Things That Go Plump In The Night
I'm absolutely appalled by your response to "Fatty With A Dream," the woman whose boyfriend hasn't touched her in over a year because she gained 40 pounds. Contrary to what you wrote, it isn't unrealistic to expect your boyfriend to be attracted to you after you've gained weight. Also, it was absolutely unnecessary to tell her that she has "put on the equivalent of a 5-year-old child" or that she has gone up "a tent size." I think what needed to be said was this: "Dear FWAD, A woman's sex appeal has more to do with her confidence than her waist size. A woman, no matter what her size, is infinitely more attractive if she truly loves herself and how she looks. If your boyfriend can't appreciate you as you are, he's not worth it. Many men find curves on a woman to be highly attractive and desirable. The more you love yourself, the more others will as well!
--Voice Of Compassion
It sounds so higher consciousness to say inner beauty is what really matters, but in the real world, you don't spot somebody at party and want to rip their clothes off because they look like the type to sweep an old lady's walk or read to the blind.
Because I give advice for the real world, I told this woman the truth: Male sexuality is highly visual, and male lust usually has a weight limit. At a certain point, "more of me to love" becomes "way too much of me to lust after." Or, in the words of one of my blog commenters: "My sister once asked her husband, 'Would you still love me if I weighed 400 pounds?' He replied, 'From a distance.'"
Of course, it's the height of political incorrectitude to advise a fat woman that she'd be more attractive if she lost weight, or even to call her fat. She's just "differently weighted," a "person of width!" And sure, those would be appropriate ways to refer to this woman if her fatness were a birth defect, or if she came down with conjunctive fatty-itis. But, like most people who are fat, she doesn't have a thyroid condition or "metabolic issues"; she just neglected to close her mouth when her hands were full of Ho Hos.
When a woman snacks herself up 40 pounds and her boyfriend's refusing to touch her, about the last thing she needs to hear is "Confidence is sexy!" Trust me, her girlfriends are already reassuring her, "It's okay, you have a really pretty face" (while thinking that they're having a little trouble finding her face in all that fat). It's easier to say whatever makes somebody feel good in the moment, but that only prolongs their misery. It's kinder to tell the truth, in stark terms -- that the pot they see at the end of their rainbow is actually the kind that flushes. They can choose to change or accept the consequences, but at least they're clear on the consequences; in this case, that keeping the weight probably means losing the boyfriend and having a really hard time landing another. Yes, there are many men who "find curves on a woman to be highly attractive and desirable," but not a whole lot who feel the same way about folds.
You could have pointed out how much easier it is to have sex with a fat woman. You just slap her on the thigh and ride in on the wave!
Seriously, I've always admired the way you stick to your guns when people (including us, your loyal blog commenters) oppose your ideas.
While it is true a confident fat person is more attractive than a "woe is me, I'm so fat," as you suggest, a guy is not likely to be attracted to the confidence when he's repulsed by the fat.
A chubby chaser might lust after the confidence in an obese slob, but no other man would.
Patrick at March 30, 2010 1:12 AM
By the way, I took the first paragraph for my Facebook, and linked the rest.
Patrick at March 30, 2010 1:20 AM
Thanks for proper link-excerpting!
Amy Alkon at March 30, 2010 6:15 AM
Confidence and self-care can overcome a lot. Wearing make-up, dressing well, etc., can increase a woman's sexiness no matter what her size.
Or, we could look at it this way: A thin, confident woman is sexier than a fat, confident woman.
I've seen lots of overweight women who love the way they look. Sometimes they are attractive. Other times, they're the size 18 women wearing size 6 pants that say "juicy" across the ass.
Also, I hate the whole calling fat "curves" thing. Curves are curves and come in all sizes. Fat is fat and comes only with fat.
MonicaP at March 30, 2010 6:44 AM
I hate the "curves" thing, too. Generally speaking, when men think of a woman with curves, they're thinking of Marlyn Monroe, or maybe Anna Nicole Smith at her thinnest. Curves = Boobs. Men like boobs (fortunately for me , some like more than others). Don't tell me that men like "curves" and think that justifies fat.
Lyssa at March 30, 2010 7:16 AM
""Dear FWAD, A woman's sex appeal has more to do with her confidence than her waist size. A woman, no matter what her size, is infinitely more attractive if she truly loves herself and how she looks. If your boyfriend can't appreciate you as you are, he's not worth it. Many men find curves on a woman to be highly attractive and desirable. The more you love yourself, the more others will as well."
Women, this is a delusion. Ms. Alkon's harshly made points are correct.
Men may find a lack of confidence annoying, or men may find confidence as a nice bonus in a woman they are otherwise attracted to, but confidence is garnish, not the meal.
Spartee at March 30, 2010 7:25 AM
"I think what needed to be said was this: "Dear FWAD, A woman's sex appeal has more to do with her confidence than her waist size."
I posted my serious thoughts on this topic last go-round. Now I've degenerated to--Dear Fwad, change your name.
Pricklypear at March 30, 2010 7:33 AM
"A thin, confident woman is sexier than a fat, confident woman."
I would say a healthy, fit woman is sexier than a fat woman, regardless of confidence levels. So the former woman would be sexy (if somewhat annoying) if she was utterly lacking in confidence. A fat woman with world class confidence would maybe make for a funny drinking buddy or business partner, but would not really inspire lustful yearnings.
I knew gals I hung around with in high school, college, and early career years who, as I think ahout it, were very confident women. I really enjoyed their company. They went on to be MD/PhD holders, politicians, professionals and executives. But I was not attracted to many of them in any way, despite their confidence. (And at 17-28, a male will find almost any woman attractive enough, if you know what I mean.)
/shrug Maybe other guys are different. That was my experience, however, and from what I can tell by hanging around with guys all my life, the experience of all the guys I know.
Spartee at March 30, 2010 7:35 AM
I would say a healthy, fit woman is sexier than a fat woman, regardless of confidence levels.
That's what I was trying to get at, in my half-assed way. Confidence levels aren't going to turn an unattractive woman into an attractive one. Confidence is nice, but it can also give people an unreasonable view of their own sexiness. You are not sexy just because you think you are.
MonicaP at March 30, 2010 7:43 AM
So yeah, there's a huge difference between curves and obesity. I see a lot of women who I think would look better with another 10 pounds or so. But 40? We don't know what the original LW's height or build is, but on a petite woman, 40 pounds could be up to 50% additional body weight. Even on a more average-sized woman, 40 lbs. is between 1/4 and 1/3 additional weight. Heck, I weight 215; I need to get about 15 lbs. off and it shows on me. If I gained 40 lbs. I'd be a blimp.
Cousin Dave at March 30, 2010 7:57 AM
Confidence is important. As a man who lives in the small bubble of westerns that do enjoy "folds", I will say that a fat women who doesn't like to have sex because she is to ashamed is problematic for my ilk. But let me be clear there are not that many of us, and we start by dating fat women. we don't fatten up normal women. I can't help the fact that I am attracted to fat just like my best friend can't help to be attracted to anorexics. Both of these choices leave us with unhealthy women, if we had control we certainly would choose otherwise. I am currently trying to help my wife lose weight not because it's sexy but because its necessary for her to clear up some health issues/concerns, I AM NOT going to encourage her to lose more weight then is needed because I will not like it, and I have told her as much.
Weight gain is a problem for most men out there. Your husband may love you enough to not cheat. This doesn't mean he can have sex with you if he can't stay hard looking at you.
Anonymous at March 30, 2010 8:32 AM
We've done this one haven't we? I think she should go on a low fat, low protein, vegetarian diet to fix the problem...
For the humour impaired that was a joke. I do see Amy's point that you tell people what they need to hear rather than what they want to hear. LW can find plenty of friends to do that stuff I'm sure.
Contrary to what you wrote, it isn't unrealistic to expect your boyfriend to be attracted to you after you've gained weight.
Yes. It is. Maybe won't always happen, but you can't expect it to always be true.
Ltw at March 30, 2010 8:33 AM
Ok folks, I've made a little (terribly ugly) graph that I think illustrates well how I feel confidence levels and weight affect how sexually attracted I might be towards someone. The gist is that yes, sexiness is increased with confidence level. But as you get overweight (or too skinny), the levels drop off a lot faster than confidence levels could make up for it.
http://imgur.com/okNBo
Also, there's another factor. Where exactly is all this confidence going to come from? If you take someone who's worried that she's not sexy because she's overweight, which method do you think is the easiest way to boost her confidence and make her feel sexier? A regimen of self-delusion designed to convince herself that she's sexy no matter what and any man should love her for who she is, or shedding the excess poundage and convincing herself that she's sexy because she is actually becoming sexier.
Confidence is nice, but it's bloody hard to fake it.
Greg Clarke at March 30, 2010 8:34 AM
It's true that you can't force yourself to be attracted to someone you aren't. But we should all be aware that our significant others WILL age, and just because you're a 70-year-old guy doesn't mean you find 70-year-old women attractive. But REAL relationships are built on more than that, and genuine intimacy makes people attractive above and beyond their looks. The problems with her boyfriend are caused by FAR more than a weight gain. FAR more.
It's also true that a significant number of men ARE attracted to women with a bit extra. Speaking for myself, the older I get, the more I find heavier women attractive - I'm not sure why. So maybe she should ditch the guy who probably doesn't want to be with her anyway, and find one who doesn't mind extra weight, and is open to intimacy, not just sex.
James at March 30, 2010 8:44 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/03/things-that-go-2.html#comment-1705424">comment from Anonymouswe start by dating fat women. we don't fatten up normal women.
Exactly.
Amy Alkon at March 30, 2010 8:45 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/03/things-that-go-2.html#comment-1705426">comment from JamesThe problems with her boyfriend are caused by FAR more than a weight gain. FAR more.
Actually, you don't know that.
Amy Alkon at March 30, 2010 8:58 AM
"But we should all be aware that our significant others WILL age, and just because you're a 70-year-old guy doesn't mean you find 70-year-old women attractive. But REAL relationships are built on more than that, and genuine intimacy makes people attractive above and beyond their looks."
So because people age to 70, a younger man should get over his similarly younger mate getting fat?
Also this "REAL relationships" stuff? Looks like a "No True Scotsman" logical fallacy/rhetorical device.
Spartee at March 30, 2010 9:17 AM
Makes me smile to see my little family anecdote in the column, it do.
I have about 20 lbs to lose. Gained it due to rather dreadful medical stuff (long story, not interesting enough to relate). Having been skinny and fit all my life until said weight gain, and thus confident in my attractiveness since adolescence, I do find that the fact that I act like a hot chick even though I am currently a less-hot chick does tend to "fool" people. But I am not counting on attitude, I'm working on getting back to being unmitigatedly hot.
I was thinking at the gym this morning--those people who say they've tried everything and just can't lose weight. How many have actually committed to 60+ minutes of combined cardio and weights 5-7 days a week, plus a highly calorie-restricted no-refined-carbs diet? It ain't easy, but it is a choice.
anathema at March 30, 2010 3:34 PM
This has nothing to do with the unaffectionate boyfriend, what men do or don't like, and loving people for what they are (or become) but can I just point to this LW, and to FAWD, that 40 lbs is a lot of extra weight to be lugging around. Go to the grocery store and hoist 40 lbs of potatoes! Most men won't find you attractive when you're barely able to get up stairs without gasping for breath or suffering the various unpleasant effects of diabetes. Just saying.
catspajamas at March 30, 2010 4:24 PM
A theme that's running through this comment thread and the one from "Jan" from the "Realism Unpopular Among The Soccer Moms" post, is that women shouldn't be obliged to do anything for us men. As if it's an unconscionable crime against womanity to expect women to thin and pleasant. Even worse for the woman who betrays the sisterhood of the unflattering sweatpants by wanting to be attractive to her husband.
I just don't get it. Men are expected to do things for women, but women aren't expected to do anything for men. I suspect that it's precisely because we do so much that it can't be acknowledged. Civilization has been built with the blood and sweat of men, but somehow motherhood is now the most important job around.
Tyler at March 30, 2010 8:19 PM
Many's the time I've seen western women in Japan and on planes back to the US who look horrified or disgusted at how Japanese wives take care of their husbands, even the occasional elderly couple. I saw one woman shake her head in pity at an elderly Japanese woman pouring some tea from a bottle for her husband (before they started confiscating our drinks at security). Doing something for a man seems to be a big taboo.
crella at March 30, 2010 10:04 PM
Oh, and 'Voice of Compassion' sounds more like the 'Voice of Unicorns, Rainbows and Strawberry Shortcake'...women lap that self-esteem/fat acceptance crap up because it absolves them of all responsibility for the state they're in and their mates' reactions to it. 'Lovely just how you are' 'Loving myself no matter what my shape' etc just makes me ill. All this PC fat acceptance is why my niece is over 200 pounds at 17 and wears backless halter dresses. But she's 'beautiful in her own way'. Uh-huh.
crella at March 30, 2010 10:10 PM
Doing something for a man seems to be a big taboo.
Didn't Amy say something to that effect in a column once? I think it was the one where the husband was buying his wife slightly-naughty clothes and she was returning them because they weren't her style. Amy said something about the feminist propagandists making it so that you're not supposed to do things to please a man. Pissed me off then, too.
because it absolves them of all responsibility for the state they're in and their mates' reactions to it
Absolutely right, crella. That was my point on the original thread: LW's letter, even though she was writing to Amy for advice, made her out to be the victim of circumstance and a chauvinist boyfriend, thus neatly thrusting all responsibility onto others. I'm not letting boyfriend off the hook, because he obviously has problems, but LW can't control his actions. Really loving yourself means loving yourself enough to maintain your body and your health to some degree, versus just giving up out of despair of changing anything and calling it self-acceptance.
NumberSix at March 30, 2010 10:57 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/03/things-that-go-2.html#comment-1705581">comment from crellaDoing something for a man seems to be a big taboo.
Gregg is very sweet to me and I love doing things for him. We were at a party, and the kitchen was a long way off, and I got the disapproving stare from a woman when she overheard me asking him if he wanted a coffee, then trotting off to get it, and bringing it back to him.
Amy Alkon at March 31, 2010 12:11 AM
I feel like this article is redone over and over and I can't help thinking that it's because Amy likes the pushback.
We get it - men don't like it when their partners get fat. It's like 2 letters on this in the past fortnight + the other million letters on this exact same issue. They don't even explore it from different angles. Woman gets fat, partner is unhappy. You: stop being fat. It's kind of like if Dan Savage only did 'I'm gay and want to come out' letters and he said 'come out'.
I do love your advice Amy and let me frame it in a different way - why are you wasting it on stupid fat chicks who are about to lose their boyfriends anyway? Do you not get bored writing the responses?
Another one of these letters at March 31, 2010 1:56 AM
Again I'm a fan - I just wonder what the point of the letters are - this letter repeated the same advice that the earlier letter gave, and is almost identical to every other response written on this that you have ever done.
The points are valid but why repeat columns?
I also think that you could go beyond your advice if you want to explore it further. How about: relationships are an implied contract and so excessive changes are unfair. How about - not having sex in a year is a huge issue that for any reason needs lots of discussion etc etc.
Another one of these letters at March 31, 2010 2:00 AM
How many have actually committed to 60+ minutes of combined cardio and weights 5-7 days a week, plus a highly calorie-restricted no-refined-carbs diet?
If you work and have kids you don't have that kind of time.
Michael Eades (Amy's health guru) argues that half an hour a week of "slow burn" weight training (ie. moving slowly to work muscles to exhaustion) is sufficient to stay in shape and get trim.
Engineer at March 31, 2010 2:03 AM
"I got the disapproving stare from a woman when she overheard me asking him if he wanted a coffee, then trotting off to get it, and bringing it back to him."
The nerve of you, to enslave yourself! ;-D
crella at March 31, 2010 3:55 AM
So because people age to 70, a younger man should get over his similarly younger mate getting fat?
When a 25-yr. old lets herself go, it's really unfair.
When a 45-yr. old with a job and kids makes some kind of effort to stay in shape, it's appropriate but appreciated.
When a 55-yr old manages to avoid being dumpy, it's unfortunately rather exceptional.
But women need to realize that men aren't just thinking about what's inside.
Engineer at March 31, 2010 3:56 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/03/things-that-go-2.html#comment-1705635">comment from Another one of these lettersI just wonder what the point of the letters are - this letter repeated the same advice that the earlier letter gave, and is almost identical to every other response written on this that you have ever done.
I got a lot of angry letters on this one and this saves me writing back on the letters to the editor page of a lot of papers.
Amy Alkon at March 31, 2010 6:58 AM
If he done the same for you, I imagine a lot of the guys present would probably think to themselves that you're a domineering shrew and Gregg is an emasculated wimp.
I guess we're not allowed to do things for the people we love any more.
Patrick at March 31, 2010 8:04 AM
"You are not sexy just because you think you are." Me-OW! Love that quote, and how true it is!
The LW should try substituting "geek" for "fat" and switch the sex of the woman who is the topic. Because all geeks are sexy—especially the jobless, 24/7 game-playing ones who live with their parents.
Razor at March 31, 2010 8:20 AM
You are absolutely correct, Patrick! At a party my fiance had the spineless compulsion to get a drink for me, as he was already going to get his own, and a couple of the 50+ married guys we're teasing him and saying things like "I bet you wont be doing that in 5 more years." Apparently common courtesy has an accepted time limit in relationships.
Conversely, I lived with a fiercely single "enlightened" woman who rolled her eyes and sighed at me any time I cooked for, cleaned up after, or did anything out of my way for my fiance (then boyfriend). Since I wasn't receptive to her teachings she just decided to gossip to our mutual friends about how I would just debase myself in any way to keep a man.
I don't really know what happened, but showing affection in the manner of favors or courtesies is bad, bad, bad no matter if you are male or female.
Jen at March 31, 2010 8:43 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/03/things-that-go-2.html#comment-1705683">comment from JenI'm just so amazed by people who don't take pleasure in doing things for their partner.
Amy Alkon at March 31, 2010 8:54 AM
Doing something for a man seems to be a big taboo.
This is a very American attitudes, that you are being oppressed if you consider the wishes of other people.
I can honestly say that I don't understand why American men marry women who think this way.
You have a wife who will not take care of herself, she deliberately becomes ugly to punish you, she resents being a wife, always sees herself as a victim of your cruelty, and believes that the goal of her life should be to 'have a love affair with yourself'.
It's no wonder that your divorce rate is so high!
I think that rather than American women being independent that are actually too dependent on men for their self image. It is the only way to explain this reaction.
Someone who is genuinely confident and happy does not go around chanting I Love Myself, I Love Myself.
casimer at March 31, 2010 9:10 AM
I think a lot of women confuse their husbands/boyfriends with their daddy. Your daddy is supposed to give you unconditional love. Your husband/boyfriend is your sexual partner, so being sexually desirable is part of the arrangement.
Chrissy at March 31, 2010 9:15 AM
(**sorry, accidentally hit enter before I was ready)
Jumping in to agree with the curves DOES NOT equal fat. Fat is fat and that's that. I wonder if going to have their cholesterol and triglycerides checked would help to change their tune? Honestly, when obese people get to the point to where yeast and mold are growing in their "curves" creating a positively foul odor (if you've ever spent time with someone who has a severe weight issue you know the smell I'm talking about)they need to make several profound lifestyle changes.
Chris at March 31, 2010 9:29 AM
Amy writes: I'm just so amazed by people who don't take pleasure in doing things for their partner.
And the blistering contempt they have for those of us who do!
Patrick at March 31, 2010 12:04 PM
Yes, being PC is getting in the way of the truth much of the time.
Now every kid thinks they can be the next Babe Ruth and like you say, every overweight, I mean fat person, (I can hardly say it now) thinks that sexy is all about confidence.
Honesty is harsh, but sometimes better in the end.
One of The Guys at March 31, 2010 2:28 PM
I remember when I brought my wife out to Hawaii.
We were in a hotel for a few days, and I'd picked up some groceries for our little fridge.
I had a friend come by around lunch time, and I asked if he wanted a sandwich.
He said yes thank you, and got up to get it.
I put up a hand to stop him.
At that very same instant, my wife got up, and we both said at the same moment:
"Stay there, this is wench work."
Of course she added:
"Stay out of my kitchen!" (bear in mind there was only a fridge! *L*)
She saw it as much her duty to see to the comfort of guests, as I did to carry in every heavy bag she brought with her, and not let her lift so much as a finger in the doing, except to get the coffee on for me when I would be done with it all.
We're happier people, letting the boy do the boy stuff, and the girl do the girl stuff, playing to each of our respective strengths. She does stuff for me, I do stuff for her, where's the problem?
I don't know of any man who is considered much of a man if he refuses to take care of his woman. Why do some women consider it ok to do nothing for their man? Go figure.
Robert at March 31, 2010 2:49 PM
I'm not sure where folks got the idea that fat women don't do anything to please their husbands... I know plenty of fat women who have jobs, do the housework, cook for their husbands, wear pretty dresses and make-up, etc. I know thin women who do, too.
I don't know ANYONE who does nothing for their spouse, male or female, fat or thin. Who are these assholes the rest of you hang out with?
NicoleK at March 31, 2010 3:37 PM
I think there are two topics being discussed here, Nicole.
As I said in my comment, it is often strangers who speak up or otherwise express disapproval about wives doing something for their husbands. They make a snap judgment that assumes from the fact that the wife pours tea, gets a coffee for him or something similar that the wife is a doormat.
It seems indicative of a general attitude in society.
crella at March 31, 2010 5:44 PM
They could also mind their own business. I find myself thinking, even if one spouse is falling all over themselves to do things for the other spouse, so what? There's got to be more important things to worry about. If one spouse was constantly wearing sunglasses to hide the black eyes, they would have cause to speak up. But over a particular relationship dynamic that isn't affecting them in the least? They need to get lives.
Patrick at April 1, 2010 12:43 AM
"But over a particular relationship dynamic that isn't affecting them in the least? They need to get lives."
Well, yes, of course that's true, but I wanted to clarify my point, as you asked "Who are these assholes the rest of you hang out with?". It hasn't been anyone I actually know, but strangers who make remarks or gestures.
crella at April 1, 2010 1:38 AM
"the sisterhood of the unflattering sweatpants" lol Funny, Tyler.
I agree with Jen that this attitude that you're not supposed to do things for your partner is applied to both genders. I've heard my boyfriend described as "whipped" by his buddies because he does nice things for me. Fortunately, he's secure enough that he doesn't let that stop him, but I imagine this negative peer pressure effects a lot of relationships.
Misery loves company. Anyone who wants their relationship to be good needs to ignore, and preferably avoid, others who wish you failure. There are a lot of unhappy people out there who are emotionally invested in the idea that relationships can't be fulfilling.
lovelysoul at April 1, 2010 9:22 AM
The Never Do Anything For The Benefit Of Your Husband ethic is promoted through a lot of women's media, specifically outlets targeting upper / middle class white women.
According to these sources, there's a planet somewhere called The 50's, and if you do something to appeal to a man, you're sent there. You're not allowed to wear shoes and are forced to do housework all day, and have sex when you don't feel like it.
But their advice is rather hypocritical. Because according to these same sources, men are supposed to bend themselves into pretzels in order to satisfy women, because men are disposable and all women are beautiful and deserving and yada yada yada.
It's a lot of condescending tripe, but some women really buy into it.
Janet at April 1, 2010 9:29 AM
I don't know ANYONE who does nothing for their spouse, male or female, fat or thin. Who are these assholes the rest of you hang out with?
I have to wonder the same thing. Even the most dysfunctional of my friends know that relationships require you to give a little.
MonicaP at April 1, 2010 12:42 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/03/things-that-go-2.html#comment-1705910">comment from MonicaPIt's not just "giving a little" that some women take issue with: it's the stuff of serving a man. If I were a lesbian, I'd serve my girlfriend like I serve Gregg.
Amy Alkon at April 1, 2010 12:47 PM
I think people tend to go to mental extremes, making assumptions about your entire relationship based on one cup of coffee. Anyone who peeked into my living room three weeks ago would assume I keep my fiance locked in the apartment every weekend building me shelving.
MonicaP at April 1, 2010 1:09 PM
"It's not just "giving a little" that some women take issue with: it's the stuff of serving a man. If I were a lesbian, I'd serve my girlfriend like I serve Gregg."
lol. As long as you're getting back, which you are, then that's the way it should be. I think, often, women don't count the things that men do as "serving" them, when they actually are.
Yesterday, my fiance saw that I had a really low tire, and he called me early on his way to work to let me know before I left the house, then followed up throughout the day to make sure I'd filled it before going anywhere else.
Some women may not realize that this is one of the many practical ways men show love. In fact, they might even get offended thinking he believes them to be inept or something. But when a guy cares enough to look after your well-being, all you should be is appreciative...and realize that, for him, that's "serving" you in much the same way that dressing up (or undressing) for him is.
lovelysoul at April 1, 2010 1:42 PM
I think, often, women don't count the things that men do as "serving" them, when they actually are.
Agree, lovelysoul. As Crid was saying over on the diamond thread, women tend to want things from their men that have no intrinsic value, like flowers. I'm reminded of a column of Amy's where the LW was complaining that her boyfriend didn't give her cards or flowers or things like that. She did say that he scrubbed the bathtub for her so she could have a nice, relaxing soak, but she didn't see this as "romantic." The man who will get down on his hands and knees to scrub the tub for you is showing more caring than the man who sends you flowers because it's easy and he doesn't have to think too hard (not knocking all men who send flowers, but you have to admit this does happen). My dad's been spending the last several days trying to fix the adapter cord for my mom's laptop. I know she likes that better than a schmaltzy card.
NumberSix at April 1, 2010 2:05 PM
I'm just so amazed by people who don't take pleasure in doing things for their partner.
It amazes me too! I love doing things for my guy and he likes doing things for me. They are not always the same things. Your coffee example, if one of us gets up we offer to get whatever the other wants. If I saw he was out of coffee, I would ask, like you did.
The one who makes breakfast is usually me because I like to and I like to do it for him. Plus the little item that he is a better cook than me and breakfast is one I do pretty good :)
Working on the trucks, that is his territory, but he always offers to show me how to do those things too and I always try to learn it. Good thing he is a patient man.
Suki at April 1, 2010 4:47 PM
Anathema, you are so right! I too would like to see how many people who've "tried everything" have actually walked the walk. When you've spent 5-10 years gaining extra pounds, you should expect to spend at least a few years using a combination of changing what/how much you eat and exercise to unload. It requires a commitment of time and effort to get rid of fat, just like it did to acquire it.
Engineer, watching what/how much you eat has no bearing on whether you work outside the home and have kids. In fact, I was thinner when I had children to care for than after they became adults. I was trying to set examples for them about what they eat and staying healthy. If you have time to shovel potato chips, doughnuts and soda into your cakehole, you've got time to NOT do those things - jobs and kids or not.
Fat isn't unattractive to men only. I size people up all the time. When I see a fat person, one of the first things I think is "gee, he/she'd be so good-looking with ten to twenty fewer pounds." Then I start thinking about how unhealthy all that fat is...
elise at April 2, 2010 7:53 AM
My husband always has a big glass of iced tea first thing in the morning. Sometimes I will make it for him, and when I do, he always says, "You DO love me!" It's the little things that count.
FSM devotee at April 2, 2010 8:38 AM
I think part of the problem is youthful ignorance. Many of these moms, if they still have small children, are in their 20s and 30s. The last time they were single was maybe in college or early 20s, when it was still relatively easy to attract a guy.
So, they don't appreciate the fact that they have a good guy. They're still functioning as if good guys grow on trees.
Well, there are many good guys out there, but not so many who want to take care of your fat ass and 4 kids. If you run off your husband by letting yourself go to seed, you'll be in for a rude awakening once you're single.
Those of us with more life experience have learned to really appreciate a guy who cleans the tub, checks the oil, cuts the grass, and remains faithful. These things may not be as romantic as flowers, but if that's your biggest complaint, you don't really have anything to complain about.
lovelysoul at April 2, 2010 9:24 AM
I have the sense that a lot of women kind of snap. They put so much effort into being young, eligible, and attractive that when that's gone, they just give
jamonit at April 2, 2010 12:27 PM
jamonit,
I think I agree with you and Amy knows lots more about the science of this than me so follow what she says :)
The snap is probably a symptom, not a cause of letting yourself go.
My friend mentions in his last book (science fiction, not science), one reason "companion services" get so many "partnered" people is because their partners stopped providing variety to their relationship, especially in intimacy. Not all of them, but many.
Really not sure what the cause is, first guess is following bad advice from a long line of bitter people.
Suki at April 3, 2010 9:01 AM
I think these women actually want to be with men who ask them to do things for them, just so they can tell them "NO! Getcher own goddamned coffee! I'm not your personal slave!"
Patrick at April 4, 2010 9:54 AM
My problem with this discussion seems to be much different from that of your general readership. I take issue with your statement that "[. . . ] it's the height of political incorrectitude to advise a fat woman that she'd be more attractive if she lost weight, or even to call her fat." Political incorrectitude? Your derogatory statements in the previous column ("you got a trough of Haagen-Dazs, stuck your snout in, and didn't look up for two years straight" is just one of them) are not examples of "political incorrectitude," they are incredibly rude and unnecessary. I would like to see you leave the "tent size" and "International Hausfrau of Pancakes" on the playground where you found them, but I'm guessing a woman who has written a book about "beat[ing] some manners into impolite society" doesn't need my advice on the subject. Cheers.
J. at April 4, 2010 12:26 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/03/things-that-go-2.html#comment-1706351">comment from J.Your derogatory statements in the previous column ("you got a trough of Haagen-Dazs, stuck your snout in, and didn't look up for two years straight" is just one of them)
So, every week, I make jokes about the irrational, the people acting exactly opposite their best interest, and all sorts of other people, but it's suddenly rude when I make fat jokes?
FYI, the Haagen-Dasz crack wasn't original to that column: It was a joke I made ABOUT MYSELF when we had to shoot my book cover photo. (I told people that I'd spent the month of March with my snout buried in a trough of Haagen-Dasz so I had to go no carb for four days before we shot my book cover.) Of course, I have a sense of humor, and laugh when my boyfriend and others make jokes about me, like about my ADHD. Gregg: "Do I have your divided attention?"
Should I sob when he says that instead of laughing?
Amy Alkon at April 4, 2010 1:36 PM
Some people work very hard at being offended.
NumberSix at April 4, 2010 8:19 PM
When you boil it down, this attitude is based in the belief that men shouldn't have any discretion in who they find attractive, that they're somehow obliged to love and care for any woman who'll have them. So there's no need to appeal to them.
I think that this may be why so many women seem to have trouble taking responsibility for their relationships with men. Everything is always the man's fault, even if she's obviously the one who's behaving badly - he's making her do it.
For all that we complain about men objectifying women, there's a fair amount objectification towards men as well.
mauri at April 5, 2010 7:46 AM
I'm not sure why the outrage. Amy you'd give the same verbal ass beating to a guy gripping that his wife won't look at him cause the life of beer and pretzels has turned him into a keg.
If being fit and skinny was easy it wouldn't be attractive. Note the use of fattening huts among nomads where skinny is the default. Having the time (even with kids) to maintain yourself is a sign of status in the US. Being a fat ass takes little effort or money. McDonalds can fatten you up real quick and real cheap.
vlad at April 5, 2010 1:42 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/03/things-that-go-2.html#comment-1706491">comment from vladExactly, vlad. Glad to have you back.
Nobody ever complains when I beat on people, except for fat people who happen to be women...fat women who asked for advice because they're miserable in relation to being fat.
P.S. I do fine at McDonald's. I get the bacon-cheese Angus burger, no bun. No bun, no fries, no drink with sugar or weird substitute for it.
Amy Alkon at April 5, 2010 3:52 PM
When you boil it down, this attitude is based in the belief that men shouldn't have any discretion in who they find attractive, that they're somehow obliged to love and care for any woman who'll have them.
Nail on the head, mauri. I mean, men will sleep with anybody, right? So there's no need to go to all that trouble when they should just be kissing the ground you walk on because you've deigned to date them. This attitude toward men goes with my rant about television commercials. Aliens researching this planet would have to think that all men are inept morons the way these people carry on.
NumberSix at April 5, 2010 8:12 PM
I like it when Alkon beats up on female fatties.
It's fun to boink plump-girls doggy style, and smack their bottoms until they glow red (if they are white, that is). Pull on their pigtails too.
They deserve it--they are fat.
BOTU at April 6, 2010 9:43 AM
BOTU. You are disgusting.
Sabrina at April 6, 2010 10:18 AM
"It's fun to boink plump-girls doggy style, and smack their bottoms until they glow red (if they are white, that is). Pull on their pigtails too."
Trying not to feed trolls but can't help it.
So you are an admitted fatty hatting chubby chaser. Freud with have a field day with this.
vlad at April 6, 2010 12:53 PM
it's very late but "Who are these assholes the rest of you hang out with?" NicoleK
heh, they're ex-s
SwissArmyD at April 6, 2010 3:42 PM
I dunno'. I thought BOTU was hilarious. My opinion might be different if I really thought he was serious. Sick humor, but humor.
irlandes at April 6, 2010 5:59 PM
Fat is ugly. Truth hurts, but nobody's going to change that, we're hardwired that way. The good news is that you can do something about being fat.
"I'm just so amazed by people who don't take pleasure in doing things for their partner."
There seems to have arisen a culture of viewing relationships as conflicts instead of partnerships.
Lobster at April 9, 2010 7:51 AM
Weight, what a touchy subject...I think the advice is fair for this person asking. Her guy says he isn't attracted to her and her weight gain is the reason why if she wants to keep him she better lose the weight. That is if she wants to keep him in particular.
It's a shame really that looks are what are important to some men...biological truth or not. Because weight can be controlled easily for some not so easily for others and there are very thin childlike weight standards on American women today that is pedophilac-ly creepy.
I believe at the heart of this whole weight issue, that attraction isn't really about weight it's about the youthful look that comes from a lesser weight. The sad part is all women no matter their weight ...age. A lot get dumped for getting old, and that has nothing to do with a fistful of ho hos.
I really don't believe a heavy woman is the only one lacking self confidence, so is the man who needs to be seen with a only thin young chicks on his arm.
It's seems very shallow, all of this and sad. Life is too short. Her guy has pretty much said in so many words, that she , the true soul of this woman, is not as important as what she looks like on the outside.
If this woman's man really loves her then he should go the next step, actively support her in changing to a healthier lifestyle.
tuckerkitty at April 9, 2010 11:05 AM
"If this woman's man really loves her then he should go the next step, actively support her in changing to a healthier lifestyle."
The guy stuck with her for a year. Without sex. I'm guessing he has some attachment to her.
Since she knows he doesn't want to have sex with her because she's gained forty pounds, she could get up and exercise. Instead she wrote to an advice columnist. Hoping, no doubt, for the very advice that "Voice of Compassion" gave her, which is feel good nonsense. I sincerely doubt that if her boyfriend "actively supported her", which would mean he'd have to tell her again that she's fat and she has to change if she wants to have sex, she'd do much more than complain, again, that he doesn't love her because she's fat.
Lost My Cookies at April 14, 2010 8:07 AM
This is why women have no right to complain about "communication". Communication must, in order to be helpful, be honest. It sometimes means that something unfavorable must be communicated. If you're going to flip your wig when something unflattering is said, even if it's true, there's no communication. There's only shallow wastes of air. Now get on the exerbike, fatty. And by the way, I'm 280 pounds and have no sympathy.
Tony Locke at April 14, 2010 10:34 AM
Congrats for telling this woman like it is, and not backing down. This reminds me of something I read recently about Pierce Brosnan's wife, who was gorgeous when he married her, and has porked up to well over two hundred pounds now. The majority of comments on the article were from women who said Mrs. Brosnan looked "like a real woman" and she shouldn't be obligated to lose the weight in order to keep his romantic interest, etc., etc.. Well, no, she doesn't look like a "real" woman, she looks like an OBESE woman. Her lifestyle is unhealthy, and her appearance has evidently (predictably) resulted in flagging romantic interest on the part of Mr. Brosnan, and when women make excuses for destructive behavior there is a word for what they become: enablers.
It also kills me how women who think this way condemn the man for what he says to the woman when he tries to get her to take better care of herself. "Oh, how can he be so cruel?" "That's just awful of him to make her feel bad about herself like that!" They never give a thought to how the woman who is so inconsiderate as to let herself go like that without ever thinking of her man's feelings. What do they think it says to him when she balloons up that way? The answer is, that it tells him she doesn't care about herself to stay healthy, and doesn't care enough about him to want to stay attractive to him.
Darren at April 15, 2010 7:54 PM
My mother gained a lot of weight because she had a stroke. She cant walk without a cane and gets tired from doing the tiniest things, so excersize is pretty much out of the question (she does try on a hometrainer, but just slowly cycling for five minutes and ten she's out for the count for the rest of the day -not worth it), and to make things worse: she also takes medicine that causes her to gain weight. However, my dad still finds her attractive because she still takes the time to put on make up, use jewlery and tries to dress nice. She might not be hot, but she is certainly attractive.
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