The head on shopping cart collision... works every time.

Everytime I go to the grocery store, I have just left the gym. They are next door neighbors. I would be horrified to meet someone there then. I'd much prefer a night spot where I have prepared!

I always thought the suggestions to hit on women in supermarkets was really weird. A lot of the people I see at the grocery store here are married/non-single people doing the family shopping. I guess it could maybe work at the grocery store next to the local college campus, but at that point you may as well go to the bar...

Amy talking about "Game"? Has she taken the red pill?

"you fail your way to success" Or just as likely you fail your way to failure.
One of the problems with it is if he is doing something obviously wrong, he will never find out what, because no feedback.

The way to meet women is to live your life and find things you like to do that members of the opposite sex like to do. This could be just about anything.

The problem with the term hit on, is many people do not get the casual conversation that more women will respond to. Moving in for the kill too fast is one way to make a woman run.

The trick is to talk to people, both men and women, learn to relax and treat everyone like a casual friend. Most people will respond. When you get comfortable with that then you start thinking about casually asking for phone numbers. Many will say no, but many will say yes. Unless you want to be thought of as a creep, take NO for an answer.

I once kinda picked up a woman when I was a playground with my kids. I was there to have fun with my kids and they started playing with this other girl and naturally, I talked to the girls mother. And I grab my chances when I see them. You can pick up women the weirdest of places but I wouldn't recommend going to a playground to meet women. Just saying it's possible.

The Goddess writes: "The guy most likely to score at the supermarket is one who has the mojo to score at a wake, while leaning over the embalmed dead body."

Ryan O'Neal tried to score on his own daughter Tatum at Farah's funeral. I don't know as I'd describe him as having mojo. Why Farah left Lee Majors for him, I will never understand.

I think Worthit hits the nail on the head. It's not that the supermarket is a special place, but if you casually chat with a woman in line, you never know what might happen.

If you make polite conversation with a woman in line or waiting for an elevator, you can tell by her reaction whether she is available and interested. If so, she will usually turn toward you and keep the conversation going. If not, she gives one word answers and looks away. Take the hint, either way.

I was at the gym the other day, getting ready to leave, and some guy started talking to me. I looked at him and said, wait a minute, are you trying to pick me up? And he looked kinda sheepish (because he knows my BF and we all go to the same gym) and said yeah, and I said, "well, don't do that! You don't know where I've been!"

o.O

I'm not so sure I'd be wanting to take pointers from someone who calls himself "Mystery." Especially not this guy.

That being said, what you're looking for should probably factor in a little bit to where you look. Looking to get laid? Probably should not be in the canned foods aisle but in a bar or club. Looking for an actual relationshippy type thing? Probably should be looking somewhere where the type of person you're into would be hanging out - whether that's a bookstore or a Cat Fancy Enthusiast Convention depends on what you're into.

I think those articles are written by a woman hoping a man will someday hit on her at the supermarket.

The trick is to talk to people, both men and women, learn to relax and treat everyone like a casual friend.

I agree with this. I think the most attractive thing is knowing that a guy, whether you give him your number or not, is going to have a good time that night.

I'm not so sure I'd be wanting to take pointers from someone who calls himself "Mystery."

Mystery has some good advice -- and some downright creepy advice. The problem is when guys use his tips as a script. It's so transparent. He had a TV show -- so now every girl knows what a "neg" is, she knows when you're doing it, and it's creeping her out.

@sofar: oh my God, yes, the negs. That may have worked on me in 10th grade when my self-esteem was at its nadir, but really?

Although the image of someone negging in the grocery store is hilarious: "You REALLY don't know how to pick out cantaloupes!"

Greatest Grocery Pick Up Ever: Otter in "Animal House" picking up Dean Wormer's wife in the zuchini section.

I admit I haven't delved extensively into the world of pick-up artistry, since it leaves me feeling like I need a shower. I did read an interview with him that Salon conducted a while ago, and he came across as surprisingly smart and straightforward.

Has anyone here used PUA methods? Do they work?

Shades of Tom Cruise's character in Magnolia, jeez.

It's all numbers. Women like it if you dress well. Something that suggests upper-class money.

Basically, you can't care. Once you get over that hump, then it becomes like a game. Just ask girls out to see what happens.

You know how you sometimes keep reading a book to see how it ends, even though you are getting sleepy?

Get curious. If I ask this girl out, how will she react?

If you think of women as animals in some sort of test lab, that helps too. Keep score--how many said yes when I wore this outfit, vs. the percentages in another outfit?

Also, set up a contest with another guy. Who can get rejected most times in row, without being to overt. You begin to see how incredibly shallow and predictable women are.

Then it gets depressing, but the sex makes up for it.

This site is much better than Mystery. I read it everyday and I don't need to shower afterwards...
Fabulous site.

http://heartiste.wordpress.com/

@Choika - I'm laughing at your skepticism because your own "neg" (""You REALLY don't know how to pick out cantaloupes!") would probably work.

Congrats. You're a natural.

I've begun reading up on Game, for a couple reasons: for instance, to see what it might help me learn about myself. And to help my abysmal record at dating women.

Tried a little out at a goth club this past weekend. It was frightening how well it worked; a woman gave me her number after a couple minutes talking. That has NEVER happened to me before; I'm the short geek women try to bilk for money or favors (stopped that years ago).

Supposed to go meet her for drinks tonight in fact.

I'd say it's a little depressing that game works as well as it does (depending on how you approach it, of course). But frankly, it's not worth being depressed over anymore. I'm 32; lots more time to have some fun!

A fireman tried to pick up on me at WHole Foods. He wasn't a pin-up-calendar style totally hot fireman, and I already had someone I was casually dating at the time, but still. If the venue had been different it might have been more flattering than just sort of creepy and weird. I guess because it seemed so much like he'd read that that's what he should do, and it seemed really artificial & forced . . .

@snakeman99: Thanks, my next super-suave move would be to criticize how they bag their groceries.

"The guy most likely to score at the supermarket is one who has the mojo to score at a wake"

That reminds me of the time I almost scored at a funeral.

I find high success ratio is obtained if you pick up fat and horse-faced women.

"One of the problems with it is if he is doing something obviously wrong, he will never find out what, because no feedback"

No feedback is feedback.

"I find high success ratio is obtained if you pick up fat and horse-faced women."

I am fat and horse-faced. I do not want to suck your marker dick. If you had a bigger dick, research shows that you would have been a happier "man."

@Choika lol when Mystery's show was on VH1, my friends and I started to notice a lot more guys trying to neg in bars. I dunno, if something a stranger says starts making me feel bad about myself, it makes me want to run as far away from that person as possible.

I can see some of Mystery's tips as being a good springboard to get guys started with talking to women, though. One of my friends is part of a PU community in my city. And they borrow heavily from The Game.

But they mix it with a lot of self-improvement stuff. Each week, they have an assignment, and many of them don't even involve women. Some recent examples: Go to a biker bar and talk to old biker dudes; drive an hour in any direction from the city and spend an evening there. The idea is to get yourself out of your element -- and collect some interesting stories (that you can then, presumably, tell to girls).

@sofar - it's quite fascinating, I started thinking about the interactions I've had with guys I didn't know in the past couple years to see if any of them were negging me. A couple definitely stood out - I was working at a coffeeshop that had live music (a few years ago) and this guy who was a regular and I were gently mocking one of the (truly awful) live acts we had.

In a joking voice he said something like "wow, you sound like a real bitch!" My response was not "take me now," but "well, if you're going to call me one out of the gate, I think we can end this conversation!"

Negging fail.

The other day, a guy called asking for some girl, and I told him he had the wrong number. He said, "This isn't the girl from the cook-out with the nice legs?" And I answered, "Sorry, no...but I do have nice legs," and, without missing a beat, he asked, "Are you single?"

I'm not, of course, but you've got to hand it to the guy for trying. He was in NJ. Some girl probably gave him a made up number.

I was killing some time in a bar recently when a youngish (mid-20s is my guess) guy asked for my number. I told him very nicely that I was married, but flattered. He rolled with it well. He proceeded to try to suss out how happily married I was. I had to give him points for that.

Mystery's material works, but its all tactics. It won't give you self worth if you are lacking...for this you need life strategy. This is apparent in the book The Game, where you see so many PUAs go nowhere in life/relationships even though they can and do score lots of chicks.

Nothing wrong with learning tactics though, if you need them.

Any woman on this site would be lucky to be with a guy who had mastered mystery's material....for the same reason she would be lucky if he had a PhD in physics from MIT, or was a triathlete, or was a very talented amateur chef, or could fix cars.

It's all SELF IMPROVEMENT. Duh.

And yeah the LW needs some game before he starts stalking the supermarket hotties.

Thinking about it, supermarket or any food market is a good place to hit on girls because you can observe how sophisticated a girl is with her food.
Of cause, it matters only if you are into food as well as into girls.

I commented when Amy originally asked about men trying seduction techniques in the supermarket, because I've been approached a few times there. I even went on a date with one very good-looking guy who asked for my number in the parking lot after flirting with me throughout the store. Unfortunately he must have used up all his game number-closing. On the date he pressured me intensely for nooky in a manner reminiscent of high school boys. It was a shame. If he'd been any better at the game, I would absolutely have hooked up with him, because he was hawt. Maybe he thought if I was slutty enough to go out with a guy I met at the grocery store I wouldn't require any more finessing. It was a turnoff and I ran wildly away.

The guys who do well in bars? Yeah, same ones that do well at funerals and grocery stores.

I tried some of the techniques back before they started calling it PUA on the Usenet boards. Total failure. In discussing it with some senior members the consensus was that my problem & some guys in similar situations was that we were too old and targetting too old of women (late 20s for both) - the women were wise to the techniques and there weren't enough women.

I suspect location has a lot to do with it. Note that all the Mystery stuff I have seen was in Phoenix, AZ - which has just about the highest female/male ratio of a major city in the US...and a reputation as a pick-up town. Comparing that to the locations where I have lived, that is the opposite. In bar/club restaurent the single guy to women ratio is going to be 10:1 or worse. Plus, the woman's guard is up. Having recently been staying in a new state for work I thought things would be different. I have been going out a lot - and I could just be going to the wrong places - but I would say that the mode for # available women (i.e. not there with a guy) is clearly 0. The second difficultly is that if there are any, they are probably friends so if one gives you the brush off you are done for that night with the whole group.

Frankly, I just pissed tonight because I thought I finally had something last night, she slipped me a card when I asked about seeing her - yep, she is a stripper -- even has her hours on there. Nice.

To recap - his advice is go to environment where you have lots of competition and your target has their defenses up.

If I look at the couples my age I see a strong trend.
met at bar/club 0%
met at grocery 0%
met in college (conventional student - less than 24 years old) ~50%
met through friends (after college) 0%
met online ~20%
met through work ~30%
met at church 1.

Oh, unless you have a good feedback loop - you only fail your way to success by the shotgun method - with all those chances something has to hit something. Otherwise, it is fail your way to failure.

When Amy posted something about this in her blog, I commented that supermarkets are, in my experience, lousy places to meet people. Most women dress like slobs there and single guys have carts full of frozen pizza and beer. Neither gender is exactly putting their best foot forward.

I have to disagree with Former Banker above, at least to a degree. I very often go to clubs in the Phoenix area, but they aren't the hip-hop type clubs full of guys who look like they just walked off the set of "Jersey Shore," and with women who are so defensive that they're virtually unapproachable.

Rather, I go to clubs that play country music suitable for dancing. I don't mean line dancing, but couples dancing like two-step and country swing. Generally, the men who go to these places are cowboys (either genuine or "urban") and country boys who are almost unfailingly polite and know how to country dance. The women are generally eager for a man to ask them to dance, and almost always accept an invitation from a man, even if he's not the young buff driver of a Bentley. Country dancing had bought me five minutes of the attention of dozens of women at these clubs, and quite a few first dates.

Alas, knowing how to dance (rather than just simulating sex standing up) is almost a lost art in a generation of young men who grew up without fathers. Sad.

That photo of you on the front page...redhead with matching flyswatter...golden full length dress.

Stroke of genius!

sorry, I was annoyed, tired and probably not yet sober.

@Mike: I was meaning to compare AZ to the places I have lived. AZ - well Phoenix - has a reputation of having women that are very easily picked up and full night clubs. My only first hand experiance was a single night after a conference I attended for work. I wouldn't exactly say it ended in a pick up - but it was sure headed that way before her friends pulled her away.

I don't think the fatherless homes has anything to do with dancing. I don't know any of these dances and neither did any of my childhood friends and we all group up with a father in the home. In college I was good friends with a ballroom instructor, yet should would never teach anything. I would ask and should would say she would...later.

My point was that in my experiance that at clubs/bars there are actually very few women to hit on. Lets consider tonight. I went to a "happening" place...quotes because that is a joke, but relatively true. I passed a place that is listed online as one of the best bars & singles bar...5 cars in the parking lot. I arrived at my destination lots of cars. I went in. 5 couples (m+f) sitting together, 1 apparently lesbian couple (they were kissing quite often), 1 bartender (female), 3 waitresses, 1 male dj/manager/owner's son and I could occonsionly see a girl at the DJ booth talking to him but never saw her anywhere else. The rest of the club was tables with only guys at them. About 16.

Based on the women I knew back when I lived at place that actually had a club, all of them rejected any guy they didn't already know or was not their perfect type (e.g. greater than 6'4", etc).

I guess approaching will get your in practice of accepting rejection, but not much else. I did a spreadsheet when i was in my late 20s - about that time I was talking about before - and found little correlation with anything. I remember there was one club on a paticular weeknight, relaively early that was better than the rest...that was it. Clothes didn't seem to matter, technique didn't matter, nothing.

Talking to everyone works great if you are female or super handsome guy. I tried it as a part of a self help thing for a month. I had two conversations in that month through that program. Neither enjoyable. One was a guy complaining that the lady at the nail shop it was willing to work his nail fungus had quit. Another was an old lady complaing about her car - not, I didn't approach her - apparently since I had said hi to a bunch of people she felt free to yak up a storm. She wore jack-o-lantern shorts over regular pants... My co-worker on the other hand always (almost) had a good response and this appears to be true for all the women I know who start talking to strangers. They are very rare. this also works for my tall handsome friend.

The really rare part of your story about Greg? You, a woman, made any sort of first move - even a smile is pretty darn rare. And actually talking to him, so rare.

What The Former Banker has posted makes sense to me. My experience is that, especially in Southern California, many attractive women actually/actively *enjoy* making approaching or talking with them difficult, awkward, and humiliating. Unless of course you're George friggin' Clooney, then you could spit in her face and she'd find it charming.

Another thing I recently found illuminating-- if depressing-- is a blog (now defunct) called The Hooters Girl. For a long time, I thought if all else failed, I could at least go someplace like Hooters-- the girls might not go for a date with you, but they seem to enjoy your company while you're there, right?

WRONG. Turns out that according to the blog author-- herself a HG for about three years-- the waitresses at those kind of places view their single male customers as contemptible losers, at best. Don't even ask what she thought of men who are 'between jobs', overweight, even slightly nerdish, or balding. It was made quite clear that if you're not driving a brand-new BMW, making millions every week as a hedge fund manager, more ripped than Mr. Olympia, and able to tip $200 minimum for a plate of wings and a beer, they're barely tolerating you.

Anyway, I'm to the point that I chalk it all up to another good reason to leave California. Not saying I'll do any better in Nevada or Arizona (where I'd like to go), but I would at least hope most of their women have slightly higher depth and aspirations than to be the next Snooki.

It works both ways. I've experienced men reacting with anger and insults when I politely and gently rejected their advances. There are plenty of assholes of both sexes.

Amy and Lizzie: good points all.

I don't mean to come off so bitter, though I'm sure I probably have by now. I understand that in the real world, most likely, a guy's gotta have *something* (besides his heart) to offer a woman; they're only human after all. I personally have made it a point not to jump back into the pool 'til I've snagged myself a better job, have saved a bit more money in the bank, and have more reliable transportation. Then I'll probably sign up for some online services like eHarmony, as well as join some groups like Grub With Us, and maybe even invest in some of Mystery's advice.

It's just that it's the height of frustrating to see so many guys go through the motions like I'm trying to do, stick their neck out there, and *still* find themselves getting ignored, used and abused by women who *claim* they're not snobs, they're looking for something real. I've got nothing against being realistic in terms of romantic goals; I've put on some extra pounds and gray hair over the years, so of course those attributes aren't dealbreakers for me in a woman I find attractive. But I'd personally like to see more women try and make the same kind of adjustments for reality, instead of feeling free to break an unlimited number of men's hearts waiting for Brad Pitt to just happen to wander through the club's front door.

Amy, tried to post a more upbeat response to you and Lizzie but it apparently got stuck in your spam filter (it contained a link to Grub With Us). Rescue it please?? :-)

Former Banker: In bar/club restaurent the single guy to women ratio is going to be 10:1 or worse. Plus, the woman's guard is up.

I've never seen anywhere near that ratio in my experience going to clubs (always to see live music), but there are almost* always more men than women. The ratio usually seems to be about 1.5:1 or 2:1. (*The only exceptions are when I've seen lesbian musicians.) And you're right; I think women often have their guard up.

*

Amy: I meet people EVERYWHERE because I talk to them.

It's much easier to you and other women to strike up a conversation with men because men aren't defensive and fearful of women.

*

Amy: I probably would never have met my introverted boyfriend if I hadn't flirted with him. But, once I did, he ran with it. Women really do need to do their part, too -- but that's another column, and not an excuse for not making moves on a woman.

I think almost any guy is going to run with it if a woman flirts with him and he finds her interesting and attractive. But I think a lot of women are afraid to do what you did, to flirt with a guy they see, because if they do flirt and the guy doesn't respond they know they've been turned down and, in my opinion, women have a much harder time dealing with that kind of rejection than men do.

*
Lizzie: It works both ways. I've experienced men reacting with anger and insults when I politely and gently rejected their advances.

If women asked men out, so men got to give the thumbs-up or thumbs-down and women had to deal with rejection time and time again, I can guarantee you'd see some women reacting with anger and insults even when a man politely and gently rejected their advances.

*

Amy: my one mandate on looks: I don't care if they're scary-ugly and have three heads as long as they're tall.

Ah, the "tall" obsession women have. What I find interesting is that women seem to lambaste men for wanting women who are slender (or at least not fat) while they have no problem demanding men who are tall.

I may not have been clear on the ratio's I was thinking of singles and excluding the couples. Consider the following, a club has 99 people in it, 66 guys and 33 women (2:1). Now lets say there are 30 couples. So single guys = 66-30 = 36, single women 33-3 = 3. A ratio of 36:3 or 12:1. Where I have lately for work it is more commonly a few couple, some guys, and no single women. Things vary a lot by area. In the East I have found it to be much more balanced.

My experience with eHarmony lead me to believe they were just throwing matches at the wall and hoping something stuck.

And West of the Mississippi it seems like 99% of women think they should not flirt with a guy until they are dating.

When I first got to this city I wondered why I kept meeting strippers, I decided it was because they were the ones that would show interest...now it was to get you into their club another night, but still...

That being said, I did get number from one of the two single ladies tonight. Hopefully that will work out.

This post just continues to underline the incredible gender differences in dating.

A guy has to hunt and hunt and hunt and hunt.

A woman has to 'talk' (i.e. say yes to the advance). The trouble is when the guys who approach aren't suitably worthy, which, of course, means 'there aren't any guys out there'.

Amy...so a forward attractive woman has no trouble meeting people of either gender? You could knock me over with a feather...*

Some of us don't live in your world.

Allow me to clarify before I get flamed.

Since we are being informed by such people as Mystery, let's also look at Tyra Banks who put on a fat suit to try and live a different life. According to her, she met a widely different world then when she was a supermodel.

So a pretty forward woman is going to experience a different life then a short fat balding minority male.

Heck, as I've mentioned before, that lesbian who pretended to be a man was amazed at how different a reaction she got, simply by switching from a mannish woman to a man, though her features hadn't changed much (IIRC, she noted that there was much easier bonding between men then with women, though automatic acceptance was easier WITH women AS a woman)

Men like attractive women. Women aren't afraid of or on guard with women. It's like being the AB blood type; nice if you can get it, but not something a lot of people can change.

Jim: "If women asked men out, so men got to give the thumbs-up or thumbs-down and women had to deal with rejection time and time again, I can guarantee you'd see some women reacting with anger and insults even when a man politely and gently rejected their advances."

If men were harassed, followed, intimidated, and frequently touched without permission, perhaps they wouldn't always be nice when rejecting advances.

We can go around in this circle endlessly. Whether male or female, you have to decide if you want to respectful and polite unless somebody gives you a good reason not to be. I can't change biology. In the nature of things, more men have wanted me than I have wanted them. I can only control how I respond to it. I'm not rude or unkind unless somebody crosses the line, and even then I tend to withdraw/escape rather than escalate the nastiness.

In regard to the tall obsession, I'm 5'9" and men my height or shorter have rarely approached me. I'm not sure if it's because they don't want a taller woman or because they assume they stand no chance with a taller woman.

qdpsteve: "It's just that it's the height of frustrating to see so many guys go through the motions like I'm trying to do, stick their neck out there, and *still* find themselves getting ignored, used and abused by women who *claim* they're not snobs, they're looking for something real."

I understand and sympathize. Again, it goes both ways. There are also many men who claim to be "looking for something real" when they are really just looking for sex without responsibility. Men and women are different in some fundamental ways, so there is always going to be some wrangling to meet somewhere in the middle.

Amy,

Thank you for the name of the book. I shall make a note.

Lizzie,

You are absolutely correct and there is a vast difference between vainly trying to find someone to say 'yes' and having two dozen 'yeses' to choose from, nay, thrust upon you.

So men's sympathy to your plight will be muted. Mind you, they don't have to be made up all the time and be twenty pounds underweight to be fashionable either, so I guess it evens out.

Worthit has it right. Live your life. If that doesn’t work then examine your life, very carefully. By life I mean attitude and behavior. Stop blaming the girls who say no, like The Former Banker and qdpsteve seem to do. Life isn’t fair. So what. The Pick Up Artists (PUAs) techniques might help a little for someone who already has it going. It isn’t going to help someone who hasn’t got things together. I am no George Clooney. Not by a long shot. A few years ago I was about 45, a little overweight, balding, graying, covered in back hair, driving a 10 year old Hyundai with over 100K miles, a hideous haircut, hadn’t been taught how to dress nicely yet, crooked teeth, deep in dept and recently laid off. I had no problem meeting premium women and getting phone numbers and dates. I didn’t use any of these PUA tricks. I was just myself. I smiled. I spoke to people, both genders. Just be happy. It is magnetic. Make no mistake; I got lots of rejection too. But I sucked it up and kept on smiling and was polite. I also had lots of women hit on me. I now have a wonderful girlfriend. She asked me out. She is one of the prettiest girls in our city. If you think being rich helps, it does, but not that much. If you think being handsome helps, it does, but not that much. If you think having status and power helps, it does, but not that much. Not being these things is not what keeps the girls away. It is you. Don’t be pushy, don’t be rude, don’t be creepy. Don’t complain about your Ex or your job. Actually don’t complain at all. Don’t be a braggart. Stop wanking about the rejection and be confident. Be interesting and positive. Do fun things. Make the best of what you have and they will flock to you.

Good article. I think it's good advice to men who want to meet women to try some sober "day game" at the supermarket, mall, or street. If you get good at picking up women at bars while drunk, it becomes your crutch, and alcohol is not a good crutch to have. This has happened to me. I'm at the point now where I can't really be affectionate if I'm not drunk.

I know that some guys manage to go to bars/clubs without drinking. Good for them.

He asked all 100 out, one said yes, and stood him up, but he overcame his fear of talking to women and asking women out.

Women don't have to overcome their fear of asking men out and being rejected (which, in my opinion, is much greater than the fear men have) because they know that men will do the asking.

men value women who are slightly out of reach, not women who run after them.

I have no doubt that some men only value women if they are slightly out of reach and that some men would turn down a woman who asked them out if even if they found her smart, funny, attractive and sexy.

But all men? Absolutely not. I'm a perfect example. How out of reach a woman is makes no difference whatsoever in her value to me.

Most men? I'm sure we differ on that. You obviously feel most men do. I'm not so sure.

To say that women don't have to overcome their fear...blah blah blah...is just silly. Again, women shouldn't be asking men out in the first place. Is everything in life the same for women and men?

Sorry, not silly at all. Rather it's the truth. Women are fearful (sometimes I think terrified is more like it) of extending themselves to a man and being turned down. But, as I noted above, women don't have to overcome that fear because they know that men will do the extending.

Happy Birthday to one of the top writers of all time, Jackie Collins!

I agree with your Advice Goddess Columns, excellent post.