Bartender Mercies
A little dating advice for misguided boys who'd like to go home with the girl -- or at least eventually have some prospect of that -- rather than always watching her go home with somebody else.
More "Good Manners for Nice People Who Sometimes Say F*ck":
The best thing a guy can do is start talking to a woman. I've started a lot of conversations by commenting on something that was going on in the immediate vicinity. Being funny helps. If you can't be funny, then be sincere (but not creepy).
Andrew Hall at January 23, 2016 9:02 AM
It takes a LOT of personality to impress me immediately, so if one doesn't have that, subtlety can be very important. In the same vein, if you're an average kid, who wants to be popular in middle or high school, you have to act as though you're too cheerfully busy and involved to care about whether you have anyone to hang out with on weekends. Otherwise, you're going to come off as insecure - and dangerously vulnerable.
lenona at January 23, 2016 9:46 AM
Exactly, Andrew Hall.
And it turns out that spontaneous humor -- the sort where a guy makes a funny remark off the cuff -- is a big mate value cue, per research and thinking by Geoffrey Miller. Not surprisingly, it seems to be a truthful indicator of intelligence. (As opposed to mere joke-telling.)
Gregg, who, the day I met him, was wearing a shirt with the mange and the oldest sneakers I'd seen on someone who wasn't homeless, was also wearing smart-guy glasses. But they would have been a signal that turned out to be meaningless had he not been smart -- and witty.
Amy Alkon at January 23, 2016 10:00 AM
Andrew: "The best thing a guy can do is start talking to a woman. I've started a lot of conversations by commenting on something that was going on in the immediate vicinity
That's the best advice because it does 2 things:
1. It gives you something to say after "Hi".
2. It starts the 'ball' rolling.
Always be yourself.
The girl that does not like that is a waste of time so don't spend hard earned money on buying stuff or trying to be something you are not.
If the situation is funny ("Did you see what I saw?") good. If not, don't force it.
Some guys are naturally impressive in some ways but most of us are just another guy in a dark loud place so don't sweat it. Be your self. Notice her w/o being "needy".
Don't worry about "what to say". Just be honest. (W/o thinking I blurted out to a lady working out nearby "You've got nice back muscles." which came out/is pretty lame so I simply shrugged. She cut me a break and we had a nice hour together in the sauna.)
They have noticed you and passed judgement before you even walk over so don't invest too much in either success or failure. It's just a conversation and a very pleasant way to pass the time (women are the greatest gift God gave to man).
Bob in Texas at January 23, 2016 10:08 AM
Bars are an extremely bad place to look for a relationship.
Only slightly more successful than chatting up hookers in Times Square....
Unless you are a serious drinker looking for another serious drinker.....
Isab at January 23, 2016 11:33 AM
Bars are an extremely bad place to look for a relationship.
This. Do you really want a relationship with women who hang around bars, waiting to be picked up?
Get involved in some activity. Choose one that has a decent ratio of the opposite sex.
Taking a dancing course is an obvious one for guys - there are all kinds, choose one you like. There is always a shortage of guys. You get to dance with lots of different women, most of them single. You have something to do, with chances to talk in between. Don't push the pace, get to know people over several weeks, before even thinking about asking someone out.
For the gals, something physical, like biking or climbing. Or maybe a computer course, or a course in geology, or... Same rules, take your time, enjoy the activity, get to know people.
Hanging around bars. Bleh...
a_random_guy at January 23, 2016 12:31 PM
Always be yourself.
_________________________________
Trouble is, anyone who's struggled with high school unpopularity will tell you that "being yourself" is often what will KEEP you unpopular. Miss Manners points this out all the time. Travis Bickle (I know, fictional) was just "being himself" when he took his date to a porn movie and, IIRC, didn't even guess that it might be a bad idea. Maybe Travis didn't know any men who DIDN'T do that on dates, but that was his problem, not hers.
Or, as the wise man said: "Do NOT do unto others as you would have them do unto you; they may have different tastes."
lenona at January 23, 2016 1:33 PM
I understand why group activities seem like a better idea than bars, but typically they're not.
This is really for two reasons..
1. You have to invest a considerable amount of time in the activity in order to meet anyone - you can't just show up the first time and start asking people out.
2. Once you've dated a member of the group, it's harder to date someone else - everyone knows they weren't your first choice, and that you're just there to meet women.
So basically it's a high investment into a one and done opportunity - too much risk, too little reward.
Then there is the Yoga Paradox. Some groups that seem like good environments for meeting women are anything but.
A friend of mine experienced this. He joined a couple of Yoga groups hoping to meet some cute Yoga girls. And he was met with utter hostility.
As it turns out, guys in Yoga are assumed to be creepy pervs and a lot of women into Yoga are new agey Feminist types who have issues with men. A normal heterosexual guy is walking a minefield in this environment.
Jake at January 23, 2016 5:33 PM
Taking a dancing course is an obvious one for guys
Whenever a male friend laments that he's not meeting women, I say, "Learn to dance and come out with me. You will meet ALL THE WOMEN."
In our city, we actually have a shortage of women at most social-dancing venues. Even so, it's a fantastic way to meet women. Because it's one of the only social settings where it's normal for a stranger to say, "Hi, come spend the next five minutes in close physical contact with me." Even people not dancing and sitting at the bar are more open to being approached because that is the norm at these venues. Plus, these things attract a regular crowd, so there's no stress to "close the deal" that night; you'll probably see the lady next week.
If you're a passably good dancer and have enough swagger to have fun with the music, have social skills, and are charming, you'll clean up.
As Jake points out, it can get awkward if you date someone in the scene and it doesn't work out, but, if you frequent a dance venue that attracts 300 people every night, it's probably fine.
sofar at January 23, 2016 6:31 PM
"1. You have to invest a considerable amount of time in the activity in order to meet anyone - you can't just show up the first time and start asking people out."
No shit Sherlock....
Yoga? Seriously? They were probably all progressive tree huggers, and assumed he was gay. You have it right there.
If it isnt an activity you already *want* to do, don't do it to meet women (or men)
It doesn't work that way.
Make sure you enjoy the activity for its own sake because the idea is to meet people who enjoy the same things you do.
(This is why you meet Barflys when you go to bars)
I suspect the best place in this day and age to meet people who have similar interests is online.
My daughter met her SO playing Call of Duty. Knew him on line for months before he finally stopped by in person and took her out to dinner.
And Lenona, the reason it is a good idea to *be yourself* (even if it is a kinder gentler version of your slob self) is that few people can keep up the pretense of being someone else for the twenty of thirty years or so, you might want to stay married....
Isab at January 23, 2016 6:44 PM
Some activities: the gym or yoga, and some would say bars/meat markets have become worse than useless, because the women there have their defenses up, every man is assumed a creep unless proven otherwise.
Other activities are more productive: Hiking has been a good one for me. It is a couple hour walk talking with people, or listen to what they have to say. At worst you got some exercise.
As to the problem Jake mentioned, of date one and done, it depends on how large and consistent the group is. Too small and everyone knows everyone and one and done is a possibility, too large and if you don't make your move on first meeting it may be a long time before you ever meet her again.
As to where to find groups, meetup.com is a good place to start. It's a webhosting for clubs/interests.
Joe J at January 23, 2016 7:38 PM
Isab: "If it isn't an activity you already *want* to do, don't do it to meet women (or men)"
Amen!
Every so often we have a woman join one of our hiking groups who is clearly on the prowl for a husband - more annoying than bear shit in the woods!
I, personally, have yet to see a man join expecting to meet women. Although I sure that has happened; just not in any of my hiking groups.
charles at January 23, 2016 7:38 PM
My parents met at a bar--one is an alcoholic and the other an enabler. Both previously twice divorced.
Ppen at January 23, 2016 9:44 PM
The suggestion of dance lesson reminds me of one thing. Several years ago a letter appeared in the weekly newspaper...on the same page as Amy's column if I remember correctly. It went something like this (not exact quote but close):
Thank you for recommending ABC dance studio in your Valentines addition. My list of gentlemen looking for class partners reached 100 -- the sudden increased lead me to ask several of the gentlemen why the interest and they revealed it was because of your recommendation. I realized that in 1.5 years since I started the list I have not been able to remove 1. So I am stopping keeping the list. I encourage everyone interest to find a partner. Same sex is fine. Many of my women clients come with other women. And the blah dance which I teach is even traditionally done by two males! Jane Doe owner/teacher at ABC studio
The Former Banker at January 23, 2016 11:19 PM
It reminds me of something else:
Years ago I was really desperate and went to a life coach who specialized in dating. At one of her group meetings I paired up with one of her advanced clients and I was to go to these dances he went to. The first one was a small one. About 50 % established couples and 50% single guys. There was 3 unattached girls - not very attractive - who gave me shit when I tried to talk to them. The night was the 2 of us guys bs'ing with the other single guys. I bitched to the coach about it. Still I went to the much bigger event. Very much like high school, very cliched, and don't even think about dancing unless you are a real good dancer. He introduced me to some much older women (I was late 20s, I guessed they were about 60) and we made polite conversation...seems they had some sort of power...then we bs'ed with a couple of his friends. There appeared to be few available women -- particularly in any one age group. Again I bitched, She replied that it dancing so there had to a be a lot more single women then men...and "Joe" always says it is fun. Joe confirmed the small one was typical, the large one had a particularly large number of available women but also more really good dancers so was harsher then usual and they didn't do any line dances which what he usually participated in.
The Former Banker at January 23, 2016 11:47 PM
Once you've dated a member of the group, it's harder to date someone else - everyone knows they weren't your first choice, and that you're just there to meet women.
Yeah, sorry to pile on, Jake, but the idea is to go to something you actually have an interest in.
I met my college boyfriends almost entirely in my church young adult group. In retrospect, it's a good thing I didn't marry any of them but they were/are all great guys. In grad school, I basically did as most female scientists do and dated a fellow scientist. We've been married 18 years.
Astra at January 24, 2016 7:07 AM
You need to decide whether you are playing a 'long' game or a 'short' game and what 'prize' you are looking for.
Like some others I went the dancing lessons route (would have brought wifey and I together except she was looking for Mr. Right and found him quick - oh well).
My city went from 3 studios to 1 and then built back up to where today there are dancing "communities" devoted to different dances (salsa, Argentine Tango, Social dancing, even '20's themes such Charleston and Balboa). Sadly for me I had to move and can no longer enjoy them.
My point is that all of the above comments are true. Many cliques much of the time, however that is only a problem for a short game w/a 'hook up' partner. That problem can be solved by observation (who 'hooks' up and w/whom - teachers or students).
Long-term game w/'prize' being a mate is simply a matter of becoming accomplished at dancing (immediate is plenty good) and NOT dating at your primary studio until you become friends first. (Always a good thing anyway.)
Can not believe going anywhere other than a bar (maybe Partners w/o Partners) to look for 'hook up (short game) is successful.
Bob in Texas at January 24, 2016 7:20 AM
lenona: "Trouble is, anyone who's struggled with high school unpopularity will tell you that "being yourself" is often what will KEEP you unpopular."
Being popular should come from doing what you like w/others of similar interests and being a good person. Unfortunately during the teens and early twenties peer pressure and hormones override this.
Peer pressure combined w/hormones has got to be the worst thing Mother Nature ever devised as a 'darwinian' method of seeing who survives.
Boys doing anything they can to get 'laid'. Girls delivering 'packages' for their bad boy boyfriend. If you survive that environment you deserve the time to experiment to see what fits "you" and what doesn't.
That's the you that your mate/SO should decide they want to be with. Not some 'pretend so I can fit in' version.
Don't fit in. Move on. Expand your environment to include those you can tolerate spending time with. Be a good person. Your 'popularity' will be there.
Bob in Texas at January 24, 2016 7:30 AM
I guess the Baptists are right, then: dancing does lead to fornication...
-----
About "poisoning the well" in dating within a group: keep in mind that since you picked a group with interests similar to yours, the likelihood of finding someone lovely went up a great deal just because of the venue. That should offset the perception that you are just looking for casual sexual partners.
Radwaste at January 24, 2016 8:28 AM
Bob, just so you understand, I wasn't talking refusing to conform to some high-school clique; I was talking about teens who are just plain unappealing in appearance and behavior to ADULTS as well as to their peers - and for the same reasons. Bad smells, bad language, lack of humility OR a severe lack of confidence, etc.
In other words, there's good conformity and there's bad conformity. Don't confuse them; even a five-year-old can understand the difference a lot of the time, such as the need not to allow one's classmates to bully someone.
lenona at January 24, 2016 10:22 AM
I have to side with Lenona here. If you aren't succeeding then you need to change something. You can change where you are but changing bad behavior works too. Look at the columns Amy publishes. You have plenty of people with blatantly toxic behavior. Telling them to stop their bad behavior is quite reasonable.
Ben at January 24, 2016 1:27 PM
I have to side with Lenona here. If you aren't succeeding then you need to change something. You can change where you are but changing bad behavior works too. Look at the columns Amy publishes. You have plenty of people with blatantly toxic behavior. Telling them to stop their bad behavior is quite reasonable.
Posted by: Ben at January 24, 2016 1:27 PM
Telling people to stop their *toxic behavior* is like tilting at windmills.
A large percentage of it, is either mild mental illness, or other biologically driven traits.
Some people have characteristics that make up for a toxic personality, like a few extremely talented musicians, scientists, or doctors (think House)
Other bad behaviors are just bad habits, and can be changed with sufficient desire to change, which is entirely different from trying to pretend to enjoy Yoga for instance (to get some SJW to like you).
Isab at January 24, 2016 3:01 PM
My experience has been that these groups are poor places to meet women -- well single women. There has been two groups I have stuck with long term (greater than 1 year). One has yet to have a woman attend who was not just along with her spouse. The other had plenty of women - majority in fact - yet none were single (there was some H.S. students the attend for awhile and they got some sort of credit for it).
What the others have said is definitely true based on my experience. The one-attempt-and-done definitely seems true -- and that is true whether you are there because you are interested or to meet others. All the groups had a small core -- 8 people or less...any others you just had the one chance. Really that part seemed no different than meeting at a bar.
Frankly anywhere I meet new people it seems like their guard is up.
The Former Banker at January 24, 2016 9:11 PM
keep in mind that since you picked a group with interests similar to yours, the likelihood of finding someone lovely went up a great deal just because of the venue - Radwaste
I don't know about the groups you are part of, the ones I have been part of it is just one topic of interest and only slightly enhanced the matching chances. For example, I just recently went to a series of films by the same director/studio -- not much to build on - doesn't say a whole lot about them. I guess it does depend as someone mentioned a church group. Oh, and the other people there have the same advantage.
The Former Banker at January 24, 2016 9:24 PM
I applaud your doctrine of hopelessness and despair Isab.
Ben at January 25, 2016 6:31 AM
Yeah, so I'm a long time ballroom dancer. (Continuing to give the game away, sigh...) I see a lot of things happen in the studio. One of the things us regular dancers lament sometimes is that there are people who come in and they learn to dance, but their primary motivation is to find a spouse. Once they've done that, we never see them again. I sometimes wonder how their lives go once they stop doing the activity that brought them together. Maybe they both understood that it was only a means to an end, but...
" My list of gentlemen looking for class partners reached 100 -- the sudden increased lead me to ask several of the gentlemen why the interest and they revealed it was because of your recommendation."
I'm guessing these were mostly men looking for competition partners. That's a different deal. If one aspires to high-level dancing competition, there is a long list of constraints that the partner will have to satisfy in order to form a strong competitive partnership. Even among experienced dancers, finding a partner for serious competition is notoriously difficult. Some dance competitors actually move and change jobs to live closer to a dance partner. In some ways, it's much harder than finding a suitable spouse.
As for the rest: When people come in to the Friday night dance who are on the prowl, regular dances spot them quickly. If they are men, they will only ask the cute girls. And they will probably try steps and patterns that are beyond their skill level to try to impress their partners. If they are women, they will turn down a lot of dances and only accept dances from the men that they think might be suitable partners. (Which is their right... but it's considered unsocialable; men take note of women who frequently turn down dances and stop asking them.) And they will rub themselves all over said partners.
We do also occasionally get that weird sub-species of newbie that comes in specifically because they have an issue with the opposite sex. I've never been quite clear on the motivation; if they are trying to get themselves acclimated to interacting with the opposite sex, or if it's some kind of revenge thing. They usually wind up causing trouble.
Cousin Dave at January 25, 2016 1:55 PM
ditto Cousin Dave.
Former Banker, if you are in a location where social groups are small I'm not sure what advice anyone can give you other than do the things you like to do and you will those that might be compatible.
Wife (2nd) and I took some sporting clay lessons from a great coach. He met his SO when she came for lessons. Now that's some odds 'cause 20 years ago not many ladies were shooters in that area.
It's frustrating waiting but ...
Take heart. Cherry 2000 may be right around the corner soon if Apple gets on the ball.
Bob in Texas at January 25, 2016 4:35 PM
@cousin Dave -- I doubt it was professional dancers...I figured it was guys looking to meet women like was suggested here -- the recommendation was from the valentine's day addition of the weekly paper. Another one of those seems like it would be good but is actually quite a poor place to meet women.
The Former Banker at January 25, 2016 7:06 PM
Thing about joining a group which has a purpose, serious or otherwise, is that you are, and see people who are doing the purpose. They are spending less time being "on", and less energy.
You get to see them as they are.
And, since you're going to be there anyway, you are, in effect, meeting others without any expenditure. They're showing up on their own, too.
Back in the day, in the judo club, a young woman--rookie--asked me to teach her the hip throw. More than some moves, teaching the hip throw combines the physical intimacy of being stuck together in a phone booth with the personal connection of a torrid tango. And you do it over and over, slowly at first, faster as she gets the hang of it.
It's practically like an introduction.
Richard Aubrey at January 26, 2016 11:22 AM
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