Harried, With Children
Women complain about how hard it is being a stay-at-home mom. After getting divorced, I discovered I could clean the entire house in a few hours -- accomplishing way more than my wife ever did -- and have all afternoon to do nothing. Men work long hours to support their families, only to be told they aren't doing enough around the house. I think being a mom is important and value stay-at-home moms, but let's talk turkey about who really has the hard job, okay?
--Stay-Late-At-Work Dad
It used to be that a stay-at-home mom's work was never done -- and for good reason. Chicken for dinner? Grab your coat, grab the ax, and chase your bird around the yard, taking care not to slip and end up face down in chicken poo again. Finally catch the thing, chop its head off, and see yet again that chickens can indeed run with their heads cut off -- all the way to the next farm. Chase, catch, drain, scald, pluck, and hoist the 50-pound cast-iron kettle over the fire. And then there's today: 1. Poke plastic wrap with fork. 2. Place in microwave. 3. Push button.
Since I describe myself as "BARREN!" I sought informed opinions about the difficulty of the mom portion of the stay-at-homer's chore chart. "People in general seem convinced that stay-at-home moms get a raw deal and work much harder than breadwinner dads," said Glenn Sacks, executive director of Fathers & Families. "Having been a stay-at-home dad with two kids during the years when they need the most intensive care, I can tell you that this is nonsense." And no, he didn't just jam a bottle in the baby's mouth and turn on the ballgame. "Even though I'm a guy," Sacks said, "I actually figured out how to get my daughter in the car and get her to her doctor appointment."
Stay-at-home moms, on the other hand, aren't saying "If only I had a nice cushy job like ditch-digging..." What those I spoke with find hardest is only having the company of a 3-year-old all day, a companion whose intellectual interests are limited to answering questions like "How many fingers is this?" and "What does the cow say?" (Mommy somehow avoids throwing herself on the floor and screaming, "The cow says, 'I went to Yale for this?! I went to Yale for this?!'"). And while the parent in the workplace can step out for a smoke, the stay-at-homer can't even go to the bathroom by herself. Wouldn'tcha know it, in the 36 seconds it takes her to rush through her business, the baby will scale the counter, find a butcher knife, and see what happens when he sticks it into those holes where Mommy plugs the lamp.
Women love their children, but an increasing number seem to hate being mothers like never before. It doesn't help that many are perfectionistic in a way men generally aren't, like with a housecleaning regime right out of Joan Crawford's crazy scene in the bathroom in "Mommie Dearest." They'll beg their husband to pitch in, and when he does, screech that he's doing it "wrong." Well, ladies, if you absolutely, positively must have it your way, there's a single best person to accomplish that. Meanwhile, the housekeeping clash is only part of the problem. And modern conveniences aren't the solution; they might even be making things worse, freeing up mothers to fret over little Madison's every move -- in between spending hours rubbing her down with antibacterial wipes.
There's this idea that parents can't give their kids too much attention, but psychologist Judith Rich Harris examined a vast body of research and found the parental micromanagement approach to child development was based on myth, not data. It's in peer groups that children acquire the social skills they need to manage in society -- as they have throughout human history. This suggests it's in parents' and children's best interest to form co-op play groups of three to five families, with one parent (plus a helper) taking all the kids each weekday. Moreover, Boston College research psychologist Peter Gray found that children make great strides in social and emotional growth from "age-mixed play" -- and he doesn't mean two toddlers and their 38-year-old mother engaged in whatever edumacational exercises they're saying are sure to fast-track the kiddies to Harvard Med.
Clearly, the essential question isn't whether it's moms or dads who really have the hard job, but why anyone would go into parenting without fully investigating whether they've got the partner and the financial and emotional wherewithal to raise another human being. As for those who don't have what it takes, childhood tragedies can be averted with helpful tools like the childproof cap -- the one that comes in a little plastic packet labeled Durex or Trojan.
I seem to remember there was a study a few years back which claimed to show that the services a stay-at-home mom provides, if purchased on the open market, would cost something over $100K a year. I don't remember the details, or know if the report still exists online somewhere. The idea seems absurd on its face, but does anyone know enough about this to comment?
And no, I don't think the study included sexual services.
Rex Little at June 2, 2009 8:41 PM
would cost something over $100K a year
That number is from Salary.com. The value estimated by the BER and similar econometrics bodies is about a fifth, to a quarter, of that amount. Basically the replacement cost of a mother isn't much because comparable services are inexpensive.
Now mothers obviously provide a value well beyond the substitution costs for their services - but if we're going to play the game of trying to attach a market value to these, that's what you get.
J.Stevens at June 2, 2009 9:24 PM
To me, this seems like a silly debate, because how do you quantify which job is easier? You might as well ask whether it's harder to be an accountant or an architect, a doctor or a writer. Too many variables to draw a satisfactory generalization, including a person's aptitude and inclination for the job. The first thing that came to mind when I read this is that maybe the LW is just really good at being a stay-at-home parent. It takes a certain set of skills to raise kids and manage a household, and not everyone is cut out for the job.
Plus you also have to take into account factors like the number of kids, ages of the kids, whether they have disabilities/special needs/behavioral issues, whether you can afford housecleaning and a nanny/babysitter, how much support you get from family, friends, and your spouse, etc. Same goes for examining the job of the working spouse: is their job self-selected, enjoyable, fulfilling, low-stress, good boss/coworkers, good work environment versus a boring, miserable, underpaying job that they hate? Again, too many factors to make sweeping generalizations about who's got it easier.
Shannon at June 2, 2009 9:41 PM
This is so well written; it is so true; the final sentence is so appropriately indecorous with a perfect little pause before the final noun and relative clause. Nice.
I think this captures the essence of the thing.
I've long noticed a "have cake and eat it too" kind of expectation among women. It's the desire for logical contradictories to both be true. They can't be, so it must be a man's fault.
She wants a stable provider man who's a rakish bad boy. She wants a strong man who does what he's told. She wants a sensitive guy with a man-of-action temperament. She wants special treatment and equality. She wants chivalry and feminism.
She wants a child, but she doesn't want to be a mommy.
I mean, how does a woman get that kind of categorical nonsense into her head? How can it persist so stubbornly?
Jeff at June 3, 2009 12:05 AM
As with anything, being the stay-at-home parent is as hard as you make it. If you wash your baseboards three times a day while hovering continuously over your children, you will be exhausted.
Too many women seem to fall into this trap. Does your kitchen floor really have to be clean enough to eat off of? Is it really so awful that the kids are playing in the dirt? I saw this with one of my aunts: when one of her kids sat down to play on the floor, she ran over and picked her up, crying "you might get a germ!".
My grandmother had a sign in her home: "clean enough to be healthy, dirty enough to be happy".
bradley13 at June 3, 2009 12:45 AM
It's interesting and all, but I was really looking forward to the Wednesday morning advice problem!
NicoleK at June 3, 2009 2:06 AM
@Shannon, 9:41 PM, "To me, this seems like a silly debate, because how do you quantify which job is easier?"
I certainly agree with Shannon on that one. What bothered me a little about the letter, edited though it is, was the slightly self-pitying tone. To me, "let's talk turkey about who really has the hard job" sounds a little like, "Well, I suffer more than you, so there!"
old rpm daddy at June 3, 2009 4:57 AM
'I seem to remember there was a study a few years back which claimed to show that the services a stay-at-home mom provides, if purchased on the open market, would cost something over $100K a year.'
When I read the explanation of that figure (it surfaces every Mother's Day it seems) it appeared that they simply added up a bunch of salaries...cook, chauffer, counselor, etc. No housewife does each of those jobs all the time, 40 hours a week each. It seemed like a really illogical way to come up with the figure.
crella at June 3, 2009 5:21 AM
There are physical and emotional constraints in all jobs. Like rpm daddy, I agree with Shannon. You can talk all day long about the utopia where parents are 100% knowledgeable in all aspects of parenting and are completely and totally ready for the task before adding to the gene pool, but it ain't gonna happen ever. I know some of you can't stand to hear this, but you really don't understand the reality of parenting until you are doing it. And having adopted a child, I would go so far as to say until you have your own biological child. The best parents I know have had some bad days on the job. Reality happens.
kg at June 3, 2009 5:34 AM
I guess the only way you can tell the value of a person in any job is to observe what happens in their "work setting" when they're absent for any period of time.
There's a joke email about a man who comes home from work to find absolute devastation in his home; the contrast from the clean and orderly norm is shocking. His first concern is that his home has been robbed, ransacked, and/or vandalized. After confirming that his kids are safe (still in PJ's, in the backyard, filthy, eating an entire box of cereal from a mixing bowl at 5:30 pm) he finds his wife reclining in bed, still in her PJs as well, reading from a stack of books and magazines, one hand in a box of bon bons. He incredulously demands "what's going on?" She replies, "Well you always ask what exactly it is that I do with my day? Today I didn't do it."
Today my friend is going in for surgery to remove a 5cm ovarian tumor. There are several women lined up to run her household for the next two weeks, no questions asked, no repayment EVER considered, no recognition required.... but hire someone to render the same basic services and you'll pay quite a bit. Preparing 3 squares a day (Seattle Sutton charges $165/person/week), laundry for the family (varies, approx $2/lb standard service by laundry service), housecleaning($125ish for just a weekly cleaning, no daily wipe ups), administrative (varies), and basic child care (as the kids are now out of school, varies by age and location).
This is a double-edged sword. Stay at home to raise your kids and you're regarded with contempt by people who think your efforts aren't really "work". Go back to work after having kids and you're a pariah for not staying at home with your kids. Looks like alot of people out there are still pissed off at their mommies and generalizing.
juliana at June 3, 2009 5:55 AM
'I seem to remember there was a study a few years back which claimed to show that the services a stay-at-home mom provides, if purchased on the open market, would cost something over $100K a year.'
When I read the explanation of that figure (it surfaces every Mother's Day it seems) it appeared that they simply added up a bunch of salaries...cook, chauffer, counselor, etc. No housewife does each of those jobs all the time, 40 hours a week each. It seemed like a really illogical way to come up with the figure.
Posted by: crella at June 3, 2009 5:21 AM
-----------
crella is exactly right. Many nannies do these jobs for way less than $100K.
This is just more feminist egocentism of-I'm so oppressed and look how important I am.
Imagine that! A woman complaining! Who wudda thunk?
Most American women are no prizes.
They have the highest standard of living, the most opportunities,preferential treatment in jobs, education, medicine, legal, and military areas to mention a few.
And what do "most" of these American women do? They bitch,instead of being appreciative.
Too much believing they are princesses that deserve special treatment. Too much Desperate housewives and Sex in the City mentality.
It would be nice if American Women knew how really good they have it.
David M. at June 3, 2009 6:42 AM
"clean enough to be healthy, dirty enough to be happy".
This says it all. Not to mention that now that my girls are older and able to help with the housework, things around here are a lot easier to take care of than when they were little.
After getting divorced, I discovered I could clean the entire house in a few hours -- accomplishing way more than my wife ever did -- and have all afternoon to do nothing.
Does he have small children living with him? Because I doubt that he does, based on this one comment. When my girls and I get going on a Saturday morning, we're done by maybe 1:30, including laundry. Then we go out to lunch; followed by the mall (in inclement weather), or the beach. Or they go out with their friends, and BF and I do stuff around the yard. My roses are going crazy this year! o.O
Flynne at June 3, 2009 6:43 AM
Fixed that for ya. Not that I'm disagreeing, but the general case is also true.
And if your kid is over 5 and can't do basic stuff around the house (like feed the dog, wipe up a spill) you've missed something.
brian at June 3, 2009 6:47 AM
This is a double-edged sword. Stay at home to raise your kids and you're regarded with contempt by people who think your efforts aren't really "work". Go back to work after having kids and you're a pariah for not staying at home with your kids.
You nailed it. I think women are "supposed" to work all day and wish they were home, then go home to their kids and fret about work.
There's also the letter writer's assertion that men work long hours. Maybe. Many jobs are brutal work, but hell, I have a job that lets me pop over to blogs throughout the day and post comments, so maybe not.
MonicaP at June 3, 2009 6:54 AM
juliana, I don't think it's pissed off at mommy so much as it is pissed off at gender feminism. Let's get to the gist of what the LW is hinting at: the claim that, in a family with a working dad and a stay-at-home mom, the dad should be expected to work 8 hours a day (or more) to support his family, and then come home at the end of the day and do half of the housework *and* half of the parenting *and* all of the traditionally male jobs of home maintenance. Meanwhile, the stay-at-home wife does half of the houswork and half of the parenting and... um... er... And add to that the the wife may insist on being the home gatekeeper -- the husband may enter if and only if he agrees to all of the wife's rules about how all of these tasks should be done -- and, yeah, the stay-at-home wife job starts to look like a pretty sweet deal.
And it's especially egregious in the case where all of the children are school age (or, worse yet, when there are no children). Wife maybe gets a part-time job, and whatever income she earns is hers to spend as she pleases, while husband's income is expected to pay all of the bills. Or, she takes up some hobby or other activity that satisfies her and takes up a considerable portion of her time during the day. She has the satisfaction of being able to do what she wants, when she wants to (at least during the school day), while hubby has to keep his nose to the grindstone to support the family.
Now, having said all that: There are huge differences depending on the specifics. There are women like I described above; I know this from personal experience. There are also women who have toddlers who must be watched 24/7 (or else put into daycare, at huge expense, which requires both spouses to work full time). There are women who homeschool their children. There are women caring for special-needs children, and let's not forget that there are some caring for elderly parents too. You can make a reasonable argument that those are full-time jobs, and there are lots of women who do them and work too because they have no other choice. But note that that also goes for men. My stepson is caring for a special-needs child and working full time, without any help other than what my wife and I can provide.
Today's culture has encouraged a style of parenting and housekeeping that is both far more difficult than it needs to be, and at the same time not particularly effective. I won't make an argument against caring for a pre-school-age child being a full-time job. Once they get to school age, things change, though. I've observed and talked to women who have school-age children, and it seems like an awful lot of what they do is busywork -- obsessively cleaning and rearranging things that have just been cleaned, and stage-managing every non-school minute of their children's lives. I get a laugh out of families who insist that they have to live within a few blocks of school, but then the children are never allowed to walk -- a parent, usually the mother, drives them every day. I won't say gender feminism invented this, but it sure as heck encourages it.
Cousin Dave at June 3, 2009 6:54 AM
not enough time to comment here right now, but I have a lot to say on this.
One quick thing-I am life insured for over half a mil and I don't work. Why? Because there is no way DH could earn enough to hire people to replace me. Daycare or nanny? $20k a year, roughly, minimum. Housekeeping once a week? $5200 a year ($100 a week, pretty standard around here) Thats over half his take-home already. Not to mention the finances including tax preparation, the time he'd have to take off for drs appts etc.
momof4 at June 3, 2009 7:14 AM
You know, discussions about this issue always really bug me. It is not a societal problem; it is an individual family problem! Each family is different, and they should divide up the work in the way that works best for them. If you have a problem with the division of labor in your family, this is a problem between you and your spouse, not a complaint about the way of the world. If you married a man who thinks that women should do all the housework, well, maybe you should have thought about that when you got married. This fellow is already divorced, so there is no division of labor issue at all in his family to worry about.
Lyssa, Lovely Redhead at June 3, 2009 7:29 AM
The main question as to how has it worse depends on what job and what kids. If you have a horrible job and the kids are older then being a stay at home louse, um I mean spouse is much easier. There are a few exceptions depending on House size and meal plans, if it's a 10,000 sqrft house and your a professions chef for instance. If your family feels that babies are best made in bulk then work would be generally easier. Most kids can be plopped down in front of barney for an hour where as giving your boss a barney DVD would not work quite so well. I'm not recommending you leave them there all day but for an hour or two while you can see them is perfectly safe. Also as your rise up the ranks your job tends to get harder and more demanding. As a parent unless the kids is disabled your job will get easier otherwise you are incompetent.
The idea that a stay at home parents job is always hell is true in so far as you made it so, with the exception of special needs and then not always, the parent can exacerbate the behavior resulting from a disability. If your 5 year old needs the same care as a 2 year old and they are not special needs you screwed the pooch as a parent.
vlad at June 3, 2009 7:35 AM
If your 5 year old needs the same care as a 2 year old and they are not special needs you screwed the pooch as a parent.
Just one quibble, Vlad. A 5-year-old shouldn't need the same care as a 2-year-old, but it may very well be the same amount of work. They still need help with daily activites, but they're more active and have more social needs, like help with school work.
MonicaP at June 3, 2009 7:39 AM
That's true. Motherhood and all that goes with it is honored. Pretty much always has been. Then Friedan wrote The Feminine Mystique.
That's when this sanctimonious bullshit started. To satisfy the growing female sanctimony market, a publishing industry arose to to tell women how awful is the Housewife Gulag. Ever since, feminism has advocated the "you can have it all" lifestyle. Part of having it all is freedom from logic and the principle of non-contradiction in the real world.
I ask again.
Jeff at June 3, 2009 8:03 AM
Momof4- Congrats on your newest addition. Have you considered upping your insurance? We've upped mine after each child. Our insurer asked why we wanted so much for me. I told him I didn't want hubby to be so desperate for help with the kids that he'd marry the first woman stupider than me to sign on for this gig.
He didn't see the self-effacing humor in it, but it happens. My grandmother was widowed when she was 52 and the youngest of her 4 kids was 16. Grandma was almost done raising kids, and when a widower approached her who still had 4 younger kids at home, she ran like hell in the opposite direction. She said she knew what he wanted her for, and it wasn't her hot body.
juliana at June 3, 2009 8:44 AM
Both the man at work and the stay at home mom see the good parts of the other's situation.
She envies his lunch with clients or coworkers and he envies her freedom from a tyrannical boss.
She doesn't feel the pressure he is under to get a project finished today, even though the boss doesn't give him the required info until 3pm and he doesn't know what it is like to be totally responsible for the kid(s) and have no time for yourself.
There is also the difference in how much housework each feels is necessary.
I used to clean the bathroom when it needed it, but my wife cleans it every weekend and does a touch up once or twice a week.
I watched her wash the front of the cupboards last weekend and I'll have to try to notice if she does it every week. I think I did that when I moved into my apartment and again when I moved out.
Steamer at June 3, 2009 8:50 AM
I'll be a stay-at-home mom starting in November, but I don't anticipate it being that difficult. That's just me, though, and I realize that my situation is unique. I'll have some help, and I realize that not everyone does.
My husbands job(s) are much harder than my current one, and will still be once the baby comes. He'll be a good father, but I don't expect him to be much help around the house or with the baby. Sure, he'll love it and play with it and change a diaper every once in a while, but I don't know how much more he'll do. He's not going to clean up after it; he doesn't clean up after himself. He doesn't even remember to feed the dogs.
Right now, I'm really looking forward to this whole SAHM thing. We do have a weekly cleaning lady, and a lawn guy, and a service that picks up the dog poop in the back yard... and in all likelihood I'll get a "mother's helper" a few days a week so I can run errands/take a nice long shower and flat-iron my hair/work out, etc. So, basically, I just have to do a little light cleaning, make sure the bills are paid, cook dinner, and play with the baby. I have two friends that are also pregant right now, and I know at least one will also be home full-time, so I'll have someone to hang out with.
I realize that some might see me a being spoiled, but, so? We waited to have a child until we could afford both the baby AND the lifestyle we want. I love my husband, he loves me, and we make each other happy. I don't think I'll end up being a harpy bitch-shrew.
Even if we didn't have the extra help, though, I have to say I could handle it. Neither us is a neat-freak, and I've kept a house clean on my own before. We also don't plan on having more than two kids. Plenty of women with kids work full-time AND manage a house. More power to them; I think that's truley admirable.
ahw at June 3, 2009 8:58 AM
@Momof4: "Because there is no way DH could earn enough to hire people to replace me."
Momof4, I don't think anyone is trying to devalue what you, as a stay-at-home mom, do to maintain your home and family. I agree with the commenters who maintain that parents can make themselves crazy by expecting too much of others or trying to do too much themselves. But nobody here really knows how your home is run, so I'd be disinclined to take it personally.
As for the letter writer, I'll say it again. I don't even know why he's bringing the subject up. Cleaned your house in a few hours? Good for you! Now be quiet and dust something.
By the way, I couldn't replace my wife no matter how much insurance I had on her.
old rpm daddy at June 3, 2009 9:08 AM
Lyssa, Lovely Redhead wrote: "You know, discussions about this issue always really bug me. It is not a societal problem; it is an individual family problem! Each family is different, and they should divide up the work in the way that works best for them."
This is EXACTLY what was floating around in my head--and you said it better than I could have.
My mom was a SAHM. My dad worked a demanding job that required 12-hour days and most weekends. My mom was frustrated that my dad would come home and "crassly" expect dinner to be ready without so much as a "hello" to her. My dad was frustrated that my mom got to spend more time with my sister and I and actually "enjoy" the benefits of his salary. As a result, they both felt underappreciated and, now that my sister and I are grown up, they regard each other with silent resentment. It had NOTHING to do with one person having a harder job than the other. It had to do with the fact that neither appreciated what the other did every day.
We can debate all day about who had the hardest job, but, really, it's about assessing the needs of each indivdual family and how well the parents make sure those needs are met.
sofar at June 3, 2009 9:10 AM
"She wants a stable provider man who's a rakish bad boy. She wants a strong man who does what he's told. She wants a sensitive guy with a man-of-action temperament. She wants special treatment and equality. She wants chivalry and feminism.
She wants a child, but she doesn't want to be a mommy.
I mean, how does a woman get that kind of categorical nonsense into her head? How can it persist so stubbornly?"
Now Jeff, I get your point...but let's face it: Men do the same thing. They want a good girl that's a porn star in the bedroom. They want a woman to take care of housework, cleaning and cooking then complain we're not as fun as we used to be. They want a classy girl that can hang with the boys. They want a girly girl that likes to get her hands dirty. I could go on and on.
Personally....yeah....I want a stable man that still has an edge. I want a strong man that listens to me. I want a man that is sensitive to my needs, but still knows when to tell me I'm being a bitch (even though I know when I am). I have that man. They do exist. I don't exactly consider myself a feminist, because I suppose if I do that means I have to mow the lawn and kill my own spiders. We trade off. He's does the "man stuff" and I do all the laundry, write out all the bills and do about half of the cooking and cleaning. That said, we don't have any kids yet so I really don't know how the responsibilities would shift. I don't think either of us will be able to afford to stay home, so we'll probably keep on splitting things 50/50.
It's not "categorical nonsense" to expect our men to be flexible or show a range of emotions. We're "stubborn" about it because everyone deserves to be happy and ho one should settle for less than everything they are looking for in a mate. If the women you are dating wants those things out of a man and you can't provide them, start looking elsewhere. Obviously, those women are too “stubborn” for you anyway.
One last point: Even if you feel like you're working harder going to work every day than your spouse that stays home, it would still be a nice gesture to show them you appreciate them. Maybe pick up dinner on the way home so they don't have to cook? Help with the house work even if you don't have to? Hire a cleaning crew one week to give them a rest? Hell, you could even stop and get them their favorite candy bar. Just do something, ANYTHING, to show your mate you appreciate what they do. I don't think most of these moms are looking for a salary and I'm sure most of them would rather not even have this debate, but anyone is bound to get defensive when they're made to feel like their job isn't important. Let's not forget that aside from housework and cooking, your spouse is at home trying to make sure your child grows up to be the best person they can be...and that is priceless.
Kim at June 3, 2009 9:37 AM
Some people are cut out to be SAHMs. I am not, but I didn't find that out until I was one. Not a day goes by that I don't think about ending my life (yes I am under treatment for this, and I don't ever intend to carry through with suicide. I'm just letting you all know that compared to my everyday life, death begins to look like a really long nap).
But I get on with it, with the business of raising my child (with ASD) to the best of my ability, to do his best and to be the best person he can be. I suck it up and DO IT, because that is the choice I made, and I do it with a GOOD HEART and a GOOD WILL and with a SMILE on my face and always a hug for my boy no matter how badly I feel myself. It is a horrible, thankless task beset with judgement from Society At Large for what a stay-at-home-mother should be able to accomplish. Not a day goes by that I don't fail to live up to what society expects of me. But yet I carry on doing it, to my utter best.
The progressive erosion of self you get as a SAHM is bad enough. Then reading this plus comments has really pushed me over the edge. If someone else would have such an easier time doing my job, I fucking wish they would.
m at June 3, 2009 9:40 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/06/harried-with-ch.html#comment-1651748">comment from mSome people are cut out to be SAHMs. I am not, but I didn't find that out until I was one.
Sorry to hear what you're going through, m, but I admire you for doing your best to rise to the occasion.
I frequently tell people considering having kids, or who say they are, to move in with a family with them for a week to be sure they're up for it. I'm certainly not. But, I figured that out before ever having one. It's a serious thing, having kids, and if you're self-involved, impatient, and totally career-driven, like me, the thing to do is be friends with a few children, and add meaningfully to their lives, if you're even into it to that extent. If you're not, you're not.
Amy Alkon at June 3, 2009 10:31 AM
The progressive erosion of self you get as a SAHM is bad enough.
Why do you suppose this is, m? Is it something inherent about the life of a SAHM, or is it a result of the tendency toward isolation? Or is it something else?
MonicaP at June 3, 2009 10:38 AM
The usual rhetorical flubbery. The psychological fallacy is insinuated. It'll soon be fully inserted.
A range of emotions is quite different from a collection of logically inconsistent desires. But nice try at reframing. This sentiment is so Oprah-esque.
No. Men want women who want to have sex with them and no one else. Some men want a housewife that doesn't get crabby about it. Men want a woman who doesn't upset their dominance games when hanging around with the boys.
It's a matter of degree, but by and large men don't have this epistemological vice. They have lots of other vices, but not this one to this degree.
I really think your are failing to note an important difference, one that makes a lot of women unhappy.
Jeff at June 3, 2009 10:42 AM
"Let's get to the gist of what the LW is hinting at: the claim that, in a family with a working dad and a stay-at-home mom, the dad should be expected to work 8 hours a day (or more) to support his family, and then come home at the end of the day and do half of the housework *and* half of the parenting..."
What's wrong with that? Dad works 8 hours at the office, mom works 8 hours taking care of the kids, both parents split the childcare/housekeeping requirements when they're both home.
To clarify, dad shouldn't walk in and be greeted with a days worth of dirty laundry and unwashed dishes. But there's no reason why he can't pull his weight on cleaning up after dinner, putting the kids to bed, etc. If bringing home the bacon exempted parents from any further childcare responsibilities, then kids with two working parents would be screwed, wouldn't they? My parents both worked full-time jobs and they both came home and fixed dinner, drove us to practices, helped us with homework, etc. That's what it means to be a responsible parent and part of a family.
Shannon at June 3, 2009 11:36 AM
Okay... I am a SAHM and I would never claim that my job is harder than my husband's, but where some of you have come up with this idea that there is just tons of time for me to work on my own personal enrichment I have no clue. The school day is not as long as you all seem to think it is and if you have any set activities like going to the gym, it gets even shorter. I know, see look she goes to the gym... well I do that b/c as Amy loves to point out fat mommies are often unhappy, divorced mommies. After that, I spend quite a bit of time volunteering at the public school that my child attends. Last week, I spent three days working from 9 a.m. to 2 p.m. helping the librarian with her annual book inventory... I have also taught art classes b/c our district doesn't pay for those so if we want it our moms provide it (we create it and teach it)... and that is just start of what I do... I am part of a large network of women who work hard to provide the enrichment programs that fill in where the school budget falls short. I can assure you, that none of the women I know are sitting home on their asses waiting for their husbands to come home and do dishes...
Furthermore, it doesn't end with the school day. If I want my child in VBS this summer, somebody has to volunteer to organize, run and teach it... Again, it is the SAHM that makes that possible. It is also the same for after school athletic activities... SAHM's usually do the planning and the fundraising for the teams.
Perhaps none of you see this b/c you are off being "productive" at work... unlike me, the lazy bitch who showed up to teach art to your child's class (even though my kid isn't even in that class) b/c the working moms didn't think it was important enough to take the time off to teach it themselves... but they still want their kids to have it...and all of the other benefits my hours of volunteering provide...
I really resent the pervasive attitude here that if you are a SAHM you are just some lazy whore who does nothing but spend your husband's money and bitch all day. I contribute heavily to both my family's enrichment and to my larger community as a whole and I refuse to apologize for it. And let me tell you this, my husband likes it this way. He gets to come home on Friday night to a clean house and a relaxed weekend schedule. He does "cook" on the weekends b/c he realizes that I have spent the week jumping through hoops for other people and he appreciates what I do. See, we have what is called a mature, ADULT relationship and not some tit for tat score card.
sheepmommy at June 3, 2009 11:48 AM
Thanks, Amy, that means a lot.
Monica, I can only speak from my own experience but I would say for me it is because of the constant demands of parenthood. I do work from home in addition to being a mom, but I have to do it after my boy goes to bed because I personally cannot stand being interrupted every five minutes during the times I'm trying to work. It's better now that he's in school, but summers are HELL, and I find myself exhausted all the time. Also, having a kid who is developmentally behind makes a huge difference. They tend to be clingier and the anxiety phases last longer. And they can't communicate their needs as effectively.
m at June 3, 2009 12:26 PM
Okie dokie Jeff. Men are perfect creatures and all women are irrational and evil. Next time, just state your OPINION as FACT in the first place. Why phrase it in a question...then repost said question if you already have all the answers? Seriously, all you were missing was a paragraph picking apart my typos.
You are living in a fantasy world, dude....but apparently in that world you know everything there is to know and you're the smartest guy around...so congrats on that.
Kim at June 3, 2009 12:32 PM
We are all somewhat trapped by anecdotal experience when thinking about this stuff, since real data is pretty much impossible to collect and agree upon.
As for me, I have worked in freakishly demanding professional settings for years at a time. I have also spent a fair amount of time at home with two sub-6 year old kids when I was (blessedly...sigh) between freakishly demanding jobs.
The time home with the kids was--by far--easier and more rewarding. As the kids aged, it would only have gotten easier. By the time they are four, kids are downright easy to deal with, and multiple kids above that age actually make the job easier still, since they entertain (and torture) each other.
Yeah, taking care of an infant and a two year old really sucks. It was still far easier than dealing with crazy bosses, absurd deadlines, delusional cost constraints, and demands for results that simply could not be obtained. The stress felt when the kid is crying for the third straight hour is real stress. The glum sense that the house is out of control and dirty is there and it is real. Still, those stresses are easily managed relative to the workplace stresses discussed above.
And once kids are in school, any SAHP who claims a difficult "work" life is full of shit and deserves to be scorned, not for staying home, but for telling working people that they have a difficult work life. I maintain a house where I do most housework and work full time. It is not hard for people with their act together. Just don't watch TV except the occasional Office episode, and you will be stunned how much life you have. Add a spouse to the mix who does even 25% of the work, and things get fairly easy, actually.
Spartee at June 3, 2009 1:09 PM
sheepmommy, good for you. You have clearly filled your time with productive activities. But do recognize that you are doing a lot of things that you don't *have* to do, in the sense that if you didn't do them, there would be no dire direct consequences to you. Yes, if you didn't teach the art class, the kids in that school would be worse off, so good for you for doing it. But, as you say, your own kid isn't in it, so if you decided to stay home and watch Oprah instead, it would not hurt you or your child at all. Whereas, if your husband decided that he's tired of working so hard and quit his job to take a low-paying, part-time job, there would be severe and direct consequences to him.
Please don't try to deny that the lazy SAHM exists. I know because I was (briefly) married to one -- in fact, it was worse because she was a SAHW; we had no kids. She expected to only have to work when she wanted to, which wasn't often. And when she did work, she expected that 100% of the money she made was hers, to spend as she pleased. She never contributed a dime towards the bills. In fact, she declared herself exempt from withholding at work, so I had to pay the taxes on her income. She was a pretty good house cleaner, but I know good and darn well that it didn't take her more than an hour a day or so, since it was only the two of us in a small apartment. She cooked while were were dating, but that pretty much ended once we got married.
The other thing that happened after we got married was that she made herself the gatekeeper for the home. Decor was per her taste; she had veto power over anything I wanted to bring in or anything that I might like. And yes, she did demand that I do half of the household chores, and that I always do it her way. We had an enormous argument -- which led indirectly to our breakup -- over how to load the diswasher. I loaded the dishwasher one evening and started it. She came in, stopped the diswasher in the middle of the cycle, opened it up, took all of the silverware out and put it back in. Why? Because she absolutely insisted that the silverware had to be put in the basket with the business end up, and I was an utter moron for doing it the other way. Why? I never got that answer from her, other than that was the way her mother did it. I always thought it would be better to have the dirty end down near the spray, plus I don't like getting stabbed by the steak knives.
But, as I said in my previous post, it's a devil-in-the-details thing. Is a woman who stays home pulling her weight in the relationship? Well, that depends on a lot of things. It's quite possible that she's a lazy bum watching TV all day. It's equally possible that she's pulling more than her weight with small/disabled children, working out of the house, doing all of the chores, etc. Until you ask all of the detail questions, you don't know.
The only point I was trying to make is the gender feminism has it as a fundemental tenant that the husband must do at least half of all of the household work *in all cases*, while still being the breadwinner and fulfilling all of the traditional responsibilities of the male role, regardless of the details of the relationship. You'll notice that if you take the two traditional roles and reverse them, the gender feminists will be very contemptuous of the house-husband. Because, you see, he's not allowing himself to be confined to his traditional role. Feminism started out as trying to liberate everyone from traditional gender roles. But at some point, they decided that they only wanted that freedom for half of the population.
Cousin Dave at June 3, 2009 1:26 PM
Cousin Dave- I am really sorry that your marriage didn't work out and that she was so obviously a rotten apple... nobody deserves to be used for a paycheck... I guess what bothers me is the implication that, that is what "most" SAHM do... that is a pretty broad brush to paint us with...I don't treat my husband the way you were treated... Now, when my dd was little, yes he came home at night and relieved me... I can't tell you what it is like to up all night and then be on-call all day with a small child... it can make you crazy... but this worked to his advantage in the long run... she is now nine and loves him totally and has a great relationship with him... he isn't some distant figure that comes home to eat and plop down in front of the TV and mumble at us... he is a valued and engaged member of the family... I think too many men don't realize that if they don't help with the kids early on (which is really the only way to interact with them when they are young), they will miss out on this relationship later...
No, I don't have to teach art or fill in for classes where there is no parent volunteer, but we (the other ladies I work with and I)have made a decision that no child will miss out b/c there are no parents willing or able to help with the classroom... each kid deserves the same opportunities and we strive to make that happen... On the other thread related to this topic, it seems as if there are some who are implying that this unnecessarily complicates my life b/c it doesn't affect me or my kid, (I guess they are saying that we only do busy work) but that is not the point... if it was your kid sitting in that class you would be glad that someone was willing to step up and help out when you can't.
Finally, for the record, I am not a helicopter parent... I subscribe to the Rosemond theory of parenting in which less is more... the stuff I do is aimed at helping all the kids, not just mine. She has chores, is responsible for getting her own homework done, and taking the consequences of any failures...
sheepmommy at June 3, 2009 3:21 PM
Jeff,
You've posted twice about the "categorical nonsense" in women's heads. My advice to you is to stay the hell away from women, for your sake and theirs. You sound awful.
CT at June 3, 2009 7:54 PM
Another way to look at it CT is women after being asked the same question twice still cant seem to answer his reasonable question, although Kim came fairly close
lujlp at June 3, 2009 8:34 PM
"Because there is no way DH could earn enough to hire people to replace me."
Here in South Africa things like housekeeping and daycare are cheap, I could easily more than afford to 'replace' the 'ordinary labor' services of my wife if I had one - do you really pay $100 for a once-a-week housecleaning service? That's shocking; we would usually get that for under $14, and that includes laundry, ironing, vacuuming, cleaning windows, everything. Similar story with gardening services, and even full-time nannies are inexpensive, as is prepared food.
What you *can't* easily replace though is the proper "motherly" stuff - actually caring for kids, and making a *home*.
"Preparing 3 squares a day"
Three square meals a day, wtf? My mom raised four of us and we did just fine with quick 'n easy breakfast cereal in the morning, simple cheese on bread sandwiches for lunch, one cooked meal in the evening, and fruit for inbetween - and we all learned to take turns cooking the meals each night as soon as we were old enough. Personally if you're preparing 3 square meals a day for your children, I think you have far too much time on your hands - I wouldn't want to marry someone who was that obsessed with overdoing the mother thing.
We all learned to share in the various duties of running a home. And we were expected to tidy up after ourselves and keep the house clean and put our own toys away, we got in trouble if we didn't.
And we were expected to do our own homework! That's what it's for! The idea of my parents helping me with my homework actually makes me laugh, they would've sent me away and told me it's my homework not theirs (in fact that's what they did) ... only time I recall my dad helping was when I was older and occasionally got stuck on a complex math problem here and there.
DavidJ at June 4, 2009 1:21 AM
Just to be clear, I'm not saying either my mom or dad were lazy, in case it comes across that way - on the contrary, they both worked really hard to raise and educate and provide for us under difficult circumstances, and achieved impressive things. And I think it's a good thing they had me do my own homework, learn to cook, learn to look after myself etc. - all good values - I think it's wrong to teach a child that 'mommy will do everything for them' - so if I do decide to marry, I'll likely look for similar values.
(Obviously it's different with young babies too, as they are useless for the first few years.)
DavidJ at June 4, 2009 1:31 AM
"What's wrong with that? Dad works 8 hours at the office, mom works 8 hours taking care of the kids, both parents split the childcare/housekeeping requirements when they're both home."
If it takes 8 hours a day five days a week before you've even touched the housework, "you're doing it wrong". Unless you've got like 8 infants or something.
DavidJ at June 4, 2009 1:34 AM
Jeff sounds like he should be ordering a bride from a poor area in Russia. Maybe she will be sufficiently grateful (to his tastes) for the opportunity to wash his dirty underwear. Maybe her lack of independence and other options would finally free him of those feelings of inferiority he seems to suffer from with Western women.
Nony at June 4, 2009 2:28 AM
It would be nice if Americans knew how really good they have it.
Fixed that for ya. Not that I'm disagreeing, but the general case is also true.
-------------------
Actually, I could have made my point a little more clear.
While women get preferential treatment in almost all areas of life, most (not all) seem to be unappreciative.
They have a national organization (NOW) that keeps telling this gender how oppressed they are, at the same time this gender receives more preferential treatment in almost every area of life than the group they claim is oppressing them!
And yes most Americans should be appreciative, but that is a different point than I was making.
Much like the race card women play the opressed or gender card. It's pure BS.
David M. at June 4, 2009 6:11 AM
"Men do the same thing. They want a good girl that's a porn star in the bedroom. They want a woman to take care of housework, cleaning and cooking then complain we're not as fun as we used to be. They want a classy girl that can hang with the boys. They want a girly girl that likes to get her hands dirty. I could go on and on."
No man I have ever known has ever confided anything like that to me.
"We're "stubborn" about it because everyone deserves to be happy and [no] one should settle for less than *EVERYTHING* they are looking for in a mate."
Everything?!
Spartee at June 4, 2009 7:07 AM
Yes, Spartee...everything.
Kim at June 4, 2009 7:17 AM
"Yes, Spartee...everything."
Sounds like soulmate talk to me. Got a friend who is still looking for hers and at this rate will be until the cows come home. As for the comment that Men are like women who want a lady in the streets,a freak in the sheets, and looks like a model, I had a friend call me on that about 8 years ago. Quite sobering as I was complaining about the whole "Nice guy/Bad Boy" complex myself and he told me I was doing the exact same thing by wanting a drop dead gorgeous woman with the thong over her pants and the cropped top who tanned and looked like an actress but wanted a 'nice guy'.
When I speak to my compadres at work, I am surprised at the amount of women who they think are okay or average. I agree with the other poster, us guys too want our cakes and to eat them too on occasion.
Amax at June 4, 2009 7:44 AM
Kim,
No one can be "everything" to another person. When disappointment comes--and it will in any long term relationship--the danger is the person expecting "everything" will fail to admit that the expectation is the problem, not the eventual disappointment.
In fact, it seems almost cruel to expect a mate to be everything you could want in a mate; no one could achieve that standard.
Spartee at June 4, 2009 8:50 AM
It's not logical for a man to marry a woman who isn't enthusiastic about having sex with him as soon as possible, and then after the marriage, expect her to enthusiastically want frequent sex with him. What logical reason would there be for her to change her behaviour with respect to a basic drive, which either exists within her, or doesn't? (I'm trying to channel Mr. Spock here, for Jeff's benefit).
Men have conflicting expectations, and so do women. I guess we're just not very logical.
Chrissy at June 4, 2009 9:10 AM
"If it takes 8 hours a day five days a week before you've even touched the housework, "you're doing it wrong". Unless you've got like 8 infants or something."
Agreed, but that wasn't my point. I was referring to the mutual division of responsibilities that naturally occur after the working spouse returns: feeding the kids dinner, cleaning up after dinner, driving to practices, making sure they do their homework, bathtime, putting kids to bed, etc. Not, "welcome home honey; I left you your half of the laundry and by the way, can you wash the breakfast dishes?"
Shannon at June 4, 2009 9:40 AM
"Men do the same thing. They want a good girl that's a porn star in the bedroom. They want a woman to take care of housework, cleaning and cooking then complain we're not as fun as we used to be. They want a classy girl that can hang with the boys. They want a girly girl that likes to get her hands dirty. I could go on and on."
-------------------
These things could be attributed to most immature guys in there 20's. I would never recommend a woman to marry a guy that isn't at least 30 in our culture.
My friends, mostly mid 30's to mid 40's want- a genuinely kind woman, as opposed to phony kind, want someone affectoionate in the bedroom, she doesn't have to hang from the chandaliers.
If they cook or clean great but most of my friends and I already do this. A girly girl is usually a high maintenance princess. No thanks!
David M. at June 4, 2009 10:20 AM
"do you really pay $100 for a once-a-week housecleaning service? That's shocking; we would usually get that for under $14, and that includes laundry, ironing, vacuuming, cleaning windows, everything."
Yes, we do. We have a minimum wage here in the US, and even if you hire someone of questionable legal status, it's unlikely that they'd work for less than $9 an hour, unless they're stealing your shit. Mof4 and I live in the same city, and the LEAST I've ever paid to have my house cleaned is $60 for a half day... that's just surface cleaning, no laundry. The most I've paid is almost $350 for a one-time clean from a service, on a Saturday, before a big party. Right now, we have a lady who does almost everything, including the laundry, organizing, cleaning the fridge, etc, and we pay $150/wk for our 4br, 2 1/2 bathroom house. (I suspect we're being charged more than some of her other clients because of the three dogs, but whatever. She does a really, really good job, and it saves us from ever arguing about who the slob is.)
Furthermore, she's absolutely right when she says that $20k a year is an absolute minimum cost of childcare, especially for FOUR children. Our friends with nannies pay them at least $12 and hour- oftentimes more. Maybe you can find someone cheaper, but you get what you pay for. Infant care is even more expensive. Daycare centers aren't cheap, either. The only way I can see finding someone who would be less expensive than $30k, especially if they're cleaning, too, would be to get a live-in... but then you need to have room for an extra person in your house. And, you have to FIND a live-in that you trust, which is easier said than done.
Why in the world would you try to fault someone for trying to give their children healthy meals? I don't think preparing "3 square meals a day" neccessarily involves gourmet cooking, but little things like cutting up fruit and making sandwiches takes more time than you realize, especially when you have a bunch of kids running around and a crying infant. I understand why people feed their kids hot dogs and mac-n-cheese all the time, but I don't eat that shit, and I don't expect my children to.
Every single thing a mom does takes time. Just because you aren't there to see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. There is no laundry fairy. Bills don't pay themselves. The groceries don't magically appear in the fridge and the pantry. Running a few errands can take half a day, and that's WITHOUT children. I'm not saying it's like doing labor outside in the dead of summer, but it's still work that someone has to do, and there is plenty of value in it.
Not only that, but nowadays, if you're not watching your kid every single second of the day, the nosey asshole next door can call CPS you for letting your 9-year-old play in the front yard unsupervised.
ahw at June 4, 2009 10:26 AM
Spartee,
Being evertything to someone and having everything someone is looking for are two different things. My fiance isn't "everything to me". I have family, friends, a good job and interests of my own. He does, however, have everything I look for in a man. Of course, I'm talking about big things like his core values, sense of humor, core beliefs, and other "deal breakers". Heck, he even has almost all of the smaller, less important qualities. We lucked out.
Kim at June 4, 2009 10:40 AM
Divorced, no kids (many thanks to the mystic law which protects me) -- but if I were married I'd want my wife to stay at home, not me.
Not because it's beneath me but because I know the world is full of razor-sharp pointy things mounted at eyeball height for a three year old, five year old, and nine year old, and they exist in all of those positions simultaneously through some sort of time and space warp. WATCH OUT FOR THAT RAZOR SHARP ROLL OF PAPER TOWELS! I'd be a nervous wreck as a child-raiser.
At work all I have to do is heal the 50,000 year old rift between engineering and marketing. Piece of cake.
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at June 4, 2009 3:53 PM
As a single college student, the sum of whose worldly possessions fit into a dorm room that's probably the size of your walk in closet-I'm pretty much not qualified at all to comment on this topic. But under the cloak of anonymity, I will anyway. It seems that bringing home the household bacon and cooking said bacon are both worthy and necessary tasks. Everyone should just give themselves and each other a gold star and be done with it. As I'm procrastinating on writing a research paper, I actually did read through the whole thread and I have reached several general conclusions.
1. Life basically sucks all around once babies are in the pictures.
2. If the phrase, "Wow, you've worked hard. The (insert outcome of completed task here) looks beautiful. Thanks" were uttered every so often by husbands and wives alike, the divorce rate in our country might be cut in half.
3. I'd say the assertions made by the LW are more the dashed hopes and dreams of a recent divorcee talking than anything resembling inherent truth. I'm not really taking anything he says about women very personally at this point.
4. Jeff, don't worry so much about being some impossible mix bad boy/ sensitive poet to get women. Staying in shape, practicing good hygiene habits, and refraining from using the phrase "sanctimonious bull shit", usually gets guys a long way towards finding that special someone.
5. A lot of people seem to feel very under-appreciated. I'm going to start thanking people in my life more regularly.
I have written a toast: May all who desire it find someone with whom a loving, monogamous, equal partnership can be forged. And may each partner offer regular and frequent appreciation and aid to the partner's endeavors of-both the sexual and mundane variety. And may condoms never break.
Well, I should probably get started on research paper. Good day fellow amy alkon readers.
Lily at June 4, 2009 7:04 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/06/harried-with-ch.html#comment-1652037">comment from Lily2. If the phrase, "Wow, you've worked hard. The (insert outcome of completed task here) looks beautiful. Thanks" were uttered every so often by husbands and wives alike, the divorce rate in our country might be cut in half.
Wise words, Lily!
This is one of the simple truths I know about people. We all like to know what we're doing is appreciated. I complain about a lot in society -- as a blogger, as a columnist, as an author (in my book that's coming out at the end of October), and when I see stuff I find wrong in passing in life. I think it's important to balance that out -- and I do -- by recognizing people who do things well (my friends, my boyfriend, my editorial assistant, people who work at Trader Joe's, etc.) This doesn't mean snowing people (they can see through that anyway), but by trying to take notice of what they do that's outstanding and appreciating them personally, and letting them know.
Amy Alkon at June 4, 2009 9:06 PM
"I don't think preparing "3 square meals a day" neccessarily involves gourmet cooking, but little things like cutting up fruit and making sandwiches takes more time than you realize, especially when you have a bunch of kids running around and a crying infant."
If a kid is old enough to "run around", he's old enough to not need someone cutting up his fruit for him - sorry, but I think that's ridiculous pampering and spoiling. As soon as a kid is old enough to make his own sandwiches, he should be making his own sandwiches.
And sorry, but I don't feel sorry for people who complain about all the work they "have to" do when in fact they are doing a lot of things that really are not only not necessary at all, but possibly even bad (e.g. spoiling children instead of teaching them to be hardworking and capable of doing things for themselves). You're welcome to do it, but don't sit around complaining if you're really just taking it on yourself to be the martyr.
DavidJ at June 5, 2009 1:14 PM
"Every single thing a mom does takes time. Just because you aren't there to see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. There is no laundry fairy. Bills don't pay themselves. The groceries don't magically appear in the fridge and the pantry. Running a few errands can take half a day, and that's WITHOUT children."
And you assume I don't know that, why, exactly? I already do all those things myself, for myself; I don't have a woman doing anything for me, and that's fine, I can take care of myself.
DavidJ at June 5, 2009 1:19 PM
Lily - congratulations, you've just solved 90% of the world's problems (get to work on cats and dogs living together though). I'm serious, the happiest people I've known have been the ones who recognise your points 1, 2, 4, and especially 5 and just get on with it rather than looking for perfection. I can strongly recommend your resolution to thank the people in your life, being appreciated is a far greater currency than money for most people - when it's sincere of course!
And as a single in my mid 30s with absolutely no desire for children, I'm definitely with you on the indestructible condom...
ltw at June 6, 2009 6:28 PM
"but little things like cutting up fruit and making sandwiches takes more time than you realize"
For multiple kids: 5 minutes, tops, with full clean up.
Next!
Spartee at June 7, 2009 10:42 AM
I am a single father and I'll tell you, it is hard work trying to get it all done! But, I work all day, pick up at night, wash clothes, make dinner, clean the toilet and the whole bit. It is hard work, but I have the satisfaction of knowing I have my son and I don't have to impress anyone. When i look at all the legal fees I spent over the past 5 years, I can't complain or bitch too much because now its all gravy!!!
My solution to problems in the household that take time that I don't want to do: throw it away or take it to goodwill....
mike at June 8, 2009 3:37 PM
"For multiple kids: 5 minutes, tops, with full clean up."
Bullshit.
ahw at June 9, 2009 12:50 PM
"When I speak to my compadres at work, I am surprised at the amount of women who they think are okay or average."
So, are the number of women who believe this about themselves in your estimation totally gorgeous or in desperate need of a makeover (overhaul)?
Just curious....
little doe at June 9, 2009 5:16 PM
Yes it's true there are countless women who cling to the feminist "women are martyrs" nonsense and act like they do much more for their families than they actually do.
But there are also countless women who do much more than they ever admit, preferring to be doers and not braggers.
Yes the house can be cleaned relatively fast...but you're only talking about the bare necessities.
In the long run there's much more to. And then you have the mothers who CHOOSE to do much more than simply clean the house. They're involved in the family/kid's/hubby's lives in many different ways.
Had to laugh at Amy's response...it's true our grandmothers had a WHOLE LOT MORE work to do than our modern wives.
But that's true of us men too, out in the garage for example. Modern tools make our work much easier than that of our grandfather's.
As Pat Buchanan once said: "The real liberators of American women were not the feminist noise-makers, they were the automobile, the supermarket, the shopping center, the dishwasher, the washer-dryer, the freezer."
MikeR at June 9, 2009 7:21 PM
"Life basically sucks all around once babies are in the pictures."
Very sad to see that sentiment in print; children are a well spring of joy like nothing else. Sure it's frustrating, stressful and chaotic but it's also glorious, truly.
As for the balance between work and home, women have it worse than men, partly because society has impossible expectations, but also because many women are perfectionists and will whip themselves up and down for not being perfect in all ways at all times.
My wife supported me while I was underemployed and just getting started and now that I do OK she stays at home. It was her choice, my preference is that she be happy, she's a pleasure when she's happy. So really that means almost anything she wants that I can give her is hers for the asking, but she's so sweet she won't abuse the privilege. She was driven and successful in her career and is driven now as a mother. She's driven to have it all under control despite having six year old and 20 month old boys. So while she can and does do so much, she's continuously frustrated that the boys are watching too much TV or house isn't cleaner and more organized or that every dinner wasn't home made from scratch and nutritionally balanced.
I cook some days, clean the dishes and change the baby when I'm home. We have a house cleaner help us out twice a month (at $70/session). She's so hard working herself and so appreciative of even the littlest thing I do to help. She's every bit as beautiful as she was when I married her ten years ago next month, but now she's happier and wiser and laughs more from joy and less from nervousness. I wish I could say I deserved this life or planned for it, but I don't and I didn't (thank you God). Men have it easy, life is laid out for us, all we have to do is stick around. Women take the big risks in relationships and families, and the expectations are endless.
Memphis Aggie at June 10, 2009 6:20 AM
"Life basically sucks all around once babies are in the pictures."
Very sad to see that sentiment in print; children are a well spring of joy like nothing else. Sure it's frustrating, stressful and chaotic but it's also glorious, truly.
As for the balance between work and home, women have it worse than men, partly because society has impossible expectations, but also because many women are perfectionists and will whip themselves up and down for not being perfect in all ways at all times.
My wife supported me while I was underemployed and just getting started and now that I do OK she stays at home. It was her choice, my preference is that she be happy, she's a pleasure when she's happy. So really that means almost anything she wants that I can give her is hers for the asking, but she's so sweet she won't abuse the privilege. She was driven and successful in her career and is driven now as a mother. She's driven to have it all under control despite having six year old and 20 month old boys. So while she can and does do so much, she's continuously frustrated that the boys are watching too much TV or house isn't cleaner and more organized or that every dinner wasn't home made from scratch and nutritionally balanced.
I cook some days, clean the dishes and change the baby when I'm home. We have a house cleaner help us out twice a month (at $70/session). She's so hard working herself and so appreciative of even the littlest thing I do to help. She's every bit as beautiful as she was when I married her ten years ago next month, but now she's happier and wiser and laughs more from joy and less from nervousness. I wish I could say I deserved this life or planned for it, but I don't and I didn't (thank you God). Men have it easy, life is laid out for us, all we have to do is stick around. Women take the big risks in relationships and families, and the expectations are endless.
Memphis Aggie at June 10, 2009 6:21 AM
juliana- what effing planet are you from?! Please go back to it!!!
We american women will be happy to drop you off at the spaceport!
linny at June 13, 2009 11:08 AM
No offense Memphis, but your account of what life is like w/ your wife sort of contradicts your argument - i.e. children are a wellspring of joy and so forth.
I mean, you feel guilty, she's still unhappy, and there's no way out of it because of all the pressure. That's exactly the state of affairs that a lot of people worry about.
Marko at June 14, 2009 1:56 PM
WHOA- It seems like we're all missing a major point: the writer said after he divorced, he found he could clean an entire house in a few hours. Right- any SINGLE person can do this, male or female. The trick is cleaning up after 2 or more people, especially if there are small children involved.
His apples to oranges comparison and run away ego shows why he's no longer married and I'll bet while he's left his wife and kids behind; they're not unhappy to see him go!
Peg at July 7, 2009 8:06 AM
Back in the 70's,the feminists had one of their usual insane campaigns, about this exact topic. Oh, we poor, poor dearies are worked so hard! Life is so cruel.
And, they gave these great big numbers on how many hours women worked each week. (They turned out to be false, but since when does lying slow up a feminist?)
I went around and asked the bachelors in my area just how many hours a week they took to do their housework, total, including laundry, cooking, washing dishess, and vacuuming. No one took an hour a day total.
I concluded dearies were messy creatures. A man does it in an hour a day, and they take hundreds of hours a week.
Before I remarried, it sure didn't take me long. When I came in the door, I popped a load of clothes in the washing machine. Then, I started water running in the kitchen sink, put the frying pan on the stove, and started cooking, setting the table as cooked. As soon as the food was on the plate, the cooking items got washed and put in the drainer. As soon as I finished eating, I washed the eating utensils. When the washer stopped, I put the clothes in the dryer, which would spin once in a while to keep the clothes from wrinkling.
If I went out, when I came in, I took the clothes from the dryer, and put them in their place. If there was dust, I took care of it a bit every day.
You may say, well, with kids, there is a lot more work. Oh, wait a minute, one complaint women have today is men don't want to marry and have kids. I wonder if we could come to an important conclusion on these two known facts.
I have watched many women over the years. Two wives. Sisters. Mother. Daughters. The problem is many women are disorganized and incompetent. They can piddle for hours and nothing gets done. Then, they whine about all the work they have to do.
By the way, I was primary care parent for our hyperactive son. Kids aren't that hard to take care of, again if you know how to work with kids.
I watched my eldest daughter fight with her own little daughter for a long time, while pretending to fold clothes.
I asked her to let me do it while she went out of the room. I had the little girl help me, and we had a great time and got the clothes folded in a short time. I have seen this again and again. You can treat them like little people, or as dolls to be shoved aside.
And, yes, many women make easy things hard. My wife leaves me here in Mexico for a month or two at a tie. I spend little time cleaning because I don't let mit get dirty. When she starts cooking, there are spatters and spills all over the floor.
Let me make it clear. Not all women are incompetent nitwits. Some are as efficient as I am. They usually don't complain and whine much about all the work. Nor do they complain and whine about their mean cruel husband not doing the work for them.
irlandes at September 27, 2009 8:30 PM
I have noticed there is a tendency in American culture in general, although somewhat more among women than men, to always feel a need to be busier and more put upon than the next guy. I don't know if it's the Puritan work ethic or what, but it's obnoxious. Americans in general watch a great deal of television, use a lot of convenience foods, and spend a lot of time on Facebook and other web sites. That goes for Americans who work at full-time, paying jobs and stay-at-home parents.
I used to work full time. Now I stay home and take care of two kids (one is 4 months old, one is 4 years old). I have no "help" come in. My husband's job is not difficult, and he both helps out around the house as much (or more) as I could expect him to and he respects and appreciates what I do all day.
The thing is that most of this discussion hinges on how we define "hard" and how we define other things like "have to" and "take care" of children. These things don't mean the same thing to all of us. In my experience, a whole lot of time gets completely and utterly wasted at paying jobs, so I take with a grain of salt those people who complain about how unmercifully they are driven all the live-long day by their bosses and deadlines. This is undoubtedly true for some people in some jobs, though.
Similarly, what I think most people who do not stay home with small children fail to understand is not that it is difficult work, but that it is...hmmm...I can't think of the word. What I'm trying to describe is that, for example, I am never without my children. I not only do not get sick days, vacation days, lunch breaks, or potty breaks, it is that I end up doing nearly every task in the day with only one hand and half a brain, because I have an infant in the other hand and a 4-year-old asking me bizarre questions which are occupying half my brain. So, making lunch for 3 people is easy. Making lunch for 3 people with one hand while answering questions about obscure dinosaurs, a subject you know nearly nothing about, is...not hard, really, but different. It's not like anything I ever experienced at work. My husband claims it is harder than his own work, a job where he is required to and allowed to focus for sustained periods of time on the job at hand. He wouldn't and couldn't do what I do, because he tends to act at home as he does at work. He would never have these conversations about our son's latest passion with him. He wouldn't let himself get distracted from his tasks that way. I do--and it makes me seem like an incompetent, inefficient nitwit, even to myself at times--because I think it's important to encourage my son's passions and imagination and learning. I'm not saying my husband doesn't want our son to learn, but he has a totally different style.
As for "have to," I think most parents do more for their kids than they "have to." I should hope so. What you "have to" do to raise kids is pretty minimal, but kids do benefit from extra effort up to a point. I don't advocate hovering, but kids do best somewhere in a middle ground between bare minimum and helicopter.
And then as far as what it means to "take care" of kids: The basics of taking care of kids and housekeeping are more tedious than difficult. If all you do is the basics, then you should have plenty of free time in the week. The hardest thing about this for most of us, I think, is that it is not a delineated task. Parts of it are. "Making lunch" is a task with a definite beginning and end. The bedtime routine has distinct tasks and a clearly defined end goal. But so much of child-rearing isn't like that at all. Teaching your child to be a good person is not a clearly defined process you can break up into tidy, discrete tasks. Teaching your child to clean his room is not all that difficult; teaching a sense of personal responsibility is harder and less clear. In my experience from the world of paid work, most jobs consist mostly of defined tasks that must be completed by such-and-such a time and follow a protocol and so on. I was a teacher for some time. Each day, I had lesson plans to follow, each building upon the last building to an ultimate goal. I gathered and made materials for each lesson plan, then taught that lesson, and eventually we reached a point where I could assess whether or not we had reached the goals we were meant to reach. Raising kids isn't that neat, though. What are the goals? When are they accomplished and how do you know they are? Again, for some people, this isn't "hard" but for some, it is.
Basically, I think most of this is a matter of personal prejudice (some people are going to think that my days are all idle bliss, no matter what I say or do, just because they feel they need to be busier or have a more difficult life than I do) and definitions of terms. I will agree that some stay-at-home moms seem to want to split parenting and housework "equally" with their full-time-working spouse, and I find this unfair and childish. I find stay-at-home moms who write obsessively about "me-time" to be somewhat spoiled and narcissistic, mainly because they seem to get rather a lot of it and not care one whit whether their spouse gets any at all.
Julie at October 2, 2009 1:10 AM
Because I'm a teacher I spend the summers home with my small children, so I have a bit of perspective on both roles. My son is 3 and my daughter is 1 1/2. I love my children, but having two so close in age is a huge challenge for me. My son is extremely energetic and requires attention non-stop, and he rarely listens to me. Now that my daughter is mobile, she is quite a handful too. Trying to get housework done while keeping my two lovely little monsters from hurting themselves or each other is stressful and exhausting. To be perfectly honest, I look forward to the start of school. For me it is easier, though I do feel that I miss a lot of valuable time with my kids. My husband stays at home with them during the school year and he is a pro. He has the house clean, dinner cooked, and the kids under control. I really don't know how he does it all.
Tami at October 26, 2009 6:20 AM
Wet wipes is groot vir jou gesondheid.
mendil at August 30, 2010 5:13 PM
Good day I am so glad I found your blog page, I really found you by mistake, while I was searching on Digg for something else, Anyways I am here now and would just like to say many thanks for a incredible post and a all round thrilling blog (I also love the theme/design), I don’t have time to look over it all at the minute but I have bookmarked it and also added in your RSS feeds, so when I have time I will be back to read more, Please do keep up the awesome work.
Darryl Dudash at October 14, 2011 5:19 AM
Leave a comment