Abstinence (Of A Sexual Kind) Works Best On Deserted Islands

Works best toward what end? The current dispensation in relations between men and women has the following features:

1. Mass slaughter, as in a seven digit quantum of abortions in the United States and more abroad.

2. Mass fatherlessness, as contemporary mores tend to make the world safer for the worst sort of men and the 2d worst sort of women.

3. Mass bastardy (which assists in generating mass fatherlessness). We've reached a point where a majority of 1st born children are born out of wedlock and the modal household form is a mother, children, and a succession of men of varying degrees of durability.

4. Domestic disturbances generally from divorce, &c.

5. Fertility implosion. The West and the industrial Orient are studded with countries in a state of incipient demographic death spiral due to persistent below-replacement total fertility. This does not have much precedent. The demographic implosions of the 14th century in Europe and of the 400 year period running from 250 ad to 650 ad may have had multiple causes but had a large vector of plague driving them.

--

Morton Kondracke met his wife in 1966 while covering a political protest for the Chicago Sun-Times, which ended with her arrest. He bailed her out of jail and took her to dinner on a pretext of interviewing her. Her retort to him when he dropped her off at her apartment was 'free speech, not free love'. He persuaded her to marry him the following year.

Different time. Better time. Better people.

Abstinence (Of A Sexual Kind) Works Best On Deserted Islands
Works best toward what end?

Huh?

What, exactly are you trying to say with all that?

What I'm saying is that the notion of advising people to abstain from sex as any sort of practical way to stop unwanted pregnancy is just ridiculous vis a vis actual human behavior.

Have not a clue as to how what you are saying above relates.

5. Fertility implosion

Sucks at the time, but is better long term for humanity

He's saying it was a better time since people back in the day supposedly didnt fuck outside the restrictions of Judeo-Christian morality. Then he goes off how all that modern day sex that everyone is having is causing a population decline in thr "good" countries because bastard fatherless fetuses are getting aborted.

Then he talks about some guy who bailed this chick out just to take her to dinner and dude got a major boner but girl was like "Constitutional Rights! No pussy 4 u" Denying the man pussy made them get married.

"1. Mass slaughter, as in a seven digit quantum of abortions in the United States and more abroad."

Thank god for small favors.

Sucks at the time, but is better long term for humanity

No it is not. All of us come into this world in a dependent position and most of us leave in the same circumstances. You do not want younger cohorts smaller than older cohorts. That process incorporates feedback loops.

Have not a clue as to how what you are saying above relates.

Sex, relations between men and women generally, and domestic life are interlocking parts.

"younger cohorts smaller than older cohorts"

1. robots
2. Legal immigrants

Both can change my diapers. Our way of living is become obsolete anyways due technology.

Then he talks about some guy who bailed this chick out just to take her to dinner and dude got a major boner but girl was like "Constitutional Rights! No pussy 4 u" Denying the man pussy made them get married.

Ppen, where did you learn to speak and translate fluent Kook-anese? Is there a Pimsleur course I can take? What's even more impressive is that this person speaks a rare, difficult-to-understand dialect of Kook-anese, and you were still able to translate. Props.

What sofar said. Ppen, that made my night.

No it is not

Yes it is. Were it not for the plague killing off peons the industrial revolution could have been set back centuries. Loosing the vast majority of their manual labor upper echelons had to INVEST in machinery and education so the remaining peons could work that machinery and so on and so forth.

In addition the deaths of nearly 100 million native americans provided a pressure value for europeans to expand.

Like I said, sucks at the time, but nearly every population implosion event winds up being a net gain for the species

Double huh.

Maybe Art Deco is using Amy's blog to pontificate on his favorite topics because he knows he'll reach a much bigger audience than he will on a blog of his own.

The problem with asking single people to be abstinent, is now that people get married around 30 or so, it means that they would be celibate over a long span of their horniest years. It's a case where social expectations and biological ones don't align properly.

The problem with getting married earlier, is those marriages are less likely to be stable and last. The reality in today's culture is you DO need that extra education/prep time to get established in life.

Ppen, you are a gem.

I just love when people suggest that the answer to not getting a girl pregnant is "abstinence!"

And yet, it is 100% effective. And has a long track record of success.

There's always Rosy Palm. Hookers, too, if you actually desire another person. Or you can try gay sex, which is also 100% effective against pregnancy and also has a very long track record.

Different strokes for different folks, as it were.

Our way of living is become obsolete anyways due technology.

Best to hope that we don't have a upheaval and slide back into a Dark Age. Much of that technology is reliant upon electrical power.

Ironically, that's the one thing the progressives are aiming at making very expensive. 'cause of global warming, err, climate change.

Also, ISIS called and they said, and I quote: the 6th century AD rocked, baby!

I am electing Ppen as my representative on this topic.

Both can change my diapers. Our way of living is become obsolete anyways due technology.

If you fancy you can run a country like you run a hotel and just slash rates to fill the empty rooms, you're mistaken.

That aside, fertility rates are headed toward replacement values or below the world over. At the rate total fertility rates have declined since 1960, the global mean will be at replacement level within 15 years, and only tropical and southern Africa will be appreciably above replacement level. Most African countries have high crime rates and low levels of human capital. Attempting to integrate large blocs of Africans into European or North American society is likely to leave you in ... interesting times.

The problem with asking single people to be abstinent, is now that people get married around 30 or so, it means that they would be celibate over a long span of their horniest years. It's a case where social expectations and biological ones don't align properly.

The problem with getting married earlier, is those marriages are less likely to be stable and last. The reality in today's culture is you DO need that extra education/prep time to get established in life.

Posted by: NicoleK at August 29, 2014 5:06 AM
______________________________

Very well said.

As many here know, I admire Dr. John Rosemond most of the time because he does a decent job of combining the old and the new in his child-rearing advice - sort of like an old-fashioned liberal, though he calls himself conservative. As he often says: "I am not the anti-Spock."

However, whenever he happens to irritate readers who aren't already his enemies, it often seems to be in connection with his unspoken belief that young people need to get married as soon as they finish college - or earlier, if they don't want to go to college. (For the sake of their morals, dontcha know.) E.g., in one column, he told the parents of a 19-year-old girl to "do everything you can to keep" the presence of the girl's 19-year-old boyfriend, who was constantly putting her down, sitcom style, same as his father did with his family. Why keep him? Because "he’s not a partier; he doesn’t smoke or drink; he’s serious about his education; and he has a rational career plan mapped out." Says Rosemond: "He’s simply got some growing up to do. That’s forgivable, isn’t it?"

Well, he's also 19. So in all likelihood, they're not destined to stay together past 25 at the most, anyway. So I would have said "don't make your daughter defensive by being too negative toward him; just be there to comfort her when she's sick of telling him to stop it and he doesn't (his father never did) and she has to dump him. Even if he were nicer, the odds are they would both have changed and outgrown each other anyway."

But more importantly, from another column...

http://thesouthern.com/lifestyles/family/children-don-t-need-wishy-washy-parenting-it-s-ok/article_66144668-2939-11e1-8f55-001871e3ce6c.html

Most of this column is good, but at the end, he doesn't grasp that if modern fathers don't feel about their daughters the way Rosemond does, it's likely for the same reason that mothers are no longer allowed to die of grief when their daughters don't marry by 40.

I was in a rush. To clarify that last paragraph, I meant that it's one thing for parents to demand that minor children, even those over 16, not do reckless things or things that are deeply upsetting to those who are paying their bills, but it's quite another for parents to give speeches and restrictions to their daughters that they'd never give to their sons (especially in an age of child-support laws with real teeth), and in the same vein, once a daughter has left home for good, it's outrageous for fathers to have any rule other than "don't ask, don't tell." From then on, it's HER private life.

I'd also guess that any father, religious or not, who WOULD make such a speech as Rosemond suggested would be the same type of father who would have a heart attack if the daughter left home before getting married. (I have the impression that in some religious communities, that still isn't considered decent.)

I absolutely HATE the term “unplanned pregnancy”. Look, the biology of sex is simple and no one should ever be surprised when they become pregnant after having unprotected sex. I’m always especially angry when it happens to teens because IMO, that means the adults in their lives let them down. While I agree that teaching ONLY abstinence is about as effective as ONLY praying for cancer to go away, I can see the benefit of teaching abstinence mixed with safe sex. While being taught the science, I was also taught that sex should never be treated so casually that it loses all meaning. I can count the number of sexual partners I’ve had on one hand and have no regrets about any of them.

I actually think I might be getting what Art Deco is saying and can meet in the middle on it. What’s so wrong with teaching kids that they should wait to have sex only when they are ready and that when they are ready, they should take precautions to protect against not only pregnancy but STD’s? I think tying in the responsibility and accountability that comes with sex to the science is a very practical and realistic approach. If more parents modeled healthy sexual relationships then it likely wouldn’t even be up for debate in public schools but we all know that’s not happening. Instead, the cycle of teen pregnancy continues to repeat itself. But, schools don’t have the power or permission to teach that (and whether or not they should is absolutely up for debate) so they get stuck either teaching abstinence only or stick with the simple biology either of which parents can opt their kids out of citing “religious” beliefs.

Kids aren’t taught that sex should be treated respectably and how to be responsible about it so they aren’t fully aware of the physical, mental and emotional danger of on-going casual sex because, well, it’s everywhere. It’s on TV, movies, fashion, etc… It’s also the topic of many, many political agendas. Teen pregnancy and single motherhood is almost celebrated rather than treated as if it’s something that should be avoided. Kids are getting mixed messages about it. What kids walk away with is “Sex is fun!” or “If I get pregnant I can just get an abortion,” or, "this celeb is a single mom and she's doing fine!" instead of “maybe I should think about this before I let myself get caught up in something I’m not ready for.” Teaching kids that abstaining from sex with people who they don’t give a damn about isn’t a horrible idea. The way I look at it is: If you aren’t ready to accept what may result from that sexual encounter, than you aren’t ready for sex at all.

Let me add:
I’m not a prude because I've only had a few partners. I very much enjoy sex. I’ve just always been very picky about who I have relations with and I don’t think it’s wrong to teach teens that they should be picky too.
It’s about teaching them self-worth and valuing oneself enough to not believe that sex is what’s most important but that it can be safe and fun with the right partner. And of course, teaching them about the proper protection which seems to get lost in the mix.
This is a lesson that will carry into their adult years.

I am in agreement with Sabrina, and Art Deco, however pretentious his prose might be. And I think the original premise was poor.

We teach kids and adults to control their sexual urges towards all sorts of inappropriate partners, and in inappropriate situations.

A responsible adult, can restrain their sexual urges the same way, they restrain their murderous rages, and their insatiable sugar cravings at the all you can eat desert bar.

Just like it is best not to be driving and making those split second decisions at 80 miles an hour until you thoroughly know the rules of the road, abstinence is an extremely good policy until you are adult enough to accept and deal with the possible consequences of sexual intercourse.

Just because people are invariably going to fuck up, is not a good reason to throw all caution to the wind, and live your life with a "shit happens" attitude.

I find myself falling in with Isab, Sabrina, and Art Deco especially as it pertains to teenagers. Adults should be mature and have enough information to responsibly have sex. Ok, probably not.

Of course, the idea that every teenager was going to fuck like a bunny wasn't the expectation just a few decades ago as Art Deco in his own unique way has noted. There were community standards that were enforced with shame and the ostracizing of those who violated them much like Amy tries to do with her notes and display of pictures for those who have violated her notions of propriety in her neighborhood.

Yes, there were always those who still had underage sex and got pregnant but they were by far the minority. Now too many say, "let your freak flag fly, kiddo, there ain't nothing we can do because your sexxxxxuuuual urges just be too dang strong. We cain't do nothing!" If you don't expect better, you sure as fuck won't get it.

The teaching of abstinence will not reach everybody but, for those it does, it is 100% effective unlike any other method of birth control. Any reasonable person would consider it an option to be discussed and utilized in the appropriate situation...any reasonable person.

Abstinence is something a parent and community need to discuss and impart. Yes it works on people that have never had a problem with out of wedlock births in the first place. I agree that it's a good thing but....

Middle class white and Asian girls don't have kids because they're shamed into not doing it on top of having bright futures.

But to hark back to a better time seems odd to me. Middle class whites and Asians didnt have an issue then and don't have an issue now.

Teen pregnancies were worse in the Hispanic community back then and abstinence was taught except you were forced into marriages with the men you had sex with. That was the case with my mother and all her sisters. And almost every Hispanic woman I know in a certain age group (Sad but true)

There is also this myth that the reproductive issues in the black community are a recent phenomena. Girls were just married young so they couldn't have multiple baby daddy's.

So while that's great that abstinence works in responsible groups it's not so great for others.

It reminds me how gay men are asked to have more heterosexual mores about sex to prevent STDs.Well yeah ok.....mhm.....yes I agree they should ......but in my experience they won't so let's find another solution.

"So while that's great that abstinence works in responsible groups it's not so great for others."

Agree that it won't work in every case or even in most cases for the foreseeable future but it does work for some and is a viable option.

To completely disregard it as Amy does is to be purposely obtuse because it is not one of her favored methods.

No, its obtuse to say 'no one ever have sex unless you are trying for a baby'

Middle class asians and whites aren't abstaining until they're 30, though. They use protection and have access to good health care and options.

Anyhow, teen pregnancies are at a historic low since '76

https://guttmacher.org/media/nr/2014/05/05/index.html

Since '70, even, misread the chart.

Looks like the high was in the late 50s/early 60s

http://newamerica.net/files/Kaye-ppt.pdf

The second link is just birth rates, not pregnancy rates. But the birth rates are down for everyone, even blacks and hispanics. They also have pregnancy rates, but not as far back as for the birth rates.

Tell me again about these good old days with no teen pregnancies? Seems like the good days are... now.

Many people do not behave responsibly and will not behave responsibly no matter how much you educate them. The real question is, should society spare the irresponsible the consequences of their choices. A more difficulty and troubling question is should society spare the unlucky the consequences of being born to the irresponsible.

I'd like to know the exact PREGNANCY rates, as far back as possible. Of course abortion would change the BIRTH rates over the decades, but young people in the 1950s didn't necessarily abstain sexually from fear and shame as much as some people believe. Hint: Historian Stephanie Coontz wrote:

“Young people were not taught how to 'say no' — they were simply handed wedding rings.”

So, IIRC, the PREGNANCY rate in the 1980s was lower than in the 1950s.

I agree that parents, especially, need to teach a lot more about respecting other people's right not even to kiss if they don't want to - never mind anything more. Not to mention teachers' need to let students know that "it's pretty normal for MANY young people not to want sex, even if you mistakenly think everyone else is having it or that what's on TV is automatically cooler than what's not."

What's irritating, though, is when teachers get PAID to teach students to abstain until marriage or death, whichever comes first, like it or not, though of course it's not phrased that way.

Not that tons of people under 25 aren't capable of being terribly selfish, exploitative and hurtful with other "consenting adults," but that doesn't change the fact that getting married at 18 or marrying someone you barely know out of miserable loneliness is hardly preferable to having sex before marriage. Maybe "courting" works for some people (i.e., no dating before you're ready to find someone to marry) but not others.

BTW, here's a great tip:

http://www.salon.com/2014/07/06/10_things_i_wish_i_knew_about_sex_when_i_was_younger_partner/

"...sex can make things sticky emotionally and you can’t always know that in advance. You might go into it casually and come out attached, which is generally not a good thing and which led to the damaging result of not trusting my own judgement.

"What I wish I’d known was that the culprit is chemical. Sex releases oxytocin, the 'cuddle hormone,' which attaches us to the person we had sex with. According to author Susan Kuchinskas, estrogen increases the effects of oxytocin and testosterone blunts it, hence women often becoming more attached to men after sex..."

"Tell me again about these good old days with no teen pregnancies? Seems like the good days are... now."

Yup plus I' remember Howard Stern talking about how he had sex at Jew Camp at 16. Jews, Asians, white teens all have sex and don't end up pregnant. Why? They have bright futures and solid families.

That was so funny reading about the combination of rosy palm, abstinence and hookers could prevent unwanted pregnancy during those horny years before the age of 30.

Hm. Explain this getting hookers. Were you referring to men getting hookers?

What about all the females. Are they not horny? Do they also turn to female hookers?

Is pregnancy a worry for the professionals or do men just hire post-menopausal women?

I could only find teen pregnancy rates going back to 1970, but we are down since then. In all races.

Out of wedlock births for older women are up though.

Sterns Jew camp stories are great but my favorite is when he talks about his Jewish ancestry.

He found out the man he was named after, dumped his family in Europe to be killed by the Nazis cuz he met a hotter woman.

When he asked his mom why would he name him after such a monster Sterns mom replies "eh he bought me ice cream sometimes "

I went to Jew Camp!

http://kutz.urjcamps.org

Had sex with boyfriend from Jew Camp, but a few years afterward.

In case anyone is interested.

He later realized he was gay, but said such a sweet thing: "If I weren't gay, you'd be the one!"

He's now a Jewish doctor living in Miami.

Posted by: Amy Alkon at August 30, 2014 9:01 AM

Back in the fifties, those gay doctors, Jewish and otherwise,got married, and had families, and kept their recreational activities on the side.

No everyone thinks, you should make your sexual proclivities the focus of your personal and professional life, unless of course, your proclivities run towards 14 year old females.

In that case, you should go to jail immediately for even looking at pictures of women who "could" be under 18.

I don't think that is much of an improvement in our society.

I want to say, I think one word that should be banished from our national vocabulary is "virginity." (As opposed to virgin.) Virginity is not a sacred, tangible object; if you doubt that, when was the last time you heard a religious leader talk about the sanctity of MALE virginity? (Not that it can't happen, but I'm sure it's pretty rare.) Adult privacy, respect for others' boundaries, and consent are what should be sacred. Not to mention that playing with fire is just plain unfair to your parents when you're 12 and possibly fertile already - and you're not necessarily "ready" when you're 17. Even adults can make careless mistakes that they deeply regret.

I don't remember ever hearing the word "virginity" used by teens or adults in real life when I was a teen. The first memory I have of "hearing" it was when I read this gag-inducing synopsis of the 1980 movie "Little Darlings":

"Two 15-year old girls from different sides of the tracks compete to see who will be first to lose their virginity while at camp."

Naturally, I never wanted to see the movie, so I didn't. Somewhere in the back of my mind, I had to be thinking: "Please don't tell me that REAL girls ever 'compete' like that with something so private!"

(Maybe I should also mention that the high school I went to was quite mellow and had no double standards, official or unofficial, that I can remember. E.g., boys did not brag about being "players" or anything similar - at least, not any place where girls might hear them. It just wasn't considered mature to do that.)

BTW, I found this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/20/magazine/teaching-good-sex.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

For the most part, it's very good, but I found this part bothersome:

...For every single question that (teacher) Vernacchio pulls out of his anonymous question box about female ejaculation, there are 10 like these: How do you handle your insecurities in a relationship? How do you stop worrying about being cheated on? How do you know when it’s time to break up? How do I talk to my partner about wanting to spend more time together without being annoying? Watching how closely the students attended to Vernacchio’s often lengthy answers was a moving reminder of how young 17- and 18-year-olds are.

“As a society, we always tell kids, ‘Work hard, just focus on school, don’t think about girls or guys — you can worry about that stuff later, that stuff will work itself out,’ but the thing is, it doesn’t,” said a boy who had told me he had a disconcerting one-nighter with a girl he’d talked to only electronically. The class taught him to be more cautious about choosing the right time with the right person, he said, with a forcefulness that didn’t quite cover the hurt in his eyes. “You learn about the psychological after-effects that could happen to you.”...

(I can't help but suspect, after reading that, that what the adults meant by "that stuff will work itself out" was: If you wait until you're independent enough to leave home - i.e., AFTER you're 18 or more, you'll be far smarter and less likely to do something you'll regret. Sounds like the boy didn't wait that long. Not to mention that the emotional complications of dating too much and too early - with or without sex - can be seriously damaging to your grades and prospects.)

And one comment, from "FormerDemocrat,"reads:

"I applaud Mr. Vernacchio and his approach, but the article omitted one important thing: Does he address asexuality?

"Particularly in the context of all this sex-positive energy, and all this validation of a great variety of 'normal,' it's imperative that teens be taught that being asexual is also 'normal,' and that one can be completely positive about sex while simply having no desire to engage in it oneself...

"...I remember growing up in the first wave of the sexual revolution, during the 1970s, and the intense pressure to which I subjected -- from all sides, even from my 'Our Bodies, Our Selves' -wielding liberal mom --to have sex. Somehow, in my stubborn, half-in-denial, somewhat passive-aggressive way, I managed to resist the pressure and avoid having sex until I was a senior in college. But it wasn't easy, and it took me another decade -- a decade of confusion and lots of hurt feelings on all sides -- to figure out I had been asexual all along. I would hope that Mr. Vernacchio could extend his good will and generosity of spirit to today's asexual teens, so that they could suffer less confusion, hurt and drama than I did."

And here's another comment:

David Bartlett
Lake Superior, MI
"While Mr. Vernacchio may seem a bit TOO glib and informal for some tastes, he at least eases young people over that awkward hurdle that can still be an annoying factor even for adults, the 'gross', 'icky' specifics (in almost too excruciatingly accurate of detail) of bodily parts and their functions.

"That done, the focus can turn to what really matters most, the needs of a fellow human being. This is not something generally within the purview of consideration for most adolescent boys, so if Mr 'V' can enlighten these young men to the possibilities for sharing TRUE warmth, affection and intimacy with another person, that will have made all of his efforts worth the price of admission-----that is to say, an antidote to the naysayers.

"If these young people can leave his classroom and say, 'You know, I would love you even if you were in a wheelchair', he will have bestowed the ultimate lesson upon his students."

Pre WW2, I'm sure abstinence worked pretty well in the western world. And pre cable and 24X7 news and scandals and lack of firings from the job for sexual indiscretions(or whatever), I'm sure it worked well in Asia too(which would have been probably around early 90's). Now I guess it is too late to turn the clock back with internet and cable and hollywood and glamourised white world lifestyles being touted as the ultimate thing on earth.

"No, its obtuse to say 'no one ever have sex unless you are trying for a baby'"

I can't see where anyone said that.

You arent paying attention then

All I can say is teenage pregnancies drop off dramatically after age 20 . . . ;->