Case workers are some of the biggest pieces of shit. My friend went to a retired case worker turned therapist to address her rape.

The therapist never brought it up in any of their sessions. Not once. Instead she asked my friend if she was a lesbian who had not come to terms with it and to seriously think about it since she was 'not dating any guys".

My first therapist worked mostly for the state used to degrade me for being skinny than be concerned about the fact I was refusing to eat for days because I was bi polar.

But I'm so grateful I had money to afford private care and lived in a big house where my parents were always gone otherwise I would have ended up like those girls.

I know too little of the system to understand how things like this can happen. However, a couple of observations:

- Some case workers often seem to be on power trips. They have the power to take away people's kids, and some of them enjoy this power more than they enjoy doing what's best for children.

- Some foster parents are real gems. I woman friend of mine was taken from her parents, because her step-dad liked sex with little girls. She was placed with a foster family that had taken in many girls over the years, always a couple of years apart. Sure enough, the foster father liked sex with little girls.

Where are the controls, both on the case workers and on the foster families?

Seems to me that - just like with police or other officials with power - there needs to be regular reviews by a citizens' board with the authority to discipline both organizations and individuals. No one who has ever worked in or with the system - complete independence - and serious authority, including the ability to permanently prohibit someone from working in the field.

The review board, a_random_guy, is an excellent idea.

There are no good solutions to this, policy or otherwise.

Not enough ordinary normal families are going to take in children, who have learned, at the first indication of rules that they don't like, to scream sexual assault, and ask to be moved to another family.

It simply isn't worth the risk for what ever sum Foster care pays.

A certain number of parents are in it for the money, because they have no other skills.
There are some saints out there, but too few of them to provide enough good homes for kids.

The McMartin pre school convictions pretty much blew the lid off of any caretaker being given the benefit of the doubt, and who wants to spend their life being drug through the justice system.?

What "McMartin pre-school convictions"? After an interminable preliminary hearing, charges were dismissed against five of the seven defendants. The 6th defendant was acquitted on 12 of 13 counts and the jury deadlocked on the last (which the judge vacated). The last defendant was acquitted on 52 of 65 counts and the jury deadlocked on the remainder. Re-tried on eight counts, the jury was deadlocked. The process was the punishment. Raymond Buckey spent about five years in jail and this formerly wealthy family lost their business and were cleaned out financially.

Not enough ordinary normal families are going to take in children, who have learned, at the first indication of rules that they don't like, to scream sexual assault, and ask to be moved to another family.
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Speaking in general, we need to learn, once and for all, that the old saying "kids seldom lie about molestation" made far more sense in the days before, say, 1980. That is, if even teens seldom lied about molestation back then, it's likely because they were not taught about it and/or feared that only strangers could be arrested for it. But...make a 3-year-old - or any older kid - FAMILIAR with a certain subject, and chances are he'll lie about it when it suits him.

Of course, preschoolers can't grasp how serious, legally speaking, such an accusation is, so chances are the only thing for adults to do is keep telling them the story of "The Boy Who Cried Wolf." Later on, however, it behooves adults to punish kids harshly for making malicious lies of any kind, if only to give them a taste of what their would-be victims might have suffered.

Why do they lie? Because they're smart enough to know how, even at three. Especially when driven by the wonderful, noble human motives of greed, anger, or fear of punishment for something if they don't lie. All they need on top of that is a subject FAMILIAR enough so they know HOW to lie about it.

Case in point: I saw a boy that age deliberately spill his bag of chips on the ground, right in front of his mother. When she refused to give him more chips, he tried to blame the spill on a non-existent breeze. Clearly, he wasn't exactly a genius, since he knew she saw what he did. Doesn't that pretty much prove that you don't have to be an unusually smart 3-year-old to lie?

More on parents who insist that "three-year-olds don't lie":

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=861&dat=20030329&id=OhhZAAAAIBAJ&sjid=fUYNAAAAIBAJ&pg=6962,7514617

Following on to what lenona said: Lying is actually a milestone in cognitive development: as you can read here. It indicates that a child has realized that his/her thinking/mind/awareness is separate and different from everyone else's (which is ultimately a good thing, as I'm sure those of you who are happily childfree who have spoken with people who just don't understand why everyone doesn't want Babies! Now! can attest). And it typically happens sometimes between the ages of 2 and 4, meaning that the majority of developmentally normal 3-year-olds can, in fact, lie.

Very informative, thank you.

Quote:

"When your young child tells a lie, remind yourself that this is not a crisis of morality. It doesn't help to get outraged. Telling a lie is your child's way of getting what he wants, which is normal and healthy. It also doesn't help to investigate his story like a detective. This makes the child feel that he can't be trusted, or that he is devious. Even when a child is 4 to 5 years or older, and understands what truth is, you still may or may not get the truth if you ask for it directly. If you do get 'the truth,' however, it was because you made him tell. After he admits he licked the chocolate off your cake, what have you gained? You did not encourage him to take responsibility for his own behavior. In fact, pressuring your child can cause him to tell less than the truth the next time."

However, the author chickened out when it came to certain parental strategies for dealing with kids' lies.

I would suggest: Never give a kid a CHANCE to lie if it can be at all avoided. Instead of asking "did you break the lamp" (especially when there's little or no chance that any other person or pet did it) simply punish the child first and talk later, assuming said kid already has a less-than-honest or decent reputation. If it turns out the adult was mistaken and the kid WAS innocent, well, that's the kid's fault for misbehaving and/or telling lies in the past. Just don't overdo it - and don't feel or look guilty when punishing. Talk and understanding are fine, but not at the wrong times.

Oh, and here's a great counterpart to Aesop's well-known fable, from 1872:

A raven built his nest on an island, and when his young were hatched he began carrying them from the island to the mainland. He took the first one up in his claws and flew with him across the sea.

When he reached the middle of the ocean he grew tired, and his wings beat more slowly.

"Now I am strong and he is weak, and I am carrying him across the sea," he thought, "but when he grows great and powerful and I am old and weak, will he remember my toil and carry me from one place to another?" So the old raven asked the young one: "When I am weak and you are strong, will you carry me? Tell me the truth!"

The young raven was afraid that his father might drop him into the ocean, and he said: "I will!"

But the old raven did not believe his son, and he opened his claws and let him fall. He dropped like a lump and drowned in the sea. The old raven flew back to his island.

Then he took his second son in his claws and flew with him across the sea. Again he grew tired and again he asked his son whether he would carry him from place to place, when he was old. The young raven, afraid of being dropped into the ocean, said: "I will!"

The father did not believe his son either, and he let him fall into the sea.

When the old raven flew back to his nest there remained only one young raven. He took his last son and flew with him across the sea. When he came to the middle of the ocean and grew tired he asked: "Will you feed me and carry me from place to place in my old age?"

"No, I will not," the young raven replied.

"Why not?" asked the father.

"When you are old and I am grown I shall have my own nest and my own young to feed and carry."

"He speaks the truth," thought the old raven. "I shall exert myself and carry him across the sea."

And the old raven did not drop the young one, but beat his wings with his last remaining strength in order to carry him to the mainland so that he could build his nest and raise his young.

"Fables and Fairy Tales" by Leo Tolstoy, translated by Ann Dunnigan, 1962.

"What "McMartin pre-school convictions"? After an interminable preliminary hearing"

Excuse me, I misspoke. The Amiraults.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Amirault

However, the child abuse cases brought to trial with no evidence by overzealous prosecutors were legion in the 90's.

Those that think Foster children, are all sweet little angels who would never lie or manipulate, haven't worked with teenagers.

In many cases they get the Foster parents they deserve. Those with nothing to lose by doing it.

I personally think we should return to orphanages. Foster care is a mess, and no amount of oversight is going to solve the endemic problems.

I'm a charge nurse on the adolescent unit at a psychiatric hospital. Some of the kids I see, usually after they've tried to kill themselves, make me want to go out and murder someone. A lot of people think the kids attempt suicide because they're selfish or spoiled and want attention. Maybe so for a few, but most of them did it because they don't want to live anymore.

This video portrays a scenario that's way too common...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOeQUwdAjE0&feature=youtu.be

...but it doesn't even come close to the nightmares that many of the sad kids I work with have lived through.

Yeah, they have attitudes alright. They're snotty. They're vulgar. They lie. They steal. They trust no one, and no one can't trust them. Same as I'd be if life had dealt me the shit hand they got.

It's funny how they act all calloused and hard assed, and then at night when they go to sleep they cuddle up with stuffed animals, like the children they are.

Isab: "I personally think we should return to orphanages."

I think there are a lot of similarities between what used to be called an orphanage and what we now call Long Term Treatment, Residential Treatment, a Childrens Home, and a Group Home. A lot of kids with nowhere to go are kept in juvenile detention centers.

Later on, however, it behooves adults to punish kids harshly for making malicious lies of any kind, if only to give them a taste of what their would-be victims might have suffered.

Ha ha ha.. these days, we don't even make adults live with the consequences of their decisions or lies, let alone teach responsibility and consequences to kids. Heck, a huge chunk of political thought (left-wing/"progressive") is essentially centered around making sure nobody has to actually suffer any consequences.

"A lot of people think the kids attempt suicide because they're selfish or spoiled and want attention. Maybe so for a few, but most of them did it because they don't want to live anymore. "

I think a lot of the 'suicide for attention' is based on, the idea that those who attempt it for attention are the ones who survive to be asked about it.

"However, the child abuse cases brought to trial with no evidence by overzealous prosecutors were legion in the 90's."

Let's not overlook the fact that the McMartin case was brought by our former Attorney General, Janet Reno, who was just as big a piece of shit as the current one.

"Some case workers often seem to be on power trips."

This. Having had some experience with this recently from the extended family, case workers have ways of sitting on things that they don't want to do, even when you have a court order. They know darn well that an injunction is just a piece of paper, and that ultimately, the system looks out for itself. Nobody with authority is going to come down to their office and actually make them do their job.

Ken R has a great point in that most of the kids who act that way do so because they were parented very badly (or not at all). But Isab also has a great point in that the situation is what is is, and you can't take the risk of letting such a kid into your home.

We have a small community- and government-supported children's home, in my small town. It is by all accounts a great place for children with no other option. It can house a couple dozen children. There are age-separated standalone "homes" (which keeps older kids mostly separate from more-impressionable younger kids). There are two sibling homes (to keep siblings together). All on one piece of property, with central oversight. My best friend worked there for a while, and our Girl Scout troop still supports them.

My point being, it is a small home in a small community. People know each other, or know people that know each other. And *that*, I think more than anything else, is what makes it a good solution. It is what Ken R. described, and what Isab suggested as a solution, and it can work, if it's done well.

Ken R., "I think there are a lot of similarities between what used to be called an orphanage and what we now call Long Term Treatment, Residential Treatment, a Childrens Home, and a Group Home."

In my view, even a large orphanage, with rules, and a schedule, regular meals and a set bedtime, is better than a dysfunctional Foster home, or in many cases a dysfunctional single parent or two parent home.

My son's girlfriend was raised in a situation that was little better than Foster care, and in many ways worse than an orphanage.

There are generally two types of people that emerge from a dysfunctional childhood.

Those who use it as an excuse for their dysfunctional adulthood, and those who use it as a horrible warning to escape the mistakes and lifestyle of their parents.

There are also plenty of people who come from nice well adjusted middle class homes, that end up on skid row or with serious mental health issues.

Crazy and self destructive alchoholic parents tend to have offspring that exhibit those characteristics more frequently than
the general population.

The myth that all these problems will just disappear if we give everyone a rosy childhood is the worst kind of unhelpful big government fantasy.