Generation Pathetic
Therapist Brooke Donatone is seeing the helicopter-parented 20- and 30-somethings, and she's finding it common for them to be unprepared to be on their own or act as adults. An excerpt from her Slate piece:
Amy had mild depression growing up, and it worsened during freshman year of college when she moved from her parents' house to her dorm. It became increasingly difficult to balance school, socializing, laundry, and a part-time job. She finally had to dump the part-time job, was still unable to do laundry, and often stayed up until 2 a.m. trying to complete homework because she didn't know how to manage her time without her parents keeping track of her schedule.I suggested finding a job after graduation, even if it's only temporary. She cried harder at this idea. "So, becoming an adult is just really scary for you?" I asked. "Yes," she sniffled.
Amy is 30 years old.
Her case is becoming the norm for twenty- to thirtysomethings I see in my office as a psychotherapist. I've had at least 100 college and grad students like Amy crying on my couch because breaching adulthood is too overwhelming.
In 2000, psychologist Jeff Arnet coined the term "emerging adolescence" to describe extended adolescence that delays adulthood. People in their 20s no longer view themselves as adults. There are various plausible reasons for this, including longer life spans, helicopter parenting, and fewer high paying jobs that allow new college grads to be financially independent at a young age.
I also find that kids don't want to live away from home, even if they can afford to. I, on the other hand, wanted to be on my own from the time I was in my early teens, and even before.
Independence -- of thought, action -- really seems to be missing in a lot of kids.
And I'm not one of those "Kids these days...!" types. I do think there's a change and much of it has to do with how overscheduled, overly programmed and helicopter-parented kids are.
When I was 8, I used to just run down the street to the park, play in the creek and around the place, and come home at dinner time. Now, allowing your kid to do this is called "child endangerment."
The parents I know are far beyond helicopter parents. They're cult leaders, creating kids who can't even function outside the walls of their homes.
I'm haunted by the former babies I knew, who were bright, inquisitive, beautiful little people. Now they're sullen and weird, completely dependent on Mommy and Daddy.
My own parents gave me no guidance whatsoever on what to do with my life, so I blundered from job to job and finally settled on writing.
Thank God I never had kids. Observing my niece and nephews going through their high-school years was traumatic enough. Every parent I met at school functions was insane.
I spent my formative years overseas, so in a lot of ways American culture is a mystery to me. One thing I've noticed about the US is the herd mentality. Rugged individualism is actually rare.
For some reason people flock to be a part of giant societal dysfunctions. No idea why.
Thomas Wictor at December 4, 2013 11:38 PM
It's the dumbing down of America, Thomas. The government has been enabling people to not be personally responsible since the early 70s. "Politically correct" is neither political nor correct. It has effectively given the vast majority of people permission to blame others for the situation they find themselves in, without having to do anything about it. Isn't that swell?
Meanwhile, people like me, who have been trying to beat the idea of personally responsibility into my kids' heads through the seat of their pants, have been rendered "hopelessly outdated" and ineffective in teaching our children to be functioning adults. Thankfully, both of my girls got it. They are both learning how to fend for themselves while getting an education, and knowing I'll have their backs, if need be. But they know the joys of autonomy, and hopefully, will be able to pass that joy on to their kids, if they ever have any. Provided that the government doesn't interfere. Which, sadly, seems to be inevitable.
Flynne at December 5, 2013 5:03 AM
Oddly enough, the military, which is perhaps the definition of regimented, can cure that. Why? Like life, only results matter. Excuses do not.
That probably explains my immunity to the cult of Obama.
MarkD at December 5, 2013 5:18 AM
Oh, there are a number of things going on here, and I don’t know if we can attribute this youthful malaise we’re talking about to any single thing. My middle daughter, who’s almost 18, and I have discussed what’s going on in her cohort many times. While I’m sure it varies from school to school and region to region, the teens are under a lot of pressure, thinking (probably correctly) that they need to pile on the AP classes and the outside activities to gain admission to the top colleges. To do that, their lives tend to be more structured than their parents’ were, and parents’ temptations to hover over their children must be considerable.
But I wonder if that’s changing, if only a little bit. The kids have eyes – according to my daughter, her classmates are watching their older brothers and sisters moving back home after college with their expensive degrees and their fabulous jobs at Starbuck’s or Target. They’re wondering if chasing after a degree whose expense increases while its value decreases is really worth the trouble. Whether they’ve figured out what to do about it is another matter.
Old RPM Daddy (OldRPMDaddy at GMail dot com) at December 5, 2013 5:55 AM
MarkD and RPM both have good points. Related to what MarkD said, it's not just that their lives are regimented -- it's also that there is no standard for what constitutes success. The parents send little Johnny to piano lessons mainly so they can tell other parents that little Johnny is taking piano lessons. Whether little Johnny actually learns to play the piano or not is immaterial. Similarly, if little Johnny gets an F on a test, the parents' reaction is to go to the school and pitch a snit fit until the teacher agrees to change the grade.
And RPM raises the point that the young people are figuring out that the whole "go to an Ivy, get a good job" thing is a sham. I personally think it's unacceptable to have an economy where any reasonably well educated or trained young person can't find a decent job. However, for the time being we're stuck with it (and one of the reasons we're stuck with it is because those same young people voted en masse for socialism). I can see the possibility of that cohort starting to go more entrepeneurial. Which might be a good thing for them and a good lesson to learn, since they will run into the barriers that the leftists they voted for have put up, and learn from that experience.
Cousin Dave at December 5, 2013 6:49 AM
Missing from the landscape are trade schools. I grew up not far from a trade school that educated mechanics, carpenters, plumbers and the like. Want to earn a good living? Learn a trade. Trades are also generally good job security - we will always need plumbers and electricians.
The problem? That trade school I knew is long gone. Everybody thinks they need to go to college, but too many college degrees are worthless on the job market. The result are overqualified hamburger flippers and ever fewer competent people in the trades.
a_random_guy at December 5, 2013 7:25 AM
I do think this is an interesting topic of conversation. My first feelings is that there's a kind of prisoner's dilemma going on with parents.
These days, if you let your kid play by the creek until supper, mostly likely nothing will happen. But on the super tiny off chance that something does (say the kid falls, breaks a finger and you're not there), you will be a social pariah with other parents. Instead of a mindset of "Oh these things happen to kids" (which is true, kids get hurt, that's kind of what they do) you'll be viewed as horrible parent. So even if you want to let your kid be free, there's a ton of social pressure not to.
I've seen this kind of thinking with schools not allowing kids to walk to school.
I think a bigger part of this might also be the lack of community. In a world where every guy is a potential pedophile and we hear story after story of abduction, people don't trust anyone else to oversee their kids.
It's sad. As the recovered child of a pretty helicopter-y Mother (I call her my S'mother), I know how important it is to give room for real independece.
Andrew at December 5, 2013 7:34 AM
Is it any wonder that the kids of helicopter parents vote for helicopter government?
Dwatney at December 5, 2013 7:36 AM
" . . . fewer high paying jobs that allow new college grads to be financially independent . . ."
THIS! a million times this. While all the other points are good and worth a look-see. The job market and the economy are big factors in what is going on in this country; whether it be "helicoptered privileged" white kids from the suburbs or whether it is "unfathered underprivileged" black teens who go polar-bear hunting; this bad economy is seriously impacting us all.
And instead of dealing with it; we have a "president" who has his head up his ass claiming that he won and the rest of us just have to get over our racism and embrace his policies (whether they work or not) because he is just oh so smarter than the rest of us combined.
Given how bad things are and how unlikely they are to change anytime soon is it any wonder parents are trying to do everything they can for their offspring? Even if it isn't, in the long run, the right thing or the best thing, they believe that they need to do something in this fucked-up world to give their kids a leg up to get ahead. I don't really want to blame them - my generation seems to have had it easier - we only had Jimmy Carter's administration screwing us over. This generation is going to deal with Obamanation and its aftermath for the rest of their lives. They are fucked.
Charles at December 5, 2013 7:42 AM
My Son is 19. He is employed. He is waiting on higher education at this point.
Some of the many problems with his peers is that they have no useful skills or hobbies. They cannot fix anything. They cannot run a sewing machine. They do not know how to cook. Most can't mow a lawn or change the oil in their cars. Many cannot do laundry and have never done anything greater than tidy their own rooms.
They may have taken music lessons or played sports or taken AP classes and gotten great grades, but they are not particularly useful. They know video games and social media.
Another issue is $$$ gas. Really? Between the gas and the insurance, my son is working to support his vehicle with a just little jingle left over.
His job? He needed to know someone to get it.
He was not able to get other entry level jobs because there were people with degrees lined up for the jobs that did not require them.
People that invested 2+ years of time and money for a degree or certificate to get an entry level job that doesn't actually require experience or training. All to earn a couple bucks more than minimum wage.
LauraGr at December 5, 2013 7:45 AM
Cousin Dave says: I personally think it's unacceptable to have an economy where any reasonably well educated or trained young person can't find a decent job.
_______________________________
Well, two of several possible reasons for that are:
1) Parents are having too many kids, so the competition is higher and parents should consider that before having a second child, and
2) machines are replacing more and more jobs, so people may soon be hired only to maintain the machines.
Which reminds me of this well-known scene from the end of "Dinner at Eight" (between the elderly comic Marie Dressler and Jean Harlow, playing the uneducated golddigger as usual):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99oA8Oi19sg
The scene starts at 1:01. You might enjoy the prior bits as well - it's a great movie.
And here's what I said in Amy's May thread, titled "It's 'Possible' To Cook Meals For Your Children Without The Government Paying For It":
One problem, I think, is that
1) conservative parents often think that kids should take the initiative to learn EVERY boring life skill without asking for help and then they unfairly blame the kids for not knowing how to do anything, and
2) liberal parents think they shouldn't try to push ANY skill on kids that they show no interest in.
As one woman said elsewhere (not verbatim): "My parents made it a point to TEACH me things. I considered myself to be a pretty independent kid, but back then, I certainly didn't approach my mother and ask her for a lesson in laundry - she had to make me learn and then assign the chore to me."
lenona at December 5, 2013 9:22 AM
It's not just the current crop of young adults who are often unprepared for life in the outside. The parents of this cohort of kids are just-as unprepared.
There's a private road a couple streets over. The residents clubbed together and built a mailbox rack out at the county road. It was a nice-looking piece of architecture, had a shingled roof and stencilled ivy growing up the sides. Martha would have liked it.
One night, not so very long ago, it was blown up by a pipe bomb. Think Ensign Pulver. This was not a coupe of M80s, this was a serious bomb designed to do some serious damage. Debris was blown hundreds of feet in all directions.
The State Police bomb squad shows up, and with a little looking, they zero in on the mailbox location into which this piece of art was placed. And some bright spark says 'let's go up the street and pay that family a visit.' And the road-patrol trooper winks at me and says 'I already know what happened here.' And she was right.
Turns out that the home whose mailbox was vaporized includes a young lady who (as I am told) is blessed with more than her fair share of pulchritude. And she is (as I am told) much admired. This had caused some problems already, with late-night tire squealing and at least one 'lawn job'.
Now comes the State Police, knocking on the door and saying 'someone blew up your mailbox last night. A lot. We know there's been - issues - with boys of late. Is it possible that some admirer of your daughter may possibly have thought he had cause to do something like this?'
And the father and mother just went ballistic. How Dare You! How Dare You even Suggest that our Innocent Flower could be involved in anything like this! What are You Suggesting? Get thee Gone This Instant! You'll Be Hearing From Our Lawyers! And they threw the State Police investigators out of the house.
As the road patrol trooper said to me later, if both the parents and the girl are so unaware of what's happening around them, you have to ask yourself, just what would have to happen for them to figure out that there's a problem? Maybe a Molotov cocktail in the trash can, or a 30.06 slug zipping through the sun lounge?
So it's not just the kids who are unprepared for the real world. Many of their parents are just-as unprepared.
llater,
llamas
llamas at December 5, 2013 9:48 AM
If I had kids I would want to look at the test. Because there are any number of teachers and textbooks now that are being creative with history. They'll say that Constitution is not really the founding document. The Bill of Rights can be superseded. So I would be teaching my kid real history and tell them to ignore the teacher.
Jim P. at December 5, 2013 10:51 AM
What could possibly be terrifying about adulthood?
Medical care is going down the crapper, the job market is bleak, their parents' retirement funds have been pillaged, their parents are breaking their necks to care for their grandparents, their college degrees seem worthless, we've been embroiled in overseas wars for more than a decade, the government is stripping away our liberties, and that's just off the top of my head.
Fuck, I'm terrified of adulthood and I'm in my *mid* thirties.
Elle at December 5, 2013 11:17 AM
To Elle:
And on top of all that, there is no shortage of busybody relatives and "friends" who would be openly appalled if, on the one hand, you weren't in danger of becoming homeless, but you still felt the need to forfeit parenthood for primarily financial reasons. (Luckily, that's not the case with me - the people I know respect others' privacy.) Of course, one can just keep quiet on the subject of parenthood and say "don't get personal" to anyone who dares to ask - but that doesn't always work very well.
To put it another way, many young people are taught, if not in so many words, that marriage and parenthood aren't things you choose - that they "just happen" and that you're a freak if you actually take control of your life by thinking, planning ahead, and weighing your options. (I'm guessing it isn't just conservatives who feel that way.)
lenona at December 5, 2013 11:31 AM
As a kid, between Catholic school, Boy Scouts and my parents, I learned a few skills. I was taught, not always willingly, to install a dishwasher, fix plumbing leaks, balance a checkbook, change faucets, cook meals (on a stove or on a fire), do laundry, do minor sewing repairs, change oil, change a tire, lube a car, do points and plugs, operate power tools safely, handle firearms and knives safely, solder, thread a pipe, build a fire, do a budget and stick to it, perform basic first aid, and more.
My sister was taught many of those same skills - especially the car ones as my father insisted that girls should know that a car needs more than gas as well as know how to change a flat and what is needed to keep a car running.
As I got older, I realized that it takes effort on the part of parents and adults to teach children these skills - especially today when we don't change our own oil anymore or do most of our own auto or home maintenance work.
It's no longer a simple case of "I'm going to change the oil, so Jr. might was well do it with me and learn something." Nowadays, we drop the car off and someone else changes the oil. We call a plumber. We drop by a fast-food joint or microwave a Hot Pocket for lunch. Supper is too often a packaged home-meal-replacement. It's easier to just do a larger load of laundry than to cajole and badger Jr. into doing his own.
These days, colleges want to see lots of extracurricular activities on an application. So, parents keep their kids busy with application-enhancing activities rather than household chores. Doing laundry, working an entry-level job, or being able to change a flat in the rain doesn't get you into Harvard.
We've told our children by our own actions that those skills aren't as important as being on the soccer team.
Conan the Grammarian at December 5, 2013 12:10 PM
I took my daughter to the school playground after preschool the other day. While I sat talking with a couple other moms I missed something in the conversation and started to apologize for being distracted (I was worried about some lab results for my cat) when one of the moms cut me off to say that of course I was distracted as I was watching my kid.
I was surprised. I wasn't even facing my daughter's direction. I said, "no, I'm worried about my sick cat," and everyone freaked out.
This is a playground. With 2 feet of mulch under it, safety railings, and plastic everything. The worst a kid could do is a broken arm (and that would take concerted effort). So long as she's not leaving the playground, she's okay.
Apparently, I was "supposed" to be watching for the first sign of... something. I told them that if I look, I'll want to help, and that isn't actually helpful in the long run. I added that if my daughter wants help she is more than willing to shout to get my attention.
Based on the reaction (from some) you'd think I just told them that I was going to drop her off at the mall with hundred dollar bills taped to her.
Of course, people also freak out that I... give them chores! I think I'm going easy on them. They have to put their clothes in the hamper and clear their dishes (to varying degrees based on height and unbreakability). The older one has to pack his backpack and make his bed. They also have to help when requested with cleaning up, setting the table, and feeding the dog.
My conclusion is it's going to be worse in 15 years. (mind, I'm a young 30-something, so I'm actually in the age group mentioned in the article).
Shannon M. Howell at December 5, 2013 12:18 PM
It's the dumbing down of America, Thomas. The government has been enabling people to not be personally responsible since the early 70s. "Politically correct" is neither political nor correct. It has effectively given the vast majority of people permission to blame others for the situation they find themselves in, without having to do anything about it.
That's interesting, because it sounds like you're doing a pretty good job of blaming the government for this phenomenon.
I'd draw a straighter line -- if these children are unprepared for adulthood, it's because their parents never prepared them.
(If you want to talk real political incorrectness, try suggesting that parents today are not all "doing the best they can," set upon by forces from all sides -- but rather that there's a lot of shitty parents in America today.)
Kevin at December 5, 2013 12:35 PM
These days, colleges want to see lots of extracurricular activities on an application. So, parents keep their kids busy with application-enhancing activities rather than household chores. Doing laundry, working an entry-level job, or being able to change a flat in the rain doesn't get you into Harvard.
Posted by: Conan the Grammarian at December 5, 2013 12:10 PM
____________________________
Speaking of which: Someone told me there was an op-ed in the New York Times some time ago by a high-school student(?) who complained that she'd been working very hard for years - but not in the way that looks well on a college application, so she wasn't likely to get into any college she might really want.
She was working at what, you ask?
She was caring for two invalid parents - chores, shopping, etc.
So, of course, many people would say "well, you're SUPPOSED to do that when your parents are sick - why SHOULD you get extra credit for it?"
I would probably suggest to teens in that situation that they focus on what they managed to do with what little spare time they had (while making it clear WHY they had so little time, of course). However, this might mean having to make straight As before anyone cares.
If anyone knows who wrote the op-ed, please post the link!
lenona at December 5, 2013 2:52 PM
To Conan:
And, I would add, all those skills you learned no doubt saved you money to spend on the things you cared about most. At the least, kids should learn to take pride in doing their own unpaid chores instead of paying others to do them - after all, even rich people have unpaid work to do, even if it's just talking with their investment counselors, so everyone might as well get used to unpaid work. Besides, paying others to do chores is a short-term luxury that's soon forgotten, like turning up the heat instead of wearing a sweater, and long-term luxuries will make you happier in the long run - or, gasp, even spending money only on necessities might make you happiest. After all, even a swimming pool can get boring after a month or so! Having peace of mind knowing that there's always enough money in the bank for emergencies is wonderful.
lenona at December 5, 2013 2:59 PM
Cousin Dave says: I personally think it's unacceptable to have an economy where any reasonably well educated or trained young person can't find a decent job.
_______________________________
Well, two of several possible reasons for that are:
1) Parents are having too many kids, so the competition is higher and parents should consider that before having a second child, and
2) machines are replacing more and more jobs, so people may soon be hired only to maintain the machines.
Oh, THIS. I see thousands of 20-somethings competing fiercely for like ten crappy part-time jobs. Most of these kids shouldn't exist! Their parents shouldn't have had them in the first place, which is not the kids' fault. But society just doesn't need that many people anymore, and frankly neither does the environment.
I echo the sentiments of others here who have said, "Thank goodness I didn't have kids."
Pirate Jo at December 5, 2013 3:35 PM
Not a helicopter parent. However recently we noted a disturbing trend where my daughter swore she was turning in her homework for one class in particular but it wasn't showing up on the school's grade cyber-stalking website. All of her other classes were beautiful. Sent the teacher an email, bird-dogged the situation, only to find out that the teacher was accumulating a huge pile of assignments and not grading them nor registering the grades on the website. Brought it to the principal's attention, since we were supposed to be "checking in" every freaking night and disciplining our kids accordingly for their grades. Can't have correction without the feedback. What did the teacher do? She gave all the kids partial credit for all the assignments she had been hanging on to.
Vindictive cow.
Juliana at December 5, 2013 5:23 PM
I advocate repealing all minimum wage laws and laws that restrict teenagers' freedom to work, shortening the school day to 3 hours, and teaching and encouraging kids to go out and make some money.
(Actually I advocate the abolition of the entire government run educational gulag system, but such an idea is too radical for this era)
Kevin: "I'd draw a straighter line -- if these children are unprepared for adulthood, it's because their parents never prepared them."
I have to agree with that. Just because someone else is willing to step in and take over the education, socialization and training of your kids doesn't mean you should let them; and you don't have to let them, at least not so far. If you want something done right do it yourself. I don't care what the official, professional, expert educators say, they do not love your kid.
lenona: "My parents made it a point to TEACH me things... but back then, I certainly didn't approach my mother and ask her for a lesson in laundry - she had to make me learn and then assign the chore to me."
Yes, that's a parent who takes responsibility for her kids.
Ken R at December 6, 2013 1:17 AM
I'd draw a straighter line -- if these children are unprepared for adulthood, it's because their parents never prepared them.
We're now into our 6th generation of welfare, wherein those parents never prepared their children, who didn't prepare their children because they weren't prepared to prepare their children.
(If you want to talk real political incorrectness, try suggesting that parents today are not all "doing the best they can," set upon by forces from all sides -- but rather that there's a lot of shitty parents in America today.)
I'm certain there are a great number of capable parents out there, who get ham-stringed by certain government forces and policies - "zero tolerance" for instance. How many incidences have you read of where a parent gives their child an aspirin or other medication that would not have raised an eyebrow when we were in school, only to have that child arrested and vilified by the ridiculous "zero tolerance" policies of whichever school? How about the kid who got suspended for shaping a pop tart into a gun, ferpetesakes? Yes, I do blame the government for a lot of the assholery and dumbfuckery being imposed on the various states' school systems. And I also blame the government for hamstringing and undermining the parents' capabilities and willingness to take care of parent their children. Ever had DCF called on you because you trusted your 8-year old kid enough to go to the park 2 blocks away from your house by herself? I have. How are kids supposed to learn to be independent and learn to do things for themselves, if so many other people are trying to prevent you from doing any actual parenting? When I was a kid, I went to the beach on my bike, 3 blocks away from my house, mind you, to meet OTHER kids who also went to the beach just to hang. Our ages were anywhere from 7 to 11 or 12, and NO ONE bothered us or our parents. Nowadays, if you let your kid take his/her bike to the beach by themselves, you'd be arrested for neglect. And fined if they weren't wearing a freakin' helmet.
Flynne at December 6, 2013 4:56 AM
Well, my parents didn't teach me much beyond how to read, but we had libraries, with books in them, so I figured out how to do everything I ever needed to do, including changing water pumps and brakes, home repairs, electrical wiring for a swimming pool pump and timer (yes, inspected and passed)... These days, kids have computers and phones and access to you tube videos that SHOW them how to do nearly everything.
So, I'm calling that excuse what it is.
MarkD at December 6, 2013 5:41 AM
It's not an excuse, MarkD. I've been teaching my kids how to do stuff, just as my parents taught me. Conversely, my kids show this old techno-tard how to do stuff on the computer or on my smart phone. Some stuff I can figure out without them, some not so much. I taught them both enough about laundry, cleaning, cooking, sewing, balancing a checkbook, etc. that I know they can take care of themselves. HOWEVER, there are some parents out there who can't do those things for themselves, never mind teaching their kids how to. Keep in mind, too, that not EVERY kid has a computer or phone or access to you tube videos. In fact, in this area, there are a lot of kids who don't. Not by choice but by circumstance.
Flynne at December 6, 2013 6:08 AM
"Oh, THIS. I see thousands of 20-somethings competing fiercely for like ten crappy part-time jobs. Most of these kids shouldn't exist!"
I don't buy it... the birth rate in America is barely at replacement level. All of our population growth comes from immigration, and this has been true for a couple of generations now. What's different now is that we have a ruling class that sees the private sector as inherently an evil thing. If it can't be eliminated outright (and they are not giving up on that), then it needs to be limited, constrained, fenced in, shrunk. And yes, some of that is the result of policies that these now-jobless Millennials voted for, but that's water under the bridge now. America will not experience any more economic growth until there is a fundemental changes in the public's attitude towards private enterprise.
Cousin Dave at December 6, 2013 6:48 AM
Cousin Dave,
You can no longer just look at the population of the United States. The job market is a global competition now, and it's hard to pay a good wage to an entitled American worker when there are five hungry Bangladeshis who will do the same work for five dollars a day.
The labor participation rate among working-age adults in the United States is at a 35-year low. There are many factors at play here, and key among them is:
Automation! This is huge. You'd think the USA didn't manufacture anything anymore, because all you hear about are the jobs that have been shipped overseas. But we manufacture more than we ever have - we just have machines doing most of the work now. That is never going to change.
Perhaps you have heard about the fast-food workers protesting for higher wages. Meanwhile, Applebees is eliminating the need for those servers as it is developing an iPad sort of device that you can use to order food from your table without the need for someone to take your order. McDonald's is testing similar drive-thru ordering devices.
All this points to the need for fewer people, all over the world. And that's not a bad thing! Maybe we can stop filling the oceans with continent-sized pools of plastic, stop polluting our water - stop turning our home into a gigantic sewer.
Otherwise, even ignoring the environmental implications, what do we have? Ten billion people clogging the planet, with half of them standing around doing nothing because there isn't any work for them to do? How do you go about feeding them, if there isn't any labor they can perform to feed themselves? How is precisely that same situation working in the United States right now, with us on our sixth generation of welfare recipients and a giant crop of old people who will become increasingly enfeebled over the next two decades and who have saved almost nothing?
It's good news that the birth rate in America is barely at replacement level, but better news would be for the population to shrink to a level that can be self-sustaining.
Pirate Jo at December 6, 2013 8:49 AM
I don't buy it... the birth rate in America is barely at replacement level. All of our population growth comes from immigration, and this has been true for a couple of generations now.
_____________________________
If you're talking about an economy and/or tax system that's struggling to adjust to a surplus of old people and a shortage of young people, that's a different problem. It doesn't change the fact that machines often replace jobs - for good - and that we can't all be jacks-of-all-trades. Increasing the number of babies will NOT increase the number of jobs waiting for them 20 years from now - it could easily make the competition even worse than now.
But, regarding the tax problem, I, for one, would suggest bringing back Victorian-style thrift as a lifestyle. As historian David Tucker pointed out, thrift was the basis of economies around the world for thousands of years (until WWI or so), so we should be able to make it work again. After all, childfree couples, despite their being heavily taxed, already have to save money for their own nursing homes, and parents can teach their children to work for their own money from an early age - by doing extra chores, for example. Besides, we have to remember that having children does not mean they will necessarily become taxpayers - or survive long enough to care for their parents in their old age.
lenona at December 6, 2013 9:09 AM
MarkD says: Oddly enough, the military, which is perhaps the definition of regimented, can cure that.
Yes, and then you've ceased to become an emotional ward of the state, and become a physical one. And you get the exhilarating illusion of being master of your own destiny and the Biggest Badass on the Block™ while being ordered all over the globe to enforce at gunpoint the poorly-conceived and violently-executed policies of the politicians you despise. This doesn't make you independent. In a volunteer army, it makes you a tool.
The state needs you, to be able to kill 100 times as many innocent Iraqi and Afghan civilians as we lost Americans on 9/11 in the name of stopping terrorism. It needs you to have a hope of "saving Afghani women" or "ending Iran's nuclear program" or "toppling Libyan/Egyptian/Syrian tyranny."
Don't buy it.
Grey Ghost at December 6, 2013 11:06 AM
I don't know about the 19th-century nostalgia, guys... not my style, and by today's standards an awful lot of the 19th century sucked. And I have problem with going up to people and telling them "You shouldn't exist". And more to the point, even if the Western world agrees to sharply curtail its birth rate, the Third World isn't going to go along with that. Even if the West disappears entirely, the human population is going to continue to grow.
OK, so machines are doing a lot of the manufacturing now. Who's buidling the machines? I can guarantee you it isn't Americans; the bulk of CNC machines are imported. Why is that? Is it because of government interference? Or is it maybe because we're training way to many people how to find subtle signs of racism in Walt Whitman, and not enough to build machines? The point is, for every job that technology eliminates, it creates new jobs. Our entire industrial society is the result of new jobs that appeared in the wake of the advent of farm machinery. It transformed the West. By 1900 a huge number of people worked at jobs that didn't exist in 1850. People will figure out new ways to make money -- if the government and the culture don't stand in the way.
Unfortunately, nowdays they do stand in the way. All of America today is comparable to the gentrified Northeast in 1940: dandified and with no tolerance for people who didn't want to live the way the cognizenti thinks they ought to. Those people went out West and made a new world for themselves. Today we don't have a frontier on Earth. We have one up above -- but nothing is being done to open it up. If that problem can be solved, there is the answer: the adventurers will go off and building new communities off Earth, and in the long run we will all benefit. That "opening it up" thing is the big problem.
Cousin Dave at December 6, 2013 12:40 PM
I can tell you aren't a vet. And only have a loose grasp of how it works.
Outside of basic training you are not watched all the time. Once you get to your duty base you are expected to keep your own uniforms (and other clothes) washed, make it to your duty station from 8-5, make it to the chow hall on time and in general be responsible for your own conduct.
Yes, when in a combat zone you are expected to kill people and break things. And that is a wholly separate question of the political idiots from learning how to be a responsible adult person. Then there are the guys like Marcus Luttrell that isn't a brain dead automaton as you seem to think.
Jim P. at December 6, 2013 8:13 PM
There does seem to be too many people for too few jobs. In my department, the director just announced a plan that will automate a lot of work and so only 1 person will be needed to do what now takes 10 or so. The what do those other 9 do? We hope to grab market share so we will need 10x the product...but then what does our competitor's employees do?
The college's demanding so much also is a problem. It was just starting when I went. To be considered in the first round you had to have some sort of service or volunteer work and some other activity (Tennis, yearbook, etc). Listening to my SIL talk about what was asked for when her niece started sounding ridicules. Yeah, kids are just so busy doing stuff to get into college.
If you look there are plenty of trade schools (at least where I am)...they just go by different names like technology college. How many of those do we really need? Per my buddy the electrician - once the house boom ended we only had worked for 1/4 of them...similar for plumbers.
The Former Banker at December 6, 2013 11:08 PM
I don't know about the 19th-century nostalgia, guys... not my style, and by today's standards an awful lot of the 19th century sucked.
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I very much doubt that even the famous artist Tasha Tudor, despite her stated wish to go back to the 1830s after she died, really wanted to live without modern plumbing, medicine, etc. I can think of plenty of other things from that century I'd never want to live with. That hardly means they had no good ideas at all.
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And I have problem with going up to people and telling them "You shouldn't exist".
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That would clearly be very rude, and I've never even heard of someone from the Zero Population Growth movement talking like that in face-to-face, casual conversation. That's hardly the same thing as politely encouraging (indirectly, via books and other media) would-be parents to have one child only. Obviously, people who don't want any children don't need to be addressed - but they DO need to have good contraception made easily available. (And free condoms, I'm guessing, aren't the preferred choice of married couples, for one.)
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And more to the point, even if the Western world agrees to sharply curtail its birth rate, the Third World isn't going to go along with that. Even if the West disappears entirely, the human population is going to continue to grow.
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Have you never heard that what drives the birth rate in Third World countries is, very often, hunger and the infant mortality rate? I.e., "when parents know their children will NOT die, they have fewer children." (From The Hunger Project.)
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The point is, for every job that technology eliminates, it creates new jobs. Our entire industrial society is the result of new jobs that appeared in the wake of the advent of farm machinery. It transformed the West. By 1900 a huge number of people worked at jobs that didn't exist in 1850.
Posted by: Cousin Dave at December 6, 2013 12:40 PM
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Are you suggesting that more and more automating is never going to hurt the number of jobs available? Cite, please. Obviously, the auto industry created a lot of jobs even as it destroyed thousands of small businesses, directly or indirectly, but from what I hear, we're going to run out of oil eventually.
lenona at December 7, 2013 1:32 PM
"Are you suggesting that more and more automating is never going to hurt the number of jobs available? "
Well, it hasn't yet. As I pointed out, the Industrial Revolution began with farm mechanization. It freed up people to work at things that hadn't been thought of previously.
Cousin Dave at December 9, 2013 7:17 AM
And yet, we seem to have a long wave of high unemployment practically every decade.
I will admit, however, that as Amy Dacyczyn (Tightwad Gazette creator) pointed out, it makes no sense for ANYONE to have only one set of marketable skills, since one never knows what will happen to one's job. This means forfeiting useless screen time (and other useless hobbies) for useful hobbies, such as carpentry or gourmet cooking. If one's brain desperately needs rest, one can take a nap instead of watching TV. This is something that needs to learned from an early age onward.
lenona at December 9, 2013 10:14 AM
Much of that work was low-skill to unskilled.
Going forward, working on things that haven't been thought of previously is going to require a higher skill set than the majority of the current generation is able or willing to acquire.
We have to stop coddling our precious snowflakes start teaching them advanced math and language skills, logic, and even manual skills.
Even traditional non-college jobs require a knowledge base and skill set obtained by college-like training. Technicians today use tools inconceivable to technicians of only a few decades earlier.
Electronic fuel injection, computer diagnostics, and tighter fit tolerances have rendered the shade tree mechanic an anachronism. A gap gauge and a screwdriver are no longer sufficient tools with which to set the timing of a modern ignition.
Conan the Grammarian at December 9, 2013 1:45 PM
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