"Plant matter."

Siiiiiiiigh.

I see legalization causing enormous suffering, given the fractured state of family and community in the West.

But I don't see continuing regulation as anything but a dead end. At that dead end is a police state, and perhaps just as much suffering.

I concur with Ben's conclusion. Despite my personal misgivings, the fact is that the outcome of the War on Drugs is a done deal at this point -- we've lost. By continuing, we are not defeating the enemy; we are, at best, merely annoying them. Time to try something else.

My cynical self says we need to contract with American industry to crank out millions of pounds of high-purity heroin, crack, fentynol and meth, and pile the stuff up on tables at every street corner in the inner city and at the entrance to every dive bar out in the sticks, free for the taking. Let people have as much as they want, and do their damndest to themselves. Then we wash our hands of it.

Legalize drugs, remove the violence.

Ah, yes. Legalization, the magic wand, that once waved, will solve all the problems.

Ben David has a good point. Legalization will cause all manner of problems, not solving any of the existing ones. However, continued criminalization will only make matter worse. Perhaps the problem is in the manner of enforcement, and not the criminalization itself.

Our ancestors had experience with legalized drugs. Until the early 1900s, many substances that are illegal today were routinely sold over the counter. The destruction wrought by the open availability of such substances caused them to be made illegal - and not the alcohol industry eliminating competition.

Colorado, Washington, California, and other states have decriminalized or legalized recreational pot use. The federal government has seen fit to accommodate this variance from federal law. Let's see what the honest results are before we decide legalization is the cure-all.

And keep in mind, there are already legal drugs causing issues. Oxycodone, Vicodin, etc. are regulated and illegal sales are wreaking all sorts of havoc in rural America. Stories of abuses of ADHD and ADD medications are legion.

Meth can be made at home, in a soda bottle even. Why not legalize that, then, too? You don't mind if your neighbor blows up the neighborhood because he got the proportions wrong or let it cook too long, do you?

At heart, I am a libertarian and believe the government should not be able to regulate your life. However, keep in mind that the house at the far end of Libertarian Road is Anarchy. There is a reason for having governments. How far down the road do we go? How much freedom to endanger us do we give our neighbors?

"Plant matter." ~ Crid at January 11, 2018 9:58 PM

Agreed. Trite trivialization of a serious issue does nothing to facilitate a solution.

Last time I checked, alcohol was essentially processed "plant matter." As are cocaine, opium, heroin, and morphine.

People do get shot going for beer. But not near as many as when prohibition was in force. And alcoholics do steal to feed their addiction. And they pee all over the place, get into car accidents, break into random houses to sleep. But prohibition was worse over all given the inherent disrespect of the law it caused.

The only thing I disagree with Ben David is I doubt you will see much more suffering. Availability of prohibited drugs is not an issue. You can get anything you want with minimal effort. The fact that over half of Americans say they've smoked pot shows how ineffective prohibition has been. Instead you will be bringing that suffering out of hiding and publicly acknowledging it.

"However, keep in mind that the house at the far end of Libertarian Road is Anarchy. "

I disagree that anarchy is the logical end point of the libertarian philosophy. A government of some form is essential to securing rights; without it, libertarianism is meaningless. It is libertinism (particularly the libertinism of the elites) that logically leads to anarchy.

Here's an interesting political spectrum for you CD.

Nobody gets shot buying beer.

Perhaps not, but sometimes they get shot for not buying beer.

And sometimes over the price of beer.

"Let's be clear."

Okay. Tarika Wilson might still be alive, tending to {pick a number} kids by a dozen drug dealers, supported by the public - because her procession of baby-daddies weren't earning money with real jobs to buy things. It's not like she'd magically turn into June Cleaver, attuned to the needs of Wally and The Beav.

Talk about smoking. Where's the net gain for the smoker? Where's that concept that the government can't tell you what NOT to ingest? Oh, government can't do that, but it's OK to be bullied into not smoking? It's OK to harass smokers about the long-term effects of smoking tobacco but we're happy if they do other drugs?

We even pretend that a smoker is better off for a time than if she had not started, before diseases set in - even as Phillip Morris states outright that there is no such thing as a "safe cigarette".

It's crap.

Drug users burden others. That's your driver.

Schizophrenia about this issue is so widespread that people use alcohol and tobacco as happy stories about how wonderful legalization is - but here's the truth:

With a dangerous substance, the more available it is, the more users there are, the higher the death toll.

Tell me the number of fatalities acceptable to you.

-----

One more thing I've not seen answered: if government cannot tell you want NOT to ingest, how can they tell you you MUST vaccinate?

"Meth can be made at home, in a soda bottle even. Why not legalize that, then, too? You don't mind if your neighbor blows up the neighborhood because he got the proportions wrong or let it cook too long, do you?"

Prohibition doesn't stop that from happening Conan. As you point out it is so easy to do the police are unable to prevent people from doing it.

"With a dangerous substance, the more available it is, the more users there are, the higher the death toll."

http://news.gallup.com/poll/184298/four-americans-say-tried-marijuana.aspx

44% of Americans openly admit to using an illegal substance, marijuana. Prohibition failed to keep it away from them. It can't get much more available than it already is. The biggest change in Colorado when they legalized things is not the number of users. That pretty much didn't move. Instead it is how people used it. Since it was no longer illegal people were using it in public. People were driving intoxicated. People were then shocked that even if weed is legal a DWI is still a DWI. People were shocked when they lost their jobs. Just like you would for showing up to work drunk. People were also shocked that all those no smoking laws/rules that were aimed at tobacco also applied to weed.

"Schizophrenia about this issue is so widespread that people use alcohol and tobacco as happy stories about how wonderful legalization is..."

If that's schizophrenia, then I admit to being schizophrenic. (Damn, do you know how hard it is to type "schizophrenic" when you're drunk?) Why? Because the War on Drugs -- it isn't working. It isn't going to work. Like welfare, it not only doesn't solve the problem it claims to address, but it make the problem worse and has all kind of bad side effects besides.

So (1) enforcement doesn't work. (2) The therapeutic approach doesn't work. (3) Legalization, we're very wary of and there's evidence to suggest it doesn't work either. What is (4)? I have no idea.

I suspect there isn't anything that 'works' Cousin Dave. At least not for the definition of works you are looking for. You'll probably have to define your goals down to something that is possible even if it is less desirable.

As you mention I haven't really seen rehabilitation work. A few people can rehab themselves. But the vast majority of hard drug users it just doesn't happen. Oddly enough a lot of pot users do seem to self rehab. I'm not sure why.

Back on topic, prohibition doesn't work either. As Rad likes to point out they will do anything to get that next high. We just aren't able to keep them away from the stuff. And far too much of the stuff we want to use for perfectly legitimate uses. Spray paint, cold medicine, bathroom cleaners can all be used or converted to get high. There is no reason the rest of us should give up on civilization just because some of us want to poison ourselves.

And then there is legalization with all the property crimes and outright stupidity it brings. Not to mention the people killing themselves.

Number of acceptable deaths? Billions.

If the government gets to tell you what you can and can't ingest why can't they force you to eat strychnine, why can't they make hamburgers illegal?

Prohibition doesn't work.

The only thing that will work is the government giving away all hard drugs for free, you want heroin come on down to the state run drug store. Get all the drugs you want, there's a pile in a room in the back and you can stay in there until you sober up and walk out on your own or you die

That is the only thing that will work

Medical and recreational marijuana use is part of the war on guns.

Don't forget you lose your natural right to own firearms and ammunition if you use medical marijuana or recreational marijuana. Hawaii and Oregon both have demanded medical marijane users surrender their arms and ammo, and the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals upheld their actions. The 9th even said that prior use of a MM card disqualifies your firearms/ammo ownership even if one no longer uses MM or has a current MM card:

http://reason.com/blog/2016/09/01/9th-circuit-says-medical-marijuana-cardh

Recreational MJ users, at least in California, have to have their state ID scanned to purchase, and there is no guarantee of privacy with that scanned information.

Don't lose your old drug dealer's phone number.

On the plus side, at least in Oregon, some recreational pot shops give a Senior Citizen discount, so don't forget to ask.