're a fabulously successful video editor, doesn't mean that you don't want to return to the glamour of those dish washing years. If only it payed more, right? Amirite?

Offtopic- This clip reminds us that all the "comedians" of the Saturday Night Live / National Lampoon generation are just pussies.

(The 'singer' is Bing Crosby, and it's a great likeness.)

> Amirite?

The fucker has seen through the charade that is my life.

He mocks me, and it burns... The tears flow languidly down my face and into my mustache; They are salty, and I taste them.

> slide right down into the gutter of socialism

I've been getting all snippy with Amy about this stuff for very nearly 10 years.

Posted by: Crid [CridComment at gmail] at April 14, 2013 3:27 PM

You don't seem to be making much progress my friend.

Sorry about the bitter tears in your mustache. I sometimes cry like that too, and then I think about how it is not 1942, and my ass isn't sitting on Bataan, and it immediately cheers me right up.

> You don't seem to be making much progress
> my friend.

But it's incredibly fun to snipe at another human being, essentially a stranger, over these vanishingly trivial judgments!

> I sometimes cry like that too, and then I think
> about how it is not 1942, and my ass isn't
> sitting on Bataan

This morning I was thinking about an old girlfriend who married a 'Nam vet. (I was born in '59, and didn't even have to register for the draft.) He was a strong, sober and loving guy, and so far as I know it's a wonderful marriage, but he and his friends were not talkers... Around others.

And then just now I was looking at online stuff about Jonathan Winters. (See offtopic, above.) I can't find the article from years ago that made it clear, but the deal was this: He saw shit in WWII that broke his heart permanently… Tiny pieces, widely scattered. He's one of the guys —and there were thousands and thousands— who came back and built wonderful lives nonetheless... With only minimal consequences for others.

(Others in show business & amusement include Yves Montand and cartoonist Charles Schultz.)

A generation younger than mine is so far removed from war that it can't even imagine why it's necessary. Expressing gratitude for being excused from it, whether by fate, by policy, or by the sacrifice of others, is not something they want to be bothered with.

When people mock the sense of conformity that challenged Elvis (etc.) in the 50's, I wish they could bear all this in mind.

Eric (& others here) hate the Dubya Wars for the misery they created... But if they'd had the weight of a spear behind them and not just the pointy part that makes things bleed, those invasions would have made the world a much better place, instead of a merely different one.

Fuggin' HTML.

Amy,

I think your point that the "value of service" argument is a bit arbitrary. So is the percent system, which is fairly common. So, going to your fancy versus not fancy restaurant question...

Should it be flat? Say, $X per person, with an extra buck for each unusual thing for good measure? After all, the food at fancy place is more expensive than the not fancy place, but carrying drinks is still the same work.

Done on the percent scale, I think all my servers get hosed because when we go out, we typically order water (drinks, even a Coke, jack up the price quickly in a large group). So, if I go out to dinner & get water instead of wine or even a Coke, should I up the percent I leave?

I think the reason percents took off is that there is some correlation with the amount of difficulty. The water-pitcher guy comes around every 10 minutes and refills, so that's less than the Coke/Diet Coke guy's effort. The fancy drinks are more effort, as are serving & clearing multiple courses. BUT, as you point out, it's not a perfect system (although fancy restaurants may require more experience, etc.).

I think the thing is, there IS no perfect system. When I go out to eat, I don't want to be cheap or rude, but it's not my purpose to go out and support the wait staff, the restaurant, or the economy, it's to get food or share a pleasant meal. I will tip extra for helping that, and ding a bit for making it harder.

While I know many "professional" waitpeople, many are semi-retired, have it as their second job, or as a secondary job to a spouses - to save up for fun stuff. I can't begin to assume other people's finances, or I won't have that nice meal! Of course, I say this as somebody who generally leaves a decent tip (see my previous comment).

One last thing. I can look at the charts, but it still doesn't make any more sense. Those numbers are, in a sense, arbitrary. I know 1-parent families with no childcare costs because they're in school or grandma stays with them.

Since income is guessed based on a 15-20% tip estimate (for IRS purposes), I try to leave that, or in that range, with the VERY few exceptions I noted. I do think less that that does hose them, at least for tax purposes. I will assume honesty, unless given reason to believe otherwise.

No, they should not be paid that way. That will jack of the price of the meal.

And waiters knew that they would be paid below minimum wage when they took the job. If they don't like it, they need to do something else.

And when I was a waiter, I found I did just fine, even though I was paid half minimum wage.

"people will quit to do a different job that pays more "

Like Cannon Fodder 1st Class, or Strawberry Picker, or Crack Dealer.

So many, many good entry level jobs in the economy today - and they're everywhere!

Yes, it truly is an amazing time for Americans on the bottom.

Great restaurants have their wait staff tip the bartenders, bus boys and dishwashers.

"What do you tip, Joe J?"
I'd say between $5 and $15 depending on the service and how well I and others are behaving.

But that still doesn't answer the question what % = a "living wage" especially since the link you have has several living wages dependng on the number of kids.

"do you give your boss back a few hundred dollars of your salary when you have an off week? Do tell!
"
No but I have recieved 2 bonuses in the past year, sounds like compensation for good service to me.

> So many, many good entry level jobs in the
> economy today - and they're everywhere!

This sarcasm is not appropriate. It doesn't illuminate. It's not instructive.

But let's take it at face value! You're dissatisfied with "the entry level jobs in the economy today." Right? (We'll stop there. The "and they're everywhere!" will probably take care of itself as we discuss this.)

You're dissatisfied... So what's gone wrong? What exactly do you want to have happen?

Is the world supposed to do something to make entry level jobs go better for people? All of them? What exactly would that be?

Should we pay people with entry level jobs as much as we pay highly trained a highly skilled professionals?

Many of these jobs are held by people who've never given a moment of thought to making others happy in meaningful ways. Should we nonetheless pretend they're brilliant innovators whose souls pulse in time with the needs of those around them? Should we coddle these people until they're struck by the inspiration to do something that other people want done?



Gog, you are really a hippy, are you? Are you an "occupy" guy?

You 'aren't' was supposed to be the final question.

The 20% one gives in America isn't really a tip, it is payment. It's arbitrary payment. It's an idiotic system. Service should be included and it shouldn't be up to the whim of the patron whether or not the server should be paid. Then if the patron wants to leave a tip, a real tip, great.

People who don't tip in America are effectively thieves who feel entitled to someone's free services.

I tip 15-20% because that is what the service costs in America.

In Switzerland where I don't have to pay the service I usually leave a couple francs, "pour boire".

FWIW: I tip pretty much the same rate always, between 15% and 20% depending on where the rounding lands. This amount because it has become the norm, and it's the rest of the salary the wait staff more or less expects in return for doing the job. That said, two points:

- This is a really stupid way of paying someone a salary. Tipping should be utterly optional; the salary should be paid by the employer, and the cost thereof incorporated into the prices.

- No one deserves a "living wage", if by that you mean paying someone more than their work is worth. Amy's cynical argument: failing to pay people more than they are worth means they will get welfare. But paying people more than their work is worth is still welfare, handled in a way guaranteed to be inefficient and uneven.

If someone cannot add enough value to a business to justify $X/hour, then either they will get less or they will have no job. One needs to remind the well-meaning that the minimum wage was originally a measure designed to keep undesirables out of the job market. It is well-known (and utterly obvious) that a rising minimum wage puts marginally qualified people out of work.

"This sarcasm is not appropriate. It doesn't illuminate. It's not instructive."

Not for you, perhaps.

For lesser luminaria it is a candle in a bag of sand placed along the path to the doorway of awareness.

Also, Hooters.

If someone cannot afford to tip properly, or if they are too cheap to do so, then they can always exercise their option to eat at home or go to a self serve restaurant.

Since so many here seem to be for a "free market" economy, I am left to wonder why they don't advertise their intention to leave a poor tip at the beginning of the meal.

In a "free market" the waiters would know what they were selling their services for at the beginning... not get surprised at the end by getting stiffed.

At least they could then focus their attention upon the good tippers and leave the poor tippers to fend for themselves.

That would be a real "free market". Keeping the wait staff in the dark about your cheap ways until the very end compels them to divert their attention from the individuals who will actually pay them for their time.

Don't be a leech. Tell them from the start that you only intend to tip 10%. You will then ensure that they earn every penny while they devote twice as much time to the individual who will tip them 20%.

What larger social purpose is fulfilled by having people make a living at waiting tables or any other entry level job?

I mean, these are entry level, right?

From each according to his ability, to each according to his need? Sounds familiar, been tried, didn't work, but next time, for certain.

I leave 20%,and don't worry about it.

Crid: "Is the world supposed to do something to make entry level jobs go better for people?"

Waiting is NOT an "entry-level job" for everyone.

Furthermore, Nicole is exactly right here -- and this is what I'm getting at:

"The 20% one gives in America isn't really a tip, it is payment. It's arbitrary payment. It's an idiotic system. Service should be included and it shouldn't be up to the whim of the patron whether or not the server should be paid. Then if the patron wants to leave a tip, a real tip, great. People who don't tip in America are effectively thieves who feel entitled to someone's free services."

Nicole gets this because she is able to take a more thoughtful perspective.

How many of you give back pay when you've been hung over on a Monday and not able to do much more than sit at your desk and fake it?

Crid? Anybody?

Or for that matter, how many of you take a car from a dealership, and after using it for a while and it is already in your position, decide how much to pay the dealership?

How many of you go to the dentist, and then afterwards pay how much you feel your filling was worth, and hey, if you thought s/he was rude you don't pay at all?

We don't pay for other goods and services this way, why food service?

I must admit I did not read the whole thread. However, I still wanted to comment. I waited tables for over ten years while putting myself through school and then after the birth of my daughter (My then husband and I needed the extra money and I had to choose a shift/job that would allow me to work after he got home so that we didn't have to pay for childcare). To those people who say it is not a "skilled" trade you are dead wrong. To single handedly give outstanding service to over 100 people in a party take tremendous skill. Waiting tables provided me with many skills I now use in my profession. The argument is simple if you enjoy an $8.75 plate of food at Applebees or any other type of casual dining restaurant if they paid the waiters minimum wage that 8.75 would easily be increased to 12-15 to cover the costs of the employees. Tipping structure though flawed allows restaurants to run with the minimum number of employees to cover the largest amount of people. Since these people will compete for tables and generally work harder. This also cuts down on management costs since the managers don't have to constantly "motivate" employees to do the bare minimum. I feel like people who have never waited tables lack the knowledge of the industry and how it actually works. Tips is actually an acronym To Insure Prompt Service. Like I said just wanted to put my two cents in here. People who get service at places where they are dining should tip period. I have found that people that don't tip generally are dumb enough to frequent the same places... Unfortunately for you people you never saw the movie Waiting. "don't f*ck with people who handle your food"

I know wait staff who have made this their career. Ergo, it must be able to provide them with enough scratch to allow them to live. And support their dependents.

Of course, they're good at what they do. Those who aren't...don't last long.

And they didn't spend 4 years in some institute of higher learning piling up insane amounts of debt for a degree that qualifies them for a job at Starbucks...

Also: this "living wage" is a red herring.

People advocate raising the minimum wage to some set amount, depending on whom. Let's for argument sake, set it to $15/hour.

Well, why not $50, or $100/hour? why not $1,000/hour? whaddya mean that's ridiculous?

The problem here is that when you raise the bottom, you will feel pressure at all points above to raise wages. When I can no longer afford to go out and eat, guess what?

I no longer go out and eat. Congratulations, Ms/Mr Server, you've priced yourself out of my ability to pay for your services.

> Waiting is NOT an "entry-level job" for
> everyone.

Why the Hell not? Why have you, Ms. Alkon, decided that chore of walking back to the kitchen to bring me a clean knife when I've dropped the first is enterprise of such compelling detail and craftsmanship that it deserves special consideration and protection? why exactly is the more important to the development of Western Civ than, say, washing cars in a auto dealership?

Why are you willing to forestall innovation this part of our economy? Are countertop-pickup, drive-thru, and home delivery demonic trends in modern life? Do they choke the transmission of precious workmanship between generations of critical talent? (Waitstaff unions would probably say so....)

You're evading the question.

> People who don't tip in America are effectively
> thieves who feel entitled to someone's free
> services.

Listen, if you aren't being paid for your work, sue the employer in a court of law. If you can't sue them in a court of law, go find a job where the price of your work is firmly established.

The loosey-goosey link between a waiter's performance and payment may well have weak underpinnings in logic and law... But nobody cares and nobody SHOULD care, because it's not a field that breeds meaningful talent anyway.

I go to this diner accross the street from work. (Spinach and egg on rye with a side a fruit.) There was this girl with a cute butt and a face like a model who's waited tables there for about three years, and then a couple months ago she vanished. On Wednesday I saw her visiting her old team in there, and she was a wearing a suspiciously crisp (but tightly-tailored) set of surgical scrubs. She was cheerful.

Apparently she decided that being stared at by horndog old video editors wasn't an attractive life, so she's doing something better. Maybe neurosurgery, maybe dental hygiene.

Either way, everybody wins... Right? The new girl isn't as cute, she's more goth-y... But the food comes just as fast, and I can tell she digs me.

It's a fucking sandwich. Waitstaff talent is correctly priced.

Just tell the wait staff how much you plan on tipping them for good service and what good service entails when they are taking your order and you won't have a problem.

The fundamental problem is that the most demanding, nitpicky, pain in the ass, entitled customers in any restaurant also tend to be the absolute worst tippers.

Someone who is working for you have the right to know ahead of time what you expect of them and how much they will be compensated if they meet those expectations.

Failure to divulge that information ahead of time makes someone a con artist because they are banking on the fact that even though they tip poorly, they will receive the same service as someone who tips well because the waiter doesn’t find out until the end.

This problem disappears if you are honest at the outset of the interaction.

Most people understand that it is a stupid arrangement to work for an employer who doesn’t tell you what your salary will be or how your performance will be evaluated. Furthermore, a prospective employee has the right to refuse to work for someone who won’t pay them what they believe they are worth.

This “free market” model doesn’t work when wait staff is essentially forced to work for people who don’t inform them what the salary structure is when they begin employment.

I eat in the same seafood restaurant all the time, and sometimes the fish is incredibly fresh (i.e. it just came out of the water), other times it is less fresh but still good.

Why doesn't the price of my meal fluctuate with the freshness of the catch?... and yet the waiter's pay should somehow fluctuate wildly depending upon who they are bringing that fish to?

The whole system is just a screwed up way for cheap moochers to take advantage of the labor of others.

Quite frankly, if you are a cheap tipper you are stealing services from your fellow patrons who tip better than you.

You simply aren't entitled to the same service and attention as someone who pays their waiter better than you do. So do everyone a favor and inform them that you won't be paying them well such that they can focus their attention on the paying customers.

Many times being in the service industry is tantamount to gambling. One would like to assume that accounting for all the same variables each time will yield the same result. However having been a server for over 10 years I can tell you if you give above average to every customer you will be wasting your efforts many times. So for Crid who said the industry doesn't "breed any meaningful talent" was just plain wrong. though I will profess an innate ability to "read" people very quickly. This particular skill set was honed by years of trial and error and my own "experiments" with dealing with people. My employer now relishes the experience I have in this department when we allocate resources for certain clients and less for others. I am very good at judging what will pay off in the end. However, perhaps knowing how to allocate resources, time, and energy are not in fact "meaningful talents".

When the economy was pumpin you couldn't have sold a single buss boy or barista on this minimum wage variant. People want it now because times are lean and people aren't spending much on their finery (ask your favorite stripper, oh wait, you don't go out often enough to have a favorite anymore.)

"How many of you give back pay when you've been hung over on a Monday and not able to do much more than sit at your desk and fake it?"

There are trade offs to a salaried job too. You could be riding out these lean times as an LAT 'science' writer.

> Just tell the wait staff how much you plan on
> tipping them for good service and what good
> service entails when they are taking your order
> and you won't have a problem.

Well, Bunny, I don't have a problem anyway... But your proposal is obtuse, not audacious. The expectations to which waiters are held are essentially universal.

And howlingly mundane.

> The fundamental problem is that the most
> demanding, nitpicky, pain in the ass, entitled
> customers in any restaurant also tend to be
> the absolute worst tippers.

Is that the "The fundamental problem"? Then the restauranteur should raise his prices to make up the shortfall. Nobody promised him, or his employees, that the rest of the world was going to compensate him or his laborers for his miserliness.

In the same way, I wouldn't be tolerant with a dentist who wanted to charge $4,000 for a cleaning because his last patient stiffed him for an implant. If you're in business, I expect you to have a clear, adult understanding of law, both in civic codes and human nature. Get over yourself.

> You simply aren't entitled

"Simply"!

> Many times being in the service industry
> is tantamount to gambling.

I feel no ethical need to compensate gamblers, whether by habit or by policy. I tip well because I'm a decent, moderately successful, and profoundly good-looking human being.

But y'know what my favorite two-word sentence is?

No tears.

…For 20 seconds. (Nineteen, eighteen, seventeen....)

> You could be riding out these lean times as
> an LAT 'science' writer.

Even in the fattest hours, those people did not impress.




You know what we need here? A perspective from an adult business figure. Hmmmm.... Where to find one?

Hey! That redhead over there! Tall, skinny one! Ya lady, you!

Did you ever have a problem billing a client, in any context?

(Nightmare, right?)

"What larger social purpose is fulfilled by having people make a living at waiting tables or any other entry level job?"

exquisitely engineered inefficiencies

"Even in the fattest hours, those people did not impress." One of the trade-offs of steady pay.

Agreed! The Los Angeles Times has always been preeningly smug in her mediocrity.

"exquisitely engineered inefficiencies" = idiot marketing.

Did you hang out with any black people in Tokyo?

No?

Statistically remarkable.

Quite frankly, if you are a cheap tipper you are stealing services from your fellow patrons who tip better than you.

More importantly, restaurant owners have convinced consumers that it's their job to pay waiters' salaries directly. Owners should pay their own employees and charge accordingly for the food.

MonicaP,

That is an excellent point and one I fully agree with.

I'm simply trying to appeal to the other side who doesn't seem to comprehend that the system is specifically designed to cheat workers out of earned income. People like that don't particularly care if wait staff is paid for their efforts.

I was hoping they might understand the concept that when they tip 10% and someone else tips 20%... that if they expect 50% of the waiter's time they are in fact cheating their fellow customers. Apparently they are too selfish to care about that detail either.

Crid Says:

"Nobody promised him, or his employees, that the rest of the world was going to compensate him or his laborers for his miserliness."

Sure... one could view it this way I suppose.

However it is curious that you fully expect the employees to compensate you for your clumsiness for free when you say this:

"Why have you, Ms. Alkon, decided that chore of walking back to the kitchen to bring me a clean knife when I've dropped the first is enterprise of such compelling detail and craftsmanship that it deserves special consideration and protection?"

If you attend a restaurant and are provided with a clean set of silverware, what entitles you to a free replacement if you drop it on the floor?

Would you similarly expect a free replacement to your dinner if you knock that on the floor mid way through your meal as well?

What if you purchase food at the supermarket and then drop it on the floor on your way to the car?... should the supermarket provide you with a free replacement because of your clumsiness?

The rest of the world owes you nothing more than you owe it... and yet here you are, expecting people to compensate you for being clumsy as you tell those same people to fuck themselves.

You certainly live in an interesting little world of entitlement.

Daniel Gross needs to get outside of Tokyo.

From my perspective, and admittedly I have only been here a couple of months, Japan is a relatively poor country compared to the US, that still has a huge and dirty industrial sector.
They put their best face forward in Tokyo, but here in the hinterlands, there are a huge number of second hand stores, ramen shops, used car dealers, and large numbers of people who are just barely getting by.
Employees do greet you as you enter the establishment but that is not their only duty.

No tipping in Japan, the price, tax and service charge are included in the advertised menu price, and usually the restaurants are mom and pop operations, where one person cooks, while the other waits tables and works the register.

If they like you as a customer, and,you are not a pain in the ass, they will give you a rebate coupon good for a future visit.

Maybe American restaurants could learn something from this?

It appears to me that American restaurants want to disguise the total cost of a meal by not pricing it with a tax or service charge, in hopes that you will spend more than you had intended.
Regardless of how they structure their pricing, and pay the waiters, this is really none of a customers business.

The fiduciary relationship, and the only one to be concerned about is between the restaurant owner, and his employees.

The customer can not be held to some unspoken social custom of tipping a certain percent. Not only because customers from outside the culture will not understand it, but because unless they are in a restaurant that clearly states," the gratuity will be added to the bill", there is the expectation that the waiters wages are between him and his boss.

> More importantly, restaurant owners have
> convinced consumers that it's their job to pay
> waiters' salaries directly. Owners should pay
> their own employees and charge accordingly
> for the food.

☑

> If you attend a restaurant and are provided
> with a clean set of silverware, what entitles
> you to a free replacement if you drop it on
> the floor?

The resolute, demonstrable certainty that such an inconvenience is, in that phrase most common to every person who ever operated a commerce venture of any kind, "the cost of doing business." Were it not so, restaurants would warn their visitors on the sign at the door: You get ONE fork, muthafucka...

> an interesting little world

You're pushing too hard, like a person who's never been involved in adult commerce. How old are you again? Are you courageous enough to share ANY personal details from your life whatsoever?

> The customer can not be held to some unspoken
> social custom of tipping a certain percent.

☑

"> The customer can not be held to some unspoken
> social custom of tipping a certain percent."

Actually, yes they can -- or yes, they should be. There's a social norm that's understood -- tipping 15 percent, or maybe 20, depending on where you live (percent of service).

If you aren't willing to pay that, tell the waiter before they serve you so they can provide you with service according to what you are willing to pay.

Crid, what do you tip? I'm guessing your actual tips don't reflect your tone and arguments here.

> Actually, yes they can

No they can't, or there'd be prosecutions.

> -- or yes, they should be.

A hideous and impulsive grasp towards policy. Someday I'm going to get REALLY bored and count the number of socialist twitches you post in a single month. You heart will quiver in shame, and you'll never leave your house again. As much as any lefty, you're so certain that you're right that you can imagine no finer paradise than yourself in the Big Chair, adjudicated the merest intimacies and the grandest injunctions.

Grrrr, little girl. GGGRRRRRRRR! You are not that nice. No one is.

Listen, if you want to say the American conventions for tipping are all fucked up, then no one will argue. I mean, there's a shapely, beach-tanned, 40-ish woman at the aforementioned diner who I want to hit on pretty badly, and all these petty customs ruin the moment.

> what do you tip?

Normative=20%. (Unless some shimmering genius from Alaska drops out of the sky to feed me burgers and wine. That happens sometimes.)

I live my arguments every day in every way, with have the strength of ten... because my heart is pure.

A waiterstaffer has no right to presume I'm gonna pay him/her dick, and that goes double for the restauranteur.

"Actually, yes they can -- or yes, they should be. There's a social norm that's understood -- tipping 15 percent, or maybe 20, depending on where you live (percent of service)"

Holding someone accountable implies some enforcement mechanism, or agency that I am unaware of.

Maybe the TIP police could become part of the TSA?

The only one here with any ability to enforce a gratuity is the restaurant owner, and he is free to do that by posting a sign and adding it to the bill.

If he chooses not to because his business model has his six kids waiting tables, that is his business, and not any concern of the customer.

Just like I don't care whether the salesman I encounter at a car dealership gets a salary, works on commission, or owns the whole damn place. I don't need to enquire as to his status within the company in order to figure out a "fair"
price for the car.

Are you seriously suggesting that a customer at any business establishment has a moral or ethical obligation to delve into the employer employee relationship and the how they are paid before he does any business with them?

Crid Says:

"The resolute, demonstrable certainty that such an inconvenience is, in that phrase most common to every person who ever operated a commerce venture of any kind, "the cost of doing business." Were it not so, restaurants would warn their visitors on the sign at the door: You get ONE fork, muthafucka..."

Right... so you as a customer deserve a warning that if you are clumsy and drop the items you are provided that you are responsible.

However... the waiter deserves no warning whatsoever that even if they provide impeccable service they will only receive a substandard tip?

This is what is so hilarious about your perspective on this issue.

You believe that in a "free market" only you deserve advanced notice about the transaction you are about to be involved in, however the other party doesn't deserve any advanced notice at all.

This is why the current system with tipping (no matter what the standard percent happens to be) isn't a "free market" system.

In a free market the supply side and the demand side agree in advance on what the transaction fee is going to be and what services are going to be provided.

The current tipping system is skewed ridiculously in favor of the demand side where they get to consume both the product and the service and then determine unilaterally afterward what they are willing to pay for the service component.

The supply side in this equation hasn't been given the opportunity to agree to anything. They are simply expected to take whatever they are given.

That isn't a "free market" system.

You could make it a free market system if you were willing to negotiate a price for their service before they took your order.

However that might mean they would get a fair deal.

The only people this system benefits are cheap skates who don't want to pay for services rendered.

If it is too much trouble to tip the wait staff you have no business going out to eat.

> that you are responsible.

Are you fucking kidding? This is a rhetorical point for you? Yes, I've taken "full responsibility" for every piece of silverware I've dropped since age 3.

> That isn't a "free market" system.

You're promiscuous with quotation marks.

Again... How old are you? Are you a shut-in?

Isab,

You have selected a bad example with regard to dealing with a salesman at a car dealership.

Just to put this in perspective.

Imagine if a car dealership worked like this:

You walk on the lot and select a car you like. The salesman then puts together your order and you are allowed to take the car off the lot immediately without having to pay anything for it.

You then use the car until you have no further need of it.

Only then do you return to the dealership to pay the salesman for what you think the car was worth.

There is a reason car dealerships don't work this way. It is because the value of the car to you after you have used it is far less than it was when you first ventured onto the lot to obtain the car in the first place.

Furthermore, the salesman no longer has any ability to deprive you of the car if they find your offer to be unacceptable. You've already used the car, and it is by your own personal ethics alone that the salesperson will be fairly compensated.

This is why you have to negotiate with sales representative before you get the car. You have to agree in advance what the deal is going to be.

If this is how you or anyone else dealt with wait staff it wouldn't be an issue.

If you don't feel a need to tip waiters the standard 15-20% just let them know ahead of time and you will receive the service you are willing to pay for.

Refusal to do this just makes it seem like you are trying to obtain 20% service for 10% prices. Only con artists and thieves behave that way.

Crid Says:

"Yes, I've taken "full responsibility" for every piece of silverware I've dropped since age 3."

If you took "full responsibility" for the dropped silverware you wouldn't expect someone else to get you a new clean piece of silverware as part of standard service. Surely you don't drop your silverware on the floor so regularly as to consider it a "standard" event.

Full responsibility would entail either recognizing the extra effort and compensating them accordingly. Or conversely you could pick up the dropped silverware yourself, carry it to the sink and wash if off.

Providing you with new silverware cannot simultaneously be so easy and fast that it deserves no consideration at all, and yet too laborious and time consuming for you to do it yourself.

> recognizing the extra effort and compensating
> them accordingly

Done; I say "thanks."

How old?

Orion, I am still at a loss to figure out what your criticism has to do with my main point, which is,

it is not my job as a customer to examine the business model of any business, and compensate representatives of that business accordingly. Nor is it my ethical or moral responsibility to insure that anyone who does anything for me, is being paid a "living wage"

I tip because my ethics dictate, in general is the polite thing to do,

and not because I have assumed a personal ethical obligation to make sure that my waiter is compensated appropriately.

Legally and morally, that is between him, and the business.

I have no part in it other than what the law requires me to do, which is pay for what I ordered, and if I agreed up front to a gratuity included on the check, that would be covered by the law also.

"Full responsibility would entail either recognizing the extra effort and compensating them accordingly. Or conversely you could pick up the dropped silverware yourself, carry it to the sink and wash if off."

This could be fun.

So, if I get a dirty fork at my place setting in a restaurant, rather than just politely asking for another one, I should pick it up, march back into the kitchen to wash it myself, and then demand that the waiter compensate me for my efforts?

Or would I be better off, just deducting it from the "now mandatory" tip?

Now,I am curious, like Crid. How old?

Again, do you leave $22 dollars for bringing you a plate of food in a fancy restaurant but only $2 in a not fancy one? Is the $22 dollar service truly that much superior to the $2 service?

Good question.

My entering position is 30% for a cheap meal, and going down to 20% for the spendier dining experiences. The staff at fancy restaurants do put rather more effort into presentation than cheaper ones, it's part of that whole "fancy" thing.

What I think you are missing here is that the product of a restaurant meal is more than the food itself; a significant component of satisfaction derives from the kindness and effort of the wait staff. The tipping custom, as rote as it is, buys that kindness and effort.

I have lived in places where servis compris prevailed.

And so did bloody awful service.

Minimum wage laws show just how freedom-hating socialism is. The collective has decided that below some wholly arbitrary number, you do not have the freedom to choose employment over unemployment.

I wonder how many jobs we could bring back from China, and put into shattered ghettos, if minimum wage laws disappeared?

Generally, I believe you are right Jeff. Servis compris does suck. Here in Japan, so far, service has been almost non existent at the small local places, and minimal at best at the pricy ones.

And this in a country where the moving crew bows, and takes off their shoes when they come in the house (and then apologizes for water in the entry way when there is six inches of snow outside)

Bloody awful service seems to be the norm in Great Britain from what I remember. Service was generally good in Germany, and service was pretty darn good, last time I was in Rome, but of course in Rome, as in many places, the prices differ if you sit at a table rather than stand at the counter.

Isab,

I am not asking you to "examine the business model" or to "compensate representatives of that business accordingly".

Nor am I asking you to "insure that anyone is paid a "living wage"".

These are all strawman arguments of your own making.

The ONLY thing I have been suggesting is that if you are not going to adhere to the generally accepted social custom of tipping the wait staff 15-20% for standard service that you should let them know ahead of time.

You don't have an ethical obligation to "make sure that my waiter is compensated appropriately".

You have an obligation to be honest with them BEFORE they begin to provide you service.

Just like they have an obligation to be honest with you DURING service.

This really isn't all that difficult to understand.

Crid,

Just save everyone else some time and aggravation and wash carry the silverware to the bathroom and wash if off in the sink if you think "thank you" is the sufficient response.

Saying "thank you" is only sufficient when someone is doing you a favor.

However you expect them to perform this duty as part of their job. So far as you are concerned they don't really have the right to refuse.

Hence they are working for you when they perform that extra task.

When someone works for you and does their job you compensate them with payment.

Goodness gracious, who raised you?

Why even pay for the meal at all when you can just thank the chef and the owner and then be on your merry way?

Does your employer pay you with "thank you's" in lou of a salary?

Isab Says:

"Or would I be better off, just deducting it from the "now mandatory" tip?"

Why are you being so obtuse?

This is EXACTLY what people do.

If you are provided with dirty silverware and the waiter refuses to replace it, that money would come straight out of their tip and you might even complain to their manager.

That is how people operate when they go out to eat.

Haven't you been to a restaurant before?

I think it is odd that Orion is getting all defensive about people in the service industry providing, you know, service. That is what they do. Fresh fork, presto!

If servers are not making enough where they work, they will go somewhere else. Good servers do really quite well and bad ones don't last long before they go to work at McDonald's or something.

The waitstaff people I have known have been quite adept and make a good living. They like the flexibility of scheduling and though they may gripe about cheapskates, not one of them *ever* claimed the full cash amount of tips earned for taxes.

I'm not going to worry my pretty little head about "living wage" because it is a bullshit made up number. If they cannot make ends meet they have many options. Move, work somewhere else, study/learn skills to make them more valuable, get some roommates, cut expenses.

That is what people need to do, not depend on some arbitrary number of dollars called a living wage. Move to West Virginia. You can get a 3 bedroom house in town for $500/ month in rent.

> However you expect them to perform this
> duty as part of their job.

You're a shut-in, right? This is like the fifth topic you've commented on. You have zero appreciation for proportion. You're long-winded, and your prose is colorless, rote and entirely impractical, which bothers you not at all. Your parents, or the administrators of an institution, are essentially living your life for you. You've never had any of your own skin in the game, the kind of process that requires negotiation, trust and exchange. I'm certain of this.

So what's the deal, little fella? Wheelchair? Homeschool? Feeding tubes? Something big, I'm certain.

Crid, All your guesses are good ones, but I suspect an element of Aspergers here, possibly with a dash of Speicial Ed G&T program.

No one, but a pompous ass, or a Master of the Universe 16 year old lectures professionals like you, on the mechanisms of commerce like they were an idiot five year old.

And no one but a mechanistic I dotter and t crosser would try to reduce tipping to a "check the boxes" formula where ethics demand that you tell your waiter up front what you tip, (followed, I assume, by a long winded lecture on what you deduct for)

Well, sumthin'. His certainty is just too casual. It's untested.

LauraGr,

I'm not getting defensive about anything. I am arguing for the proposition that people in the service industry are working.

They aren't there to perform a charity service for the patrons benefit.

They aren't volunteering at a soup kitchen.

Why are you against the concept of telling people honestly at the outset of a financial interaction that you don't buy into the standard waiter-customer payment paradigm?

I'm simply advocating for honestly here. Not about paying people a "living wage".

That is all there is to it. Just be honest about your financial intentions.

That is how a free market works.

Free markets are eroded by fraud and deception.

Only cheats, thieves, and con artists advocate for a "free market" where fraud and deception are an acceptable component of the system.

Crid,

You just have a nasty habit of being perpetually wrong with zero evidence to support your position.

If you actually recall, our last "argument" involved the financial opportunities solar energy as opposed to oil.

Since that time I made over 30% profit on first solar. Go ahead and check for yourself, at the time of our discussion it was priced at 27... it is currently above 37. That just transpired within a couple of months. If you had listened to me instead of shooting your mouth off about things you didn't understand perhaps you could have made some money participating in the financial system like I did.

You were wrong on that one, and you are wrong on this one too.

The facts don't lie and you can talk yourself up all you like, but I'll still be laughing all the way to the bank.

Please note that once again you don't argue for the topic under discussion and resort to mindless character assassination.

If you have a point to make related to tipping please make your case, otherwise I must assume that you've got nothing intelligent left to say.

Isab Says:

"No one, but a pompous ass, or a Master of the Universe 16 year old lectures professionals like you, on the mechanisms of commerce like they were an idiot five year old."

If someone wants to be treated with respect they first show respect to others.

Crid is not, nor has he ever been in the habit of showing respect to anyone here who disagrees with him on any subject.

Even in this very discussion I began quite respectfully.

The order of operations is quite important.

If Crid wants to be a pompous ass, he will be treated accordingly.

If he wants to be friendly then I can reciprocate.

However I will not be all sunshine and roses to an insufferable idiot whose first statement to me was this:

"Well, Bunny, I don't have a problem anyway... But your proposal is obtuse, not audacious."

This isn't the statement of a "professional" and doesn't deserve the respect a person who behaves in a professional manner deserves.

It really boils down to the simple concept of "don't dish it out if you can't take it".

Now, if you'd like to continue this conversation in a more professional and respectful manner I am all for it. The ball is in your court.

Foster home?

Crid,

Is your behavior in this conversation honestly worthy of respect or consideration?

You don't even stay on topic, nor do you respond substantively to any point I have brought up.

And yet here you are talking about foster homes and childish behavior.

Adults pay people for their work, it is as simple as that.

Only entitled special snow flakes demand obligatory service from others for nothing more than a "thank you".

Since we're speculating about each other, my guess is you are a charity case or a con artist.

Whenever you would like to have an adult and respectful conversation feel free to behave like an respectful adult.

"Why are you against the concept of telling people honestly at the outset of a financial interaction that you don't buy into the standard waiter-customer payment paradigm?"- Orion

I am not against it. I have no problem paying a tip. I am quite generous for excellent service. If a waitstaff person does the bare minimum, but competently, I give 15%. If they are friendlier and more attentive I go up to 30%. For anything lesser or greater that 15-30% I also have a word with management.

I do not punish the waitstaff for kitchen errors and I always give them a chance to make it right if there is a problem.

I wonder though, how many people are really cheap and how many are just terrible at math and figuring out the tip?

> You don't even stay on topic, nor do you respond
> substantively to any point I have brought up.

You haven't brought up any points worthy of substantive response, so I've had to go meta. You've obviously not had an adult experience of the world, and figuring out why you haven't been better socialized is more interesting than your opinions.

The opacity of your ignorance has a name, I'm certain. Contenders—

☐ Institutionalization

☐ Extreme Medical / Developmental

☐ Continuing Parental Oversight (Other)

☐ Learning / Communication Disability

☐ Abridged / Fractured Education (e.g., nomadic childhood)

☐ ____________________________

I'm never wrong about this stuff. Let me know....



>For anything lesser or greater that
> 15-30% I also have a word with management.

This person is a sister.

LauraGr,

It seems like you and I are pretty much entirely in agreement on how the system is currently designed to function.

I'm sorry if my conversation with others resulted in the conclusion that I was pushing some other agenda because I'm not.

I believe a review of everything I've said since I joined the conversation would corroborate that position.

"I wonder though, how many people are really cheap and how many are just terrible at math and figuring out the tip?"

This is something that may be the case, however an inability to work out a tip on ones head is evidence for some pretty sub-standard math skills.

I don't believe it is because the math is so daunting that it is beyond the skill level of the typical person.

Instead I think that too many people are convinced that they need to calculate things to the nearest penny.

Just divide the bill pre-tax by 10, multiply by 2, and round up or down depending upon the quality of the service (assuming it is within the standard range). That usually gets you within the ballpark and should be very easy to calculate for anyone with even just an elementary level understanding of multiplication.

Crid Says:

"You haven't brought up any points worthy of substantive response, so I've had to go meta."

Yawn.

So your current stance is that I'm an institutionalized child who is incapable of formulating any statement of sufficient worth to merit a substantive response.

So as the "professional adult" that you'd like to claim to be you obviously did the "mature" thing and ignored me entirely, right?

Oh wait... instead you decided to "go meta".

Because that is obviously the most effective method for communicating with institutionalized adolescents.

Only an obtuse idiot would hold a position like that.

If I am dealing with an actual whiny brat of a child I don't "go meta". I either ignore them entirely, or I attempt to educate them in a clear and understandable fashion.

You are either a liar or an idiot if you believe the best way to communicate with an institutionalized child is to "go meta".

I think the far more reasonable conclusion to draw is that once again you recognized that you had nothing to say that countered any point I made... so instead you jumped the tracks and derailed the conversation with mindless drivel and insults.

Between the two of us someone certainly needs to work on their social skills. I'd place my money on the guy who decided that the socially appropriate way to interact with your host was to say this:

"Fuckthat Fuckthat Fuckthat Fuckthat Fuckthat FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKK......................"

I've only witnessed social skills of that "quality" on documentaries depicting actual institutionalized people or individuals who suffer from tourette syndrom.

But sure... the problem isn't with how you chose to interact with others. Your behavior and attitude have absolutely nothing to do with the response you receive from others.

Like I said... you are a special little snowflake. When you act like a spoiled little entitled brat, you don't deserve respect from other adults.

Orion, Crid is not "interacting" with you. This is the Internet,

Your failure to grasp the difference between theory and practice is the fundamental issue here.

Isab Says:

"Your failure to grasp the difference between theory and practice is the fundamental issue here."

Actually no. I fully comprehend both the theory and practice of the custom of tipping.

What is currently at issue is your contention that I had an obligation to treat Crid like a "professional" and that if I failed to do so that I was being a "pompous ass, or a Master of the Universe 16 year old."

And yet now you fully acknowledge that Crid was never "interacting" with me in any sort of a respectful or professional conversation.

So why don't we get the "theory and practice" of adult human communication down, shall we?

When one adult fails to "interact" with another adult in a professional or respectful manner, the other adult is under no theoretical or practical obligation to treat the first adult professionally.

I mean really... in your practical experience, if you are dealing with another adult who fails to "interact" with you in a conversation and instead resorts to derailing and insults do you then respond by being friendly and respectful?

Or is the more practical response to inform the other individual to go piss up a tree?

For god's sake... the issue isn't my "failure to grasp" anything.

The failure is your expectation that I have to treat another adult like they were my liege lord and that if I don't "know my place" then I'm the one being pompous and uppity.

Get real.

What a whiny bunch you two make.

Amy, where I am in agreement with you is what you cited from Nicole. That is why (barring totally ridiculous cases like the waiter just leaving or seriously above-and-beyond service) I tip around 20%.

I don't do it because of any "living wage" (insert breathing money bag image), but because that is the top end of standard (15-20%) and it would be unfair to go back on a tacit agreement. I choose the upper end because I like to enjoy myself when I go out, I try for quiet times, and I want to encourage an all-around good experience... not because of somebody else's living expenses expectations, but because it is, in the modern social setup, the right thing to do.