Interrupting A Play That Offends You Is Not Free Speech; It's Free Thuggery
Now we've got right-wing pantywads joining the whinging babies on the left.
These two sets of rotten adult children have something in common, and it's that they're confused about free speech.
In New York, during Shakespeare in the Park's production of Julius Caesar, a Trump-supporting woman named Laura Loomer charged the stage -- and was accompanied from the audience by another Trump supporter, Jack Posobiec.
According to Ben Shapiro's post on this -- from the second link above: Posobiec began shouting to the crowd that they were "all Goebbels, you are all Nazis," and that they were to blame for the shooting of House Majority Whip Steve Scalise.
From Gateway Pundit's link above (top link above):
Laura was arrested for speaking out against this performance.
No -- she was not. See the videotape below. She was arrested for disrupting it.
More from Gateway Pundit:
The left keeps calling President Trump a fascist dictator, but speaking out against assassinating a Democratically elected President apparently gets you arrested in New York City. Laura needs our help to pay her legal fees. We can not let a woman who dares to speak out against leftist violence be imprisoned for it.
Oh, and the headline:
Proud Conservative Woman Was Arrested Tonight at Trump Assassination Play - Help Pay Her Legal Fees *HERE*
She's might be a "proud" conservative woman, but what her actions indicate is that she's a damn rude one who quashes others free speech.
Free speech doesn't mean you are free to shout down other people's expression or otherwise stop it. It means that you get to speak, too. Too. As in, also.
So, no, you absolutely have no right to storm the stage. However, what you do get to do is to, say, protest outside the theatre. All day and all night if you want. Presumably, as long as you don't, say, light any fires or back up the traffic.
If you are arrested in doing that or roughed up in any way, I will be outraged and defend your rights -- as much as I can (which probably just means blogging and tweeting about them and expressing my outrage at your free speech being squashed). (Such is the nature of my free time, which is slim to non-existent until I finally get my book to bed.)
And please, people on the right howling that there's somehow been some injustice done here, let's not pretend that this woman has somehow been treated terribly or unfairly.
She rudely and illegally stopped a production that other people were watching and that many people worked hard to put on. The content here is immaterial. It does not justify her squashing of other people's speech.
Again, I celebrate and defend the rights of free speech for all people, including the biggest assholes out there and people I vehemently disagree with.
What you do not get to do is to stop other people's speech and call it free speech on your part.
If you do this, you're just a bigmouthed thug. As was Laura Loomer and as was Jack Posobiec.
The video:
BREAKING: Julius Ceasar Gets SHUTDOWN pic.twitter.com/ITgfMR0tHE
— Jack Posobiec 🇺🇸 (@JackPosobiec) June 17, 2017
Loved this:
The alt-right, terrified by New York theater since 2017.
— David French (@DavidAFrench) June 17, 2017
Sorry this offends you but it was inevitable.
The Left, for decades, has held the Right to the standards of the Rule of Law, Civility, Christian ethics, strict Constitutionalism etc, all the while mocking and/or violating all of these doctrines.
They are like the girlfriend who swings a frying pan at her boyfriends head, screaming 'You can't hit me! I'm a GIRL!'
Civility is a MUTUALLY AGREED UPON DOCTRINE. He doesn't hit a girl because she is a LADY. SHE has obligations too!
When that mutual thing breaks down, at some point, well, those doctrines go right out the window.
Treat the Right and the Left for a moment as a couple in one of your columns. Except moving out is not an option. Think "War of the Roses" unless the pushy party starts behaving.
THAT is what we have to look forward to.
The Right has discovered Alinsky. We will hold the Left to their values and use their tactics.
Your beef is not with the Right. It is with the unregulated Left who keeps swinging (and shooting) for the fences.
We are literally DYING and you are whining that we are uncivil to a Left who privately applauds our murder and wishes Hodgkinson was a better shot?
FIDO at June 16, 2017 11:17 PM
More pithily: The Left keeps breaking the Rights toys and laughs. When their toys start getting broken, they might consider changing their behavior.
FIDO at June 16, 2017 11:25 PM
Your beef is not with the Right. It is with the unregulated Left who keeps swinging (and shooting) for the fences.
Best not to assume.
I'm neither right nor left and I frankly don't care what the position is or whether I agree with it when somebody's trying to squash others' speech.
I am for free speech, and stopping others' speech doesn't count. As I noted above, that's thuggery, and no amount of whining that you're the new Joan of Fucking Arc will change that.
Amy Alkon at June 16, 2017 11:31 PM
I am not attacking you as a Leftist taking pot shots at the Right. You have clearly been evenhanded in attacking the idiocy and dangerous trends that the Left has been engaging in. You have been doing that a LONG TIME.
I am noting this: The Left is getting worse, and the Right is tired of taking it in the shorts by 'being the better person'.
For me, this is just a pair of people trying to publically shame people being aggressively rude and obnoxious. They don't even have the excuse of thoughtlessness. They went out of their way to be as rude and obnoxious as possible.
I read this red headed bloggess who advocates in stridently and memorably calling out rude assholes. The more publicity the better to 'leave an impression'...if necessary because they aren't listening to things like blog posts and notes. You might try her stuff. She's a hoot.
Yes, she has to be a rude asshole to correct rude assholes. Paradoxical. It seems to work for her.
Sometimes a shove is a much more effective form of communication than all the discussion in the world.
Just saying.
Again, what reason does the Left have to change when they still enjoy full Free Speech rights as they deny them to other people?
I would REALLY like an answer to that question.
FIDO at June 17, 2017 1:29 AM
The progs hate it when people from the right go all Alinsky on their asses.
Make them live according to their own rules. If it is perfectly fine for antifa/black blok/BLM, then it's perfectly fine for everyone else. There can not be two sets of rules.
I R A Darth Aggie at June 17, 2017 5:23 AM
A bit from The Guardian:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jun/17/trump-supporter-interrupts-controversial-julius-caesar-play-in-new-york
Amy Alkon at June 17, 2017 5:34 AM
Speaking of two sets of rules...
https://pjmedia.com/instapundit/267744/
I'm sure this turkey still has his twit-ter account. Yep, still has his account.
https://twitter.com/James_J_Devine/status/875070675106627585
I R A Darth Aggie at June 17, 2017 5:36 AM
There are two types of right wingers - those who denounce this, and those who want to win.
Saul Alinsky's Rules for Radicals:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DCgEDb6UQAAUzbm.jpg:large
As fellow canine FIDO stated, the left has successfully been doing this for decades. Now the right is finally copying their tactics.
Snoopy at June 17, 2017 6:18 AM
Think of them as modern day Rosa Parks - breaking the law to fight an injustice.
Snoopy at June 17, 2017 6:20 AM
The left is literally shooting at Republican Congressman (no article here about this though), and you're complaining that the right is not playing by Marquess of Queensberry rules? This is why the left has been winning for decades.
Snoopy at June 17, 2017 6:26 AM
There is no such thing as collective guilt or collective innocence. Saying that these particular performers and audience members, whether they lean left or not (and you don't know that they do), must answer for the tactics of Black Live Matter, Antifa, or James Hodgkinson is ridiculous. Do you think Laura Loomer and Jack Posobiec changed anyone's mind?
Also, dressing up Julius Caesar as the current president is a pretty common production decision. The entire theme of the play is that assassination is bad, and these right-wing nuts would probably know that if they bothered to read a book. I'm with Amy 100% here.
Jay Hall at June 17, 2017 7:01 AM
On Monday, a Public Theater spokeswoman said: “Our production of Julius Caesar in no way advocates violence towards anyone particularly after that public assassination attempt which makes us look like violence advocating rude assholes which we thought was funny last week...until our funding was cut and now THIS..
Shakespeare’s play, and our production just this last weekend, make the opposite point: those who attempt to defend democracy by undemocratic means pay a terrible price and destroy the very thing they are fighting to save and we are only learning this NOW that we got some push back from the public who are using THEIR Freedoms to call us out fiscally and physically.”
I believe this is called 'spin'.
It was all fun and games until someone loses an eye.
FIDO at June 17, 2017 7:13 AM
Jay Hall,
When Giffords was shot, collective guilt was all the fashion on the Left. Anyone who said anything critical of Obama and Democrats was fostering a 'climate of hate'.
Did you cry foul then?
Ditto Sandy Hook. Ditto anyone else the Left could stretch any kind of tenuous connection between a bad event and Republicans.
Well, the line between this play company, Kathy Griffin, and all the Lefty spastic twitter nuts wishing the president was dead and the recent shooting is a hell of a lot more direct than trying to pin the Muslim guy shooting gays for Allah on the 'climate of hate' fostered by Republicans.
So your conversion to 'no use for collective guilt' is probably an incredibly RECENT and self serving phenomena.
As long as the Left uses it and denies rights to others, why should they get any benefit of the doubt or free use of THEIR rights?
Yes, this is edging toward the precipice. It would have been nice to have avoided this, but I am not the one pushing the issue.
FIDO at June 17, 2017 7:39 AM
Hope this link works...
https://www.bostonglobe.com/arts/theater/dance/2017/06/12/tycolumn/3qEjEKUasc5cvko0sjBYgJ/story.html
It's from June 12.
Ty Burr is a well-known film critic and author of some very good books on film, including the 2007 "The Best Old Movies for Families" (he did not get to see that stage production of JC, as he makes clear).
Anyway, he points out, in painstaking detail, that JC is anything BUT pro-assassination, however much one might despise Caesar or any other leader.
Not to mention that there was another production of JC with an Obama-like Caesar, IIRC.
lenona at June 17, 2017 7:49 AM
In other words, one might consider the decision to make JC look like Trump to be a warning by the producers against inciting too much rage against Trump.
lenona at June 17, 2017 7:52 AM
French, at least in this case, is a moron. Or, no, he's not."terrified".
When you don't like something for valid reasons, someone will accuse you of "hate", or "fear". Nonsense.
But when the obvious reason is, you've done your homework and you're objectively right about something, they've got jacksquatall but dismissive labeling. In this case, among a bazillion, "terrified".
Richard Aubrey at June 17, 2017 8:00 AM
> those who denounce this, and
> those who want to win.
"Winning" is a big theme with you. Strength, brains, courage and kindness rate nowhere in your estimation. You're all about "winning."
Might we presume you're a "loser"? Even if none of us would use such a word for someone else, the laserlike focus of your obsession brings obvious implications.
Well, that and seeing no discernable "victory" in disrupting idiots during a skit.
Crid at June 17, 2017 8:31 AM
IOW, Team Amy.
Crid at June 17, 2017 8:31 AM
Civility is a two way street. Either we have universal standards or no standards. So this is a perfectly predictable event and will continue increasing in frequency.
Ben at June 17, 2017 8:43 AM
Ben+1
N at June 17, 2017 9:24 AM
The good thing about this is that it really is dredging up the deranged alt-right who have no use for freedom. They just care if it's *their* boot on everyone's throat. To wit:
"When that mutual thing breaks down, at some point, well, those doctrines go right out the window."
Two wrong make a right. Got it.
"This is why the left has been winning for decades."
GOP has both houses, the White House, most state legislature and governorships. But sure.
"I believe this is called 'spin'."
No, it's called Shakespeare. You should read him sometime.
Mike at June 17, 2017 9:31 AM
Exactly Ben.
There were multiple Democratic lead violent assaults on Trump's campaign
There have been multiple numbers of Lefty assaults on the free speech rights of Conservative speakers and men's rights groups.
Middlebury, Berkeley, Mizzo, Evergreen State, Berkeley again (and constantly) antifa.
Now the Left has one (1) intemperate response. Be still my heart.
They can have civility hen they earn civility by OFFERING civility.
As Amy pointed out in her book and blog, there are 'social free loaders' who want the goodies of a civil society but pay little to nothing in return.
That can describe very vocal and active groups in the Democratic party and these same people harrumphing about ONE PLAY being protested were happy to read about Liberal protestors stealing other people's free speech rights. They wrote ponderously about 'hate speech is not free speech'.
Note, this is not Amy. She has been consistent on the issue.
This however, is not about free speech, except as a message that if everyone doesn't have it, no one else will have it. That the Left can and will suffer loss by trying to change the rules.
It also has ZERO to do with Julius Caesar the Play. Red Herring. It was a nice little convenient snuff fantasy for Liberals up until it became politically inconvenient. So stuff the textual analysis. I'm not buying it. It's a dodge.
The big problem was that JC took over the government by having armed bands of thugs running around trying to break government and scare people into silence.
Does that describe Trump or does that describe his opponents?
We got the Left on video...
FIDO at June 17, 2017 9:46 AM
Mike,
It isn't that two wrongs make a right. But that normal is normal. At this time interrupting activities that don't support your politics is normal. It may not be good but it is an every day run of the mill event. A poor farmer starving in Somalia is not good. But it happens all the time and no one talks about it. The only thing note worthy in this event was a Republican supporter did it. Other than that there was nothing of significance.
Democrat supporting groups have been normalizing this kinds of behavior for decades. Today it is normal. Being shocked or appalled that water is wet is foolish.
Ben at June 17, 2017 10:02 AM
I'm with Amy on this one. Answering your opponent's thuggery with your own is counterproductive, even if it is a bit gratifying; even if answering your opponent's thuggery with calls for reason and civility go unheeded.
The conspiracy to kill Caesar, in the play, was driven not by anything Caesar had done against the people of Rome, but because the conspirators feared he might do something if he got power; they were driven by the sum of their own fears. And in being driven to murder, they destroyed the Republic they claimed they were trying to save.
Anyone who thinks dressing Caesar as Trump is celebrating the assassination of Trump, including anyone who intended it to mean that, has not read Julius Caesar.
Conan the Grammarian at June 17, 2017 10:18 AM
So your conversion to 'no use for collective guilt' is probably an incredibly RECENT and self serving phenomena.
Conversion? What are you talking about? I've been a libertarian-leaning conservative since high school (like many high school students, Ayn Rand awakened me to the ridiculousness of collectivism and its nefarious enmeshment with leftist politics). I was in college when Gabrielle Giffords was shot, and I wrote an editorial for my college newspaper about why blaming Sarah Palin was ridiculous. You don't know me at all, so you have no reason to accuse me of being inconsistent on this issue. Absolutely ridiculous.
Jay Hall at June 17, 2017 11:10 AM
> "Winning" is a big theme with you.
Sure, I'll just step out of the way and let you big boys conserve our debt free, small government utopia like you've done for so long.
BLM does the same thing, e.g.:
http://fox2now.com/2014/10/04/michael-brown-protesters-interrupt-symphony/
No blog article on this site about it, no arrests made...
Snoopy at June 17, 2017 11:18 AM
The entertainment value of the last two years simply can't be quantified.
So awesome. Americans have lost their shit over him and his goofy tweets and his pretty wife and his money.
So a couple of "conservatives" (really? it's conservative to raise hell during a play?) rushed the stage and acted the fool. Yeah, arrest them for disturbing the whatever and forget them.
Anyone dumb enough to ape the 'antifa' morons deserves a night in the clink.
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at June 17, 2017 11:37 AM
It is New York Gog. Some flexibility with the term 'conservative' may be required.
Ben at June 17, 2017 11:59 AM
Right and wrong notwithstanding, it's inevitable that the right is going to muse...if it's okay for them......
And it's demonstrably okay for them.
Productive or not, notwithstanding.
If the right lives up to the left's rules, say a good many observers, the left may not be happy. So how about considering this a warning that the right may decide that the left's rules were better all along. Can't do better than that for approval, now can you?
Richard Aubrey at June 17, 2017 1:38 PM
The whole brouhaha is beyond idiotic. I was an English major before I became a lawyer, know the play (which I've seen performed many times) practically by heart, and I've seen this particular production. Neither Shakespeare's play nor this production of it glorify assassinating a leader, whether it be Caesar or Trump. Quite the opposite -- the point of the play is that using violence, whatever your intentions, eviscerates the very values you were trying to preserve. It is an ANTI-assassination play.
Also, the play has been performed using other current leaders about a zillion times. In 2012, a performance in DC used an Obama look-alike. Versions have been done using Bill Clinton, George W, Reagan, Abraham Lincoln, David Cameron -- and yet there was no stink and no one thought the play was advocating assassination. Indeed, the American Conservative positively reviewed the Obama version.
The point of using a current leader is to bring the play more immediately home to modern audiences.
That's not spin. It's fucking cultural literacy. Not that there's a lot of that these days.
Gail at June 17, 2017 1:46 PM
It is interesting that in many cases the left can shut down speeches, riot, incite riot, and nothing happens, but one woman rushes the stage who is conservative and she gets arrested.
cc at June 17, 2017 1:53 PM
I'm not disagreeing with you on this, Amy; but, as others have noted this has been going on for a long time by those who claim to be on the left. That someone who claims to be on the right is doing it doesn't surprise me.
In fact, I feel like saying - geez louise, it is about time someone punched back! How many times can people, not just feel, but, actually be under assault and not hit back?
charles at June 17, 2017 2:07 PM
List of recent attacks against conservatives:
http://dailycaller.com/2017/06/16/this-list-of-attacks-against-conservatives-is-mind-blowing/
Game theory pretty much predicts that there will be a response to this, and it is starting.
Snoopy at June 17, 2017 2:16 PM
BlackBrunchNYC protests disrupt ‘white’ N.Y. breakfast spots - again no outrage by Amy:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/01/05/blackbrunchnyc-brings-police-brutality-protests-to-white-breakfast-spots/
Snoopy at June 17, 2017 2:18 PM
Gee, Snoopy -- did you really go back to 2015 and read every last one of Amy's columns to see whether or not she chose to discuss that
one particular incident you decided to cherry-pick off of google?
Gail at June 17, 2017 2:24 PM
> Sure, I'll
Sarcasm!
> I'll just step out of the
> way and let you big boys...
In no sector of our cosmos, nor in any probability +0.9 deep-paravector Star Trek Parallel Universe adjacent hereto, could any sane human being describe me as one of the "big boys."
The 'Little Man's Persecution Complex' is starting to look like a leading component of Trump enthusiasm: He may be raping *me*, but at least he's getting away with rape!
Meanwhile, I'm still not seeing how acting like the infants you least respect furthers any interest of yours.
Amy's blog is a often-wonderful venue... But do you really think it's supposed to be tracking your obsessions hour-by-hour?
Crid at June 17, 2017 2:26 PM
Some person who was on the left side of the political spectrum didn't hold a door open for a conservative in Poughkeepsie in 2009 and Amy didn't write about it as far as I can remember. That proves this entire blog is part of the vast left-wing media conspiracy
Gail at June 17, 2017 2:37 PM
The left pulls this shit about 1000x what the right does. Conservatives cannot even TALK on these frigging college campuses, or haven't you noticed?
Bring things even partially back to balance and we can talk.
Chester White at June 17, 2017 3:42 PM
"Anyone who thinks dressing Caesar as Trump is celebrating the assassination of Trump, including anyone who intended it to mean that, has not read Julius Caesar."
+10
And there you have it: public concern, ginned up by outrage but in no way informed.
Rome would have fallen a lot faster if they'd had Twitter & Facebook.
Radwaste at June 17, 2017 4:17 PM
Said it before: from when I was on campus fifty years ago, the left can't recruit many mesomorphs. And, by extension, veterans.
You don't want, really, to get that bunch fired up.
I competed in lax and judo. I was an Infantry officer. Airborne.
So if four weedy antifa pencilnecks try something on me and I figure I've met the self-defense criteria for my jurisdiction, what do you expect to happen? Expand that by about a dozen million.
And it wasn't our idea.
How about they knock it off? That way, nobody gets hurt.
Richard Aubrey at June 17, 2017 6:02 PM
Shrug.
Gail, please continue to give me literary criticism. I mean, we have only had 8 months of protests, assaults, riots, threats, calls for violence, calls for revolution and now assassination attempts. But please...continue to talk about the republican underpinnings of Elizabethan England.
I mean it is SO contextually useful. The term is 'willfully missing the point'.
All that is necessary is for the Left to stop hitting and killing the Right. All that is necessary is for the Left to stop calling for violence against the Right.
They haven't. They won't. Why?
Elections get lost. Put your big boy panties on and suck it up. Your side has been losing elections for 6 years now and you still won't try introspection.
Riots, denial of rights, assault, shooting, but not introspection. Hmm.
We have left the civility phase of politics. We have left the 'loud shouting' stage of politics.
We are now in the 'hitting back' stage of politics (though compared to any of the recent violent actions by the Left, this is pretty weak tea).
If a man is hitting his wife, his family has some responsibility more than saying 'you shouldn't do that, Travis'. At some point, they need to act to avoid complicity.
So far, the Left hasn't moved a muscle. So we will need to find our own.
This is getting very dangerous very quickly and all I am hearing from Lefties is 'unilateral disarmament'. Because being hit back is no fun.
Which is the point of this action.
FIDO at June 17, 2017 7:30 PM
> Some person who was on the
> left side of the political
> spectrum didn't hold a door
> open for a conservative in
> Poughkeepsie
Dafuq?
Wait… You're saying that actually happened???????
Well, I'll be cot-tammed.
How do those animals sleep at night?
When you talk that way, Gail, it's like you think the good people of the world will never subscribe to a single model of excellence and decent procedure.
But MORE-THAN-THAT, Little Miss Ivy, you seem to be happy about it.
It's like you WANT a contentious & competitive dialectic for civilized achievement. You don't even care if people don't get along every day in every way without lifting a finger or thinking things through or occasionally making exceptions for strangers.
How dare you. How dare you.
Crid at June 17, 2017 9:39 PM
Let me remind everyone that at this moment, the 24 Hours of Le Mans for 2017 is not yet two-thirds complete.
What have YOU done with this beautiful springtime evening?
Crid at June 17, 2017 9:42 PM
> again no outrage by Amy
Again?????
*****
Amy! C'mon, Red Sister!
Where's your
Crid at June 17, 2017 9:48 PM
> Which is the point of
> this action.
Barking like a loon at summer theater is "action"?
Iowahawk said a thing today.
Crid at June 17, 2017 10:50 PM
By the way, the sun is totally up in France right now. LMP1 is a mess.
Crid at June 17, 2017 10:52 PM
What Richard Aubrey said. You can expect me to treat you as well as you treat me.
MarkD at June 18, 2017 4:55 AM
Cable went out. Just got it restored. Sunday morning plans shot.
Conan the Grammarian at June 18, 2017 11:20 AM
"There is no such thing as collective guilt or collective innocence. Saying that these particular performers and audience members, whether they lean left or not (and you don't know that they do), must answer for the tactics of Black Live Matter, Antifa, or James Hodgkinson is ridiculous. Do you think Laura Loomer and Jack Posobiec changed anyone's mind?"
That wasn't the point. For better or worse, we've moved past that. The bullet that entered Steve Scalise's hip last week signaled the start of American Civil War II. It wasn't an attempt to change anyone's mind. It was a very-low-grade action against the (real or perceived) enemy. It is possible that higher-intensity actions will follow. Blood has already been spilled in this conflict.
"Also, dressing up Julius Caesar as the current president is a pretty common production decision. The entire theme of the play is that assassination is bad, and these right-wing nuts would probably know that if they bothered to read a book. I'm with Amy 100% here."
Let's compare this to the action that took place last summer, when Mike Pence attended a NYC theater production and some of the actors stepped out of character to directly call out Pence from the stage, knowing that civility prevented Pence from responding in kind. That was widely praised by the Democrats and most media outlets. Only conservative media thought it was inappropriate. That's where the precedent was established. That's why the Right is losing faith in civility -- because, as in the case of Pence at the theater, the Left regards civility as a weakness to be exploited. And nearly half of the population supports them on that. Yes, in the current environment, dressing Caesar as Trump, and dressing his assassins as people representing the Democratic Party coalition, is a direct provocation. And that's what the producers intended.
Cousin Dave at June 19, 2017 7:35 AM
I was going with 'snuff porn' for Democrats. Though snuff porn, insult, provocation, PR stunt...why choose one?
These things are okay when there is not a hell of a lot of political violence happening.
A joke about infidelity is fine during a light hearted dinner party.
When a husband is brandishing a gun and things are NOT so light hearted, only a true idiot decides it's time to make a quip about hubby 'raising my kids' to 'lighten the mood'.
Unfortunately the Democrats have a lot of those idiots.
FIDO at June 19, 2017 9:20 AM
Funny how one "side" gets upset at what the other "side" is doing when both "sides" do exactly the same ridiculous, reactive and immature things. All this fighting and whining is so childish! The denial of these people who can only see their own little version of the reality that they have been told to see just astounds me!
Becky at June 23, 2017 1:59 PM
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