The saluting business was initiated by those afflicted with ODS so severe, that even the most petty of infractions -- such as saluting with a cup in hand (when, in fact, the President is not required to salute at all) -- is hyperbolized into eclipsing Watergate.

And Bush saluting with his dog, Barnie, of course, is the liberal response to this hysteria.

When I was in the army, the response to a salute when it was impractical was to say, "By your leave, [insert appropriate honorific here]." Which was explained to me when I had broken my right arm and was unable to render a proper salute due to the thumb spike on my cast.

Objectively, Bush should be more condemned for his sloppy salute while holding his dog. Bush served in the military (albeit in a champagne unit for the sole purpose of keeping him from combat); his failure to exercise proper saluting protocol is therefore inexcusable.

Awwww...darn. I forgot to include my Sarah Palin reference to get Crid and Dave B. all worked up. I was going to give an example of Sarah Palin's ODS with her nails-on-chalkboard shrieking about how Obama once gave an address while someone else held his umbrella. "Here in the U.S., we hold our own umbrellas," Palin self-righteously nagged. Oh, do we, Sarah?

Now Crid is going to make his comment about how "weak males" (which is Cridspeak for gay males) are threatened by supposedly beautiful, successful, powerful women. And Dave B. is going to call me a pissant.

Oh come on, we have had evidence for years that our current President, is a careless lazy narcissist, who does nothing but play golf.

I hardly need pictorial evidence to reinforce my opinion.

Can we get actual confirmation on whether we're at war with ISIS or not?

Can we even declare war on an entity other than a sovereign nation?

Did anyone get Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein's opinions on this, or are we going to just stew in a media frenzy directed and run solely by Americans?

I mean, let's not have tunnel vision on this important topic.

Trending:

#actualAmericanmilitaryveteranslaughingatcouchwarriors

"Awwww...darn. I forgot to include my Sarah Palin reference to get Crid and Dave B. all worked up."

Unnecessary Patrick. They were born worked up. I'm actually pretty surprised you beat Crid to the punch. ;)

"But Obama has previously passed by a Marine without saluting -- and that got noticed as well."

"The salute formally recognizes the officer as a military superior, and returning the salute expresses the officer's thanks for the junior's support," the manual reads."

I don't know how it works in the Navy, which s the regulation that applies in the case of Marines, but in the Army it is a pretty serious breach of courtesy and thus a pretty serious offence for an officer to fail to return an enlisted soldier's salute. In fact it's an insult, because it meanas the officer fails to recognize the soldier as a fellow soldier. Basically it's calling him a civilian.

And in that connection, if a civilian President fails to observe the proper courtesies, well.....he's just a civilian after all. It's a little unfair to expect those people to know or show any couth.

This has had the predictable result: Obama supporters directly comparing their hero with Bush - as if that was an excuse.

Well. A salute? Here you go. I wonder if Mr. Obama has done such a thing? Is he greeted warmly by servicemen?

Patrick, how many Democrats have been sheltered by their parents from Vietnam?
If they did it, then it's perfectly OK for GWB to be in the ANG. I know you don't want to be inconsistent.

The point is, this doesn't matter except in childish, schoolyard arguments. Either your guy is performing or not.

Not. Pretty much the end of the story.

Now, point at somebody else, quick!

When I was in the army.... ~ Posted by: Patrick at September 24, 2014 7:49 AM

Thought you posted in a much earlier thread that you were in the Air Force.

Can we even declare war on an entity other than a sovereign nation?

I was set to agree with you, but upon further review, ISIS

controls territory
sets and enforces the law in that territory
collects taxes
provides services
has a capital

I'd say they are a proto state. But they do state-like things, such as the production and selling of oil. We hit some of their production recently, but they were allegedly making about $2 million per day from the oil facilities under their control.

Just because no one else recognizes their authority doesn't mean they don't have authority.

...(albeit in a champagne unit for the sole purpose of keeping him from combat).... ~ Posted by: Patrick at September 24, 2014 7:49 AM

Some "hideout" that was. From Aerospaceweb.org:

George W. Bush was assigned to the 111th Fighter Interceptor Squadron (FIS) at Ellington Air National Guard Station.... The 111th was part of the 147th Fighter Wing in Houston, Texas.

The Air National Guard has often been ridiculed as a safe place for military duty during the Vietnam War. However, pilots from the 147th Fighter Interceptor Group, as it was called at the time, were actually conducting combat missions in Vietnam when Bush enlisted.

Bush inquired about a program that would have sent him to Vietnam as a fighter pilot, but was told he lacked the required flight time (500 hours) to be admitted to the program and that the program would soon be cancelled as the F-102 was being withdrawn from Southeast Asia as the need for interceptors had diminished (again, from aerospaceweb.org):

Fred Bradley, a friend of Bush's who was also serving in the Texas ANG, reported that he and Bush inquired about participating in Palace Alert. However, the two were told by their flight instructor, Maj. Maurice Udell, that they were not yet qualified since they were still in training and did not have the 500 hours of flight experience required. Furthermore, ANG veteran Col. William Campenni, who was a fellow pilot in the 111th FIS at the time, told The Washington Times that Palace Alert had stopped accepting new applicants before Bush would have been eligible.

The F-102 that Bush flew in the Air National Guard was not a plane for the faint-of-heart (again, from aerospaceweb.org):

...the F-102 was still far more dangerous to fly than today's combat aircraft. Compared to the F-102's lifetime accident rate of 13.69, today's planes generally average around 4 mishaps per 100,000 hours. For example, compare the F-16 at 4.14, the F-15 at 2.47, the F-117 at 4.07, the S-3 at 2.6, and the F-18 at 4.9. Even the Marine Corps' AV-8B, regarded as the most dangerous aircraft in US service today, has a lifetime accident rate of only 11.44 mishaps per 100,000 flight hours. The F-102 claimed the lives of many pilots, including a number stationed at Ellington during Bush's tenure.

So, in all, Bush's service was certainly more strenuous than Dan Quayle's chauffeur duties in the Indiana National Guard.

Or the doctorate studies of Phil Gramm and Newt Gingrich.

Or Senator Al Gore, Sr.'s son's six months behind the lines as a reporter.

Or Bill Clinton's duties in the Arkansas National Guard. Oh wait. Clinton promised multiple times to report or join ROTC, but never did. I don't think anyone, certainly not anyone who was subsequently elected president, ever conducted as many scams as Clinton did to avoid military service. At least, when the roll was called at Ellington, Bush was there.

Perhaps only John Kerry can stand with Bush as having had an assignment that would bring him close to, but not actually in, combat. Unfortunately for Kerry, Elmo Zumwalt had sent the swift boats into hostile waters right after Kerry volunteered for what was until then a non-combat role. Luckily for Kerry, he would "earn" three purple hearts in rapid succession (all without spending any time in the hospital) and be allowed to transfer to safer duties.

In fact, the candidates in the last 4 elections have had all the war-hero stature of Michael Dukakis in that tank. With the exception of John McCain no one with an authentic military record has run for president or vice president since 1996.

Conan: None of that will ever matter, because the story is "Bush, like all those cowardly Republicans, wanted to get out of fighting!".

That mere evidence suggests the contrary (and that, equally, he chose the ANG because he loved flying, according to the reports I read from his contemporaries) is irrelevant; it's all about being able to sneer at The Other Side.

(And I am glad someone other than me remembers that the Swift Boats were ... not doing river work when Kerry first volunteered for them.)

On the saluting thing, I've seen military types on Facebook express the idea that being saluted by a civilian is impolite, and that the President probably shouldn't be saluting soldiers, no matter who he is.

I'd think that being Commander in Chief would be different from some random civilian, but ... it's not my culture and set of customs, is it?

I've never thought of Bush as being anything other than a smart wealthy kid who used his connections to jump to the front of the line in the Guard to save himself from combat.

If he'd wanted to go to Vietnam, he could have signed up for active duty and gone, like Kerry.

Those of us who remember the draft and watched as our friends and family were sent off to die don't dis Bush for trying to stay safe; we dis people who trivialize Kerry's service while trying every single possible reason to prove Bush heroic.

He wasn't, but be clear - I don't hate Bush for that. Clinton took his college deferments because that's what was offered at the time. Bush took the Guard. Kerry volunteered to go. Cheney took five deferments, not even trying to do something like join the Guard. Ted Nugent refused to bathe and soiled himself to be rejected for service.

Not everyone wants to be in a war. Not even Rush Limbaugh.

If he'd wanted to go to Vietnam, he could have signed up for active duty and gone, like Kerry. ~ Posted by: Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at September 24, 2014 5:11 PM

Kerry enlisted in the Naval Reserve when he graduated from Yale. He was immediately sent to OCS. With his student deferments gone, going into the Naval Reserve as an officer sure beat getting drafted into the Army as a grunt. I don't blame him for making that choice.

In filling out his duty requests after his tour on the USS Gridley, he put Swift Boats first on his list.

"I didn't really want to get involved in the war. When I signed up for the swift boats, they had very little to do with the war. They were engaged in coastal patrolling and that's what I thought I was going to be doing." ~ John F. Kerry

To be fair to Kerry, his second duty choice was Patrol Boats (PBR), which were actually involved in the fighting when he included them on his list.

In fact, my only problem with Kerry's military record is that he tried to make it into something it wasn't when he was running for president - making himself out to be the modern-day equivalent of Sergeant York and Audie Murphy rolled into one. Otherwise, his service was probably no better or worse than anyone else's in an undeclared war that had lost its direction and purpose.

"Those of us who remember the draft and watched as our friends and family were sent off to die don't dis Bush for trying to stay safe; we dis people who trivialize Kerry's service while trying every single possible reason to prove Bush heroic"

I don't dis Kerry for that. I dis him because he is a nitwit, with a talent for marrying wealthy women (and not much else)

He is also really good at opening his mouth and sticking his foot in it.

I think his team was the one that started dissing George Bush's military service, proclaiming Kerry as the *real* war hero, and then the Bush people fought back.

I know that it is foul play when Republicans fight back. Totally unfair. I get that.

"I know that it is foul play when Republicans fight back. Totally unfair. I get that."

Nah, you don't get it. At all.

Clinton took his college deferments because that's what was offered at the time. ~ Posted by: Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at September 24, 2014 5:11 PM

Clinton did way more than take his deferments. As a graduate student, he was no longer eligible for any deferments (Congress had eliminated them by the time he was called to report).

Clinton lied, cheated, and manipulated his way out of having to report.

From snopes.com:

Although what he did may not have been against the law, Clinton's broken promises and contradictory statements about his efforts to avoid the draft were prime examples of the kind of self-serving doublespeak that later earned him the sobriquet "Slick Willie." As [David] Maraniss concluded in his Clinton biography, First in His Class:

"It was just a fluke," Clinton would say decades later, when first asked how he had made it through this period without serving in the military. But of course it was not a fluke. A fluke is a wholly accidental stroke of good luck. What happened to Clinton during that fateful year did not happen by accident. He fretted and planned every move, he got help from others when needed, he resorted to some deception or manipulation when necessary, and he was ultimately lucky.

Greetings, Conan. Thanks for the information about Clinton's slick efforts to evade the draft. I was unaware of this, and my estimation of Clinton just dropped.

Regarding your recollection that I said I was in the Air Force, I was never in the Air Force. My service was for four years and was entirely in the Army.

A possible explanation for the confusion might be the fact that I was stationed at Ft. Bragg, NC, which is basically attached to Pope Air Force base. Pope provided the C-130s and other services for the Airborne personnel to maintain their "jump" status and the qualifying extra pay.

Plus their gym was better than any of the gyms I used on Bragg, and I did make frequent use of Pope AFB's.,

I grew up in military culture; I'm an Army brat. Every member of my family has served. I almost served. There's nothing about the regulations that anyone could google that I don't already know. I don't think most of us would actually have been upset if he never saluted as he doesn't have too.

My issue with Bama's caffiene salute was the arrogance and laziness in which it was done. Either do it right or don't do it at all.

Regardless of the fact that he's the Commander and Chief and those men are simply doing thier duty, he owes them at LEAST a proper aknowledgment. I don't care if he was exhausted because he just came back from a three week survivaal marathon in the jungles of Peru being chased by cannibals with fire... These are the men that ensure his right and freedom to make all his hopey-changey promises. These are the men that would be shipped off to fight if his promises about ISIS are ever fulfilled. He certainly wouldn't hesitate to let them jump in front of a bullet for him if someone else had been waiting for him to deplane with nefarious purposes or worse, going after one of his family. In the very least, he owes those men a simple, respectful greeting. A simple, polite head nod would do. He didn't even dain to even so much as look at them. For a man who claims humilty and pride in his country, his arrogance knows no bounds.

I won't get into the Bush salute because that's just... sad. His lazy salute was inexcusable.

Plus their gym was better than any of the gyms I used on Bragg, and I did make frequent use of Pope AFB's. ~ Posted by: Patrick at September 25, 2014 4:23 AM

Through friends and various jobs, I have visited several military bases - Army, Navy, and Air Force. The Air Force bases always had better food and facilities.

"The Air Force bases always had better food and facilities."

The joke always was that when the Air Force was going to build a new base, they spent all the money on clubs and amenities and then went back to Congress for more money for the air strip and the hangars and whatever else they actually needed.

Being president is a shit job and the process of becoming president is a shit process that is bound to ensure that only shitty people even get considered.

I'm in my 40s, so let's break down the presidents I remember and their records:

Carter - Shitty domestic record, shitty international record. + Camp David accords

Reagan - Mediocre domestic record (economic success hugely affected by Fed, stupid escalation of "drug war" led to pointlessly high incarceration rates), decent foreign policy record (though would be considered a weenie by current right wing).

Bush I – Mediocre domestic record, good foreign policy record (success in Iraq war I, avoiding entanglements in Soviet Union collapse)

Clinton - Generally successful domestic record (economic growth, welfare reform), mediocre to poor foreign policy

Bush II - Shit domestic record (Depression the second, PATRIOT act), shit foreign policy record (Iraq war, authorizing war crimes)

Obama - Mediocrity personified.

Whoever's next, it doesn't matter. They'll be shit and we'll hate them.