About The Bora Controversy: If There's Anything That Makes Women Unequal To Men, It's The Need To Be Treated Like Fragile Pieces Of China
Laura Helmuth explains the controversy at Slate -- using what I consider loaded language, filled with assumption (that something was "harassment," simply because that's what the person who experienced it decided to deem it):
A writer named Monica Byrne wrote on her blog about being harassed by one of the most influential people in the science blogging world, Bora Zivkovic. He founded an extremely popular conference for science bloggers, established science blog networks at various publications, and now (at least as I write) runs the well-respected collection of blogs at Scientific American. His nickname is the Blogfather. One common route into a science writing career in the past several years has been through Zivkovic: He routinely publishes young writers and promotes their stories with his large social media audience. Zivkovic has always been extremely solicitous of young journalists, generous with his time, charming, enthusiastic, gregarious. A Twitter meme popped up at science blogging conferences: #IHuggedBora.Zivkovic has a lot of friends, and after Byrne's story went public, many of them expressed support for him, and others questioned Byrne's decision to name him.
Zivkovic admitted to the incident, apologized, and said it was not "behavior that I have engaged in before or since."
Only apparently it was. Another science writer, Hannah Waters, then described similar experiences:
I saw him at various events and he began flirting a little. It didn't ring any alarm bells; he is flirtatious by nature. But sometimes talk would veer into more uncomfortable territory, but only vaguely uncomfortable, which made it hard to call out. He would talk about how he gets to hang out with so many smart, beautiful women for his job (as if we should be flattered), make offhand comments about his own sex life, and occasionally tell me that he loved me. Once, while the two of us were outside Ninth Ward in New York City at a science tweetup, he bought a flower for his wife, who was inside. The seller gave him an extra for free, which he gave to me, joking that I was his "concubine." I didn't even know how to respond, awkwardly laughing it off, but fled the scene without goodbyes soon after. "I just want to call him out when he makes any kind of offhand comment," I wrote to my best friend later. "But what I could lose by doing so is too great, so it's really just degrading."Waters and Byrne were careful to be precise and not exaggerate what happened to them, which is that they felt very uncomfortable when their conversations with one of the most powerful people in their profession turned sexual. They weren't raped or groped, and they suffered no obvious career setbacks by failing to take Zivkovic up on what they perceived as the implicit request for sex. But they felt lousy and confused. Here's what I found most distressing in Waters' post: "At my most insecure moments, I still come back to this: Have I made it this far, not based on my work and worth, but on my value as a sexual object? When am I going to be found out?"
I told Waters directly and repeat here that she and Byrne are talented writers who are not faking it. But of course they wonder about how their career trajectories will be perceived, and I'm sure many other people who have gotten a break or a boost from Zivkovic have the same nagging worries.
Oh, please.
Lots of people get a leg up from somebody -- because they were in the right place at the right time, because they asked, because they went to the same school, because they're Jewish or because they're a WASP, because they're black, Chinese, or not a man.
I actually had been in the dark about this Bora furor because of a big deadline. A friend in science emailed me about it, wanting to know my thoughts, and here's what I emailed him back:
From what I just read, this is ridiculous bullshit.Kingsley Browne is so good on this stuff -- terrif book, "Biology at Work," about what sexual harassment really is. It is coercive behavior -- fuck me or you lose your job -- or it is repeated behavior that turns a workplace hostile.
This wasn't a workplace, even if she was looking to do some work. She isn't employed by him.
He didn't say, "Fuck me or you don't get the job. He didn't even imply it. He just had some stuff on his mind and unloaded. It happened to be sexual. It happened to make her uncomfortable.
If you are out to lunch and somebody gets into an uncomfortable topic, if you want to play in the real world and not in the kitchen, well, grow a fucking pair, girlfriend, and tell him the line of conversation makes you unfuckingcomfortable!
Apparently, she eventually said she was uncomfortable -- via email:
Since meeting, I've felt a lot of reluctance about pitching to you, and I wanted to let you know why. I felt very uncomfortable during our meeting last week. The talk veered towards sex because you led it there--first describing yourself as a "very sexual person," and then going on to describe your wife's sexual history (which I can't imagine she'd want me to know), the state of your present sex life, and the near-affair you had with a younger woman. I thought all of these topics were incredibly inappropriate to discuss with someone you'd just met, especially one who was interested in working together in a professional capacity and had initiated the meeting as such.Sometimes, in life, people will make you uncomfortable: By talking about religion, sex, their politics, or something else. If you can't stand the conversation, the adult thing to do is to say something about it. Not just sit there.
I met Barb Oakley because of this blog item, which goes into more about this -- this women are fragile pussies business.
If there's anything that makes women unequal to men, it's the need to be treated like pieces of china.
I'm nobody's wounded duck and I don't need laws or social opprobrium to protect me against conversation.
I HAVE A BIG MOUTH AND I AM MORE THAN READY TO USE IT. (That said, I don't mind people talking about sex, and if I'm not interested in sex with them and they are with me, I'll let them know. If they don't then hold a steak knife to my throat and try to fuck me, we're good.)
PS It is a violation of Bora's privacy that she blogged their private lunch conversation simply over being offended by a conversation that veered off into sex, and why? Because she was too fragile a lily to speak up and say "Let's change the subject."
My friend later sent me two more links about this. This. And this.
Science writer Seth Mnookin, whose writing and thinking I generally have great respect for, is wrong:
We can't say, on the one hand, that we want to be a community where women are treated equitably and fairly and then on the other hand say that those among us who do not treat women equitably and fairly get a one-time free pass.
Say a man was denigrating the religious to an academic he met with. This is done a lot in academia. Say that person was religious -- or just offended. Do they just sit there and suck it up or ask him to change the subject?
Treating women equally means expecting them to buck up and act like adults and speak their piece when they want something to stop.
And again, what went on does not rise to the legal definition of sexual harassment, but now, some women have elevated any talk of sex, jokes about sex, or compliments about a woman's new boots to sexual harassment.
Oh, and what Bora is is probably European -- not all squeamish about sex, and he probably expects (wrongly, obviously) that American women will act like female adults and not defenseless elementary school girls.
And finally, I'm guessing that there are many others who feel as I do but who can only, at best, privately email Bora their support, because of the witch-hunt that academia so easily becomes when somebody doesn't toe the PC line.
"filled with assumption (that something was "harassment," simply because that's what the person who experienced it decided to deem it):"
This is the corporate definition of harassment.
Which is why I won't complement a woman, or mention anything that isn't carefully neutral, and business related. I can't risk it. ESPECIALLY if a woman can be upset on another's behalf.
SwissArmyD at October 17, 2013 10:25 AM
Kingsley Browne, with whom I corresponded on this subject a few weeks ago, points out in his book that for something to rise to the legal definition of harassment, it must be persistent and severe.
This doesn't mean you can't get in trouble for something that's less.
Amy Alkon at October 17, 2013 10:37 AM
Like SwissArmyD, I generally keep my mouth shut at work.
If I'm away from work, and I'm feeling gregarious I may say something like nice boots. If it is someone I know and know they'll get a laugh, I will probably follow that with I said BOOTS. BOOTS!
When in Rome and all that. And especially in academic-ish circles. Geez, he must have been wrapped up in his work to not notice.
I R A Darth Aggie at October 17, 2013 11:31 AM
His nickname is the Blogfather
I thought that was Glenn Reynolds...
Sigivald at October 17, 2013 11:36 AM
Amy, I am glad you picked up so immediately that the one thing Monica didn't do was say "stop" or "no" or anything.
It's also not clear what that meeting between Monica and Bora was. She doesn't provide much evidence that it was a business meeting to discuss blogging at SciAM -- seems to be two Facebook friends and online friends who had a lunch both of whom had conflicting needs and wants from the other, both of them perhaps objectifying the other.
I don't know why Bora brought us sex, but it's clear Monica did not see Bora as a human but as an object for her to use to further her career.
I don't understand why when it was dealt with a year ago with apologies from Bora and SciAM, why it needed to be made even more public with naming a year later.
How was Monica's public disclosure this time with Bora's name a year later, after an apology from Bora and SciAM different from revenge porn?
jerry at October 17, 2013 1:20 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2013/10/17/if_theres_anyth.html#comment-3986541">comment from jerryAmy, I am glad you picked up so immediately that the one thing Monica didn't do was say "stop" or "no" or anything.
This is very important. Thanks, Jerry.
It's mystifying to me that grown women can have, I guess, grown up without being instructed ot taught to assert themselves.
There's a victim culture amongst some women -- and many who identify as feminists are into it.
I'm reminded of the girl at the digital something or other conference who heard two guys telling a dirty joke behind her -- not about her, either -- and went and reported them. This came out in social media/on blogs and they were subsequently fired.
This cannot make people eager to do business with women. I also don't want to be treated with kid gloves or have people need to restrict their speech around me.
Amy Alkon at October 17, 2013 1:44 PM
Do women like Ms Byrne ever think back to the dark days at the dawn of feminism, when their sex was barred from so many professions & universities? Back then, piggish men justified this on the grounds that women were too feeble, neurotic, and hysterical for the Man's World of science or math or medicine or what have you. If the ghosts of those long-dead chauvinists are still hovering around us, they must feel vindicated when they hear about ninnies like her, or the ones who clutch their pearls & faint when the President of Harvard suggests that the preponderance of men in science & technology might just possibly reflect natural inclination.
Martin at October 17, 2013 2:23 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2013/10/17/if_theres_anyth.html#comment-3986595">comment from MartinGreat point, Martin. "I Am Woman, Hear Me...Whine."
This is pearl-clutching without the pearls.
And now, men have bought into it.
Amy Alkon at October 17, 2013 2:41 PM
Well, dang. Have you heard of the storm generated by Rebecca Watson, because some guy alone with her in an elevator apparently asked her up to his room "for coffee" or something?
Otherwise reasonable people have lost their damned minds over it.
Ladies, there will be jerks, pervs and just plain creepy people around all the time. You're going to have to "woman up" and deal with it, because no one else is in any sort of position to do it for you, even if they could.
Radwaste at October 17, 2013 3:39 PM
Obviously, I don't support Bora using his job to try to find a mistress. There is a time and a place for that sort of thing, generally Craig's List late at night or one of those dating services for married people that advertise on the radio. That's not what you should be doing at work, any more than you should be gambling or playing World of Warcraft. So they fired him. So be it.
And our natural response, always, should be not to blame the victim. I tried reading these accounts with sympathy but then came to the conclusion that if I ever had a niece that wrote something like this I'd knock her upside the head.
There are women in the world who are truly powerless, who have three kids to feed and have to put up with all kinds of garbage from horrendous bosses.
That is not who these women are. These are people of privilege who are appropriating the language that describes the experiences of another class of women to dramatize comparatively trivial events in their own life. To what end?
It's self-involved nonsense and it's gross.
These "exposure of harassment" stories follow a formula where women give up all their power for relatively low stakes (or, in this case, no stakes). They are counter productive and harmful and make me want to vomit. If young women can't figure out how the world works for themselves they need roll models with big mouths, not ones that sit still while some lech talks about his sex life.
Thank you for writing this.
I comment anonymously, of course, because I am a woman scientist and the witches hunt you if don't fully agree with their weird caricature of feminism.
Anonymous at October 17, 2013 5:05 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2013/10/17/if_theres_anyth.html#comment-3986720">comment from AnonymousThank you so much, Anonymous - absolutely right on these women.
Amy Alkon at October 17, 2013 5:42 PM
"Rebecca Watson, because some guy alone with her in an elevator apparently asked her up to his room "for coffee" or something"
Yeah I heard about it and it cracked me up. She also was in several panels discussing how oppressed women are in Atheist conferences.
I've e-mailed Amy that I've been the subject of sexual harassment by managers. It's gross but her advice on how to stop it really really helped (thanks!). I wont go into it because it's in an excellent column.
However Anonymous captures the whole thing perfectly.
Ppen at October 17, 2013 6:21 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2013/10/17/if_theres_anyth.html#comment-3986750">comment from PpenThanks, Ppen - and you handled it well, I have to say, by acting like an adult in charge of your life, not a fragile flower petal.
Amy Alkon at October 17, 2013 6:25 PM
I have wanted to be romantically involved with female co-workers (no supervisor/supervised situations) in the past and have been shut down in the past. Usually in a friendly manner.
That means that the lady in question realizes how to be an adult.
Then I had one co-worker recently (over a year) that had another co-worker send me an e-mail about it. That made me realize she is a lady I never want to be involved with. If she can't stand up for herself, then she isn't ready to be an adult on her own. She's in her 30's.
Jim P. at October 17, 2013 6:54 PM
"And our natural response, always, should be not to blame the victim"
I disagree completely with this. Our response should be going into it with an open mind, NOT assume one person is a victim. If you go into any situation with a don't blame the victim mindset. Then before hearing any evidence or both sides you have passed judgment that one side is a victim and the other is a victimizer. That bias should be ruled out.
Joe J at October 17, 2013 9:57 PM
"ESPECIALLY if a woman can be upset on another's behalf."
That is precisely what happened to me. A female co-worker decided that I had "harassed" another woman by something I said in a private conversation behind a locked door (she used a drinking glass to eavesdrop). The co-worker had never met the "harassed" woman, who was not a company empolyee, wasn't someone we did business with, and didn't live in the same city. I was guilty upon accusation; I was specifically told that no defense was possible. That ended my career trajectory with that company, while the co-worker received accolades, privileges, and a promotion.
Cousin Dave at October 18, 2013 6:46 AM
Sweet Jesus.
She is conflating attempted statutory rape with a man talking about sex too much:
https://medium.com/the-power-of-harassment/3e809dfadd77
"BORA REPLIED: [this is an excerpt from a longer email] I am not a suicidal type, but I see no reason to live any more….."
Now we can only wait and see if the lynch mob succeeds.
Anonymous at October 18, 2013 8:10 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2013/10/17/if_theres_anyth.html#comment-3987819">comment from AnonymousA science writer, Kate Clancy, has her panties in a wad over my Bora post and my "internalized sexism." (On Twitter.) Right -- so expecting women to behave the way we'd expect men to -- to speak up if they're bothered -- is now "sexism."
Disgusting about what's been done to him and over what, a little lunch conversation that veered into mention of sexual topics? Fuck. A woman who's too small and fragile to deal with that -- like an adult, by saying, "Hey, I'm a little uncomfortable about this" -- doesn't belong in the work world or really, out of an apron and the pie-baking kitchen.
I wrote an email in support to Bora, and I hope others will, too, especially respected academics who believe they can't afford to come out and publicly support him.
Amy Alkon at October 18, 2013 9:52 AM
The sorts of things these women faced on the job may be obnoxious, and perhaps in the next plane of existence none of that will exist.
But it's actually the same sort of shit men (and women) go through on a daily basis at work, where in spite of the various petty fights and insults and humiliations and worries they still just buckle down and do the job because putting bread on the table is what's important.
So tilt at windmills ladies.
Looking forward to when we legislate and overregulate all human behavior to ensure anything out of line is punished severely.
jerry at October 18, 2013 9:57 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2013/10/17/if_theres_anyth.html#comment-3987841">comment from jerryAs I just tweeted:
Amy Alkon at October 18, 2013 10:11 AM
What happened to "Women Who Run With The Wolves"? Book for now is apparently "Women Who Lie There Like Baby Seals" Amy.
This is like an Alinsky rule on appropriating power by re-writing the conversation.
“Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.”
Demonize when you can... instead of trying to run with wolves, you declare that wolves are EVIL and they need to be hunted by all correct thinking people.
SwissArmyD at October 18, 2013 11:12 AM
Amy, you have a very foul vocabulary. I'm going to I'm going to report you to someone.
Sandi Loveless at October 18, 2013 11:58 AM
I am 52 yrs old now...got a lot of catcalls from strangers back in my younger days. Wow, this women would have positively wilted on the spot if she had been on the receiving end of some of the stuff that has been said to me.
But - I RELISH the opportunity to get harassed, as it gives me the chance to stand up for myself, be a little aggressive, raise my voice, even yell a little. Each and every time - they shut up, put their tail between their legs, and wander away. Jesus, its not that hard to put a smarmy, wealsly guy in his place - child's play in fact. Maybe its because I'm blessed by being Italian and raised in NY state: a few "Guido" come-ons are great training - if the smell of cologne doesn't knock you out.
April Prey at October 18, 2013 11:59 AM
I am in my early 50s and when I started in my work life there were men who seemed to want to take advantage of my young youthfulness....I didn't whine, I just learned how to deal with them.
Was this guy a bore? Probably....would I want to hang out with him...probably not. But nothing he did or said in any way threatened these women. They need to pull up their big girl panties and get on with it.
BTW, I know women in my workplace who are terrible at managing men...this goes both ways.
carey at October 18, 2013 11:59 AM
People can laugh at this all they want, and shake their heads over it all. But things like this induce men to govern all business conduct as if one woman could blast his career. And if they don't, some investigation initiated by an "offended" bystander or the EEOC will.
So you construct an artificial barrier with a lot of women: "nice boots" is about as far as compliments go. You don't leave the bar when a female colleague does; you don't walk her back to her room; you let someone else drive her to a meeting; god forbid that you pat her on a shoulder or the back-if you're not deemed a "bra checker," you seen "touching."
Never talk about sex--in any harassment investigation or trial, 5 remarks over 10 years sounds like a torrent; even an innocent discussion she initiates is one you will be deemed to have extended to "inappropriate" areas.
Maybe this is good--I don't want my daughters annoyed by some pest of a man. And this does not extend to all women, since some are easily received as "reasonable." But by and large, a careful man doesn't take the chance. Women sense the barrier, and complain they are not "included" in events, but its not worth my career.
Bemis Weatherby at October 18, 2013 12:09 PM
Women generally are much less interested in sex than men, primarily because opportunity comes to them whereas with men, we have to work at it. Most men are accustomed to rejection and expect it. By the time they are grown they understand it's a numbers game and routinely probe for sexual interest from females they encounter. There is no other way to score sex, none at all. Men are made to crave sex and think about it continously. This is not a choice they make, it is how they are made. Criminalizing it won't change it, it will just elevate the misery of human interaction one more level. For heaven's sake, just slap the guy. It won't bother him at all and he may interpret that to mean you're probably not interested in having sex with him.
willis at October 18, 2013 12:29 PM
Because the threat of a bogus sexual harassment claim is so great and HR so biased toward women and against men, the approved solution is to cut women out of your conversation at or around work. You can not have a full and open, free-ranging conversation with women within earshot when your job is at stake.
You should do your business with them and talk harmless baby-talk to them. Then, when the women leave the room, you have your real conversation with the men, none of whom will ever file a harassment complaint against you ever.
There are a few older women you can let into your circle at work, but including young women, 25 to 35, in honest conversation is career suicide. Smile and make nice but don't trust them with your true opinion because everything they disagree with is sexual harassment to them.
Steve Gregg at October 18, 2013 12:38 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2013/10/17/if_theres_anyth.html#comment-3987995">comment from Bemis WeatherbyMaybe this is good--I don't want my daughters annoyed by some pest of a man.
Then teach them to speak up instead of just feeling upset and stuffing it.
There is the jury of Twitterdom, where they roast people who say things that are uncomfortable for certain other people, but in real life, there will frequently be no one to tattle to, and what will they do then?
Amy Alkon at October 18, 2013 12:39 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2013/10/17/if_theres_anyth.html#comment-3987996">comment from Sandi LovelessAmy, you have a very foul vocabulary. I'm going to I'm going to report you to someone.
Thank you! For the compliment! And glad you're joking. Although the thought police -- self-appointed in addition to the government ones -- are growing in number.
Amy Alkon at October 18, 2013 12:40 PM
This put me in mind of the dustup Linus Torvald had with a young woman because Linus, father and keeper of Linux, chewed out a programmer. The fragile piece of china decided to reprimand Torvalds for not being polite even though she had little do with it. It's like some first year grad student filing a complaint against Nils Bohr for not having legible handwriting.
These complaints made under the color of pc are actually a way for people with little or no accomplishments maybe through inexperience or maybe lack of talent to completely disgrace people who have worked hard for years and achieved quite a lot. I would say its not fair, but just can't bring myself to do it.
Alan R at October 18, 2013 12:58 PM
Ironic - it sounds like this woman (and probably others of her ilk) have basically the same problem men are widely observed as having: an awkwardness discussing feelings, which leads to being silent when a simple direct statement would have been better. Granted, the feelings involved are a little different (maybe; ever been the one guy in a group of women who starting chatting about "female issues" - embarrassment and discomfort are similar feelings whatever the cause.)
The difference is - if the woman complains later about what caused her awkwardness, she's validated and it's all his fault. If the guy complains later about what caused his awkwardness, he's just a stupid wuss (at best.) In other words, she's a delicate flower to be protected even from her own deficiencies - hardly a feminist POV.
Alan at October 18, 2013 12:58 PM
Great commentary, Amy. Spot on. These so called 'feminists' have forgotten 'I am woman hear me roar', and retreat behind their petticoats. You don't like what some guy is saying? Tell him so. If he won't stop, tell him to fuck off. If he won't fuck off, kick him in the goodies.
bob c at October 18, 2013 1:07 PM
Amy Alkon posted at October 17, 2013 1:44 PM: "I'm reminded of the girl at the digital something or other conference who heard two guys telling a dirty joke behind her -- not about her, either -- and went and reported them. This came out in social media/on blogs and they were subsequently fired."
Only one of the men was fired. But the woman was eventually fired, too. There was an apparent denial of service attack on her company's website.
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/03/how-dongle-jokes-got-two-people-fired-and-led-to-ddos-attacks/
NateWhilk at October 18, 2013 1:21 PM
It seems like these young women have the concept of standing up for themselves but don't have any useful practical skills. Not all of us are like the Italian lady upthread. We aren't born knowing how to push back, we suppress and then we stew when a very simple, easy, and not at all risky, "Woah, I really don't want to hear about your sex life," accompanied with a smile would have ended it.
Bottom line is that a whole lot of people, and possibly more men than not, really and honestly don't know where the lines are. They can't tell. Maybe they're aspie. Maybe they're just not very good at reading other people. When they trespass over some social threshold they don't even notice it was there if you don't *tell* them.
Women are supposed to be good at communication. It shouldn't be hard to practice and get comfortable with those immediate responses, jokes and deflections that really are painless and work so well.
Synova at October 18, 2013 1:37 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2013/10/17/if_theres_anyth.html#comment-3988062">comment from AlanAlso, waiting and stewing over something makes it get bigger and bigger, when shutting it down means it's over.
Amy Alkon at October 18, 2013 1:58 PM
1970s and '80s female drunk on Phil Donahue and Oprah: "I want men to open up and show their feelings."
1990s to present female: "But not like that!"
Micha Elyi at October 18, 2013 2:00 PM
What is happening is that every definition of every "crime" that disproportionately effects straight, white Christian men is being expanded, while at the same time every excuse is being afforded to everyone else.
Part of the liberal war on American culture, in order to better replace it with socialist utopia.
Smarty at October 18, 2013 2:01 PM
My husband lost his security career when he caught a co-worker sleeping on the job - who then accused him of sexual harassment. No doubt you can all fill in the rest of the story...
werewife at October 18, 2013 2:31 PM
The entitled woman - http://www.modern-females.com/2013/10/the-entitled-woman.html
Says it all about the modern woman...
TreeHugger at October 18, 2013 2:44 PM
Steve @ 12:38:
"Because the threat of a bogus sexual harassment claim is so great and HR so biased toward women and against men, the approved solution is to cut women out of your conversation at or around work."
********************
This is the approach my partner takes. He's one of the most polite, reserved people you could ever meet; half-Asian, I've told him over the years they invented the word "inscrutable" just for him. Forget sex..he'll barely engage a woman to talk about the weather, much less anything more provocative! As introverted as he is, he respects a person's space to the point he's called "cold" by many. He's the LAST person you'd expect to harass anyone; he simply won't engage with you unless its worthwhile and about science or math.
And yet - even HE feels the need to protect himself by shunning any and all females at work to the extent possible. So I know exactly what Steve means.
April at October 18, 2013 3:39 PM
Not taking anything away from the points made here - I am not shocked. As someone who had a rich correspondence with Bora when he was still an anonymous blogger calling himself Coturnix I predicted he's end up in trouble for harassment 6-7 years ago. He was, bluntly, a terrible bigot in a number of ways and this seemed to extend to women in actuality, regardless of his other statements. I actually ended my correspondence with him in '07 about something very similar to this - and I'm a guy
Deep Thought at October 18, 2013 4:13 PM
I'm a man, but I've had worse experiences than the ones these women described in dealing with customers over the years. I've been in situations where my customer has been rude to waitstaff, to me, or made offensive comments about other people. Occasionally it's been bad enough to make me break off the encounter. More often I've put up with it because it's business, and I'm willing to put up with a certain amount of bullshit in order to make a living. Do these women think that they are entitled to go through life without ever being offended? Do they think they have the right to conscript this guy into their service on their terms? Sometimes the person with whom you need to deal turns out to be an asshole. You just have to decide whether the thing you need from him is worth putting up with his assholishness.
mikesixes at October 18, 2013 4:38 PM
If I have the opportunity, I will say this to any and every woman who has gamed the system to get ahead:
"Congratulations. You will now be known as dishonorable, regardless of legal efforts on your part. You have just crippled your ability to work with any team. This has been and will be noticed by everyone who has an ounce of perception. You have, in fact, provided the glass for your own ceiling."
This has actually occurred at SRS. The male worker gets two weeks off without pay, an effective $3000 fine at his level, for a smartass remark she took to HR. HR never followed up with the company line, and quickly, no one would work with the accuser. At the next opportunity, whe was laid off. The remark was not overtly sexual in nature, having at its root her unwillingness to move swiftly in a support job, which tribal knowledge cemented in the tacit acknowledgement that the offender was a known jackass but fast and thorough at his work, while she mainly whined about having to work.
He still works here. She doesn't, and that's OK.
There's a principle at work here: If you need special treatment, you are NOT an equal. Period.
Radwaste at October 18, 2013 6:02 PM
Steve and Bemis Weatherby have it right. As long as employment law allows any woman to destroy any man's career with one unsupported accusation, the only safe attitude is to back away from any woman in the office as from a live cobra.
Granted, many, maybe most women would never DO that without good cause, but it only takes one.
This is why anyone who wants real sexual equality needs to push for an end to these laws (and the similar rules now being imposed on universities and other venues). Because as long as they last, people will find ways to segregate themselves without you being able to prove sex discrimination.
jdgalt at October 18, 2013 7:51 PM
I too am a model of polite reserved deference to my few female colleagues. I generally do not talk to them unless required in a job function, and restrict my conversation only to sentences directly facilitating the interaction necessary to effect that function. I make sure never to look directly at them, and always maintain a respectful distance.
I don't want them to feel uncomfortable or think I am entertaining thoughts--of any kind, much less inappropriate ones--about them. Of course I still hold doors and say please and thank you--but it's inconceivable to me that I would mention something about their appearances or inquire about their personal lives.
I'm not a chatty person at work anyway: I'm much too busy in the first place, so it's not as though I'm a font of small talk with male colleagues either. But with the men I will not worry about venturing an honest personal thought or give an opinion about something non-work-related.
That way I stay off their radars and I'm insulated as much as practically possible from a visit with HR over a mistaken comment, hurt feeling, or G-d forbid, secret agenda.
b at October 18, 2013 7:56 PM
I also have come to a personal policy of interacting with women at work only as much as necessary to make it look like I'm not avoiding them or discriminating against them. It's been ten years since I've mentored a woman at work or made a friend. I haven't had my career derailed by penny ante charges, but I've seen it happen nearby half a dozen times. Nearly every man in corporate America who isn't in thrall to his own hormones has the same policy. We hardly ever talk about it with other men because that's the first rule of fight club. This unintended consequence of PC and harassment regimes is, next to females own self-sabotage, the biggest drag on female workplace advancement.
anonymous at October 19, 2013 6:13 AM
I avoid women at work like the plague.
When I'm on my own time and working on my own company and hiring a contractor, I toss out the offers from women, not without a regretful sigh however, because some of the work in portfolio's is spot on excellent.
But I can't risk hiring some harassment crazy woman that will file a sexual harassment lawsuit because I thought her design needed more work before I was satisfied.
If women want to know what is holding them back in the work place, they need only look to the woman on their left, the woman to their right, and quite possibly look in the mirror.
I saw a female soldier that was not just morbidly obese, but utterly hideous, file a sexual harassment complaint against her 18 year veteran supervisor (whose wife as goddamn gorgeous) after he told her to stop spending so much time surfing the commercial internet and get some work done, then try to get another female soldier to go along with her story to give it some credibility.
He got transferred to a more dangerous post, she got sent back to the states and actually still got an award after the deployment was done...all this, and the complaint was ruled to have no merit and subsequently dropped.
Robert at October 19, 2013 7:12 AM
This is the most depressing post I've read yet on the Bora matter.
Anyone excusing Bora's repeated behavior is an apologist, in my view, unable to see the many factors involved here and somehow victim-blaming. Just like the people who wonder, in a domestic violence situation, why didn't the woman just leave.
Wow. Nothing I can say here will change your mind, but you have a startling lack of insight and empathy.
Van at October 19, 2013 9:12 AM
The woman who tattled kept silent about her discomfort at the time of the conversation because she wanted something from Bora. She desired to advance herself by persuading him to publish her writing, if I have the story straight. Her silence may have been motivated by a cowardly fear of conflict but it was also deliberately manipulative. Any woman who acts "nice" when she doesn't feel nice at all is doing it to deceive and manipulate people to her benefit. Though we all do this sometimes, it takes brass balls to try to re-brand it as "being too accommodating."
At my job, where I deal with truck drivers all day, a guy who needed my help was being a total dick one day. I was trying to give him a good verbal shove backward, to get him to stop, without cussing at him, so I suggested that if he needed a favor from me he might not want to be so hostile. I just couldn't quickly think of any other word that was acceptable at work. I could see him back up a million miles because he was thinking exactly what the men upthread have said, that he was about to enter HR hell over a harassment complaint. I would never do this--I'd just quit if it were that bad. It would have been better if I'd just told him to come back when he could stop being an asshole.
Miss Conduct at October 19, 2013 9:20 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2013/10/17/if_theres_anyth.html#comment-3989753">comment from VanNothing I can say here will change your mind, but you have a startling lack of insight and empathy.
On the contrary, Van, my insight and empathy lead me to give women advice so they aren't victims but full adult people who can stand up for themselves.
"Insight and empathy" should lead me to tell them "Forget being equal. You are weak little baby seals who cannot fend for yourselves."
How does this tactic help? Please do let me know.
And FYI, there are frequent times people commenting here have persuaded me to change my mind.
You haven't bothered to do more than whine -- much like the women you think are right, apparently.
Furthermore, equating a woman who is out to lunch and hears some conversation that makes her uncomfortable, or who even has a man make a pass at her that makes her uncomfortable, with domestic violence is really something.
What's not even surprising is the nonthink that goes into your position stated here.
Regarding "excusing" Bora's behavior, I really haven't talked about it at all. What should I have done in your mind, say, "It is horribly crass to talk about one's sex life at a business lunch"? Why would it be a form of victimization?
It only is if a woman has been indoctrinated, as you apparently have, to see herself as a passive bunny waiting for life to do itself to her instead of opening her adult trap and saying, "This conversation makes me uncomfortable."
What kind of adult woman, who is psychologically healthy, festers for a year over an uncomfortable lunch conversation instead of speaking up at the time? If you don't speak up at the time, the thing you do as an adult is to say, "Gee, I should have said something. I'll say it by email now" (a day or so later). The fact that this woman expects to be treated as special rather than equal, and the fact that so many women, including the Twitter-shrieking science writer Kate Clancy, find this the right way for women to be treated, shows that feminism, or what it's become, has done serious damage to real equality between men and women.
Amy Alkon at October 19, 2013 9:45 AM
"There's a victim culture amongst some women -- and many who identify as feminists are into it.
I'm reminded of the girl at the digital something or other conference who heard two guys telling a dirty joke behind her -- not about her, either -- and went and reported them. This came out in social media/on blogs and they were subsequently fired. "Posted by Jerry.
The firing was not because the two gentlemen told a dirty joke, or were overheard. It was because the gentlemen's employer has been told by their liability insurer that they will be dropped if too many "sexual harassment" complaints are filed on behalf of anxious young ladies.
The anxious young ladies and their counsel are quite aware of this, and so guys get fired without any chance of defending themselves or keeping their jobs. The young ladies are not "victims", they are terrorists.
curmudgeoninchief at October 19, 2013 1:24 PM
>> What kind of adult woman, who is psychologically healthy, festers for a year over an uncomfortable lunch conversation instead of speaking up at the time?
Good question. I think we all know that if a man were to behave the way that Monica Byrne is, the same people rallying to her would be questioning his ethics and maturity. The only way their reaction to Byrne makes sense is if you assume that they regard women as psychologically equivalent to children.
Let's not forget that it was Byrne who introduced the subject of sex during their discussion when she told Bora about her visit to a strip club. His response may be been inappropriate, but he did nothing to harm or coerce her. The crime that he's committed, which these people feel should cost him his entire career, is to have made her uncomfortable.
Umberto at October 19, 2013 1:37 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2013/10/17/if_theres_anyth.html#comment-3990073">comment from UmbertoThe crime that he's committed, which these people feel should cost him his entire career, is to have made her uncomfortable.
Exactly. It's disgusting that people want to bring him down for this.
And great point that SHE brought up the subject of sex.
If you are a person who does not feel comfortable engaging in certain subjects of discussion, do you bring them up?
Could this be less about anybody's discomfort than about a desire to bring somebody down who transgresses what have become ridiculous special rules for men that are supposedly about women's "equality."
Women like Kate Clancy and the Harvard-based twit -- a teacher there, I think (I forget what her Twitter bio said) -- expressing their outrage on Twitter need to take a hard look at what they're outraged about: My expectation that a woman would act like an adult in the work world and defend herself.
I told the Harvard chickie thanks for reminding me to not assume that people teaching there are particularly smart or rational. (I try not to make assumptions anyway, but it's easy to fall into the mode of assuming being vetted to work at Harvard means you have some exceptional ability in the upstairs department.)
Amy Alkon at October 19, 2013 2:03 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2013/10/17/if_theres_anyth.html#comment-3990101">comment from Amy AlkonHere's another guy who's had his career ruined, who's guilty of -- hand grips with a woman?
http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/roiphe/2013/10/colin_mcginn_sexual_harassment_case_was_the_philosophy_prof_s_story_that.single.html
Amy Alkon at October 19, 2013 2:21 PM
Amy,
It sounds more like the girl -- I won't call her a woman because she would have to stand up and show a pair -- got a boyfriend and then he couldn't handle the friendship with the professor.
Jim P. at October 19, 2013 7:53 PM
I am sad to see that you are so jaded as to have gotten used to a world like this. Mr. Zivkovic has rightly lost his job over this, as he has done something horribly wrong.
The many here who resort to personal attacks on the victim, rather than adressing the actual course of events that took place, clearly do so because they have no leg to stand on.
I hope you all strongly reconsider your positions in the future, and one day realize how offensive and hurtful they are.
Dan at October 20, 2013 3:32 AM
Dan,
I've been the victim of repeated sexual harassment. Especially because when I was very very young I was a doe-eyed baby faced waif. (Now I'm fat and have a bitch face so I dunno why it still keeps happening to me).
My last boss was a married guy who tried to have an affair with me.
When I was 19 I had a 50 year old married guy (another boss) try to have an affair with me. I had one customer tell me over the phone his fantasies regarding my voice (that I was a petite blue eyed blonde-nope nope and nope).
I asked Amy for advice and she gave me some fantastic advice on how to turn these guys down firmly but without hurting my career.
As to those comparing it to domestic violence victims. I grew up around these women and many of them will be the most aggresive, biggest cunts when the man is acting good and nice. Sorry but they turn on you in a really nasty way until the man starts acting badly again.
Ppen at October 20, 2013 6:01 AM
Amy, this appears to be a modern, generated, problem.
The median age at SRS is over 54. We have to go through the training, and hilariously, we are ALL told that our familiar terms of endearment may not be appropriate for the junior workers!
Apparently, hugging Grandma back because she's proud of her boy's new baby is a life-destroying event for our new Gen-Xer (or whatever they're called now), even though I've worked with Grandma and her husband for 20 years!
There is real evil at work, dividing Americans, and this is one of the ways it works: denying the existence of common decency. One man is a pedophile / all men are pedophiles, even fathers; one man is a harasser / all men are harassers.
One man in Iran wants to bomb a plane - all men in the USA want to bomb a plane.
If you believe any of those, you're an idiot, not a progressive, or whatever other label you pretend for yourself.
Radwaste at October 20, 2013 7:50 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2013/10/17/if_theres_anyth.html#comment-3991576">comment from DanMr. Zivkovic has rightly lost his job over this, as he has done something horribly wrong.
Which is what?
I love the people who come here and say he has done something "horribly wrong," as Dan has, but fail to mention what that is.
Amy Alkon at October 20, 2013 8:16 AM
What a load of dismissive, dishonest victim blaming bullshit.
In a professional setting you don't use your position to get your sexual jollies at someone else's expense. Period.
That doesn't mean you can't compliment someone at work, but use some common sense.
Just because this guy wasn't blatantly coming out and saying "fuck me or lose your position" doesn't mean he wasn't put those women in a position where they felt they had to put up with his unwanted sexual attention or possibly suffer some professional consequence. He's made everyone he helped or didn't help in their careers question whether they were advanced (or not) because of their skills or because of their sexual attractiveness.
That's the harm he's done, to those individuals and to the organizations he worked for.
And this isn't about women getting "special treatment" it's about everyone in a professional setting being able to do their jobs and pursue their careers on their merit of the work without being subjected to unwanted personal attention or sexual pressure. It happens to men too, but far more to women. Asking that women not be treated to such unwanted advances isn't asking for "special treatment" it's asking for fair treatment.
A Hermit at October 20, 2013 9:18 AM
This article, and many of the comments, just repeat the same tired old myths and misconceptions:
http://www.workharassment.net/index.php/myths-about-sexual-harassment.html
A Hermit at October 20, 2013 9:25 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2013/10/17/if_theres_anyth.html#comment-3991808">comment from A HermitLet's remember who brought up the topic of strip clubs -- and sex -- at lunch.
If you want to keep sex out of the equation, is that what you do?
One standard, in both stalking and harassment, is that you need to speak up when something is making you uncomfortable.
Again, if you wish to keep sex out of the equation, ladies, best not to bring it up yourself.
I love how all these people are advocating for a double standard in the name of "equality" and "fairness."
Amy Alkon at October 20, 2013 10:40 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2013/10/17/if_theres_anyth.html#comment-3991814">comment from Amy AlkonOh, and from your list:
Thanks for backing up my points. Appreciate it!
Amy Alkon at October 20, 2013 10:42 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2013/10/17/if_theres_anyth.html#comment-3991824">comment from Amy AlkonImagine how different things would have been if these women had simply done the adult thing: "communicate their feelings about the behavior so that the person or people engaging in the behavior know this is offensive or unwanted."
PS The person or people who wrote the list at the link are clueless about mating research or what actually drives this behavior. Not surprisingly. But I do love that they support my arguments so well.
Amy Alkon at October 20, 2013 10:45 AM
It's not just a matter of ambiguity. It's about the back-and-forth kidding and mock combat that is the process of seduction. The female supremacists have no sense of humor about the subject, they demand to be in absolute control every step of the way, so they insist on ruining everyone else's fun.
Their fascistic campaigns to rid workplaces, schools, and all other venues they can reach of "locker room atmospheres" are entirely part of this "party pooper" crusade. One is tempted to compare them to an ethnic group reputed to lack any sense of humor, but they are much worse.
jdgalt at October 20, 2013 11:04 AM
Another science insider here. I am an active participant in women in science type groups and often see this sort of overblown hand-wringing about the perils of being a female scientist. Any and all hardships of making a career in science (and it IS hard) are viewed through the lens of gender, and massive amounts of thoughtful deconstruction expended on analyzing and fixing the perceived gender bias. Not to be glib, but similar single-mindedness in the pursuit of their research questions would go a long way to vaporizing the perceived barriers. Tellingly, many senior/successful female scientists are wary of participating in these groups--too busy working, and quite possibly not wanting to get sucked in to the hand-wringing circle. (Of course, they are viewed as unsupportive traitors to their gender.)
I know Bora quite well, and have interacted with him over 10+ years. He is indeed a bit socially awkward and not the best at reading cues--he is the sort that stands chatting for 15 minutes as you try to move on to the next person, is over-enthusiastic in his gestures, and laughs at the wrong moments sometimes. He is also extremely smart, a great synthesizer of ideas, and one of my favorite people to talk science with. He has always been all these things. In the realm of online science journalism, he seemed to have found the perfect way to use his undoubted skills, and he did so in a way that helped other people far more than it helped him. It's only recently that he's even had a salary for his blog-related stuff, and the spin from his accusers that his massive powerfulness was sooo scary that they dare not speak up is an utter joke. The entire debacle is sickening and makes me want to write nasty things about these harridans, and certainly I will do them professional harm should their "pitches" ever cross my desk.
Like others, I am too entangled in the science world to comfortably use my own name here.
Science lady at October 20, 2013 11:37 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2013/10/17/if_theres_anyth.html#comment-3991914">comment from Science ladyScience lady, thank you so, so much for posting this here.
Amy Alkon at October 20, 2013 11:43 AM
"Myth: Any unwanted touch, sexual comments, or sexual attention is discriminatory and should immediately be considered sexual harassment."
That's not myth, that's reality. And what constitutes "sexual" or "unwanted" is entirely at the discretion of the woman, and she has the privilege of waiting until some time later to decide. Our latest thing at work is that workspaces are subject to weekly inspections to make sure we don't have anything "inappropriate". What's inappropriate? If there's anything that anyone at all doesn't like, it's inappropriate.
Cousin Dave at October 20, 2013 12:19 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2013/10/17/if_theres_anyth.html#comment-3991986">comment from Cousin Dave"Myth: Any unwanted touch, sexual comments, or sexual attention is discriminatory and should immediately be considered sexual harassment."
What if Bora didn't want to hear about the strip club? Maybe it upset him. She harassed him first.
Amy Alkon at October 20, 2013 12:35 PM
"Thanks for backing up my points. Appreciate it"
I don;t see it that way. Bora's behaviour went far beyond "simple miscommunication." If he's really so smart its hard to believe he didn't know what he was doing and what effect his constant sexualizing of what should have been professional interactions had. In at least one of the cases that have come to light he explicitly asked for sex, and the e-mails that have come to light are hardly subtle...
What really gets me though is his repeated use of the classic "my frigid wife doesn't understand me" line. As soon as you hear that you should know where the conversation is going...
A Hermit at October 20, 2013 2:41 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2013/10/17/if_theres_anyth.html#comment-3992226">comment from A HermitBora's behaviour went far beyond "simple miscommunication."
To what, complex miscommunication?
Again, solution: Say stop. If you're an adult who expects equal treatment and not special treatment.
Pulled from Nat Geo piece:
Sexual harassment in the world of special fragile science flowers is now whatever you say it is.
Again all you apologists for victim-feminism as the new equality, didn't she harass him by bringing up strip clubs?
Amy Alkon at October 20, 2013 2:57 PM
I forgot to include the postscript about my accuser. Of course, immediately after word got around the office about what she had done, all the men (and some of the women) in the division started avoiding her. A few weeks later, she filed an additional complaint: that she was being excluded from groups of people going out together for lunch. So another edict came down, and all of the men had to go to sensitivity training. After that, anytime that co-workers wanted to go have lunch together, they had to sneak out as if they were having an affair: park on opposite sides of the building, leave through different doors, pick a table in the back corner of the restaurant where they were less likely to be seen together. It was just all so incredibly childish and everyone got disgusted with it.
As to what eventually happened to this women? She married a co-worker that she had been secretly dating all along, in violation of the company's no-fraternization policy. Once they were married she got pregnant, quit work, and let/made him support her.
Cousin Dave at October 21, 2013 1:36 PM
Thank you.
Thank you for being (please allow me here to use a crappy cliched phrase, but I'm only a caveman after all, I only think in simple words and with my dick!) a REAL woman.
If only your metro-desexualised sisters would stop reproducing with the metrosexual "men" we could repopulate the Earth with smart men and women that have courage, integrity, ethics and realise they are NOT the fucking same (and thank God for that!) but we are equally morally responsible for being ethical and responsible for ourselves and our actions. Seriously, thank you.
Giuseppe at October 22, 2013 4:06 PM
"Any unwanted touch, sexual comments, or sexual attention is discriminatory..."
This may be pedantic, but HOW is this "discriminatory"? The offender could do this to every person in a company equally.
It's the wrong word. Period.
Radwaste at October 22, 2013 5:03 PM
People at work say things that offend me all the time. I never use vulgar language and I don't like it when other people do. People make comments critical of my religious beliefs or my politics. 90% of the time I just ignore the comment. I don't find it necessary to complain to the boss, file a lawsuit, or scream "I am offended by that remark!" I just ignore it and go on with the conversation. Occasionally, someone insists on going on about a topic that I don't want to discuss, so I try to change the subject. If that doesn't work, then I WALK AWAY.
Mark J at October 23, 2013 8:01 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2013/10/17/if_theres_anyth.html#comment-4003040">comment from Mark JExactly, Mark J!
Amy Alkon at October 23, 2013 10:12 PM
Thank you very much for posting this - your post helped me formulate my opinion on this "controversy", which has lead to this post:
http://nikitab.wordpress.com/2013/10/28/the-bora-controversy-and-american-values/
Nikita Bernstein at October 27, 2013 9:27 PM
"Back then, piggish men justified this on the grounds that women were too feeble, neurotic, and hysterical for the Man's World of science or math or medicine or what have you."
Well, apparently, they are.
I have a couple of cases of my own, not sexual, but demonstrating that women are at least half psychopath right at the start.
Alan at December 18, 2013 6:31 PM
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