Truly did Sir Terry Pratchett write: "The leopard does not change his shorts".

I remember seeing an episode of a sitcom (I think it may have been "Boy Meets World") where the soon-to-be-married couple live in the same dorm room for a weekend and annoy the holy hell out of each other. The woman says to her man at the end that she can't wait to get married so she can change everything about him. And that was meant as an "awwwww...how sweet" moment. Going into a serious relationship hoping to change fundamental personality traits of the other person is a bad idea and will likely end in disaster.

I think part of the problem is that women tend to take small ideas about their relationships and turn them into huge ones. "This is doable, so I'll take it to the next level." For example, your husband being a bit more considerate of your feelings when you ask is not unattainable. Your husband changing the part of himself that doesn't care that he makes you cry when he screams at you after coming home from work probably is. There's a Dear Margo on creators.com right now where a teenage girl is asking advice about her boyfriend. He is really sweet to her when they're in private, but in public he insults her and calls her fat and unnecessary. Margo told her to not waste her time trying to change him. It may be a teenage thing that he'll grow out of, but she doesn't need to be there while he figures it out. She should cut the project dating off at the pass.

Amy, I have to say this column contains some of my favorite lines of yours:

Martha Stewart taps into hers, and like a one-woman swarm of rickracking, sponge-painting locusts, transforms everything in her path. --And that is how I'll see her from now on.

even better than the feeling of having much better shoes than all the other women at the party --That is a great feeling.

Should you find yourself jonesing for a project, see what you can do with a hot glue gun, a spray can of gold paint, and 26 packages of macaroni --Ha!

"He is really sweet to her when they're in private, but in public he insults her and calls her fat and unnecessary."

This, by the way, is why it's so easy to be a playboy. It turns out that basic politeness puts you ahead of about ninety percent of the men out there.

(Great quote, JC!)

The woman tells herself he just hasn't met the right woman (her, of course!). With her unique brand of beauty and heart, she will do the impossible: paper-train the wolf and get him to roll over on command.

Why the desire to be special? I have an idea (with apologies to the extraordinary women I know).

Statistically, the distribution of characteristics in the human female is highly kurtotic, making for smaller variations, and a population tightly clustered around the mean. Compared to men, women are more average in height, intelligence, and (I think) most other ways. In other words, it's difficult for a woman to stand out.

Worse, what makes us men notice women is the flower of youth, which will only wither and fade. Handsome men stay handsome, smart men stay smart, but a fertile young woman turns into an infertile middle-aged woman far too fast.

Mother Nature isn't a feminist, she's a misogynist. She's made the vast majority of women excellent at having babies and average at most everything else. So, why do women try so hard to be special? Maybe it's because they really aren't.

I took two sentences from paragraph 3 for my Facebook and linked the rest.

Such a shame that Sandra Bullock, who is beautiful and intelligent, could make such a naive choice and cause herself so much pain in the process.

Okay, stupid guy-question. Do you ladies really inventory and assess the shoes of all the other ladies at the party?

@Tyler: "So, why do women try so hard to be special? Maybe it's because they really aren't." Well, son, I have four, and they're pretty special.

I don't get it - this seems to be a serious discussion about 2 people who nobody has ever met, based on stuff that's been read in newspapers.

Sure all the points are valid but alas none of them are necessarily valid for these 2 people. It's all based on speculation from rumors and press releases.

Speculating on human nature is what we do best! Everyone has an idea of how "I'd do it" and very few are identical. I also think those women who think they can change a man from what they have into what they want are misleading themselves and setting themselves up for certain misery. I told my dearest friend, who's in a really bad relationship right now: You liked him when you first met him. You're not supposed to enter into a relationship expecting and/or making plans to change anyone. You're supposed to be getting into a relationship with someone because you like him the way he is. That's what he signed up for. "I love you, let's get married, now CHANGE" just creates a whole new set of problems. If you really love someone for who they are, that should be enough. If you don't, get the hell out now, while the getting's good. (And I can say this because I learned it. The hard way.)

As a guy labeled quote " a nice guy" other nice guys have seen this through out our lives. The nice girl who goes for the bad boy.
In a book -Smart Women Foolish Choices the authors finally said something that makes sense. The women like the emotional excitement of the bad boys. Men get their emotional excitement from jumping out of planes, riding motorcycles etc...
Women get their excitement by dating bad boys and trying to fix them.
Valeri Bertenelli (sp) and Heather Locklear
are the first to come to mind.
Watching other people make these mistakes and thinking it's going to be different for you, is done out of pure emotion and not logic.

@Tyler: "So, why do women try so hard to be special? Maybe it's because they really aren't." Well, son, I have four, and they're pretty special.

old rpm daddy, you're da bomb.

I don't notice other women's shoes or handbags unless there is something very original about them. I DO assess women's overall look.

As a guy labeled quote " a nice guy"

Or to put it another way, a sap - and a convenient friend for women to run to when their latest exciting, dangerous, but sadly unchangeable boyfriend dumps them. In between you never hear from them, but they keep a list you know - of guys that will listen to their sob stories and provide them with a pseudo boyfriend for the day for nothing more than company and a kiss on the cheek. It's not because you're a good listener guys - they're just feeling unwanted and testing that they can still attract someone.

That sounds bitter, doesn't it? I think I've said too much :)

Some women want to pick and choose from column A and column B.

"I want the crazy-good sex on the back of the motorcycle, and I want him to dream about changing diapers and quiet dinners with family. I want him to buy me expensive presents spontaneously, and I want him to plan for retirement and a down payment on a house."

Most men are not Batman -- wealthy, upstanding citizens by day and dangerous crime fighters by night.

"Women marry men hoping they will change.
Men marry women hoping they will not.
So each is inevitably disappointed."
- La Rochefoucauld

@Tyler . . . interesting. I would have thought it was exactly the opposite. In my unscientific assessment guys tend to be . . . guys. Unless they're incredibly hot or willing to go out on a wild sartorial limb (which works for a few but not many. There's a reason David Bowie, Marilyn Manson, et al get so much attention), their options regarding hair, make-up (none!), clothing (pants or super-tight mini skirts? No-brainer for 99.99% of guys), shoes, etc. are pretty limited. The difference between a well-turned-out bloke and a schlub tends to be along the lines of, do his jeans fit, is his shirt ironed, and is that 5 o'clock shadow sexy or sloppy? On the other hand, even a relatively plain woman can use hair (cut, color, style), make-up, clothing, shoes, and a created "persona" to differentiate herself from the herd. A guy just basically has to be hot. If he isn't, there ain't a lot he can do.

Contrary to popular belief, women DO want nice guys. But we want guys who have more going for them than just "nice." It's like saying that a girl has a good personality. Of course men want a woman with a good personality, but if that's the first and best thing you have to say about someone, then there's a problem (and it's usually code for ugly).

If you look at what "bad boys" have in common (besides the tats and motorcycles) they're usually 1) attractive 2) confident and 3) desirable to other women. Too often I think guys delude themselves into thinking that women aren't interested because they're "too nice" when in reality women aren't interested because they need to hit the gym more often. Or guys confuse low self confidence for being nice. For example, one of my good guys friends (a great guy btw) won't talk to girls at bars because he's "not the type of guy" to take advantage of drunk girls. While that's a great sentiment, there's a huge difference between statutory rape and just asking for someone's number, and in this case he's using his nice-guy persona as a cop out to avoid rejection.

*Sorry for the slighly off-topic post*

I think, too, that what's important in an SO changes as we grow older (and maybe wiser). Funny how 'kind and compassionate' have gone right up my list of important attributes. He has to be hot, too, of course ;-).

As Ltw and others have hinted above, I suspect that "nice guy" is pretty often a cover for other factors, like shyness or timidity, that keep them from winning over the ladies. And yes, I speak from the experience of having been one. But guys should face the facts: men compete with each other for women's attention. Being the "nice guy" seldom works in that context. I remember years ago sitting down for drinks with three coworkers, two guys and one woman. I was the only unmarried one in the group, but we three guys immediately started trying to position ourselves over the other two, when in fact none of us had any reason to impress the lady! It was kind of a funny dynamic, once I figured it out, but there it was.

"Nice" has become so synonymous with "boring/spineless/unmanly/etc" that it is no longer useful for women to say that they want a "nice" guy. When I threw up my hands at the dating scene several years ago, I built a list that listed all the things that, collectively, my ex boyfriends had not been, and told myself that I wasn't dating anyone again unless he met that list. The top five were: kind, funny, respectful, responsible, and adventurous. There were other things on the list, of course, but I purposefully left nice off the list. "Nice" guys and guys who share my top five character traits have some qualities in common, so its easy to mistake one for the other if a girl tells herself she's looking for a "nice" guy...

Karen, you have a valid point, which is why we're not really addressing Sandra Bullock and Jesse James; it's more about the project daters. We can't know what kind of situation those two had (like Amy says, maybe he did change for a while before he and Sandra even met), but we can talk about the more general phenomenon of the "crafting gene". I just love that term. I think Amy probably took this particular question not because of the celebrity content, but because of the LW's sign-off: "In Bad Boy Recovery Myself." She's asking more about why she does what she does than she is about Sandra Bullock. And that's what Amy and most of us have been addressing. I like celebrity gossip as much as the next girl, but I don't actually like to attribute psychological motives to them (with the exception of a select few) because all we know is what's been in the media. However, the project dating isn't concentrated in the celebrity world. Women from all over do this and I think it's important to examine their motives.

What Tyler said about female population distributions is one of those very interesting facets of human populations that is never, ever, ever mentioned in stats departments at our nation's universities.

Break the rule, and the result may be a witch-burning on the quad.

It's really a lot like the old joke, "How many Psychiatrists does it take to change a light bulb?

Only one, but the bulb has to want to change."

My husband initially came with little to recommend him as a life partner. Though fun, charming and intelligent, he was a flagrant serial cheater when I met him.

We were platonic friends for several years, and he kept wanting more out of the relationship. Meanwhile he was telling me all the naughty things he was doing, so my natural response was, "Are you completely crazy? Why would I date you?"

Eventually, I thought he might actually have serious intentions towards me, so I was very unambiguous: If he wanted to try a grown-up, monogamous relationship, I'd consent to give it a go. If he didn't want to or didn't think he could, there was no point, because unlike previous girlfriends, I would very much leave if he didn't behave, so he'd better have no illusions otherwise.

That was over 5 years ago. It turned out we're a really good team. We married over two and a half years ago and he is a wonderful husband who never fails to make me feel loved and appreciated every single day. We don't agree about everything, but we allow each other space for our differences. In me he believed he saw someone who would "get" him, and he was right. So, it's not always a lost cause, it just depends why they're being bad in the first place.

For those nattering on about 'nice guys' I really suggest reading some of these articles in the link I will post. (if not all) Then think a bit.

If a large number of women you have been interested in have not returned the feeling, and you use 'nice guy defense' about it, then the item in common is you.

I hope everyone has a great day

Here is the link

http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/ng.shtml

There is a huge difference between a nice guy and a good man.

In my experience guys who consider themselves to be 'nice' guys, is purely their excuse for being single and unhappy. What woman wants a guy who has no confidence, is depressed and is bitter about being single? None. Oh, let us not forget the 'desparate' signal he sends out. They are also usually out of shape and average to below-average looking.

Then there are the guys who complain that women won't look at them because they are 'nice' guys but in reality they are jerks who may think they are nice but they really are not. They are angry bitter guys. And hey, how can a 'nice' guy expect to pickup a woman when he won't even ask her out.

Bad guys, on the other hand, ooze self-confidence, which is very sexy, most of them are average looking but they take care of their appearance and, well, are confident, fun and happy. Another truth that guys who think they are 'nice' won't like to hear is that 'bad' boys are very often nice, personable guys who are fun to be with.

Perhaps Sandra Bullock does have the "project" gene, and its imperative is not completely satisfied by producing movies.

So she found herself a "mad, bad and dangerous to know" guy who did what she should have expected.

We'll never know but I will always wonder what was going on between the two of them (Bullock and James).

I remember reading that Jesse James was obsessed with Sandra Bullock before ever meeting her in person. When a man tells you sincerely (or just convincingly) that you're his dream girl, that's pretty intoxicating. Probably it's easier to believe you're The One he's been waiting for.

After all, he's "never wanted anyone more," right?

It's true and depressing that there are fewer remarkable women than remarkable men, but I wonder if that's the result of choices women make--i.e., devoting themselves entirely to raising families and not doing enough to cultivate their beauty and talents.

"It's true and depressing that there are fewer remarkable women than remarkable men, but I wonder if that's the result of choices women make"

I love how someone can say this as if it was a fact and not just a statement pulled out of thin air. How do you define remarkable, and how are you quantifying it?

Shannon, I wondered the same thing myself. I read Tyler's post and thought, how many remarkable men do I know, and how many remarkable women do I know? Very few men, DOZENS of women. If Tyler can't see that, then perhaps he and not Mother Nature is the misogynist.

And can we talk for a bit about what MEN are looking for? Bitches. Bitches!!! Totally hot women with nails and makeup who spend 3+ hours per day at the gym and can get any guy they want, and know it, and will treat any stupid horny guy who has the bad luck to cross paths with them like shit and make him miserable. This is what the so-called "nice guys" chase after (or dream about and feel like they deserve). They think, just like women do, that if they hook up with someone who's hot, they are validated. It's no different from women and their chasing after what they can't have.

Go to a grocery store in a singles area on a Saturday night and spend a couple hours there (if you're bored). You will see countless couples. And every time you see a skinny hair-dyed made-up manicured woman with a guy, you will notice the guy isn't having any fun. They're picking up beer/munchies for whatever party they're headed to, and she's calling all the shots and bossing him around, and he's miserable. I lived in the same neighborhood for 7 years and saw it time and time again. I should film a documentary.

Thank you Shannon. I too want to know what defines a remarkable person.

"And can we talk for a bit about what MEN are looking for? Bitches. Bitches!!! Totally hot women with nails and makeup who spend 3+ hours per day at the gym and can get any guy they want..."

Wow, Sarah, nasty much?

After my divorce from a very-slightly-above-average-looking woman, I decided I was only going to date hot women. While I am an average-looking guy and on the short side, I am also successful, reasonably fit, and have gained some status in life. Thus, I am able to meet and date very attractive women.

You know what I found? Far from being "bitches," the hot women I've dated have been perfectly pleasant. In fact, they are often more pleasant than average-looking or below-average women - because they aren't bitter about not getting dates, consumed with jealousy of other women, don't give off vibes of desperation, are far more confident, and just generally enjoy life more. And they've all treated me better than the cheating, average-looking ex did, that's for sure!

And lest you retreat into the "hot women are all airheads" mode that is the last line of defense for average-looking women, several of the hot women I've dated have had advanced degrees, and all but one had at least a four-year degree. One was a physician's assistant, one a successful entrepreneur, one a teacher, one an engineer, etc.

The only downside I can see is that I sometimes have to wait for the current squeeze to get ready to go out - makeup, hair, etc. But this seems a small price to pay for going to a restaurant or club with the best-looking woman there - who is also intelligent, confident, happy, and always smiling. If this is a "bitch," well, bring on the bitches!

Idk, I'm one of those girls who spends, well not three hours at the gym but an hour, and I get my nails done and hair highlighted and eyebrows waxed and I tan and I always wear makeup, blow out my hair, and dress up and pretty much always wear/carry designer accessories. So yes I spent a lot of time/effort/money on maintaining my appearance, and if some guys are turned off by that it's okay-there's someone out there for everyone. It helps that I try to act low maintenance and make everything seem effortless-I really don't care if the guy I'm dating sees me with no makeup the next morning, for instance.

I think what Sarah's getting at though is that some guys have unreasonable expectations for the type of girls they want to date. If Mike, a successful, fit, high status guy resolves to date only hot girls, then good for him. If the wimpy dude who lives in his mom's basement feels the same way, well that's fine, but good luck getting any dates. I definitely filter out guys on a basis of looks (I like tall and really muscular, so I wouldn't be dating Mike, no offense) but I fully accept that some of the guys I'm attracted to may do the same to me (I'm 5'8 and a size 6; some guys want a size 0/bigger boobs/whatever and I'm not going to throw a hissy fit about it). It's anyone's prerogative to apply whatever standards they choose to their dating partner, but it's important to be realistic about what you yourself are bringing to the table.

I agree with Mikeinreallife and Shannon.

And to continue off topic.

Growing up my sister and I were always given a hard time by vindictive jealous average looking girls. My sister and I are both nice, intelligent women who never mistreated others yet were treated cruelly by others because of our looks. Thankfully mom understood what was going on and explained it to us.

My mother was an especially beautiful woman who was treated horribly by her ugly sisters-in-law. Mom's crime was being an amazing, beautiful, intelligent, adventurous woman who lived life to the fullest. After forty-five years of marriage my surviving ugly aunt continues to be a bitch and has added my sister and me to her hate list because we have the audicity to be better looking than our cousins. My other aunt realized her mistake and became a dear friend of my mom's, I wish she was the surviving aunt.

People do love to hate those they envy.

On topic. Women who look at men as projects are just projecting their own lack of self worth. A person who thinks well of themself does not need to settle for a project, they grab the real thing.

A person who thinks well of themself does not need to settle for a project, they grab the real thing.

I totally agree, Ingrid. It's an external extension of the "if I can just finish this one last thing, then I'll be set for life" mindset. The trouble is, you'll never feel complete that way, so there's always another "last thing." After a woman has sufficiently beaten her man into submission, there'll be the house, your career, children, the very best of everything for the children (because if you don't have their lives planned out by age two and fill every minute with activities, then they might as well just go start begging on the street now), and so on for infinity. It'll never be done.

"Gregg has an emergency sound on his iPhone that he uses when I'm changing my earrings for the 14th time, and about to make us late."

Lol .. brilliant. Note to self, try incorporate this idea of using humor instead of getting irritable.

"Women who look at men as projects are just projecting their own lack of self worth. A person who thinks well of themself does not need to settle for a project, they grab the real thing."

I've succumbed to that tendency in the past, partly for the reasons you give. I'm honestly tired of all the emotional basket-cases and drama queens though; now that I'm looking for someone 'serious' I just want someone relatively stable, level-headed, and together ... i.e. someone fun to be with who would make a good 'genuine partner' and potential mother.

"In fact, they are often more pleasant than average-looking or below-average women - because they aren't bitter about not getting dates, consumed with jealousy of other women, don't give off vibes of desperation, are far more confident, and just generally enjoy life more."

I have noticed exactly what you're describing in some less-attractive women. In general though, I've seen mixed results pleasant-ness-wise on all ends of the attractiveness spectrum; I see no major correlation.

"In general though, I've seen mixed results pleasant-ness-wise on all ends of the attractiveness spectrum; I see no major correlation."

Interesting. Somewhat recently, I met two less-attractive women. One was bitter as hell and spent the last twenty minutes of an hour conversation bitching about her ex-husband. The other was pleasant enough and "friendship material," but terminally insecure and texted me every week for four months, asking for dates after I made it clear I wasn't interested in dating her. I realize that two (recent) women is a rather small sample size, though.

Life is irrational .... Get used to it!

Let me see if I understand this. Men are supposed to seek life and dating advice from self-labeled Heartless Bitches?

If you stop and listen, you quickly learn the Nice Guys do get women, if they are willing to take worn-out 30's who suddenly want a husband before it's too late.

Good try but no cigar. Just more blaming men for everything women do.

Also, men, Nice Guys are hot here in Mexico. And, PI. And Thailand.

Tyler
Re: Mother Nature isn't a feminist, she's a misogynist. She's made the vast majority of women excellent at having babies and average at most everything else. So, why do women try so hard to be special? Maybe it's because they really aren't.

Tyler . . in response to your pseudo science, I refer you to the following average graph : .!.
I haven't heard your old tired argument since Helen Gurley Brown and her "mouse burger".

I do not see my life’s work as an evolution driven grab for a mate with homozygous $$ imprinted in his genome. Somewhere I heard it put best as men are frosting on life’s cake not the main course. I think contrary to helping, HGB plays on female insecurities. Nothing wrong in making yourself up to be the best you can be. But if so, do it for yourself, not because society says you need to leg shackle some hapless man into a farce of happily ever after with fake tail feather extensions and camouflaged saddlebags. I like men, I just don’t need to be dependent on one for my happiness, thank God. If I am wrong and end up a lonely old bag with 15 cats, at least “I did it myyy wayyy”. I have seen it 100s of times before - rose colored glasses fogging the path to divorce court . . .The worst part is women engineered their own unhappiness by listening to all that crap.

I do not see my life’s work as an evolution driven grab for a mate with homozygous $$ imprinted in his genome. Somewhere I heard it put best as men are frosting on life’s cake not the main course. I think contrary to helping, HGB plays on female insecurities. Nothing wrong in making yourself up to be the best you can be. But if so, do it for yourself, not because society says you need to leg shackle some hapless man into a farce of happily ever after with fake tail feather extensions and camouflaged saddlebags. I like men, I just don’t need to be dependent on one for my happiness, thank God. If I am wrong and end up a lonely old bag with 15 cats, at least “I did it myyy wayyy”. I have seen it 100s of times before - rose colored glasses fogging the path to divorce court . . .The worst part is women engineered their own unhappiness by listening to all that crap.

okay, for right now I would be happy to stop double posting . . I admit my standards are very low . .

There is apparently a lot to realize about this. I think you made some nice points in features also. Live wallpaper

Loved this episode! You two are funny and the drinking i think just made it better!

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I do not mean to hijack this thread but I'd like to find a good lawyer in Las Vegas and I cannot figure out how to find one. Do you have any info on this attorney? They're located in Las Vegas Nevada near my office. I cant find reviews on them --- Burdman & Coston, 8440 W Lake Mead Blvd # 100, Las Vegas NV 89128 - (702) 387-2400

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