Remember When Women Used To Demand Equal Treatment?
Quaint.
Now the advice to men is this: "Leave the women alone, even if you think they merit criticism."
As I've said it before, women are now demanding to be treated like eggshells, not equals.
via @MarkTrueblood
That quoted line just KILLS me, and this whole issue hits close to home for me.
To be fair, there's a LOT of inequality with how women in the gaming industry are treated compared to their male colleagues.
Scenario 1: Man writes something about a video game that the (mostly male) audience disagrees with. Man is called an idiot, n00b, p*ssy, f*ag and numerous other awful things on Twitter/on FB/in the article comments.
Scenario 2: Woman writes something about a video game that the (mostly male) audience disagrees with. Women is called horrible things as well, but she also gets rape threats and other threats of violence. If the woman has her photo and other personally identifying details attached to her work, she will receive terrifying emails, FB messages and, as was the case of several of my female friends, have her address and other contact information published. One of my female friend's wrote something "controversial" while interning for a major gaming site a while back, and had strangers calling her at work and even had a guy approach her at the campus McDonald's, hand her a threatening note and walk away. She called the police. I know more men than women who write about gaming for a living, and NONE of them have experienced anything close to that.
Yet, none of those women would have written "Leave women alone, even if you think they merit criticism." They welcome good, solid, non-threatening criticism -- because it gives them a chance to absolutely TROUNCE the people who want to argue with them. They know their stuff. I'm guessing Amy has gotten some creepy threats herself.
So, yeah, the gaming community needs to work on its little sexism problem, but handling women with kid gloves isn't the way to do it. My personal favorite solution: you see other people making violent threats, CALL them on it.
sofar at August 29, 2014 8:58 AM
This essay about Anita Sarkeesian and a bit about Zoe Quinn has been going around:
http://nastythingssaidabout.wordpress.com/2014/08/26/the-terrible-misogyny-in-the-games-industry/
The comments, if you choose to believe them, finds it endorsed by many many game developers, men and women.
I know very little about gaming, but it reflects much of what I have seen in other areas of the software industry.
There is tons of laziness and outright terrible journalism these days. I think it's exemplified by Adria Richards and donglegate of which I believe almost all reasonable observers when given the facts of the case would decide that Richards was way out of line and yet, she was given largely positive reviews by most of the press and donglegate was portrayed by the press as yet another example of men acting terribly towards women when it showed just the reverse.
jerry at August 29, 2014 9:24 AM
So, yeah, the gaming community needs to work on its little sexism problem...
Don't think it's limited to the 'gaming community' ... at all.
And not even to just men.
http://www.salon.com/2013/10/02/my_embarrassing_picture_went_viral/
DrCos at August 29, 2014 9:33 AM
I'm having this issue on a message board because I dared suggest women who are insecure about their looks and constantly requiring validation from their boyfriends are annoying as fuck and should be told as such.
What kind of response am I getting? That you can't be honest with them because they'll internalize the self hate even more and won't open up further. Huh? So they'll shut up? GOOD
If all you do is obsess over your looks while complaining that's all the media/men care about then you are part of the problem.
Ppen at August 29, 2014 9:38 AM
Don't think it's limited to the 'gaming community' ... at all.
Oh believe me I don't think that. It's just that this article WAS about the gaming community, and I didn't want to stray OT ... too much. The article Amy linked was an oversensitive piece of crap, and I was calling it such.
And not even to just men.
Point taken. In reference to your article, I would say women being more critical of female cosplayers than male cosplayers is also sexism and needs to be called out.
And women tend to get a lot more crap than men do about this stuff (from both men AND women). Yes, male cosplayers absolutely get made fun of too -- there was the Mens' Fitness debacle from a few years back, for example. But these days I see a lot more memes/macros that make fun of female cosplayers. For every one I see that makes fun of Fat Thor, I see 10 that make fun of women for being inaccurate in the portrayal of a character or not the right body type for their costume.
sofar at August 29, 2014 10:21 AM
she was given largely positive reviews by most of the press and donglegate was portrayed by the press as yet another example of men acting terribly towards women when it showed just the reverse.
I absolutely agree. In most of these cases, it's the anonymous internet hive minds lobbing threats and inappropriate criticism (primarily against women). People who are actually EMPLOYED in the industry and have a public face in it are hugely supportive of women (and as you point out, are actually swinging too far the other way in suggesting that women get a free pass from criticism).
sofar at August 29, 2014 10:26 AM
This guy is a just a standard One Good Man.
http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/the-one-good-man/
It's really just a form of macho posturing.
And that macho posturing is compensating for an inadequacy:
http://www.avoiceformen.com/misandry/chivalry/the-failed-manhood-of-white-knights/
Jim at August 29, 2014 10:38 AM
Women can be just as vile and vulgar as men. A regular commenter here, who is the mother of young children, wished the most vile, brutal, and evil rape scenario that I have ever heard on me all because I don't think Tea Party people are the ones most likely to bomb a large race. It was so disgusting in language and intent that I was floored. At least one other person out here approved of that verbal attack. I won't mention her name bc I am sure that in the cold light of day she has the good sense to be ashamed of herself for spewing such bilge, but I won't ever forget it. It certainly was revealing. So, no this is not just a problem that men have.
Sheep Mom at August 29, 2014 11:50 AM
It's natural for feminists to try to coopt, disrupt, and manipulate the male-space of gaming. It's a manifestation of feminism's Marxist drive for omnipresent power and totalitarian control.
Lastango at August 29, 2014 12:57 PM
It's natural for feminists to try to coopt, disrupt, and manipulate the male-space of gaming. It's a manifestation of feminism's Marxist drive for omnipresent power and totalitarian control.
Holy Hyperbole, Batman! Did some icky girl try to climb into your tree house? It's one thing to say that gaming is male-dominated. That's just a matter of math. But to call it a "male-space?" Why would you do that?
The gaming sites I frequent seem to have readerships that skew a little older. As a result, I really haven't seen much of the vitriolic stuff discussed in the Slate article. But I have seen hints of it. I remember one commenter decided he had to "take issue" with the design of a particular mod on a gamer's site. Not "don't agree," not "dislike," but "take issue," as if he'd been insulted. He wouldn't shut up about it, either, and was quickly banned.
Old RPM Daddy (OldRPMDaddy at GMail dot com) at August 29, 2014 1:41 PM
This is the feminism I was raised with:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSuQZx_0q_Y
Michelle at August 29, 2014 4:00 PM
@"It's one thing to say that gaming is male-dominated. That's just a matter of math."
It seems like it might be time to leave that notion behind:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/08/22/adult-women-gamers-outnumber-teenage-boys/
"Study: More women than teenage boys are gamers"
"Men still make up 52 percent of the game-playing population, but women, now 48 percent of the gaming population" ... basically now even.
Lobster at August 29, 2014 4:01 PM
Lobster, how were they defining "gamers" in that poll?
People who only play MMORGs? Or anyone who plays anything, including FarmVille and AngryBirds
lujlp at August 29, 2014 5:48 PM
One person with an axe to grind, a good internet connection and too much time on their hands can create an "environment" on a websIte. A small political group that is motivated can make multiple internet "environments" seem anything they want. Shockingly! groups have learned this and have shills on the internet pushing their politics in contrived and stealthy ways. Add in a Media that wants any queue to peddle their politics and its a 'radicalism becomes law' utopia.
Any story that uses the inherently stealthy nature of internet 'interactIon' is bogus to the core....... akin to junk science.
One correction -- IME -- is women don't want to be treated like eggshells. These storIes and the recent appalling California legislation are pushed by a clear minority of women, and pussy men, inculcated by a radical collegiate feminism. It's ultimately winning out in the political World because of frightened and cowardly non liberal political groups, apathy, general stupidity, and a Media looking to change society one bullshit story at a time.
tw at August 29, 2014 8:22 PM
Luj, I did a research paper on the subject a couple of years ago, and at that time, the various studies/papers showed that between 38-46% of MMORPG players were female. I can dig up the studies I read, but don't have them handy to refer to at the moment.
I can tell you I'm in my 40s, female, and a gamer. Most of the women my age and younger that I know game too. There's this assumption that you're weird if you're a woman who plays video games, so I think we just don't talk about it as much.
Kimberly at August 29, 2014 10:59 PM
This is the feminism I was raised with:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSuQZx_0q_Y
Posted by: Michelle at August 29, 2014 4:00 PM
______________________________
I don't get what you're saying.
Given that the cartoon is a well-known excerpt (written by Shel Silverstein for the album/tv special) "Free To Be...You and Me," are you referring to the album's viewpoint, or the viewpoint of the fictional girl?
And when you said "raised," do you just mean what you saw around you, or what your family actively taught you?
I'm reminded of a 1970s Doonesbury strip, in which the somewhat world-weary Joanie Caucus is working at a day care center and trying to get the little girls to think twice before wanting to be mommies and nothing else (not verbatim):
Girl: "I talked with my mother about what you said yesterday about women, Ms. Caucus."
Joanie: "Really?"
Girl: "Yup. She said you were wrong. She said that being sweet and pretty are all that's important for a little girl."
Joanie: "Well, maybe one time that was true, dear, but-"
Girl: "And Mommy said something about a 'pedestal' that I liked very much!"
Joanie: "WHAT?"
Girl: "Ms Caucus, I WANT to be a sex symbol!"
Joanie: "I think it's time for milk and cookies..."
lenona at August 30, 2014 6:53 AM
And how do these vile people vote?
Radwaste at August 30, 2014 7:19 AM
Lenona - raised with the viewpoint of the album. The film was regularly played at my preschool, so I saw it around me - at an age where I thought television and film were reality.
And then I was actively taught it at home.
The essentials were: you are responsible for your choices, work for what you want, life isn't fair, I will always love you no matter what, tell the truth, you can read anything you can get your hands on, do not touch firearms without adult supervision, sex is a very special thing between two people who love each other very much/ you do not owe someone sex in exchange for dinner, drugs make people crazy (insert 1960s era story of friend turned object lesson), and if I ever hear that you gave a substitute teacher a hard time you will have me to answer to.
My father also taught us firearm safety and self defense basics, and valiantly tried to spark my interest in coding. Both parents instilled in me the right to do whatever it takes to get home safely (implicit in this was, there is no Prince Charming who is going to save you).
There was a lot of hard work, scary risks, and celebration of completion (even when I lost the student council election) - no pedestals or kid gloves.
Michelle at August 30, 2014 9:08 AM
Glad to hear it.
With some other people here, had THEY posted the cartoon, I might have assumed they didn't know where it came from - and that they thought the girl was being "feminist" rather than stereotypically feminine.
Reminds me of what the British Christian poet/novelist Jean Ingelow (1820 - 1897) once wrote on women's rights:
"I don't approve of them at all. We cannot have rights and privileges, and I prefer privileges."
As I've mentioned before, I wonder if she ever read Sojourner Truth's famous 1851 speech. (For those who don't remember, Truth pointed out that, even as an ex-slave, she'd never had ANY feminine privileges.) Not to mention that, as Miss Manners once pointed out, poor women of all kinds have always worked for a living.
Ingelow also said, on the need for lower classes:
"Why, if the swarms in the weaving and the spinning world are to be thinned, who will bring a revenue to the cotton-lord? If the crowded alley is to be deserted, who will make our shirts and our gowns? and if at the parish school we bring up all the children to fly like nestlings as soon as they are fledged, where are our housemaids and nursemaids and cookmaids to come from?....No; truly God made my servant what he is; God placed me over him: let him work — it is his duty; let me play — it is my birthright; and let none of us presume to wish that God had placed us otherwise! That is what people say — at least a great many of them."
lenona at August 30, 2014 12:20 PM
"I don't approve of them at all. We cannot have rights and privileges, and I prefer privileges."
I preferred adventures and heroes. I loved the stories of Laura Ingalls Wilder and Annie Oakley. I was in awe of Anne Frank. It was powerful for me that these were real people with legacies of deeds in words and (sometimes) photographs. I reread their stories to imprint on that although life is scary & hard, if you keep showing up, it is also amazing and beautiful. What I wouldn't have given for Laura's lightness, Annie's flawless aim, Anne's inner grace. But their legacies also revealed that they were self aware, reflective, often constructively honest about what was unflattering. They each had a durable sense of self and a readiness to evaluate, regroup, and go forward.
I remember thinking that Rapunzel must have been amazingly bored. And if she had all that hair, couldn't she just cut it off, tie it to the bed post, and climb down her own braid? It didn't add up.
I recently picked up a copy of "The Story of Harriet Tubman, Conductor of the Underground Railroad," by Kate McMullan. It is a children's history book, and riveting. She fought for freedom, hers and others', ceaselessly. She was bright and bold, resourcefully and uncannily strategic, repeatedly crushed but undaunted. She could have stayed safe but she chose instead to follow through on her commitment.
There are so many real life resources available to model for girls and other children a life of self realization beyond permissions and privileges.
Michelle at August 31, 2014 7:34 PM
I remember thinking that Rapunzel must have been amazingly bored. And if she had all that hair, couldn't she just cut it off, tie it to the bed post, and climb down her own braid? It didn't add up.
___________________________
Well, in a way, it did.
Before she met the prince, where would she have gone before she starved to death?****
Also, she clearly wanted to save her hair, so AFTER she met him, she asked him to bring a skein of silk with every visit, which she would have turned into a rope ladder had things not gone wrong. (BTW, in the old version - I'd love to find a novel version - Rapunzel accidentally gives away what's happening when she tells the witch "I wonder why my clothes are getting tight. They don't seem to fit me anymore.")
(****Sort of like those poor real-life girls whose story was told in the horrific 2002 movie "The Magdalene Sisters" - they outnumbered the nuns, but practically no one on the outside had sympathy for the girls, most of whom had done nothing harmful to anyone. Hard to believe the "system" lasted until 1996! More on that: http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2590/did-the-catholic-church-in-ireland-imprison-wayward-girls )
lenona at September 2, 2014 9:44 AM
For me it crosses a line when you start posting someones address, typical daily commute, where their children are, among other very personal details of their lives. I can't remember if it was Zoe or the other one where the police got involved due to credible death threats and property damage.
On that level everyone should be 'left alone' regardless of gender.
Intertwined with this story is the authoritarian urge many in the software industry and government to bully people into producing what they want instead of what the producer wants. I can't count the number of times I've heard people trying to bully game companies into producing games women like. Well guess what. Management at game companies care about only one thing, money. If they knew how to make games women like and could make money at it they would. If you want female oriented video games why not be more proactive and do it yourself?
Ben at September 3, 2014 7:21 AM
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