I'm not sure about point 1.

I am neither accountant, economist, or doctor, but I would imagine that polio vaccines are free to society, and even pay dividends.

Similarly, I think it could be argued that free birth control is cheaper for society than unwanted births, or having society pay for pregnancies from girls/women, and then pay for food stamps, or medicaid.

There's also the claim that abortion cuts down on crime, so toss in the costs of broken windows.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalized_abortion_and_crime_effect

If abortion cuts down on crime, I would again speculate that so does free and readily available birth control.

No, Jerry - NOTHING is "free".

Imagine for a moment that you are a doctor. You have a pallet of vaccine delivered. You must now decide how much effort to expend administering it vs. other treatments. That's beyond the delivery costs. Is UPS "free"?

This is why THIS is the solution. It won't be approved by a Congress intent on consolidating yet more power for itself, and it won't be approved by people who believe liars when they are told, "Vote for me and I will get you FREE STUFF!"
But it's the only solution that gets open mouths and grasping hands out of the line between you and a doctor.

I am neither accountant, economist, or doctor, but I would imagine that polio vaccines are free to society, and even pay dividends. -- jerry at June 27, 2013 12:25 AM

While the vaccine may be free to people in general, there is still some company that is paying for employees, labs, the equipment, the electric bills, etc. to get every vial out the door. And the government is usually paying for that. The cost benefit ratio makes that a good idea.

The thing is that government doesn't have it's own money. Governments don't produce anything that is normally sold in a store or bought voluntarily. So every penny the government spends is money collected from us (you, me, rad, Amy and the rest of the population).

So while the government paying for birth control sounds like a good idea, the problem is that when you start giving out free stuff it takes the personal responsibility off the recipient and the incentive to use it correctly and act with the knowledge that the pill is not 100% guaranteed.

Point 2:

I'm an American living in Canada (BC) and have had to accept certain realities of "universal coverage": Very few doctors available--appt. times are scheduled months out for illnesses that need care quickly; good luck finding docs that are accepting new patients; if you don't like your doctor, good luck finding one that is accepting new patients.

Also, and most annoying, wait times for routine diagnostic procedures like MRI's, ultrasound, etc. are extreme. Takes a month or so just to get scheduled!

Luckily (for now), we live near the border and can go south for needed care.

Here's a paper demonstrating vaccination is a freebie.

For a public investment of $36 billion, the US economy has had an economic benefit of $180 billion (all in 2006 dollars).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17184390

Risk Anal. 2006 Dec;26(6):1423-40.

Retrospective cost-effectiveness analyses for polio vaccination in the United States.

Thompson KM, Tebbens RJ.

Kids Risk Project, Harvard School of Public Health,
Harvard University, MA 02115, USA. kimt@hsph.harvard.edu

Abstract

The history of polio vaccination in the United States spans 50 years and includes different phases of the disease, multiple vaccines, and a sustained significant commitment of resources. We estimated cost-effectiveness ratios and assessed the net benefits of polio vaccination applicable at various points in time from the societal perspective and we discounted these back to appropriate points in time. We reconstructed vaccine price data from available sources and used these to retrospectively estimate the total costs of the U.S. historical polio vaccination strategies (all costs reported in year 2002 dollars). We estimate that the United States invested approximately US dollars 35 billion (1955 net present value, discount rate of 3%) in polio vaccines between 1955 and 2005 and will invest approximately US dollars 1.4 billion (1955 net present value, or US dollars 6.3 billion in 2006 net present value) between 2006 and 2015 assuming a policy of continued use of inactivated poliovirus vaccine (IPV) for routine vaccination. The historical and future investments translate into over 1.7 billion vaccinations that prevent approximately 1.1 million cases of paralytic polio and over 160,000 deaths (1955 net present values of approximately 480,000 cases and 73,000 deaths). Due to treatment cost savings, the investment implies net benefits of approximately US dollars 180 billion (1955 net present value), even without incorporating the intangible costs of suffering and death and of averted fear. Retrospectively, the U.S. investment in polio vaccination represents a highly valuable, cost-saving public health program. Observed changes in the cost-effectiveness ratio estimates over time suggest the need for living economic models for interventions that appropriately change with time. This article also demonstrates that estimates of cost-effectiveness ratios at any single time point may fail to adequately consider the context of the investment made to date and the importance of population and other dynamics, and shows the importance of dynamic modeling.

http://www.who.int/immunization_supply/financing/value_vaccination_bloom_canning_weston.pdf

"Immunization provides a large return on a small investment—higher than most other health interventions, and at least as high as non-health development interventions such as education"

Yes, Jerry, you have demonstrated that the Vaccine program is government funded and supported. This however, does not make it free, if you take your kid to a private physician to get the shots.

In my city, if you really want your kids vaccinated for free, you can take them down to public health but they request a donation, if you are not on Medicaid.

Jerry reminds of one of my favorite cartoons. It shows a husband and his husband (honoring same sex marriage) talking. The caption reads "I can't afford to save any more money."

Jerry, it looks to me as if you confuse a return on investment with cost.

I suggest you run the numbers for the American space program. Nobody argues its cost - especially those who have no ability or inclination to evaluate the ROI from generations of probe and manual exploration of the cosmos. Lots of people argue the returns - especially those who think that those dollars should come directly to them to pay rent and buy groceries.

The thing is - the benefits of any big effort, like vaccination, aren't tied to any one person. The distribution of returns isn't even equal to the debts paid by individuals towards the project.

No, it's not "free". TANSTAAFL.

Radwaste is right - NOTHING is "free". Even if you can take your kid to the clinic and they give it a "free" vaccination, somewhere along the line some taxpayer paid the cost. Free to YOU, maybe.

And now you understand why the middle class is fed up.

Also, comparing polio immunizations to birth control is a bad analogy. You have no choice about whether or not you contract polio; if you aren't vaccinated, it either gets you or it doesn't. Further, there is the herd-immunity effect; having a large percentage of the population immunized protects a small percentage who cannot be immunized for whatever reason.

Pregnancy, on the other hand, does not strike randomly; it is the result of voluntary behavior. Rewarding irresponsible behavior merely allows the group that engages in it to blackmail the rest of society. Further, there is no herd effect with birth control; however many women do use birth control provides no benefit to those that don't.